Ideas and thoughts on weapon rank system being changed

[HillaryForPrison]

like a lot of people here, I'm a huge fire emblem fan, but there is an aspect of the series that I wish would change hopefully for the better.

I'm doing a no grind, no paralogues birthright run (except P.1 to get Mozu) before doing conquest and revelation, as we all know that in fire emblem after a unit promotes, its new weapon proficiency usually starts at E.

I never really did mind this before but after promoting my Hana into a master of arms, her two new weapon ranks were at E which made grinding those ranks tedious especially for classes like the master of arms, and in games such as conquest were there isn't much opportunity to increase weapon rank, it becomes even more tedious.

I talked about this with a friend who believes that a balance can be made were upon promoting, a unit would get a higher starting rank in their new weapons, this may vary from game to game or from to class to class, for example master of arms could start with a C in all new weapons and kinshi knights would get a D for naginata/yumi instead of starting with E in them.

what are your thoughts on this? do you think the weapon rank system is fine the way it is or should it change?

[Jotari]

Make it a resource management aspect by having ore liberal access to Arms Scrolls and a nerfed version that only boosts one weapon rank is probably the way to go IMO. If everything starts at C then it kind of defies the point of having E and D. Alternatively have specific training weapons that are weak and low rank but give massive boosts to weapon exp.

[Radiant Dragon]

Some earlier FE games actually did do exactly this. In Sacred Stones for example, many promoted classes had base weapon EXP equal to C for their primary weapon, and D for their secondary weapon. Heroes, for example, had a base C in Swords and D in Axes. So if you promoted Garcia (a Fighter) into a Hero, he would immediately start at C Swords.

In Shadow Dragon, you could actually gain and lose weapon EXP by reclassing to different promoted classes. For example, Heroes in Shadow Dragon have base D Swords, while Swordmasters have base C Swords. So if a character changes from a Hero into a Swordmaster, they might actually go up a rank due to the extra Sword rank EXP, and visa-versa if they go from Swordmaster to Hero. I'm honestly not sure why Awakening and Fates went the route of making all classes have zero base weapon EXP. Maybe to encourage grinding?

Edited June 14, 2016 by Radiant Dragon

[HillaryForPrison]

If everything starts at C then it kind of defies the point of having E and D.

I agree that not all rankings should start at C, I meant that only upon promotion would a class get a rank above E (not including characters that join at higher than that for certain weapons).

as I mentioned not all classes upon promotion should start at E, kinshi knights for example gain one new weapon proficiency so it would make sense they would start at E or D for that weapon, but classes like nohr noble, master of arms and dread fighters should start at least at a higher level in my opinion, since grinding for those new weapons becomes more tedious, which would make you question why promote to that class in the first place, of course in games like awakening and birthright, you can freely get max rankings by grinding, which is tedious, but in conquest for example, unless you make a huge effort to grind your weapons, its likely you won't reach anything above C, which likely won't help much in the endgame and how hard conquest can be in the first place, its also tedious as well.

the idea of using certain weapons that for example give 50% more weapon experience but are weak is a good one.

I'm honestly not sure why Awakening and Fates went the route of making all classes have zero base weapon EXP. Maybe to encourage grinding?

I can understand why awakening and birthright might have done it, since you grind endlessly in those games, but conquest and radiant dawn for example should have a system similar to sacred stones, which is weird considering in sacred stones you're allowed to grind outside the main campaign.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Retro-Remy

[Quintessence]

Imo they should assign base ranks to each promoted class. Classes locked to one weapon should have C as base rank while mixed classes should have D as base. And they'll gain each rank per class, however there should be a WEXP condition, in which each character has its registry per weapon, so if any character goes Sniper they will have a base C Bows, if they gain WEXP and reclass to Kinshi Knight or Bow Knight they will go back to D if said WEXP is lower than the required to be at C, else they'll keep their C rank.

[Tamanoir]

Does someone knows how Wapon Rank works in Fates ?

Another great thing in the GBA games was that some weapons gave more Wexp than others (the most famous being teh Devil Axe : 8 Exp per hit (multiplied by 2 if you killed the ennemy.)

​If Bronze gave, says 5 Wexp each time, it would give you another reason to use them after E Rank (I know Crit Evade, and Accuracy, but the joke weapons are better at this.) and then 3 for Iron, it would makes training far easier.

Imo they should assign base ranks to each promoted class. Classes locked to one weapon should have C as base rank while mixed classes should have D as base. And they'll gain each rank per class, however there should be a WEXP condition, in which each character has its registry per weapon, so if any character goes Sniper they will have a base C Bows, if they gain WEXP and reclass to Kinshi Knight or Bow Knight they will go back to D if said WEXP is lower than the required to be at C, else they'll keep their C rank.

That could be linked to the difference between max weapon Rank and actual rank (so E base when bases is B (or C) D whn A rank and C when S Rank.

[Shadow Mir]

Does someone knows how Wapon Rank works in Fates ?

Another great thing in the GBA games was that some weapons gave more Wexp than others (the most famous being teh Devil Axe : 8 Exp per hit (multiplied by 2 if you killed the ennemy.)

​If Bronze gave, says 5 Wexp each time, it would give you another reason to use them after E Rank (I know Crit Evade, and Accuracy, but the joke weapons are better at this.) and then 3 for Iron, it would makes training far easier.

That could be linked to the difference between max weapon Rank and actual rank (so E base when bases is B (or C) D whn A rank and C when S Rank.

Probably the same as Shadow Dragon and afterward (though it takes more swings to boost rank relative to those games). Also, what you said about the GBA games was only true in FE7 and FE8. And for what it's worth, Bronze weapons' inability to critical or trigger skills can help if you don't want to accidentally kill an enemy unit (can be particularly helpful in BR, where fragile units are a dime a dozen).

Edited June 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Caliban of Sycorax]

FE10 having the Discipline skill was probably the best way to help gain WEXP, especially for units that had several ranks to boost, such as Generals and Sages. With Discipline I was usually able to get Soren to B or so in Staves (enough to use Physic) and then S/SS for his tomes quite easily.

[NekoKnight]

Fates has some bothersome issues in regards to weapon exp, and I'm liking a lot of the solutions I'm reading here.

My ideal set up would have 3 elements.

1. If two base classes share a promotion path, those base classes would share their primary weapon. Fighter!Heroes, Mercenary!Bow Knights etc, are getting screwed because their primary weapon has a lower weapon rank cap.

2. Promoted classes would have a minimum of D-rank in all weapons they can use. Bronze weapons are terrible and it disincentivizes you to use your secondary weapon (lol Master Ninja with swords).

3. Brass weapons would be switched with "training" weapons which do low damage but give you a lot more weapon exp.

[Jotari]

Oh, I'd also make it so you get increased EXP for attacking with weapon triangle advantage. If you had frequent access to arms scrolls on two grades that can level up one or all weapons, training weapons, easy access to Discipline for all units, increased wexp on a kill and weapon triangle advantage, then training up weapon ranks would only be a matter of shifting your priorities slightly with certain units and managing your resources apropriately.

[Sylphid]

Fates has some bothersome issues in regards to weapon exp, and I'm liking a lot of the solutions I'm reading here.

My ideal set up would have 3 elements.

1. If two base classes share a promotion path, those base classes would share their primary weapon. Fighter!Heroes, Mercenary!Bow Knights etc, are getting screwed because their primary weapon has a lower weapon rank cap.

2. Promoted classes would have a minimum of D-rank in all weapons they can use. Bronze weapons are terrible and it disincentivizes you to use your secondary weapon (lol Master Ninja with swords).

3. Brass weapons would be switched with "training" weapons which do low damage but give you a lot more weapon exp.

I agree with 2 and 3, but not really with 1.

I would rather see promoted classes be able to max either one of their possible weapons rather than limit promotion paths like that. Then the possible rank cap on the other weapon (or weapons in case of those with 3 options) would be reduced.

I might be wrong, but didn't some FE game do exactly this?

[NekoKnight]

I agree with 2 and 3, but not really with 1.

I would rather see promoted classes be able to max either one of their possible weapons rather than limit promotion paths like that. Then the possible rank cap on the other weapon (or weapons in case of those with 3 options) would be reduced.

I might be wrong, but didn't some FE game do exactly this?

I wouldn't describe it as limiting, just better planned. Base classes would still have two promotion options but there wouldn't be a 'lesser' choice because of weapon rank caps. There are some alternative solutions (to the problems in Fates). One is to have custom weapon rank caps based on the base class, ex. a Fighter!Hero will A rank Axes and B rank Swords. This sounds reasonable, but if reclassing is an option, you'll still need class specific caps. Another option is letting you determine your own max rank (the GBA games did this, iirc) by whatever you reach first, but personally I prefer the ranks determined by the class to make classes more distinct (ex Hero and Blacksmith use the same weapons but their max rank is different).

Just my opinion. So long as the character can max rank their primary weapon, it's a step forward.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I wouldn't describe it as limiting, just better planned. Base classes would still have two promotion options but there wouldn't be a 'lesser' choice because of weapon rank caps. There are some alternative solutions (to the problems in Fates). One is to have custom weapon rank caps based on the base class, ex. a Fighter!Hero will A rank Axes and B rank Swords. This sounds reasonable, but if reclassing is an option, you'll still need class specific caps. Another option is letting you determine your own max rank (the GBA games did this, iirc) by whatever you reach first, but personally I prefer the ranks determined by the class to make classes more distinct (ex Hero and Blacksmith use the same weapons but their max rank is different).

Just my opinion. So long as the character can max rank their primary weapon, it's a step forward.

Personally, I actually really like the system of "unpromoted units with different weapons" being able to share the same promoted class. Like, if two axe-users share a promotion, it should be axe-locked (such as Berserker), because honestly, where else are you going to fit it? Though, I also think that, in a perfect system, every promoted class has exactly two "feeder" classes. Meanwhile, a Mercenary and a Fighter both promoting to Hero offers a sense of "synergy" or "linkage", as the Hero can be a middle-ground class between axe-user and sword-user. But! I do agree that it sucks promoting into a class whose specialty weapon is not your base one. A great example is Arthur - personality and story wise, he deserves to be a hero; but, he stays stuck with B-Axes as one.

I do like your proposal of Fighter!Hero and Mercenary!Hero having different weapon rank caps. And it could work with reclassing, since every unit that can reclass to "Hero" also had either "Mercenary" or "Fighter" in their reclass set, even if they can't reach it due to being promoted. The one awkward situation I can think of is a unit with both "Mercenary" and "Fighter" lines having access to two different versions of the "Hero" class (LOL, reclassing from "Hero" to "Hero"). Although I think my preferred system is as follows:

Promoted units with only one weapon type (Swordmaster, Berserker, Spear Master, Sorceror, Witch, Lodestar, Sniper) have C as a base, S as a cap.

Those with two weapon types either have base-D and cap-A in both (Hero, Oni Chieftain, most classes in the game) or base-E, cap-B in one and base-C, cap-S in the other (reserved for Master Ninja and Butler/Maid).

Those with three weapon types (Dread Fighter, Great Knight, Master-of-Arms) have base-E and cap-B in each weapon type.

Why? It always seemed a bit skewed to me that, say, Great Knights can have the same weapon ranks as their Paladin AND General comrades. Like, I think weapon diversity is great, but it should come at a greater cost to rank. And I'm fine with GK's and MoA's being unable to A-Rank their primary weapon - the whole point of each class is diversity over specialization, and each one would necessarily have reclass access to a class that can A-Rank (either Paladin or General, and either Swordmaster or Merchant). The one flaw to this system, I admit, is that classes like Hero and Blacksmith, or Adventurer and Priestess, are no longer diversified by their weapon caps. Just my idea, what do you think?

[Gradivus.]

Promoted units with only one weapon type (Swordmaster, Berserker, Spear Master, Sorceror, Witch, Lodestar, Sniper) have C as a base, S as a cap.

Those with two weapon types either have base-D and cap-A in both (Hero, Oni Chieftain, most classes in the game) or base-E, cap-B in one and base-C, cap-S in the other (reserved for Master Ninja and Butler/Maid).

Those with three weapon types (Dread Fighter, Great Knight, Master-of-Arms) have base-E and cap-B in each weapon type.

Why? It always seemed a bit skewed to me that, say, Great Knights can have the same weapon ranks as their Paladin AND General comrades. Like, I think weapon diversity is great, but it should come at a greater cost to rank. And I'm fine with GK's and MoA's being unable to A-Rank their primary weapon - the whole point of each class is diversity over specialization, and each one would necessarily have reclass access to a class that can A-Rank (either Paladin or General, and either Swordmaster or Merchant). The one flaw to this system, I admit, is that classes like Hero and Blacksmith, or Adventurer and Priestess, are no longer diversified by their weapon caps. Just my idea, what do you think?

Agreed. As for the second paragraph, I think classes with same weapon types should be differentiated via stats and skills or one should just be omitted. Preferably the latter since they'd probably stay redundant. Master Ninjas, if Shuriken-type weapons stay, should also be able to reach S rank Shuriken because they're supposed to be the Shuriken-specialized class. Can probably just take the sword rank away from them, they don't need it.

I also think it doesn't make sense for classes with the same name to have different caps depending on what they promoted from. That's a superfluous attempt at diversifying them that wouldn't make for an interesting difference in practice.

(S rank should also stop being so hard to reach, I never reached it in Fates except with units who have exceptionally good EP)

Edited June 19, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Tamanoir]

Personally, I actually really like the system of "unpromoted units with different weapons" being able to share the same promoted class. Like, if two axe-users share a promotion, it should be axe-locked (such as Berserker), because honestly, where else are you going to fit it? Though, I also think that, in a perfect system, every promoted class has exactly two "feeder" classes. Meanwhile, a Mercenary and a Fighter both promoting to Hero offers a sense of "synergy" or "linkage", as the Hero can be a middle-ground class between axe-user and sword-user. But! I do agree that it sucks promoting into a class whose specialty weapon is not your base one. A great example is Arthur - personality and story wise, he deserves to be a hero; but, he stays stuck with B-Axes as one.

I do like your proposal of Fighter!Hero and Mercenary!Hero having different weapon rank caps. And it could work with reclassing, since every unit that can reclass to "Hero" also had either "Mercenary" or "Fighter" in their reclass set, even if they can't reach it due to being promoted. The one awkward situation I can think of is a unit with both "Mercenary" and "Fighter" lines having access to two different versions of the "Hero" class (LOL, reclassing from "Hero" to "Hero"). Although I think my preferred system is as follows:

Promoted units with only one weapon type (Swordmaster, Berserker, Spear Master, Sorceror, Witch, Lodestar, Sniper) have C as a base, S as a cap.

Those with two weapon types either have base-D and cap-A in both (Hero, Oni Chieftain, most classes in the game) or base-E, cap-B in one and base-C, cap-S in the other (reserved for Master Ninja and Butler/Maid).

Those with three weapon types (Dread Fighter, Great Knight, Master-of-Arms) have base-E and cap-B in each weapon type.

Why? It always seemed a bit skewed to me that, say, Great Knights can have the same weapon ranks as their Paladin AND General comrades. Like, I think weapon diversity is great, but it should come at a greater cost to rank. And I'm fine with GK's and MoA's being unable to A-Rank their primary weapon - the whole point of each class is diversity over specialization, and each one would necessarily have reclass access to a class that can A-Rank (either Paladin or General, and either Swordmaster or Merchant). The one flaw to this system, I admit, is that classes like Hero and Blacksmith, or Adventurer and Priestess, are no longer diversified by their weapon caps. Just my idea, what do you think?

Since A Rank isn't that usefull to begin with, it wouldn't besuch a big problem.

And it's pretty wierd to have Paladin as the only Class with 2 A Rank.

Instead of having the Cap linked to promotion, which poses more problem than it solves, something interresting (though it doesn't solve anything) could be Weapon Rank Cap linked to unit, liek the other kind of caps. But I prefer your system better.

[Quintessence]

Question is: should legendary weapons be restricted to certain classes or should they be used by whomever has the skill to do so? Translated question is: GBA/Tellius rank system vs Awakening/Fates system?

[NekoKnight]

Promoted units with only one weapon type (Swordmaster, Berserker, Spear Master, Sorceror, Witch, Lodestar, Sniper) have C as a base, S as a cap.

Those with two weapon types either have base-D and cap-A in both (Hero, Oni Chieftain, most classes in the game) or base-E, cap-B in one and base-C, cap-S in the other (reserved for Master Ninja and Butler/Maid).

Those with three weapon types (Dread Fighter, Great Knight, Master-of-Arms) have base-E and cap-B in each weapon type.

I don't think the three weapon type units need to be nerfed. They might have more options AFTER they cap all their weapons, until then you are spreading yourself thin on weapon exp. In the current game, you pretty much won't be getting your Master of Arms even close to capped without arms scroll usage. A B B is a fair spread of weapon ranks to me, Also, there is no reason for promoted classes to suffer through E rank (lol). It's just a void that must be grinded through before getting usable weapons.

[Azz]

Question is: should legendary weapons be restricted to certain classes or should they be used by whomever has the skill to do so? Translated question is: GBA/Tellius rank system vs Awakening/Fates system?

IMO that depends. If re-classing is a thing, then yes. If not, no. I personally prefer the GBA and Tellius rank system over the current one, but I do think it is better for single-weapon locked promoted classes to be the only classes with access to the S rank weapons (Unless they do an RD on it where it is your base weapon that can only get an S).

[Sylphid]

I wouldn't describe it as limiting, just better planned. Base classes would still have two promotion options but there wouldn't be a 'lesser' choice because of weapon rank caps. There are some alternative solutions (to the problems in Fates). One is to have custom weapon rank caps based on the base class, ex. a Fighter!Hero will A rank Axes and B rank Swords. This sounds reasonable, but if reclassing is an option, you'll still need class specific caps. Another option is letting you determine your own max rank (the GBA games did this, iirc) by whatever you reach first, but personally I prefer the ranks determined by the class to make classes more distinct (ex Hero and Blacksmith use the same weapons but their max rank is different).

Just my opinion. So long as the character can max rank their primary weapon, it's a step forward.

Perhaps limiting was a bit wrong choice of words, but what I meant was basically what Shanty's said about liking how two unpromoted units with different weapons can promote to same class. (So I guess you could call it limiting creativity or whatever)

I do agree that it would be better if one of the base classes wasn't weaker than the other due to starting weapons and limited caps though, definitely. I don't think not having class-specific weapon rank caps reduces distinction between classes that much, since skills and stats exist anyways (I never even noticed Blackshmith and hero have different caps until you pointed it out).

I get where you're coming from with that though. It really just falls into me valuing ability to choose your main weapon in a class over the little bit of distinction we could get with class-specific ones (and to be fair, it would be other way if there were less ways to make the classes distinct in the series).

The idea of caps being different based on the base class could work too I guess, haven't really thought about it.

The one awkward situation I can think of is a unit with both "Mercenary" and "Fighter" lines having access to two different versions of the "Hero" class (LOL, reclassing from "Hero" to "Hero"). Although I think my preferred system is as follows:

Easily fixed by putting in a priority list. For example

base class > natural reclass option > reclass through marriage > reclass through A support

So a mercenary able to reclass to Fighter would always base their hero caps on Mercenary, and so on

[Shadow Mir]

Question is: should legendary weapons be restricted to certain classes or should they be used by whomever has the skill to do so? Translated question is: GBA/Tellius rank system vs Awakening/Fates system?

The problem I have here is you're lumping games with different weapon rank systems together (out of those, only FE7-9 could claim to share the same weapon rank system, and even that isn't entirely true because Sages in PoR capped staff rank at B).

Edited June 20, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Quintessence]

The problem I have here is you're lumping games with different weapon rank systems together (out of those, only FE7-9 could claim to share the same weapon rank system, and even that isn't entirely true because Sages in PoR capped staff rank at B).

Half true, half false. Let's take S and SS weapons.

Regal Blade, Durandal, Audhulma, Vague Katti: any viable unit can use it. Sword Paladins, Gold Knights, Swordmaster/Trueblades, etc.

Who can use Excalibur in Fates? Only sorcerers (or Witches).

The idea is comparing whether you have to be certain class to use legendary weapons or be 'any class' and have access to them. (True that PoR Falcos and Generals can't use Vague Katti iirc).

also why would you want your sage to cap staves when magic is better and you have Mist or Rhys?

[Gradivus.]

also why would you want your sage to cap staves when magic is better and you have Mist or Rhys?

why would you want a needless and random cap just because other units are better at it?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Shadow Mir]

Half true, half false. Let's take S and SS weapons.

Regal Blade, Durandal, Audhulma, Vague Katti: any viable unit can use it. Sword Paladins, Gold Knights, Swordmaster/Trueblades, etc.

Who can use Excalibur in Fates? Only sorcerers (or Witches).

The idea is comparing whether you have to be certain class to use legendary weapons or be 'any class' and have access to them. (True that PoR Falcos and Generals can't use Vague Katti iirc).

also why would you want your sage to cap staves when magic is better and you have Mist or Rhys?

The big reason I'm calling you out is because you lumped Awakening and Fates together in terms of weapon systems despite the fact that anyone can use the legendaries in Awakening (except Goetia, which was only usable by Dark Mages and Sorcerers, and the Sol Katti, which was Myrmidons and Swordmasters only), as opposed to Fates.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Quintessence]

Ah I see, whoops, I derped there.

edit: Then I guess it's GBA, Tellius, Awakening vs Fates

Edited June 20, 2016 by Quintessence