General opinions on fates and how it ranks compared to the series

[Slyfox]

Is that the only thing then? I agree with you, it was the wrong decision, since IntSys can't write anything other than in black and white. However, people do have a hard time abandoning family, and Corrin grew up with the one in Nohr.

Regardless, I'm talking from the point of deciding to invade Hoshido, which people tend to say that's where Conquest goes downhill.

[saisymbolic]

I'd place it as middle of the road; it makes major strides forward in the gameplay department, but fails in the storytelling one.

I pretty much agree with this.

Even though I like Fates as a whole, there are way too many missed opportunities and moments. As much as I love CQ, the way the narrative is written literally makes it impossible to justify choosing it for in-universe reasons. I, SaiSymbolic, chose Nohr because I preferred the characters, the music, the gameplay and the box art—Corrin essentially chooses to side with Nohr because they are an oblivious idiot that can't see their "father" has it out of them.

Compared to the other titles, I still think Shadow Dragon is the worst though. At least with Fates, I can say I like a majority of its characters and game play.

The same can't be said for Shadow Dragon.

Edited September 3, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Butterstroke]

I've only played Awakening and Fates (all three stories), I can say I definitely value Awakening over Fates. However, I do like Fates but I like Awakening better as the story seemed more well made.

Fates' children units are great but are not made for that story.

[Thane]

Regardless, I'm talking from the point of deciding to invade Hoshido, which people tend to say that's where Conquest goes downhill.

Which is a bad decision that they agree to from the very beginning; it's not like Azura forced them to do so. Not only that, but they hide the information from both the Nohrian siblings and the Hoshidans, not bothering to even attempt to seek an alternate route and opting instead to waste their one shot at reaching an understanding by making jokes and enjoying the tense, awkward atmosphere in whatever that neutral region is called.

By saying "yeah there's no other way to stop Garon", you're not only ignoring Birthright but also any number of creative reasons they could've come up with. Just accepting that the invasion is the only possible way to defeat him is absolutely ludicrous and makes both Corrin and Azura look idiotic and unsympathetic at best.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Thane

[Dark Sage]

Depends on the version. Generally, all three have terrible stories with too many characters that are allegedly important but do nothing and the pacing is all fucked up. I'm also not a fan of many of the aesthetic choices and some of the more otaku-pandering geared content.

Gameplay wise, it's more version specific:

Birthright is absolutely terrible, no difficulty, almost no decent maps, pretty much nothing. One of the worst FEs.

Revelation has the worst unit balance but is the best for PvP if you care and does have the cross-kingdom supports going for it. Map design is often better than Birthrout's but some of them are the worst maps in the series. Really bad, ranked low.

Conquest is the best of the three and a genuinely decent game in its own right, although the unit balance and map design are overrated by many. At least nobody is absolutely unusable the way someone like Sophia is but that's not saying much and Camilla, Corrin, and the royals are all too ridiculous. The main common problems some of the maps fall into are a) a lack of turtling disincentives, b) too much reliance on DV gimmicks and c) bad at checking juggernauts like Camilla until really late. It definitely falls short of FE5, 6, and 12 and a lot of FE10 part 1 too, but it's better than many other entries.

I guess one big complaint I have is that the game really shoves the royals in your face, both in gameplay and in story, so if you're like me and hate most of the royals, the game is essentially telling you to eat shit. The only ones I actually liked were Sakura and Takumi. I didn't care about Leo, and the rest I badly wanted to die on all the routes.

[Alastor15243]

Slyfox, Corrin isn't "making the best of a bad situation". They've literally decided that it's more important to keep their idiot siblings from hating him than to make sure the war isn't won by a bloodthirsty sociopath. Yes, their plan does wind up stopping Garon in the end, but only after he succeeds in doing about half of the horrible things he would've done had you lost Birthright. It's an obscenely dangerous plan that has both the best and worst case scenarios end in the death of hundreds if not thousands more innocent people than defecting to Hoshido would have. If Corrin really meant what they said when they said "my happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world", they would've literally done the exact opposite of what they actually chose to do when they said that. Their own personal happiness is the only reason why they're not siding with Hoshido.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Slyfox]

Which is a bad decision that they agree to from the very beginning; it's not like Azura forced them to do so. Not only that, but they hide the information from both the Nohrian siblings and the Hoshidans, not bothering to even attempt to seek an alternate route and opting instead to waste their one shot at reaching an understanding by making jokes and enjoying the tense, awkward atmosphere in whatever that neutral region is called.

By saying "yeah there's no other way to stop Garon", you're not only ignoring Birthright but also any number of creative reasons they could've come up with. Just accepting that the invasion is the only possible way to defeat him is absolutely ludicrous and makes both Corrin and Azura look idiotic and unsympathetic at best.

You are right, but I highly doubt Hoshido will let Corrin help them after s/he decided to side with Nohr. If Corrin can join Hoshido at any time, then Birthright has no need to exist. There has to be a consequence. The Royals want Corrin back, but I don't think the rest of the Hoshidans will be accepting.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Slyfox

[Thane]

You are right, but I highly doubt Hoshido will let Corrin help them after s/he decided to side with Nohr. If Corrin can join Hoshido at any time, then Birthright has no need to exist. There has to be a consequence. The Royals want Corrin back, but I don't think the rest of the Hoshidans will be accepting.

There are several things I would like to point out here:

1) You're right, we don't know, which is exactly why it's stupid for Corrin to not try.

2) Aside from Takumi, the Hoshidans are desperate to get them back, as you say. What the rest of Hoshido thinks doesn't matter at all to either Hinoka or Sakura as evidenced by the epilogue. Also, if there was some distrust thrown into the mix, we might actually get something akin to tension and complexity in this game, which is something I would welcome.

3) You are right, there should be consequences; the problem is that there are no benefits to choosing Nohr, yet the game doesn't treat it as such, which is why it has this massive identity crisis and a story that doesn't make sense.

4) The only reason as to why there's a path split in the first place is because Azura arbitrarily chooses not to divulge the incredibly important information she possesses. Birthright and Conquest are de facto wrong choices.

[Florete]

Best gameplay in the series, although unit balance in Rev is pretty wacky.

Worst story.

It's actually kind of funny. Most of the FE games strike some balance, but Fates is just at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. The base mechanics and the overall gameplay are fantastic (yes, all three routes), but the writing and story are hot garbage (yes, all three routes).

Edited September 4, 2016 by Red Fox of Fire

[Slyfox]

I actually can't keep up with the debate at the moment. Playing a game with friends, typing replies in my spare time, so I'm not up to date with all the counter-arguments. To be continued! Sorry!

[eclipse]

The story has to be really REALLY bad before I go into full bitching mode. Fates' story ranges from mediocre to too convenient, but not bad enough where I feel like it's worth complaining about. It's one thing to be disappointed, but to continue the disappointment six months after the game has been released is bordering on unhealthy obsession. I solve the story issues by using the Start button. Furthermore, those that simply see the story as "meh" won't be making topics to complain about it, or otherwise respond to those topics, so you're getting a skewed view of things.

Gameplay-wise, it's a complicated game. Most of it is good, but the gimmicks in the last few chapters of Revelations are bad. Many things have been improved on, whether it be the dual system, skill balance (somewhat), level scaling, etc. The only two things I take issue with are the bases of the late-joining non-royal units and the sheer number of gimmick weapons - seriously, what's the point of Speed Thunder? Like any good FE, there's a ton of replay value!

Overall, I'm happy with the game. However, satisfied people aren't the vocal ones!

[NekoKnight]

Slyfox, Corrin isn't "making the best of a bad situation". They've literally decided that it's more important to keep their idiot siblings from hating him than to make sure the war isn't won by a bloodthirsty sociopath. Yes, their plan does wind up stopping Garon in the end, but only after he succeeds in doing about half of the horrible things he would've done had you lost Birthright. It's an obscenely dangerous plan that has both the best and worst case scenarios end in the death of hundreds if not thousands more innocent people than defecting to Hoshido would have. If Corrin really meant what they said when they said "my happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world", they would've literally done the exact opposite of what they actually chose to do when they said that. Their own personal happiness is the only reason why they're not siding with Hoshido.

Huh...I always cringed at that line because of the context of Conquest (Kamui's self-righteousness deflecting the gravity of the evil he's supporting) but it's even more hypocritical when you compare it to Birthright, which is the true "justice before personal feelings" route. Even in Birthright, Kamui is trying to avoid harming his Nohrian siblings, so you could argue he isn't even sacrificing his personal feelings here.

I know Revelations is canon because "muh golden DLC route" but between Conquest and Birthright, the latter seems to be far more in line with Kamui's character. Conquest is bizzaro-world where the good guy makes all the wrong choices and gets a lot of innocent people killed.

Edited September 3, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Loki Laufeyson]

The story has to be really REALLY bad before I go into full bitching mode. Fates' story ranges from mediocre to too convenient, but not bad enough where I feel like it's worth complaining about. It's one thing to be disappointed, but to continue the disappointment six months after the game has been released is bordering on unhealthy obsession. I solve the story issues by using the Start button. Furthermore, those that simply see the story as "meh" won't be making topics to complain about it, or otherwise respond to those topics, so you're getting a skewed view of things.

Gameplay-wise, it's a complicated game. Most of it is good, but the gimmicks in the last few chapters of Revelations are bad. Many things have been improved on, whether it be the dual system, skill balance (somewhat), level scaling, etc. The only two things I take issue with are the bases of the late-joining non-royal units and the sheer number of gimmick weapons - seriously, what's the point of Speed Thunder? Like any good FE, there's a ton of replay value!

Overall, I'm happy with the game. However, satisfied people aren't the vocal ones!

This is my opinion. Like, i didnt like Conquest's story so i thought about modifying it in a fic, and then just pushing start from here on out. Ive been done with arglebargle about it for hella days now. The fact people wont just go "yeah i didnt like it" and move on is kinda..creepin' me out tbh. Besides, i found Birthright's story passable. Revelation's story was truly and utterly boring after chapter 17. Its like whatever.

Gameplay is where Fates is a fucking viking, and its the reason im playing FE to begin with. All this freaking content and all this glorious gameplay, just S O C K I T T O M E. Conquest has the best maps ive seen since Radiant Dawn. Im really fond of the characters in this game, and i love My Castle (yeah, deal with it). I love the soundtrack of the game. It also looks really good, yes. Goodshit.txt. I find Rev fun to play simply for the cast party though. Where i can have Xander and Ryoma being gay for each other and changing into each other's classes. All these new ideas with weapons and shizz, its interesting! I also feel the difficulty is done really well. I rank Fates (at least Conquest) in the upper middle tier of FE.

[Slyfox]

You know, it's kind of funny.

While I find Revelation Corrin to be unbearable, I find him/her to be far more in character in that route. Conquest Corrin and Birthright Corrin are firmly planted in opposite extremes. Bah, Fates is too inconsistent, on top of poor writing...

[Alastor15243]

The story has to be really REALLY bad before I go into full bitching mode. Fates' story ranges from mediocre to too convenient, but not bad enough where I feel like it's worth complaining about. It's one thing to be disappointed, but to continue the disappointment six months after the game has been released is bordering on unhealthy obsession. I solve the story issues by using the Start button. Furthermore, those that simply see the story as "meh" won't be making topics to complain about it, or otherwise respond to those topics, so you're getting a skewed view of things.

Gameplay-wise, it's a complicated game. Most of it is good, but the gimmicks in the last few chapters of Revelations are bad. Many things have been improved on, whether it be the dual system, skill balance (somewhat), level scaling, etc. The only two things I take issue with are the bases of the late-joining non-royal units and the sheer number of gimmick weapons - seriously, what's the point of Speed Thunder? Like any good FE, there's a ton of replay value!

Overall, I'm happy with the game. However, satisfied people aren't the vocal ones!

Good sentiment overall, but I have two comments:

1: You're assuming everyone bought and played the game at launch. I, for example, due to the nature of my blind narrative Let's Play, only finished conquest like two weeks ago, that's why it's still fresh on my mind. Other people who you see hating on the story six months after launch may very well have just completed it.

2: I honestly wouldn't call Fates's story "mediocre". My definition of a mediocre story is one that doesn't do anything cool or interesting or unique but also doesn't insult the reader's intelligence. And Fates has plotholes and plot-mandated stupidity all over the place, that cannot be denied.

[Blademaster_Aio]

Fates as really awesome gameplay. Poor story aside, it is my most loved FE game and Conquest even more so.

...the story has a lot of wasted potential and there is little world building which makes me sad. There is little excuse for a poor story, considering none of the stories before Awakening were 'poor'.

I also love the playable characters and some of the supports are great.

The actual thing is that it has all the elements to make a great story, but then it doesn't. Some of the elements in the story are really nice, but it's not enough. At least the world building and map should've been done better. I don't even know where everything is.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Blademaster_Aio

[kcirrot]

I love the gameplay, even Revelations. The story is garbage, Conquest most of all. But the game is fun enough that I've been playing it almost constantly since launch. So on balance I like Fates.

[eclipse]

Good sentiment overall, but I have two comments:

1: You're assuming everyone bought and played the game at launch. I, for example, due to the nature of my blind narrative Let's Play, only finished conquest like two weeks ago, that's why it's still fresh on my mind. Other people who you see hating on the story six months after launch may very well have just completed it.

2: I honestly wouldn't call Fates's story "mediocre". My definition of a mediocre story is one that doesn't do anything cool or interesting or unique but also doesn't insult the reader's intelligence. And Fates has plotholes and plot-mandated stupidity all over the place, that cannot be denied.

1. There are people like I mentioned. It's one thing if you've just finished the games, but to go on about it for months on end is not good. Think of it like an ex that you didn't like - it's understandable if you're unhappy shortly after you break up, but it's unhealthy if you continue to talk about how bad that relationship was half a year later.

2. My definition of "bad" is "the gameplay is tied so tightly to the story that I can't forget the latter exists" or "the story supports things that REALLY clash with my personal morals". Fates does neither. If you want examples of these, I'll be more than happy to PM them to you. While the latter is usually what'll get to me, I think I'm pretty forgiving on that front (for reference, I'm Christian, and even if some of the stuff in SMT IV kinda bothered me, it wasn't enough for me to dismiss the entire game - and no, it wasn't the religious references that did it).

[Abvora]

Gameplay-wise, Fates is one of the best in the series, especially Conquest. Great maps, great mechanics, great new classes and skills, it's an absolute blast to play. The soundtrack and visuals are equally amazing, and little touches like the battlefield changing depending on where a unit is on the map is neat. It's a beautiful thing to watch and I love it.

Character-wise, this is more divisive, but I think Fates' characters improved a lot from Awakening's. GBA era still had the best cast, but most of Fates' cast relies a lot less on gimmicks and are generally more fleshed-out. Designs are also mixed--on the one hand,there's a lot of appreciation for the improvements on Knights, Cavaliers, etc, from Awakening. On the other hand, there's a lot of hate for the steps back on Knights, Cavaliers, etc, from Awakening.

Story-wise...yeah, this is pretty much universally agreed to be Fates' weakest thing. I still think the Internet exaggerates how terrible it is, to an extent--Birthright and Revelation were fine to me, for the most part; not great, but not terrible, and while Conquest is mediocre, it's still not as awful as I'd heard about before playing.

I'm not saying the story is good, mind you; it suffers from too many plot contrivances, thin worldbuilding, black-and-white morality, and having too big a main character cast (there is no way you can give ten characters equal screentime, as the royal sisters unfortunately found out). But the parts I liked outnumbered the parts I didn't, so I could find it acceptable and even enjoyable at places.

The pre-release hype definitely played a part in the negative reception--it's not the entire reason behind it, but after all the talk about how great it was, disappointment would hit a lot harder and make people more prone to critique.

Now to the character that ruined Conquest and retroactively Birthright as well: Azura. Where do I even start with her? She is everything bad about Fates' story shoved into one of the stupidest, most selfish characters in any game I've ever played and that's saying something, since most RPG villains are selfish.

How about I start with the obvious: Her Ship Tease with Corrin. It is even more forced than it was with Chrom and Sumia and makes even less sense for it. It is pretty clear from the way her character is introduced and featured that the writers had a pretty serious hard-on for her, so much so that they even slipped it into Corrin's character for a sec in Conquest.

Which brings me to my next point: Conquest's entire second half and thus the deaths of Takumi and Ryoma and the utter traumatization of Sakura could have been avoided if Azura wasn't such a selfish slut. She could have fessed up and told Corrin the full story about Valla and Anankos right then and there, because, you know, they WERE there by that point in the game, but instead she decided not to and goes on what I can only assume is a quest of revenge against the Hoshidan Royal family. But nope, she decided it would be better to slaughter half of the Hoshidan population because its funny. And Corrin is thinking with his D (or V if you play as a female) and blindly obeys her.

...really? Hating a character because she got Ship Teased with the main character? No one's saying you have to like Azura and Sumia, but that's an incredibly shallow reason to hate them.

I'll actually argue that she had a reason not to tell Corrin about Anankos while they were in Valla--the way through the Bottomless Canyon was either closed or closing soon (it closes at 16 in REV, they're at 15 in CQ), so they wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything to stop Anankos. What's the point in telling him, then, when he's never going to be able to tell anyone else and will be stressed by the knowledge he's playing into Anankos's claws? She considers it a personal agony to know and not be able to tell anyone, so why would she want to inflict that on him? And even if she did tell him, how would it have averted the invasion of Hoshido? That was well under way at that point. Their participation or not wouldn't have done a thing to stop it (And no, I'm not advocating the invasion--I just don't see how telling Corrin about Anankos would have stopped it).

oh look, the thread's already derailed into people fighting about Conquest's plot, myself included

Edited September 4, 2016 by Abvora

[Slyfox]

...really? Hating a character because she got Ship Teased with the main character? No one's saying you have to like Azura and Sumia, but that's an incredibly shallow reason to hate them.

I'll actually argue that she had a reason not to tell Corrin about Anankos while they were in Valla--the way through the Bottomless Canyon was either closed or closing soon (it closes at 16 in REV, they're at 15 in CQ), so they wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything to stop Anankos. What's the point in telling him, then, when he's never going to be able to tell anyone else and will be stressed by the knowledge he's playing into Anankos's claws? She considers it a personal agony to know and not be able to tell anyone, so why would she want to inflict that on him? And even if she did tell him, how would it have averted the invasion of Hoshido? That was well under way at that point. Their participation or not wouldn't have done a thing to stop it (And no, I'm not advocating the invasion--I just don't see how telling Corrin about Anankos would have stopped it).

oh look, the thread's already derailed into people fighting about Conquest's plot, myself included

1. I actually think the hate isn't all that shallow in Azura's case. She has a main character status, but only spouts exposition, is ship-teased with Corrin 24/7 and is basically ignored by everyone else. Those are already four big reasons, that when thrown together, can get people's blood boiling. Plus the Conquest crystal ball fiasco.

2. I pretty much agree with you, although I'm a little less lenient with Azura. People like to conveniently forget that there is no stopping Nohr from invading, regardless of the route. Doesn't the army even reach the Hoshidan Castle in Revelation? In all three routes, the only reason the invasion stops is because Garon dies.

Anyway, in Conquest, Corrin wouldn't have an army capable of rebelling against Garon, and s/he can only do so at the end, and even then s/he only has half the Nohrian army with her/him. And thanks to Azura, all evidence against Garon was destroyed. The royal siblings most likely won't take Corrin by her/his word, and with Iago basically spying on them, lack of evidence is asking for trouble.

Corrin and Azura are my two most disliked characters in Fates, and I really don't want to defend Conquest Corrin, but I always feel like so much of the hate is misinformed, thus we have me acting as some sort of defense attorney. Oh, woe is me... Aside from a couple of decisions that Corrin probably should not have made, the story of Conquest is carried by other people who do stupid things far more often. Namely, the rest of the royals, Azura withholding the crystal ball from the rest of the siblings, and even Gunter! Also, Garon decides to invade, not Corrin.

Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a backseat Corrin instead of a poorly constructed Robin clone or an overly aggressive Corrin, any day.

3. Fates, where the story is so bad even the haters can't agree on what to hate.

[Thane]

Corrin and Azura are my two most disliked characters in Fates, and I really don't want to defend Conquest Corrin, but I always feel like so much of the hate is misinformed, thus we have me acting as some sort of defense attorney. Oh, woe is me... Aside from a couple of decisions that Corrin probably should not have made, the story of Conquest is carried by other people who do stupid things far more often. Namely, the rest of the royals, Azura withholding the crystal ball from the rest of the siblings, and even Gunter! Also, Garon decides to invade, not Corrin.

But you left the debate yesterday. Understandable since you were busy, but to then come back to the same thread the day afterwards and repeat the same thing I tried to discuss with you without adressing my arguments feels a bit cheap. Not very defense attorney-like if you ask me.

To not derail this thread further, please PM me your answers. I'm curious to hear where you get this conviction from.

[The DanMan]

Looks like Serenes' Law went into full effect.

I personally gave up on discussing the game's plot. It's a horse that's been beaten to death so many times that there's only a fine white powder left that is what's left of it's bones.

Everything that can be said has been said.

[Slyfox]

But you left the debate yesterday. Understandable since you were busy, but to then come back to the same thread the day afterwards and repeat the same thing I tried to discuss with you without adressing my arguments feels a bit cheap. Not very defense attorney-like if you ask me.

To not derail this thread further, please PM me your answers. I'm curious to hear where you get this conviction from.

I do apologize. However, I did say I would be back, didn't I? Abvora said something that invigorated me, that's all. The last thing I said was more of a general thing I wanted to say to everyone.

Anyway, there are parts I agree with in your various arguments, but I do get the feeling that we are going all over the place. It feels like we are now arguing aspects of the story that are completely hypothetical and perhaps irrelevant. Regardless, I'll gladly resume this debate in PMs with you. I'll start with your four point counter-argument a bit later today!

[Topaz Light]

I don't think it's fair to all of us who have spent a lot of time explaining in great detail what was wrong with Fates' story to chalk up our feelings to disappointment because it didn't live up to the hype. It's the single worst written video game I've ever personally played, and that anyone, anywhere, thought this was okay to release in this clearly unfinished state is actually offensive to me. The game's writing shows a clear lack of respect for the players, the video game industry as a whole and most importantly the developers themselves.

To be clear, I'm not really trying to say that that's the only reason people don't like it. I just meant to say that I think that the betrayal of expectations is the reason why many people are as bitter about it as they are. The story being an abomination against the art of narrative-weaving and the breaking of Intelligent Systems' implicit promise that the story would be really good ended up being sort of a one-two punch of negative turnouts that compounded each others' impact, I think.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Abvora]

1. I actually think the hate isn't all that shallow in Azura's case. She has a main character status, but only spouts exposition, is ship-teased with Corrin 24/7 and is basically ignored by everyone else. Those are already four big reasons, that when thrown together, can get people's blood boiling. Plus the Conquest crystal ball fiasco.

I'll disagree with the "spouts exposition" part, at least outside of CQ. BR has an entire subplot revolving around her powers and REV has the thing with her mom. It's only on CQ that she's kind of oddly placed (not to mention that crystal ball thing, which is pretty bad as you said). And she does get interaction with people other than Corrin--Takumi, mostly, but the other royals too. Except Hinoka. Hinoka's kind of just there.

But in any case--my problem wasn't that he hated her for the plot involvement, but for the Ship Tease. It reminds me of Awakening days where Chrobin fangirls would flip out on Sumia for no reason other than the game pushing her with Chrom, which is shallow and bitter.

And, since I forgot to include this in my last post, and so this one isn't completely off-topic--as a whole, I would still put Fates in the top 5 Fire Emblem games, since other than its story and a few questionable decisions (cough kids cough) I thought it delivered excellently.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Abvora