Why are all the characters so Tsundere?

[Water Mage]

How? I look at Takumi, and all I see is a big ball of Tsundere. Jealous of his siblings, jealous of his comrades, jealous of his own damn son...

You're not seeing the bigger picture here, Takumi struggled to get where he his, and yet there otthers like Ryoma and Kiragi who are naturally talented. It's only natual to feel jealous and envious.

Humans get jealous over petty things. It's their nature.

All there is to this kid is envy. It's boring. Characters don't automatically become human just because they express envy towards something or other. Nor do they become human because they get turned into a big dumb rage monster.

Envy isn't the only thing, but as I said before everyone feels envy.

Didn't you ever felt jealous? Didn't you ever felt envy over something petty?

A lot of people do, and that's why people like Takumi. They can relate to him.

And yet, there's much more to Takumi than envy.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Water Mage

[Alandrage]

I do agree that the Azura support isn't all that much. Although the S-Support talks about why Takumi was so cold to Azura.

"I'm upset at you because my mom died" seems like a really cheap excuse.

The Elise support is him not wanting to spend time with Elise, a Nohrian Princess, who he thinks he shouldn't spend time with. He's not tsun. He's rude towards Elise He then comes back to apologies for it, and then decides it's fine to spend time with her. The S-Support itself just has closure.

It's never said that he avoids her because she's from Nohr. She just asks him to play with her, and he just acts stubborn.

Being jealous isn't being Tsundere.

Yes it is.

If he was tsun, he would be acting coldly, but he wouldn't be outright rude and rejectful to them.

Er, yes he would. The entire point of a Tsundere is that they act cold, rude and rejectful towards everyone.

[eclipse]

The C-Support specifically. Oh, and Seconded!

Please explain why Saizo/Beruka's C support is the best support in that chain.

Edited July 30, 2016 by eclipse

[Dark Sage]

Please explain why Saizo/Beruka's C support is the best support in that chain.

I can tell you one thing, I hate that whenever that support chain is brought up, the C rank is the only[/n] thing talked about while the rest of the chain (which is a really good one) is ignored. Plus the joke's about as funny as a Dane Cook album.

Sorry for being butthurt over this, but I'll be a happier man if that "...." "...." joke would just die already.

[Emerson]

"I'm upset at you because my mom died" seems like a really cheap excuse.

It's never said that he avoids her because she's from Nohr. She just asks him to play with her, and he just acts stubborn.

Yes it is.

Er, yes he would. The entire point of a Tsundere is that they act cold, rude and rejectful towards everyone.

Ok, lets go one by one on these.

-Takumi was cold towards Azura because Takumi loved her, and Azura always talked about being brother and sister.

-While it's not explicitly stated, it's a very easy conclusion to come to when looking at Takumi's actions in the story and this line:

Takumi: I can't believe it. This is an incredible opportuni— No. No, no, no, NO! I swore I would not associate with you! Stop doing this! Here, you can keep your books!

-No, a tsundere likes another person, but doesn't want to outwardly show it.

- Tsunderes are typically like, "I did something that was nice to you, b-but I didn't mean to or anything!" I'm not saying that they specifically talk like that, I'm saying they act like that. Takumi acts fully and wholly cold and resentful towards other characters, until he either needs to or decides to break out of his shell.

You're not seeing the bigger picture here, Takumi struggled to get where he his, and yet there otthers like Ryoma and Kiragi who are naturally talented. It's only natual to feel jealous and envious.

Humans get jealous over petty things. It's their nature.

Envy isn't the only thing, but as I said before everyone feels envy.

Didn't you ever felt jealous? Didn't you ever felt envy over something petty?

A lot of people do, and that's why people like Takumi. They can relate to him.

And yet, there's much more to Takumi than envy.

Thank you! That was on the tip of my tongue for so long!

And I agree with the rest of this.

[Alandrage]

[under Editing]

Edited July 30, 2016 by Alandrage

[Emerson]

That's shallow.

Are you saying being envious is shallow? Because, if I may say so, that's shallow.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Emerson]

I can tell you one thing, I hate that whenever that support chain is brought up, the C rank is the only[/n] thing talked about while the rest of the chain (which is a really good one) is ignored. Plus the joke's about as funny as a Dane Cook album.

Sorry for being butthurt over this, but I'll be a happier man if that "...." "...." joke would just die already.

I agree that the English C support is dumb, and I agree that the rest of the support is really good. The C support in the Jpn version was just them addressing each other for the most part, and the English may be a reference to the Jaffar/Rath support.

Either way, I do kinda wish we had the normal C support. Them silently coming to some understanding is weird...'

Also, sorry for the double post. They just addressed two different topics. (And I don't think I can delete this now...)

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Alandrage]

You're not seeing the bigger picture here, Takumi struggled to get where he his, and yet there otthers like Ryoma and Kiragi who are naturally talented. It's only natual to feel jealous and envious.

Everyone in this group has trained and struggled, though, and they all have some kind of natural talent. Why does angsting about it make Takumi so special?

Didn't you ever felt jealous? Didn't you ever felt envy over something petty?

A lot of people do, and that's why people like Takumi. They can relate to him.

So just because a fictional character feels jealous of something, people like him? Even though he doesn't actually have a clear reason for being like that?

And yet, there's much more to Takumi than envy.

Like what?

-Takumi was cold towards Azura because Takumi loved her, and Azura always talked about being brother and sister.

So he was being Tsundere, then? Also, S support, so he could potentially be in love with everybody in the group.

-While it's not explicitly stated, it's a very easy conclusion to come to when looking at Takumi's actions in the story and this line:

Where does he swear not to talk to her?

Also, what story actions?

-No, a tsundere likes another person, but doesn't want to outwardly show it.

That only works if they have a reason to be tsundere. If they're just arbitrarily Tsundere towards people while other characters with the same mindset and backstory act just fine, they have no reason for it.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Alandrage

[Emerson]

So just because a fictional character feels jealous of something, people like him? Even though he doesn't actually have a clear reason for being like that?

So he was being Tsundere, then? Also, S support, so he could potentially be in love with everybody in the group.

Where does he swear not to talk to her?

Also, what story actions?

That only works if they have a reason to be tsundere. If they're just arbitrarily Tsundere towards people while other characters with the same mindset and backstory act just fine, they have no reason for it.

-People can relate to being jealous of others. Thats why people like him, as they see a bit of themselves in the character. Some don't like Takumi. It's subjective.

-No, he was cold to Azura when she talked about them being family ala brother and sister. This is explicitly stated by Takumi himself. Again, you're misunderstanding what a tsundere is. Just because someone is cold to another doesn't make them a tsundere. They ACT cold, but they really want to get close to the other person or are denying that they do, either to themselves or the other person.

From the S Support:

Takumi: Azura, I have to be honest. I never wanted you as a sister. I've loved you since we first met. That's why, when you talked about us being a family, I was so rude to you.

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Takumi_Azura

-If you actually go read the support, he says that exact line (I copy-pasted it) in the B support.

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Takumi_Elise

Ok, ignore the story point. That was a bit dumb on my end.

-Like I said, they're tsundere because they like the other person, but don't currently want them to think they do. I, again implore you to go read the Selena and Keaton A and S support. It speaks more about this than I can.

Everyone in this group has trained and struggled, though, and they all have some kind of natural talent. Why does angsting about it make Takumi so special?

I wanna touch on this as well.

Kiragi, having less bow training and using the Fujin Yumi for the first time, is able to easily use it with great accuracy. Takumi feels inferior to his own son due to how easily he was able to use what he had to train with for years.

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Takumi_Kiragi(PC)

I read his support with Ryoma, and it seems to be more about him wanting to be able to protect his brother, rather than have his brother protect him.

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Takumi_Ryoma

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Alandrage]

People can relate to being jealous of others. Thats why people like him, as they see a bit of themselves in the character.

Again, cheap.

Some don't like Takumi. It's subjective.

Way to be dismissive of people disliking him.

-No, he was cold to Azura when she talked about them being family ala brother and sister.

This is explicitly stated by Takumi himself.

Again, you're misunderstanding what a tsundere is.

Just because someone is cold to another doesn't make them a tsundere.

They ACT cold, but they really want to get close to the other person or are denying that they do, either to themselves or the other person.

From the S Support: *snip*

So basically, Takumi acted Tsundere towards Azura because he wanted to marry her the instant he saw her, and she mentioned in general terms about becoming family with the Hoshido royals?!

That's just...ridiculous.

Also, if he loved her, does that mean he doesn't actually love any of the other people he can S-support? I really dislike how S-supports mean no situation can ever be truly resolved.

-If you actually go read the support, he says that exact line (I copy-pasted it) in the B support.

Yeah, I snipped it. Sorry for not mentioning it.

But he never actually says why he's decided not to interact with Elise.

-Like I said, they're tsundere because they like the other person, but don't currently want them to think they do.

Again, why? Why do they insist on yelling at them instead of just hiding or admitting their crush and moving on with their life? Oboro seems perfectly fine admitting she has a crush on Takumi.

I, again implore you to go read the Selena and Keaton A and S support. It speaks more about this than I can.

How does two Tsunderes being blatantly Tsundere mean Takumi isn't Tsundere?

Edited July 30, 2016 by Alandrage

[Dark Sage]

I agree that the English C support is dumb, and I agree that the rest of the support is really good. The C support in the Jpn version was just them addressing each other for the most part, and the English may be a reference to the Jaffar/Rath support.

Either way, I do kinda wish we had the normal C support. Them silently coming to some understanding is weird...'

Also, sorry for the double post. They just addressed two different topics. (And I don't think I can delete this now...)

I don't think it's a reference to Rath/Jaffar because that support does not exist. People make jokes about what it would be like in theory but that's about it. In any case, the Benny/Beruka support was much closer to that to begin with, so it's just weird and redundant.

Also man, I forget sometimes how much some people hate Takumi because this is hilarious. A character isn't bad just because he's a dick sometimes. I really dislike how aggressive Takumi can be at times though because it's often done just to make Corrin look better, and fuck that.

[Party Moth]

I agree that the English C support is dumb, and I agree that the rest of the support is really good. The C support in the Jpn version was just them addressing each other for the most part, and the English may be a reference to the Jaffar/Rath support.

Just wanted to post for correction's sake, but the Jaffar/Rath support people keep linking is a joke/troll support written by a fan to mock how both characters use an unnecessary amount of ellipses in a game already riddled with them. It's not an actual official support conversation. Unless you meant that Treehouse was referencing an old fandom joke.

Anyway, people find Takumi both aggravating and relatable due to his inferiority complex, which stems from a collection of factors that include his distress about being less "talented" than others in his family and having to work harder to reach similar benchmarks (as others have mentioned). His distrust of Azura stems from losing his father at a very young age, molding his hatred of Nohr to develop into a growing symbol of the force that takes his family away. Corrin's return (and subsequent showering of praise from their siblings) as well as losing his mother in just an instant are reminders of how weak he really is when all his efforts to grow stronger and protect his family are literally dispelled in a few days. This makes him into an occasionally irrational, lashing-out but ultimately somewhat relatable character.

I hesitate to call that "tsundere", as tsunderes tend to be characterized as compensating for insecurities by coming across as haughty and over-justifying seemingly mundane actions because of a fear of intimacy with other people. Tsunderes are petty in a different manner than Takumi's almost childlike spite.

Edit: Ninja'd by Dark Sage on the Jaffar/Rath comment.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Party Moth

[Alandrage]

I don't think it's a reference to Rath/Jaffar because that support does not exist. People make jokes about what it would be like in theory but that's about it. In any case, the Benny/Beruka support was much closer to that to begin with, so it's just weird and redundant.

It's pretty clear that that C support was a glitch, though. Not intentional.

Also man, I forget sometimes how much some people hate Takumi because this is hilarious. A character isn't bad just because he's a dick sometimes. I really dislike how aggressive Takumi can be at times though because it's often done just to make Corrin look better, and fuck that.

I don't hate Takumi because he's a dick. I disrespect him because he's a brat.

[Emerson]

Again, cheap.

Way to be dismissive of people disliking him.

So basically, Takumi acted Tsundere towards Azura because he wanted to marry her the instant he saw her, and she mentioned in general terms about becoming family with the Hoshido royals?!

That's just...ridiculous.

Also, if he loved her, does that mean he doesn't actually love any of the other people he can S-support? I really dislike how S-supports mean no situation can ever be truly resolved.

But he never actually says why he's decided not to interact with Elise.

Again, why? Why do they insist on yelling at them instead of just hiding or admitting their crush and moving on with their life? Oboro seems perfectly fine admitting she has a crush on Takumi.

How does two Tsunderes being blatantly Tsundere mean Takumi isn't Tsundere?

What do you mean "Cheap?" Are you saying people can't be jealous? Are you saying people seeing a bit of themselves *in other characters* is cheap? Please explain.

I just didn't elaborate on it. I was just acknowledging that some people dislike Takumi and saying whether you like the character or not is opinion. It's not fact that Takumi is or isn't a bad character. For example, let's say your favorite Fates character is Azama. Great for you! But I hate Azama for my own reasoning. That's what I'm saying.

Takumi wanted to marry Azura, as he knew they weren't blood related *and was enamored by her*. However, Azura always talked about Mikoto wanting them to be siblings, and that make Takumi mad, as he felt he wouldn't be able to marry Azura.

He was much younger, remember that. Azura joined the family when Takumi was probably about 7 or 8. Whether it was puppy love or not, it stuck with him until the S-Support. Anyways, most other S-Supports, Takumi or not, have GROWING love, as the character may or may not like the other initially, but fall in love with them as time goes on. The way they're set up, they can end on the A support with them being good friends (depending on the support, it may be less than that ala Azama and Sakura) or it could go to the S Support ans have them fall in love. Whether or not the love bloomed is up to you. YOU choose that the character falls in love with the other.

Besides, is it really impossible to be in love with 2 or more people at once? No, it isnt! In fact, I know how it feels!

The reason of why Takumi told himself not to socialize with Elise is mostly up to interpretation to be honest. Either way, he did tell himself to not socialize with her, that much is confirmed.

Ok. Let's get this straight. THIS IS AN ANIME TROPE. No one acts like this in real life! You need to stop trying to put real world thinking on this. While someone could act like this, it would NEVER be to the extent of how it is used in anime, manga and games. It is exaggerated for the sake of comedy! Going onto out next topic, that's why I wanted you to look at the Selena and Keaton support, to see how tsunderes are actually portrayed in anime, manga and video games.

Different character have different mindsets. Oboro is comfortable with her love for Takumi, while tsuns either deny it or don't want to show it.

Also after reading Party Moth's reply, I think we need to go back and restart this discussion. I think I may have had what a tsun twisted a bit in my mind, whether it was my fault or otherwise.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Emerson]

Just wanted to post for correction's sake, but the Jaffar/Rath support people keep linking is a joke/troll support written by a fan to mock how both characters use an unnecessary amount of ellipses in a game already riddled with them. It's not an actual official support conversation. Unless you meant that Treehouse was referencing an old fandom joke.

Anyway, people find Takumi both aggravating and relatable due to his inferiority complex, which stems from a collection of factors that include his distress about being less "talented" than others in his family and having to work harder to reach similar benchmarks (as others have mentioned). His distrust of Azura stems from losing his father at a very young age, molding his hatred of Nohr to develop into a growing symbol of the force that takes his family away. Corrin's return (and subsequent showering of praise from their siblings) as well as losing his mother in just an instant are reminders of how weak he really is when all his efforts to grow stronger and protect his family are literally dispelled in a few days. This makes him into an occasionally irrational, lashing-out but ultimately somewhat relatable character.

I hesitate to call that "tsundere", as tsunderes tend to be characterized as compensating for insecurities by coming across as haughty and over-justifying seemingly mundane actions because of a fear of intimacy with other people. Tsunderes are petty in a different manner than Takumi's almost childlike spite.

Oh. I was under the impression it was an unused support. Oops.

I could see them doing that at this point.

I can't tell whether you're addressing me or Alandrage, but either way you're right. I really suck at putting what I mean across. (or remembering it...)

That literally sums up Keaton and Selena. Minus Keaton's love of collecting things (which shows how sheltered the Garou are) and Selena's competitivity (which comes from her inferiority complex against her mother).

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Alandrage]

What do you mean "Cheap?" Are you saying people can't be jealous? Are you saying people seeing a bit of themselves *in other characters* is cheap? Please explain.

I just didn't elaborate on it. I was just acknowledging that some people dislike Takumi and saying whether you like the character or not is opinion. It's not fact that Takumi is or isn't a bad character. For example, let's say your favorite Fates character is Azama. Great for you! But I hate Azama for my own reasoning. That's what I'm saying.

Takumi wanted to marry Azura, as he knew they weren't blood related *and was enamored by her*. However, Azura always talked about Mikoto wanting them to be siblings, and that make Takumi mad, as he felt he wouldn't be able to marry Azura.

He was much younger, remember that. Azura joined the family when Takumi was probably about 7 or 8. Whether it was puppy love or not, it stuck with him until the S-Support. Anyways, most other S-Supports, Takumi or not, have GROWING love, as the character may or may not like the other initially, but fall in love with them as time goes on. The way they're set up, they can end on the A support with them being good friends (depending on the support, it may be less than that ala Azama and Sakura) or it could go to the S Support ans have them fall in love. Whether or not the love bloomed is up to you. YOU choose that the character falls in love with the other.

Besides, is it really impossible to be in love with 2 or more people at once? No, it isnt! In fact, I know how it feels!

The reason of why Takumi told himself not to socialize with Elise is mostly up to interpretation to be honest. Either way, he did tell himself to not socialize with her, that much is confirmed.

Ok. Let's get this straight. THIS IS AN ANIME TROPE. No one acts like this in real life! You need to stop trying to put real world thinking on this. While someone could act like this, it would NEVER be to the extent of how it is used in anime, manga and games. It is exaggerated for the sake of comedy! Going onto out next topic, that's why I wanted you to look at the Selena and Keaton support, to see how tsunderes are actually portrayed in anime, manga and video games.

I'm saying it's just really shallow for people just to relate to a character just because they've felt jealousy once in their life, too. It's like saying "I relate to the bad guy because I, too, want to take over the world!"

Kay.

This is a story based around characters being limited in their relation to other characters to "lovers" and "not lovers", with no other options allowed. Since just about every S support ends up saying how the two reciprocants "have loved each other all along" regardless of who they are, why the heck doesn't everyone just marry everyone? Sure would keep plot threads from being unresolved that way.

Fine then.

Personally, I don't care if it's an anime trope. People take for granted that just because it's a trope, it's acceptable. But the point of using tropes is to make characters understandable in the short term, then proceed to build on them so that they're likable for reasons besides expressing anime tropes.

[Michelaar]

I'm saying it's just really shallow for people just to relate to a character just because they've felt jealousy once in their life, too. It's like saying "I relate to the bad guy because I, too, want to take over the world!"

Kay.

This is a story based around characters being limited in their relation to other characters to "lovers" and "not lovers", with no other options allowed. Since just about every S support ends up saying how the two reciprocants "have loved each other all along" regardless of who they are, why the heck doesn't everyone just marry everyone? Sure would keep plot threads from being unresolved that way.

Fine then.

Personally, I don't care if it's an anime trope. People take for granted that just because it's a trope, it's acceptable. But the point of using tropes is to make characters understandable in the short term, then proceed to build on them so that they're likable for reasons besides expressing anime tropes.

Takumi is my favourite character in the game (behind anna) because, I too, can relate to him. I feel much Jealousy in my life, especially of my siblings. Why do you think people like Takumi because they felt Jealous ONCE in their life? No. Being Jealous only once in your life is nearly impossible. And your last statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, this statement makes no sense. This is left up to your imagination to make it possible. And since every character can only have 1 S-support, they don't have those feelings for the other characters, except some special cases like Oboro.

[Emerson]

Takumi is my favourite character in the game (behind anna) because, I too, can relate to him. I feel much Jealousy in my life, especially of my siblings. Why do you think people like Takumi because they felt Jealous ONCE in their life? No. Being Jealous only once in your life is nearly impossible. And your last statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Can other people just do this for me? I'm bad at expressing my opinions tbh.

Anyways, I can relate to Corrin's character myself, as I'm way too gullible and trusting of others, even when I really shouldn't be.

Granted that doesn't mean I like the character, I think Corrin is a fucking idiot (well, that says more about how I see myself then I could even say).

I think this is one thing that needs to be said; not everyone who likes Takumi can relate to him, and not everyone who can relate to Takumi likes him.

Since just about every S support ends up saying how the two reciprocants "have loved each other all along" regardless of who they are, why the heck doesn't everyone just marry everyone? Sure would keep plot threads from being unresolved that way.

Like I said, not all supports are "I loved you all along." Hell, a good amount of supports start with the characters disliking each other!

Again, this statement makes no sense. This is left up to your imagination to make it possible. And since every character can only have 1 S-support, they don't have those feelings for the other characters, except some special cases like Oboro.

This is basically what is in my mind to reply with, but what I have a hard time putting into words.

Personally, I don't care if it's an anime trope. People take for granted that just because it's a trope, it's acceptable. But the point of using tropes is to make characters understandable in the short term, then proceed to build on them so that they're likable for reasons besides expressing anime tropes.

On a completely unrelated note, some people do like characters just because their tsundere. That's shallow (Oh shit I used it correctly!)

Anyways, I think I tried to get my point across is a really dumb and unrelated way. Let me try again. Just forget about the trope thing.

Takumi isn't a tsundere. Just because he, or any other character, possesses a quality that coincides with a tsundere's doesn't mean he is one. I'm not even bothering with an analogy because I kinda suck at them. :/

What I was getting at by the trope thing (You can remember it now) is that a tsundere is verily defined. They have a distinct way of speaking and typically have similar roles. Noire from Neptunia, Severa/Selena, Keaton, they are have very distinct and easily noticeable mannerisms that mark them as a tsundere.

I suck at this type of thing, so here's this quote again to literally state what I'm trying to say only better and more compact.

I hesitate to call that "tsundere", as tsunderes tend to be characterized as compensating for insecurities by coming across as haughty and over-justifying seemingly mundane actions because of a fear of intimacy with other people. Tsunderes are petty in a different manner than Takumi's almost childlike spite.

And a quote from me earlier.

Also after reading Party Moth's reply, I think we need to go back and restart this discussion. I think I may have had what a tsun(dere) was twisted a bit in my mind, whether it was my fault or otherwise.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Alandrage]

Hey, everyone in the entire world has felt jealousy. Everyone has felt every emotion. Does that mean we should all automatically love characters who display those emotions?

And when a character's brattiness is only justified by childish spite, in an environment as anime as FE14, it comes across to me as a badly executed Tsundere rather than an inferiority complex.

Urgh...why is it so hard to communicate?!

Like, there are plenty of other characters in video games who have expressed envy, not all of them as shallow as "I'm upset that my Mary Sue protagonist sibling is so much better than me!". Kain from Final Fantasy 4, Gunther Hermann from Deus Ex, freaking Innes from FE8! They've all got good reasons to be envious of those games's protagonists, and none of them are set up in such a manner that makes them come across as Tsundere rather than genuinely envious!

Edited July 30, 2016 by Alandrage

[Emerson]

Hey, everyone in the entire world has felt jealousy. Everyone has felt every emotion. Does that mean we should all automatically love characters who display those emotions?

And when a character's brattiness is only justified by childish spite, in an environment as anime as FE14, it comes across to me as a badly executed Tsundere rather than an inferiority complex.

Urgh...why is it so hard to communicate?!

I... literally just pointed this out...

*Edited to be more relevant and get the point across*

I think this is one thing that needs to be said; not everyone who likes someone can relate to them, and not everyone who can relate to someone likes them.

To further elaborate, I never meant to say everyone who can relate to a character likes them. Nor did I say people who like Takumi relate to him. What i'm saying is that relating to a character is a reason why people like them. Not THE reason, just a reason.

To be honest, this is a bit hard for me to explain. I honestly don't fully understand the idea myself. But people, including myself, feel attachment to characters because they possess similar qualities to them.

I think the main thing is that Takumi's jealousy is a main part of his character. If it was just a thing that happened once, it wouldn't be a reason to like him for the most part. However, Takumi's jealousy is a part of his character and interactions so much that it is a main part of who he is.

I'm sorry if this doesn't get across as I want it to. Like I've said, I'm really not the best when it comes to this. Michelaar and Party Moth are much better at explaining this.

I think this is getting a bit off track anyways. This is a conversation for a different time and a different place.

Anyways, onto the second part.

While his age is not directly mentioned, the general opinion is that he is a teenager. He's still maturing and learning from his mistakes. Takumi, as a character, is still childish and immature in his actions. A good amount of his character is about overcoming his immaturity. That is actually a thing everyone can relate to! Everyone has had to grow up and mature! Well, unless you're still like 12 or something... but that's besides the point.

Takumi's rudeness is caused his inability to control is emotions, as he is still learning how. The entire basis of him in Conquest and partially in Birthright is about how his emotions are unstable and he is easily manipulated! Takumi lets his anger take control of him, causing him to lash out at others. I would come up with more examples, but I'm, again, not the best at this. (Someone piggyback off me please!)

Like, there are plenty of other characters in video games who have expressed envy, not all of them as shallow as "I'm upset that my Mary Sue protagonist sibling is so much better than me!". Kain from Final Fantasy 4, Gunther Hermann from Deus Ex, freaking Innes from FE8! They've all got good reasons to be envious of those games's protagonists, and none of them are set up in such a manner that makes them come across as Tsundere rather than genuinely envious!

When did we start talking about Takumi and MU? (The answer is we didn't.)

Takumi's envy isn't in his Azura support. That one is about his unstable emotions (He loved Azura, but got very upset when Azura wanted to be siblings. He didn't know how to cope with it) as well as establishing how he was as a child.

I will admit, in a slightly twisted way, Takumi was being a little tsundere. Just by definition, not by execution.

Takumi's support with Kiragi has 0% tsundere in it. It's about how Kiragi has such natural talent with archery, and Takumi is jealous because he had to work his ass off to be as good as Kiragi is being much younger than him. Takumi initially tells Kiragi he was doing something wrong, but it's actually him telling himself that Kiragi is doing something wrong so he can feel better about himself. And that's just the C support. All of it is plainly written out and explained by Takumi himself, and is eventually resolved in the end.

For convenience: https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Takumi_Kiragi(PC)

I think TrueEm actually explained it perfectly. No it does not mean that we should love any characters who share traits with me. I am just as Lazy as Dwyer, but I don't love him either. It is just 1 reason why people like this character, other people like his design, or his combat skills. We all have different reason why you like a character

Maturing is an important part of one's life. You need to deal with it a different way. Ryoma was born with leadership, and didn't show many flaws. Hinoka mastered the Naginata and became a sky knight, while Takumi wasn't born with special skills, showed many flaws, and had to train way more than Hinoka to master the Bow. He felt that he was inferior to his siblings, and not only that, his father

and mother died. So he felt more unsure about himself. This is what got him to be so Jealous and what you call: ''Brat'' or ''Badly executed tsundere''. I get where it is coming from, but Takumi is NOT a tsundere. Just because someone shows a different side to him, doesn't mean he is a tsundere.

Like I described, Takumi has a very good reason to be envious, It looks like you're just trying to shit on takumi now.

Well first off, thank you. Little self esteem boost I guess.

That was explained perfectly. I couldn't have done it better myself. Not even close.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Michelaar]

Hey, everyone in the entire world has felt jealousy. Everyone has felt every emotion. Does that mean we should all automatically love characters who display those emotions?

And when a character's brattiness is only justified by childish spite, in an environment as anime as FE14, it comes across to me as a badly executed Tsundere rather than an inferiority complex.

Urgh...why is it so hard to communicate?!

Like, there are plenty of other characters in video games who have expressed envy, not all of them as shallow as "I'm upset that my Mary Sue protagonist sibling is so much better than me!". Kain from Final Fantasy 4, Gunther Hermann from Deus Ex, freaking Innes from FE8! They've all got good reasons to be envious of those games's protagonists, and none of them are set up in such a manner that makes them come across as Tsundere rather than genuinely envious!

I think TrueEm actually explained it perfectly. No it does not mean that we should love any characters who share traits with me. I am just as Lazy as Dwyer, but I don't love him either. It is just 1 reason why people like this character, other people like his design, or his combat skills. We all have different reason why you like a character

Maturing is an important part of one's life. You need to deal with it a different way. Ryoma was born with leadership, and didn't show many flaws. Hinoka mastered the Naginata and became a sky knight, while Takumi wasn't born with special skills, showed many flaws, and had to train way more than Hinoka to master the Bow. He felt that he was inferior to his siblings, and not only that, his father

and mother

died. So he felt more unsure about himself. This is what got him to be so Jealous and what you call: ''Brat'' or ''Badly executed tsundere''. I get where it is coming from, but Takumi is NOT a tsundere. Just because someone shows a different side to him, doesn't mean he is a tsundere.

Like I described, Takumi has a very good reason to be envious, It looks like you're just trying to shit on takumi now.

[Alandrage]

"I think the main thing is that Takumi's jealousy is a main part of his character. If it was just a thing that happened once, it wouldn't be a reason to like him for the most part. However, Takumi's jealousy is a part of his character and interactions so much that it is a main part of who he is."

I can see that. But it really just doesn't feel like actual jealousy to me; it feels like obligational jealousy. Like that he's only jealous because nobody else is, and because the game can make him into a Tsundere to appeal to people who like Tsunderes.

"While his age is not directly mentioned, the general opinion is that he is a teenager. He's still maturing and learning from his mistakes."

But he doesn't mature. In Hoshido, all that happens is that he breaks out of a brainwashing that served only to create a scene where he can be broken out of it, while in Nohr he turns into an angsty rage monster and dies. If he had an arc, maybe I could accept his immaturity, see him actually change. But we didn't get that. Instead, he's rarely anything more than a reaction image in cutscenes.

Then there's the fact that I've read through nearly all his supports, and have seen that his issues aren't addressed, only used as a way to give him a distinct voice. Even if they are addressed, it'll still go to waste, because the next support is going to have him right back at square one, none of his levelup or battle quotes change at all, and he still ends up jealous towards his own damn son! It's ridiculous!

[The Geek]

From reading this topic I get the feeling that OP doesn't really understand what a tsundere is. Just because two characters aren't all hunky-dory with each other from the get go doesn't make either of them a tsundere. By definition, a "tsundere" is a character who is prickly on the outside "tsuntsun" but sweet and caring on the inside "deredere".

Edited July 30, 2016 by The Geek

[Michelaar]

Takumi DOES mature. Look at chapter 25 of birthright. Thats enough for me. He breaks out of the possesion because he trusts that his siblings believe in him, what he didn't know for sure before that. And even then, The events of fates don't even take place longer than 2 Months. It is hard to fully mature in that time, don't you think?