Eldigan isn't a bad Camus

[Rinehart]

The Manster District wasn't that stable either. They were living in continual fear of being attacked by Thracia and were in the process of being destroyed from the inside by Reidric. Soon after the end of the first generation, they were taken over by both Thracia and Grandbell, and even Grahnye (Eldigan's widow) was killed in the ensuing fight.

Besides, I can't imagine any decent soldier, let alone one as loyal as Eldigan, to simply abandon his country and run away when things start going south. Like most people in Jugdral at the time, he was in a crappy situation with no real solutions.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

The Manster District wasn't that stable either. They were living in continual fear of being attacked by Thracia and were in the process of being destroyed from the inside by Reidric. Soon after the end of the first generation, they were taken over by both Thracia and Grandbell, and even Grahnye (Eldigan's widow) was killed in the ensuing fight.

Besides, I can't imagine any decent soldier, let alone one as loyal as Eldigan, to simply abandon his country and run away when things start going south. Like most people in Jugdral at the time, he was in a crappy situation with no real solutions.

Like I said, Eldigan isn't a pragmatist. The Manster District wasn't stable but having two mature and healthy holy weapons users would've helped it-- the area was only dismantled once its warrior prince was killed and its holy weapon confiscated.

[FionordeQuester]

Like I said, Eldigan isn't a pragmatist. The Manster District wasn't stable but having two mature and healthy holy weapons users would've helped it-- the area was only dismantled once its warrior prince was killed and its holy weapon confiscated.

Well...maybe as long as Eltshan himself didn't tag along with Cuan. Otherwise, I don't think he would've done any better xD!

[Tetragrammaton]

If Eltoshan chooses to defect to Lenster, then he's surely a coward and no one will ever remember him, especially when his country needs him most.

That will make him worse than even the Lopto Sect mages, who risks their lives for their belief.

His fault is to trust Sigurd's lie, it doesn't matter whatever Sigurd said, you control him and you know he will kill as many Agustrian soldiers as he can.

Eltoshan should help Bordeux and Elliot to defend his country against the invaders right from the beginning.

[Rinehart]

If Eltoshan chooses to defect to Lenster, then he's surely a coward and no one will ever remember him, especially when his country needs him most.

That will make him worse than even the Lopto Sect mages, who risks their lives for their belief.

His fault is to trust Sigurd's lie, it doesn't matter whatever Sigurd said, you control him and you know he will kill as many Agustrian soldiers as he can.

Eltoshan should help Bordeux and Elliot to defend his country against the invaders right from the beginning.

When Eldigan first fought Elliot at the border, Sigurd wasn't in Agustria yet; it was Elliot's aggression that caused the conflict. Eldigan wasn't about to let a guy who wants to abduct his sister romp through his territory to start a war with Grandbell.

Sigurd never had any bad intentions (it was actually Lachesis who first asked for his help), but he's just one person and couldn't manage all of Agustria on his own. Grandbell had to send officials to keep all the captured castles under control, and given the state of Grandbell's internal affairs, it's no surprise that they proved to be corrupt.

Even if Eldigan overthrew Chagall and became the new king, his reign would have been short-lived. Leptor and Langbart were already en route to Agustria to arrest Sigurd, and you can imagine what they would do to the country once Sigurd was out of the picture.

[FionordeQuester]

And another one by Melth, the author of the Max Rank FE7 and FE6 LPs on Something Awful. He "somewhat specializes" in antiquity and Italian history, and also "knows a good amount about world history in every era". So I figured he'd be a good guy to ask about the logistics of Eltshan seizing power, and whether or not he could have done so without making the citizens of Agustria citizen. This is what he has to say, for anyone curious (and I know this is nerdy stuff, so you don't have to read)...

...It's hard to give a clear answer to [whether or not Eltshan could have seized power in a relatively peaceful manner] because ultimately this is a fictional country and we don't really know much about its culture and history and economy and whatnot. In real life, coups and usurpations and revolutions and civil wars are always really complicated and usually wind up with more than two sides and sometimes years or decades of sporadic fighting after the fact.

However, it sounds like Eltshan could probably have seized power smoothly and with relatively little bloodshed. One of my favorite authors is Machiavelli (because he writes amazingly clearly about complicated ideas and because he uses lots of interesting historical examples of everything he talks about) and he talks a great deal about how to successfully take and hold power. One thing he emphasizes is that it is absolutely necessary to quickly wipe out the whole family of whoever you are overthrowing so that they don't try to avenge him years later or aren't used as pawns and figureheads against you. By the sound of it, the rest of the royal house are all already dead so there aren't any relatives of Shagaal to kill off. But Shagaal himself has to die because it is REALLY easy to take back over a country you once ruled.

Now it sounds like Eltshan will have popular support- that's absolutely essential. If he can lower their taxes a little (difficult in wartime, but maybe possible if his friendship with Sigurd lets them make peace immediately) and not shake things up too much, he should be able to keep that pretty easily.

He'll probably have enemies among the nobility because they won't see him as better than them and will think they should be king instead and so forth. In particular, anyone who would have benefited personally from Shagaal's rule will be an enemy. They need to be either killed or befriended but made less powerful quickly. Really this is the big thing, Eltshan's enemies would be whoever Shagaal would have empowered or enriched. If they can be made not a threat, then he shouldn't have anything to worry about in the near term.

Of course, in the future, this series of usurpations is likely to be used as an excuse for uprisings and whatnot for decades, but there's not much that can be done about that- except to make sure there's no one who wants to start an uprising to begin with.

So basically, Eltshan COULD have saved Agustria...but only by doing several things that would have been hilariously out of character for him. He'd have to be ruthless, politically savvy, be a big picture thinker, AND be willing to kill the very man he had sworn to serve. And he would, indeed, want to kill him; Sigurd already showed mercy on him once, and look how THAT turned out!

Edited August 24, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Tetragrammaton]

When Eldigan first fought Elliot at the border, Sigurd wasn't in Agustria yet; it was Elliot's aggression that caused the conflict. Eldigan wasn't about to let a guy who wants to abduct his sister romp through his territory to start a war with Grandbell.

Sigurd never had any bad intentions (it was actually Lachesis who first asked for his help), but he's just one person and couldn't manage all of Agustria on his own. Grandbell had to send officials to keep all the captured castles under control, and given the state of Grandbell's internal affairs, it's no surprise that they proved to be corrupt.

Even if Eldigan overthrew Chagall and became the new king, his reign would have been short-lived. Leptor and Langbart were already en route to Agustria to arrest Sigurd, and you can imagine what they would do to the country once Sigurd was out of the picture.

One mistake leads to another, the only castle Eltoshan didn't see it taken by Grandbell is Silvail.

War is not a place for emotion, he lost his entire country for his softness.

Leptor and Langobart only show up until the end of chapter 3, while Agustria still has a full chance in the beginning of chapter 2.

You know, it's almost impossible to kill him without losing a few units.

Edited August 24, 2016 by hanhnn

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

If theres one bad Camus in FE4, its Ishtar

Its like the game want us to think she's a "whatever the term is for bad guys who isn't bad" character, but everything she actually does on screen puts so much shit against it that i'm convinced the only reason Ishtar is considered a sympathetic character is because she's "hot"

[Dengres]

13: Mustafa, Yen'fay, possibly Micaiah's entire army (assuming that they die before Part 4)

I think you mixed a few things up there for a second^^"

[Jotari]

If theres one bad Camus in FE4, its Ishtar

Its like the game want us to think she's a "whatever the term is for bad guys who isn't bad" character, but everything she actually does on screen puts so much shit against it that i'm convinced the only reason Ishtar is considered a sympathetic character is because she's "hot"

Standing saving kids from the child hunts is pretty sympathetic.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Jotari

[Rinehart]

If theres one bad Camus in FE4, its Ishtar

Its like the game want us to think she's a "whatever the term is for bad guys who isn't bad" character, but everything she actually does on screen puts so much shit against it that i'm convinced the only reason Ishtar is considered a sympathetic character is because she's "hot"

Ishtar is a pretty standard Camus. Born to the wrong side, watches her boyfriend turn into the devil, does her best to prevent some of the Empire's atrocities, eventually realizes she is on the wrong side but does not wish to defect to the army that killed her parents and brother (not all of whom were evil).

[Hardin]

Ishtar plays a game with Julius to see who can kill someone the fastest. That's not just a bad choice, that's sadistic.

Yurius:
“Ishtar, I’m leaving the dark bishop in charge. Let’s be on our way. Hey, let’s have a little fun first. I’d say one of the rebels would make a nice blood offering. Shall we have a little test of skill to see who can make the quickest kill?”

Ishtar:
“I’m all for that!”

[Jotari]

Ishtar plays a game with Julius to see who can kill someone the fastest. That's not just a bad choice, that's sadistic.

Yurius:

“Ishtar, I’m leaving the dark bishop in charge. Let’s be on our way. Hey, let’s have a little fun first. I’d say one of the rebels would make a nice blood offering. Shall we have a little test of skill to see who can make the quickest kill?”

Ishtar:

“I’m all for that!”

Is that really any worse than Ike's hate boner for the Black Knight? I mean this group of rebels has slaughtered pretty much her entire family.

[Diffuse]

A good read. Eldigan's plight feels a lot more understandable now...

Eldigan could've made Agustria great again

... although the weird mental images caused by this line might make it slightly harder to take him seriously in the future. Let's hope I'll be able to unsee it in time for the next update to the translation patch.

Edited August 25, 2016 by VmmVaa

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Is that really any worse than Ike's hate boner for the Black Knight? I mean this group of rebels has slaughtered pretty much her entire family.

i totally get where this is comming from.

i have noticed a pattern where some people on the forum doesn't seem to take family relationships into consideration. (example being my discussion on this matter in fiorde's LP thread).

[Hardin]

Is that really any worse than Ike's hate boner for the Black Knight? I mean this group of rebels has slaughtered pretty much her entire family.

I think it's a huge issue, because Ike wasn't doing it for fun, he was looking for his own kind of justice. For Julius and Ishtar it was just a game to pass the time.

[Rinehart]

I think it's a huge issue, because Ike wasn't doing it for fun, he was looking for his own kind of justice. For Julius and Ishtar it was just a game to pass the time.

The word choice was Julius's.

[Hardin]

She doesn't even come across as conflicted about the idea of hunting humans for sport, and if she kills an opponent she laughs about it.

"Ha ha... looks like I won your highness."

This is just disgusting conduct no matter how you try to slice it.

[Rinehart]

She doesn't even come across as conflicted about the idea of hunting humans for sport, and if she kills an opponent she laughs about it.

"Ha ha... looks like I won your highness."

This is just disgusting conduct no matter how you try to slice it.

Given how sadistic Ishtar's mother Hilda is and how she's been around Julius all the time, it's no surprise that she's rather numb to the idea of killing. If your entire life has revolved around people who don't value life at all, then you won't feel any different.

Coupled with the fact that Seliph's army mercilessly wiped our her family (including those that aren't bad people, like Ishtor and Liza), she isn't likely to feel any sympathy for them.

[Hardin]

That might be true, but it doesn't excuse her actions or make it acceptable.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Given how sadistic Ishtar's mother Hilda is and how she's been around Julius all the time, it's no surprise that she's rather numb to the idea of killing. If your entire life has revolved around people who don't value life at all, then you won't feel any different.

Coupled with the fact that Seliph's army mercilessly wiped our her family (including those that aren't bad people, like Ishtor and Liza), she isn't likely to feel any sympathy for them.

pretty much.

also i'm sorry but if someone went around killing my family, i wouldn't be very happy to be sympathetic towards them.

[Rinehart]

That might be true, but it doesn't excuse her actions or make it acceptable.

She is still considered a villain.

Also, take a look at this exchange in Chapter 9:

Celice: “But Levin, the empire is our enemy. Is there any reason we should take on Thracia, too?”

Levin: “Celice! Get over it!! This is war. If you can’t handle the heat, then you belong back at Tilnanogue!”

Even Levin doesn't care if you kill innocents on the enemy side. If you're too soft or sympathetic towards your enemy, you won't survive. That's what happened to Sigurd.

In the Final Chapter, Ishtar herself explains to Julius the nature of her hatred towards the Liberation Army.

Julius: "Hmph… Why do you need to join the battle all of a sudden? They can send as many soldiers as they want. They can’t defeat me… You just stay put."

Ishtar: “I mean no disrespect… but do understand I take great pride in being a warlock of Freege. With the murder of my parents and my brother… it pains me to sit here doing nothing. Please allow me to fight!"

It's no surprise that she doesn't care if Julius wants to play a "game" where they kill some rebels.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Rinehart

[Jotari]

I can't think of a single good reason why Ishtar would want to join Seliph. Her country and family might not be the nicest in the world but its all she's ever known. She's a decent enough person to know that the child hunts are wrong and do what she can to mitigate the damage but just because she's a good person doesn't mean she has to work with the good guys. What does she even know about the Liberation Army? They're a group of rebels that have started a war that's getting a lot of people killed. She never gets the opportunity to see them do anything bening and has likely been raised with propaganda regarding their history and the actions of Sigurd. What's really odd is how quickly other enemy units in the series are to defect as soon as the lord blinks their eyes at them.

[Hardin]

I agree that she's a villain, I just don't think she's one worthy of people's sympathy anymore than Lagbolt or Blume are.

[Jotari]

I reckon another reason Ishtar gets more sympathy is because of her age. She's a lot younger than most other enemies in the game (and series). The whole being born on the wrong side is in much greater effect for her than other Camus types who are adults and have realistic opportunities/reasons to defect. Personally I like Ishtar but I can see why some of the sympathy might be undue. Just for the sake of comparison, what has Blume ever really done to anyone? It was Reptor machinations that led to the world's current state. Blume was just the son of the man who was chosen to be put in charge. Said job of being in charged then involved almost two decades of constant rebellion. Thracia also reveals that he's against the child hunts and even Teeny admits he's not all that bad. If anything he's the closest we've had to a politically neutral enemy in the series, doing only what's needed to maintain order and keep his own head of the chopping board. Yet the narrative depicts him as this iron fisted monster. Not sure what the opinion of the fanbase is. I don't see many people mention him. I blame it on Thracia only giving him six lines of dialogue