Behaviorism and Astrology

[Rezzy]

I had a random thought today (as is usual). I don't really believe in astrology, I just find it interesting to read about, in the same vein as mythology, but what if astrology had some basis in fact, but not for the reasons that astrologists believed with the planets aligning and whatnot? It would be more of a behaviorist explanation.

What if the time of year someone was born had a subtle influence in their future personality? In today's age, it may not be quite as drastic, but for much of human history, a typical day was very different in winter versus summer. What if during that very formative first year or so that the baby developed, the amount of extra food, playtime outside, people available to socialize with nothing better to do, etc, had a subtle influence on future personality of the developing child? Sadly, it would be almost impossible to test, but I just found it an interesting hypothesis.

[Phoenix Wright]

well, what's the hypothesis?

also, you're taking the stars out of the equation, so i don't really know where astrology fits here.

[Rezzy]

well, what's the hypothesis?

also, you're taking the stars out of the equation, so i don't really know where astrology fits here.

I guess my hypothesis is that the time of year someone was born influences their personality.

It's not Astrology in the strict sense, but the end result is the same, saying Leos, or those born late July to mid August will demonstrate similar personality.

[Rapier]

But if twins are different, doesn't it send astrology down the drain? If the alignment of the stars influences someone's personality and destiny, but two people born at the same time, from the same parents and under the same circunstances have different personalities and destinies, there is a blatant contradiction.

In fact, iirc it was used by Carl Sagan to show how astrology is probably false (because there is no way to definitely prove astrology is false, since it requires negative proof, which is something contradictory by its own definition... you can't use something that does not exist as evidence. However, just like the example above, there are several good reasons to believe it is false).

Also, people undergoing similar experiences don't necessarily behave or develop the same way. The environment is just another factor on someone's [psychological] development, and not the defining factor of someone's development.

[twice]

A lot of things go into what may influence someones personality (well according to astrology), like the degrees at time of birth and what each of their signs are for sun, moon, rising, planets and etc...They all correspond with each other forming an overall result. So in a sense, yeah the time of year could be an influence on who we are as individuals. But many other things could change that, depending on their social life/what have you. I guess so.

Astrology is a pretty interesting subject to me. And it's fairly accurate at times but I wouldn't take it 100% serious lol, just for fun.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Jin

[Rezzy]

Twins can be different, and I agree that there's the whole nature vs nurture debate. It would just be interesting if the time of year one was born played a part in personality at all. If it did, it would likely be more related to some of the reason above, rather than the traditional view of astrology.

I just used Astrology as the foundation of my idea, since it's the only thing I know that tries to equate personality with the time of year one was born.

I also think personality is too complex to be decided by any one factor, that's why I lean toward saying influence, rather than determine.

[Sunwoo]

Astrology is bullshit on the basis that there are actually thirteen zodiacal signs instead of twelve. The sun also passes through the constellation Ophiuchus, and apparently the sun spends more time in Ophiuchus than in Scorpio or something. That's another thing: the sun doesn't spend equal amounts of time in each of the constellations so the basis that we use in astrology is already faulty.

Not to mention that because the Earth "wobbles", we have a different north star now than we did over 2000 years ago when the astrological signs were first determined. Which means that the dates don't even align today compared to when they were first construed years ago.

I don't buy the idea that the time when someone was born determines anything about their personality. For every person who does fall under personality traits suggested for that time, there is another person who won't. It's a bit of fun, but I don't think that there's any serious basis for it.

[Rezzy]

Astrology is bullshit on the basis that there are actually thirteen zodiacal signs instead of twelve. The sun also passes through the constellation Ophiuchus, and apparently the sun spends more time in Ophiuchus than in Scorpio or something. That's another thing: the sun doesn't spend equal amounts of time in each of the constellations so the basis that we use in astrology is already faulty.

Not to mention that because the Earth "wobbles", we have a different north star now than we did over 2000 years ago when the astrological signs were first determined. Which means that the dates don't even align today compared to when they were first construed years ago.

I don't buy the idea that the time when someone was born determines anything about their personality. For every person who does fall under personality traits suggested for that time, there is another person who won't. It's a bit of fun, but I don't think that there's any serious basis for it.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my intention, but I don't think the alignment of the stars has anything to do with any cause of personality. The seasons as we have them now are roughly the same as 2000 years ago. When they switched to the Gregorian calendar, they shifted it so the seasons matched again. I don't know enough about astronomy of yesteryear to know if the constellations have shifted since then, but as we both agree, they wouldn't have any real effect.

[twice]

Astrology is bullshit on the basis that there are actually thirteen zodiacal signs instead of twelve.

It's sad people tend to forget ophiuchus :/ (it's the coolest constellation imo)

[Sunwoo]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my intention, but I don't think the alignment of the stars has anything to do with any cause of personality. The seasons as we have them now are roughly the same as 2000 years ago. When they switched to the Gregorian calendar, they shifted it so the seasons matched again. I don't know enough about astronomy of yesteryear to know if the constellations have shifted since then, but as we both agree, they wouldn't have any real effect.

And I'm saying, in my third paragraph, that if there's anything in this world that determines what a person's personality is, I don't believe that the time of year a person is born has anything to do with it.

[Rezzy]

And I'm saying, in my third paragraph, that if there's anything in this world that determines what a person's personality is, I don't believe that the time of year a person is born has anything to do with it.

Very well, and maybe it doesn't. I just want to make sure everyone knows what my hypothesis is and is not. I just wanted to see it if passed the sniff test for anybody.

[Naughx]

A bit like the butterfly effect? Is this what you meant?

Edited June 19, 2016 by Naughx

[Rezzy]

A bit like the butterfly effect? Is this what you meant?

In a way, with babies getting similar experiences around the same ages by being born around the same time. Say a summer baby gets more social attention around the six month mark because everyone's inside for winter, because they have nothing else to do. That example would have more affect 2000 years ago than today, however.

[Phoenix Wright]

I guess my hypothesis is that the time of year someone was born influences their personality.

It's not Astrology in the strict sense, but the end result is the same, saying Leos, or those born late July to mid August will demonstrate similar personality.

it isn't really astrology at all. which is fine, bc astrology is bs anyway.

it is perhaps an interesting question, but we can easily cast doubt on the hypothesis: i googled "march 19 birthdays" and got this as the top result. would you say that there are any meaningful, core identical facets of any of their personalities? just pick out 2 people you know of

Edited June 19, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

I get what you're trying to say.

Perhaps June 15 of one year was rainy, while June 15 three years later had record heat. Maybe a parasite killed off a certain type of crop during one year. Even if two different babies have the same gestational period, date-wise, they're still going to have different environments in which they were conceived/raised.

[peener weener]

interestingly enough it's been hypothesized that birth month does influence the way a child develops but not in the way you proposed. an article i read suggested that the amount of sunlight the mother got during the child's development in their belly directly impacted the child's development in ways that the article wasn't totally aware of but it implied they were more sickly and frail if the child developed in the winter months (being born in summer) and more healthy and athletic if the child developed in the summer months (being born in winter). i could find the article if i tried but i just thought it was an interesting little thing

[Rezzy]

interestingly enough it's been hypothesized that birth month does influence the way a child develops but not in the way you proposed. an article i read suggested that the amount of sunlight the mother got during the child's development in their belly directly impacted the child's development in ways that the article wasn't totally aware of but it implied they were more sickly and frail if the child developed in the winter months (being born in summer) and more healthy and athletic if the child developed in the summer months (being born in winter). i could find the article if i tried but i just thought it was an interesting little thing

That's one thing I didn't think of, but it's another factor that could contribute. Kids just develop so much in the first year, I was curious if there were any general trends that might lead to similar personality traits.

I'd be interested in seeing that article.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Rezzy

[sirmola]

That's one thing I didn't think of, but it's another factor that could contribute. Kids just develop so much in the first year, I was curious if there were any general trends that might lead to similar personality traits.

I'd be interested in seeing that article.

I just looked up this concept and found a study that found that there is some (fairly slight) correlation between personality and average ambient temperature (but not sunlight). This seems to be because ambient temperature changes maternal blood circulation in utero. However, there is at least one other study showing no effect of birth month on personality. Unfortionatly, both articles are behind the "scienceDirect" paywall and may thus not be avalible to you (unless you are in university, or are in an alumni association that gives you that benefit, or your job pays for it, or something).

Here is citation and abstract information from the two articles:

Peter Hartmann, Martin Reuter, Helmuth Nyborg, The relationship between date of birth and individual differences in personality and general intelligence: A large-scale study, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 40, Issue 7, May 2006, Pages 1349-1362, ISSN 0191-8869, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2005.11.017.(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886905004046)Abstract: We investigated the relationship between date of birth and individual differences in personality and intelligence in two large samples. The first sample consisted of 4000+ middle-aged male subjects from the Vietnam Experience Study; personality was measured by the MMPI items converted to EPQ (scales) and a large battery of cognitive tests were factored to derive general intelligence, g. The second sample consisted of 11,000+ young adults from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth from 1979. g was extracted from the ten subtests of the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.In no cases did date of birth relate to individual differences in personality or general intelligence.A further goal was to test Eysenck’s notion of possible relationships between date of birth and the popular Sun Signs in astrology. No support could be found for such associations.We conclude that the present large-scale study provides no evidence for the existence of relevant relationships between date of birth and individual differences in personality and general intelligence.Keywords: Astrology; Intelligence; Personality; Date of birth; Seasonal variation

Mitsuhiro Kamata, Akihito Suzuki, Yoshihiko Matsumoto, Hitoshi Togashi, Koichi Otani, Effect of month of birth on personality traits of healthy Japanese, European Psychiatry, Volume 24, Issue 2, March 2009, Pages 86-90, ISSN 0924-9338, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.eurpsy.2008.10.006.(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933808016477)Abstract: The effect of month of birth on personality traits was investigated in 595 healthy Japanese. Personality traits were evaluated by the Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI). Statistical analyses were conducted in two steps. Firstly, months of the year were divided according to ambient temperature or photoperiod, and TCI scores were compared between month groups by analysis of covariance (ANCOVA) with age as a covariate. Secondly, multiple regression analysis was performed with TCI scores as dependent variables and ambient temperature and photoperiod at birth month and age as independent variables. Both analyses showed that higher ambient temperature at birth month was related to higher scores of self-directedness and persistence in females. Also, higher ambient temperature at birth month was related to lower body mass index (BMI) in females. These results suggest that month of birth affects self-directedness and persistence in healthy Japanese females, and these effects may be mediated by BMI changes associated with ambient temperature at birth month.Keywords: Ambient temperature; Month of birth; Personality; Photoperiod; Temperament and Character Inventory

Edited June 20, 2016 by sirmola

[Rezzy]

I just looked up this concept and found a study that found that there is some (fairly slight) correlation between personality and average ambient temperature (but not sunlight). This seems to be because ambient temperature changes maternal blood circulation in utero. However, there is at least one other study showing no effect of birth month on personality. Unfortionatly, both articles are behind the "scienceDirect" paywall and may thus not be avalible to you (unless you are in university, or are in an alumni association that gives you that benefit, or your job pays for it, or something).

Here is citation and abstract information from the two articles:

Thanks, I'll try to look at that when I get the chance.

Having these articles behind a pay wall has always rubbed me the wrong way. I love me some capitalism, but most of these institutions get funding from taxes in one way or the other, and the fact that they can patent any practical application that their research bears fruit to makes me annoyed when they want $35 just to read their article.

I was trying to get a bunch of articles for work a few weeks ago, and a majority of the articles I wanted to look up were behind a $35 pay wall. A piece. Yeah, I'm not going to dish out over $300 just to flesh out my bibliography, I guess I'll just remain ignorant.

[Skynstein]

Well, astrology is actually irrelevant to the thread... Rezzy brought it up only as an example.

Twins are born within minutes of each other and these minutes can mean some difference in astrological terms. Nevertheless, the differences between twins don't have any grounds in astrology, of course.

I think there could be a behavioral explanation but not necessarily related to the climate, especially because people react differently to it.