Ace Attorney Mafia - Game Over (Won the Lawsuit!)

[Jaybee]

time to attempt to LIVE

i would guess that ninja doesn't contradict rule 2 in the same way miller isn't supposed to

Cool. Anyways, it's definitely JB. I thought about scum being LG, but him going into D3 voting his Hooker buddy could potentially be gamethrowing, even as a last minute gambit (especially considering there could potentially be a cop). Anyways, JB makes sense as ninja because he's the only person who'd benefit from LG not being dead (barring Scum!LG, but read above), because LG would be able to "clear" him (especially considering that it was pretty obvious that he was going to target JB). Even if another person was Scum!Ninja (or if I was scum), they wouldn't let LG live when he could potentially clear other players. This also explains his shifty claim, which seemed weird to me at the time considering it contradicts my claim AND looks bad because there's too much protection for town. He probably had to claim a passive role because otherwise him being targeted and getting a NO RESULT would be hilariously incriminating.

BTW, Toren also can't be SK because I already thought about that (otherwise town could be in MYLO after a scum lynch and a mislynch).

##Vote: JBCWK

why am i the only one who benefits? kirsche crumbed a power role and was also on gaius' scumlist here. you have as much reason to trust kirsche's non-active roleclaim as you do my BP claim.

i agree that having a bulletproof/odd night commuter/full use doctor is overshooting things. which means there's either a SK (i'm going to lean away from this theory about toren being sk, things would be way too weird otherwise), one of us is lying, or this game is weird af (and with a town rolecop + miller, miller + rule 2, resurrection, i wouldn't put this too far out of the way).

speaking of 3rd parties, i'm inclined to believe it's 4/1/1 because otherwise 11/3 is fucking hilariously broken in town's favour

anyway I still want to vote jb fwiw but I don't mind if I'm lynched to narrow it down. Pls win town tho.

I'm not voting yet I don't want to accidentally prematurely hammer

and this is how you turn a null read into a pure town read aasodjakceklls

The only person I want to lynch is JB. I know you and Quote aren't clear, but I'm not getting any scum intent from your posts. LG is probably town because my only issues with him feel like me being paranoid and overthinking things.

I don't think an SK makes sense in this game in general.

but where have you gotten any scum intent from my posts? these posts are really, really weak - what does being more "genuine" even mean?

---

i see LG and toren as confirmed town (toren based on rolespec only though), quote... though i've been feeling null on quote the whole game, that post alone is enough to push into townread because last scumBizz wouldn't just give up like that. this leaves refa and kirsche.

[Jaybee]

itp could be a survivor variant or some shit

[Jaybee]

step 2 of trying to LIVE involves going after someone

first i shall expand on town's apparent ridiculous amount of protection

the first possibility is that town has a bulletproof/odd night commuter/doctor. i was fine with believing this initially because i heavily suspected a SK in the game, but the chain of solokills likely points otherwise (or mod/ITP is fucking with us).

the other is that mafia has some form of protective role, and since elie obviously isn't scum, it leads that either myself or refa is last scum.

now, either maf has a bulletproof whose role (or, from what we've seen, 2nd role) is literally only useful if he gets shot by the vig, or maf has a commute. which one actually benefits scum more?

---

refa's reactions toward kirsche have also been extremely wobbly so far. this is end of d2, where he's leaning towards believing kirsche's miller claim, raises the possibility of scum!kirsche with a miller role (which would specifically fuck with eury and eury only) (and seems to run contrary to his logic here where he questions the existence of a ninja because it seems as though it would only affect LG), and then here he does a 180 on the kirsche claim? and now here he says he finds no scum intent from kirsche - but you still doubt kirsche's role, ja? this isn't some awkward scenario like tpp where i had an incentive to lie about being courier - in this game, if you're lying, you're scum. so how do you reconcile doubting his role as miller with thinking kirsche is town?

he still hasn't provided a suitable explanation for why he suddenly doubts the kirsche claim and he's applying double standards because it helps get me lynched

##Vote: Refa

[Zkirsche]

Honestly I'm prob leaning Refa more than JB just because of the clear and Quote not caring about us lining up their lynch.

[Zkirsche]

JB your logic kinda fails though because you could be maf lying about being BP from our PoV.

[solrocknroll]

Votals 4.1 - maya have the votals?

JB (2) L-2: Kirsche, Refa

Refa (1) L-3: JB

Not Voting: Quote, Gaius, Toren

You have 44 hours until Phase End. With 6 left alive, it takes 4 to hammer.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Enigmar

[Refa]

why am i the only one who benefits? kirsche crumbed a power role and was also on gaius' scumlist here. you have as much reason to trust kirsche's non-active roleclaim as you do my BP claim.

i agree that having a bulletproof/odd night commuter/full use doctor is overshooting things. which means there's either a SK (i'm going to lean away from this theory about toren being sk, things would be way too weird otherwise), one of us is lying, or this game is weird af (and with a town rolecop + miller, miller + rule 2, resurrection, i wouldn't put this too far out of the way).

speaking of 3rd parties, i'm inclined to believe it's 4/1/1 because otherwise 11/3 is fucking hilariously broken in town's favour

but where have you gotten any scum intent from my posts? these posts are really, really weak - what does being more "genuine" even mean?

---

i see LG and toren as confirmed town (toren based on rolespec only though), quote... though i've been feeling null on quote the whole game, that post alone is enough to push into townread because last scumBizz wouldn't just give up like that. this leaves refa and kirsche.

You just said that Kirsche crumbed a power role. Why would he do that as scum if he was a ninja?

I already called you out on our roles conflicting yesterday, and then you didn't mention anything about it until today.

I'm not getting anything out of your posts, which is what bothers me this late into the game (compared to everyone else, where I'm reading town intent from). Neither of the posts of mine you linked are weak, and you didn't even explain why they're weak other than being like "I dunno what being more genuine is HA WEAK POST". It means that his interactions are more believable and don't read as faked (e.g. what scum/scum interactions would be like).

Replying to your second post in next post.

[Refa]

now, either maf has a bulletproof whose role (or, from what we've seen, 2nd role) is literally only useful if he gets shot by the vig, or maf has a commute. which one actually benefits scum more?

---

refa's reactions toward kirsche have also been extremely wobbly so far. this is end of d2, where he's leaning towards believing kirsche's miller claim, raises the possibility of scum!kirsche with a miller role (which would specifically fuck with eury and eury only) (and seems to run contrary to his logic here where he questions the existence of a ninja because it seems as though it would only affect LG), and then here he does a 180 on the kirsche claim? and now here he says he finds no scum intent from kirsche - but you still doubt kirsche's role, ja? this isn't some awkward scenario like tpp where i had an incentive to lie about being courier - in this game, if you're lying, you're scum. so how do you reconcile doubting his role as miller with thinking kirsche is town?

he still hasn't provided a suitable explanation for why he suddenly doubts the kirsche claim and he's applying double standards because it helps get me lynched

##Vote: Refa

What Kirsche said about us not knowing if you're actually a BPV, but also like...this reads as you appealing to people to lynch me over you as opposed to you being like "this is why Refa is scum and I want to lynch him and why you should too".

I find no scum intent in Kirsche's posts. Roles don't have scum intent, so I'm not sure how you could even conflate the two. I stopped talking about his role because I felt him being frustrated over being constantly badgered about it read as town over scum.

Don't see how I used double standards at all.

[Refa]

You know what, let's do things like this. I'm going to list out actions that I don't think I'd do as scum, and you guys (specifically, Kirsche and LG, although the rest can reply too) are going to tell me why you think I'd do that as scum. It's a bit unconventional, but I'm getting frustrated at people being totally cool with voting me without providing any reasoning whatsoever (ironically, JB is the only person who isn't included in this). Note that I'm not going to reply to these responses (unless you specifically want me too), because it's counterproductive for me to be like "this is something i'd only do as town" "this is why i think you'd do it as scum" "ur dumb". This is moreso that people can actually think about why they want to vote me, so that I can understand their reasoning myself (and see if there's any scum intent in that), and because honestly I don't know what else I can do at this point.

1) Me being not sure to vote between Proto/Eury. I got a lot of flake for this on D2 but it's been ignored since then.

2) Me being the first to case DF (don't think anyone else was bothered by her at the time) and then unvoting her after the wagon got support.

3) Actually, just my interactions with DF in general.

4) Me pointing out the conflict between mine and JB's roles on Day 3.

5) Reasoning as to why I would NK GP over LG as scum, especially considering the last point.

6) All of my other posts TBH this is not a scum slot.

Now time to get triggered by the new Yugioh banlist, later.

[Zkirsche]

Yeah but consider this Refa: The alternative has been cleared?

Actually Bizz may be scum considering they hate being mislynched. Lynch here imo after we get clarification of ninja mechanics.

[Refa]

Yeah but consider this Refa: The alternative has been cleared?

Actually Bizz may be scum considering they hate being mislynched. Lynch here imo after we get clarification of ninja mechanics.

Okay, for the sake of argument assume that I'm town. If you were in position, what would you think about JB's claim?

Thought about that myself but I think they'd sub out as scum considering they don't seem to be enjoying the game (sorry, kind of a rude thing to assume)?

[Percivalé]

i hate being mislynched but i'm making it a rule not to whine about it in game anymore and my lynch would potentially help the town today, i am town and want town the win, and also after being mislynched in games twice already my streak was already broken and it feels like there's no point anymore to get upset about it. don't remind me

[Percivalé]

i still want to lynch jb

[Percivalé]

i hate being mislynched but i'm making it a rule not to whine about it in game anymore and my lynch would potentially help the town today, i am town and want town the win, and also after being mislynched in games twice already my streak was already broken and it feels like there's no point anymore to get upset about it. don't remind me

actually yeah can we maybe not bring this up again i still feel like shit for making a big deal over it before.

[Jaybee]

You just said that Kirsche crumbed a power role. Why would he do that as scum if he was a ninja?

I already called you out on our roles conflicting yesterday, and then you didn't mention anything about it until today.

I'm not getting anything out of your posts, which is what bothers me this late into the game (compared to everyone else, where I'm reading town intent from). Neither of the posts of mine you linked are weak, and you didn't even explain why they're weak other than being like "I dunno what being more genuine is HA WEAK POST". It means that his interactions are more believable and don't read as faked (e.g. what scum/scum interactions would be like).

Replying to your second post in next post.

i'm q sure kirsche said he was doing it to bait a reaction/role use somewhere im too lazy to find it

because, as i mentioned earlier, i thought it was still possible to co-exist. and it wasn't like i ignored you and made another post or something on D3 - i got back to sf to see that night 3 had started.

but how have my interactions with df been scummy? i went after her d2 (for the same reasons as you), dropped my vote when she came up with content, then on d3 i was on between gaius' claim and df's defence. there literally wasn't anything to say aside from "yeah im ok with voting df is gaius is right, which he probably is"

What Kirsche said about us not knowing if you're actually a BPV, but also like...this reads as you appealing to people to lynch me over you as opposed to you being like "this is why Refa is scum and I want to lynch him and why you should too".

I find no scum intent in Kirsche's posts. Roles don't have scum intent, so I'm not sure how you could even conflate the two. I stopped talking about his role because I felt him being frustrated over being constantly badgered about it read as town over scum.

Don't see how I used double standards at all.

that's what the rest of the posts are for man

i disagree that roles don't have scum intent because some specific roles are obviously only useful/make sense for certain factions (town janitor never forget LMAO) but that's for another day

if you're talking about the last part of the para, my point was that you're reading kirsche's posts as being townish but you never clarified your doubts on his role as being a miller. if you think he's a scum miller or something, then isn't that obviously a factor in wanting to lynch him?

double standards was regarding your logic regarding a scumNinja/LG combo and a scuMiller/rolecop combo because both scum roles are intended to fuck with, in all likelihood, 1 town role only and literally wouldn't affect anything else. so why raise the possibility of scuMiller if you also think scumNinja/LG doesn't seem likely?

You know what, let's do things like this. I'm going to list out actions that I don't think I'd do as scum, and you guys (specifically, Kirsche and LG, although the rest can reply too) are going to tell me why you think I'd do that as scum. It's a bit unconventional, but I'm getting frustrated at people being totally cool with voting me without providing any reasoning whatsoever (ironically, JB is the only person who isn't included in this). Note that I'm not going to reply to these responses (unless you specifically want me too), because it's counterproductive for me to be like "this is something i'd only do as town" "this is why i think you'd do it as scum" "ur dumb". This is moreso that people can actually think about why they want to vote me, so that I can understand their reasoning myself (and see if there's any scum intent in that), and because honestly I don't know what else I can do at this point.

1) Me being not sure to vote between Proto/Eury. I got a lot of flake for this on D2 but it's been ignored since then.

2) Me being the first to case DF (don't think anyone else was bothered by her at the time) and then unvoting her after the wagon got support.

3) Actually, just my interactions with DF in general.

4) Me pointing out the conflict between mine and JB's roles on Day 3.

5) Reasoning as to why I would NK GP over LG as scum, especially considering the last point.

6) All of my other posts TBH this is not a scum slot.

Now time to get triggered by the new Yugioh banlist, later.

1. as scum do you really care if either of them gets lynched, given you have no info on their roles? unless you really think one of eury/proto is a better player than the other you can still act to flake (and hell, both options are good anyway)

im fine w ur df interactions because my reactions were fairly close to yours

4. bulletproof is the easiest fucking mislynch on sf, short of nexus.

5. admittedly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jaybee]

***if gaius is right

[ZoesMad]

At work still, will respond to Refa in a few hours.

[solrocknroll]

Votals are still the same

13 hours until phase end lol

[Refa]

The graveyard must hate me lol.

[Refa]

Only answering the questions because honestly, you're completely right about your interactions with DF and your post doesn't feel like a scum defense to me (yeah, I know it's a copout but I don't know how else to explain it).

if you're talking about the last part of the para, my point was that you're reading kirsche's posts as being townish but you never clarified your doubts on his role as being a miller. if you think he's a scum miller or something, then isn't that obviously a factor in wanting to lynch him?

double standards was regarding your logic regarding a scumNinja/LG combo and a scuMiller/rolecop combo because both scum roles are intended to fuck with, in all likelihood, 1 town role only and literally wouldn't affect anything else. so why raise the possibility of scuMiller if you also think scumNinja/LG doesn't seem likely?

I figured that after I replied to his post where he was like "why am I lynch option and a miller" that I wasn't going to take issue w/it anymore, although I probably could have explained it better.

Scum Miller/Rolecop wouldn't fuck with one town role, though. It literally would get caught by Eury and LG's roles.

Are you a BPV or just Bulletproof?

So, at this point, I'm not reading JB as scum anymore. If Kirsche and Quote are scum, they'd have to be a ninja variant and some kind of information role (assuming scum has an information role should be safe right) which doesn't jive with the other scum claims (which have only two parts to them). I'm just going to go with my gut on this one honestly, because everything is a lot simpler and makes more sense if LG is scum. It means there are no weird role shenanigans, it means there is no ninja to counter what one role, it explains why he didn't die. I remember liking his content after he subbed into D2, with the only thing seeming off being the abrupt change in reads (IMO when people sub in to a game they've been following, they'll first post their genuine reads to get some form of content out regardless of alignment, so a change in reads here kind of bothers me). Guiltying DF7 still seems like a ballsy move to make as scum, but it kind of makes sense considering he was intending on voting her anyways? And honestly, I don't know what else to do at this point outside of NLing.

WAIT

WE SHOULD JUST NL

[Refa]

##Unvote

Reasoning:

-Doesn't lower the available amount of mislynches

-If Gaius is town, he's going to get NK'd but it's more helpful than a mislynch today and him getting a guilty in MYLO

-I don't know who to vote except him and this is a way better way of figuring out his alignment

[ZoesMad]

The only way I would know if Kirsche is scum through role is if he performed the Nightkill. Agree with NL EXCEPT for my lynch being lined up since now scum can wifom the kill to frame me seriously you keep those things to yourself dude. Bunch said my question has been answered in thread when I asked if Ninja is a tampering role need to find that.

You know what, let's do things like this. I'm going to list out actions that I don't think I'd do as scum, and you guys (specifically, Kirsche and LG, although the rest can reply too) are going to tell me why you think I'd do that as scum. It's a bit unconventional, but I'm getting frustrated at people being totally cool with voting me without providing any reasoning whatsoever (ironically, JB is the only person who isn't included in this). Note that I'm not going to reply to these responses (unless you specifically want me too), because it's counterproductive for me to be like "this is something i'd only do as town" "this is why i think you'd do it as scum" "ur dumb". This is moreso that people can actually think about why they want to vote me, so that I can understand their reasoning myself (and see if there's any scum intent in that), and because honestly I don't know what else I can do at this point.

1) Me being not sure to vote between Proto/Eury. I got a lot of flake for this on D2 but it's been ignored since then.

2) Me being the first to case DF (don't think anyone else was bothered by her at the time) and then unvoting her after the wagon got support.

3) Actually, just my interactions with DF in general.

4) Me pointing out the conflict between mine and JB's roles on Day 3.

5) Reasoning as to why I would NK GP over LG as scum, especially considering the last point.

6) All of my other posts TBH this is not a scum slot.

Now time to get triggered by the new Yugioh banlist, later.

1- This was never really a problem for me.

2/3- I think it's possible you may have been pushing DF as a distancer while it was safe. The main thing that bothers me is when you switched to Toren it didn't feel like you had a lot of justification for it. Then when I made the case you saw support and went back on for the bus as Eury was the more popular lynch. You knew DF would get got eventually.

4- JB has the exact same contradiction, I just thought his slot was scummier at that moment in time.

5- Your role was immune to me last night, if you couldn't be caught and ninja spec would happen there isn't any harm done in not killing me.

Yeah I need to reread Kirsche because I've ignored him way too much

##No Lynch for now

[ZoesMad]

Ninja wouldn't count as tampering according to host

[Refa]

Preemptive request to not modkill Toren (although I'm really annoyed that he's basically been lurking and contributing nothing, WHO DOES THAT AFTER BEING CLEARED).

The only way I would know if Kirsche is scum through role is if he performed the Nightkill. Agree with NL EXCEPT for my lynch being lined up since now scum can wifom the kill to frame me seriously you keep those things to yourself dude.

whoops

[Refa]

Also yeah.

##Vote: No Lynch