General opinions on fates and how it ranks compared to the series

[NekoKnight]

Perhaps so, but there are a few things that stick out in my mind as being particularly odd that would've made more sense in what we assume the original premise of Conquest to be. Granted, I know it might just be my overactive imagination going wild because of an unfinished script, but hear me out.

1) In chapter 1, Corrin stands up to Garon trying to save people they don't know. Leo then bails them out and Xander plays along - this goes against Conquest later where we're told Corrin or the siblings can't do anything to oppose Garon, and it especially clashes with Leo's comment about turning pretending to obeying orders into an artform.

2) In the beginning of Conquest, you go on a random mission to the Ice Tribe and then...nothing. If they were writing a revolution plot, Corrin would need allies like the people from the Ice Tribe, yet as it stands this is nothing but a diversion from the main story.

I would mention Corrin's utter lack of plan aside from wanting to end the war quickly but ends up leading the charge, but I'm tempted to say that's more the result of bad writing than anything else. I realize these two points might not mean much, but they could hint at what the plot was originally going to look like.

Operation No Plan seems like the biggest hint at an alternate story direction. Why would the writers have Kamui announce that he's going to end the war his own way if the rest of the game demonstrates his inability to end the conflict or really make any major difference? I don't remember exactly when the name "Conquest" was announced but in Japanese the game is simply called "Fire Emblem If: Black Night Kingdom (Nohr)" so perhaps it wasn't always going to be a straight up invasion story.

Apparently 'Gooron' was an idea by Kibayashi so maybe the 'magic throne' and all the terrible writing attached to that were in the original draft...

[KMT4ever]

Perhaps so, but there are a few things that stick out in my mind as being particularly odd that would've made more sense in what we assume the original premise of Conquest to be. Granted, I know it might just be my overactive imagination going wild because of an unfinished script, but hear me out.

1) In chapter 1, Corrin stands up to Garon trying to save people they don't know. Leo then bails them out and Xander plays along - this goes against Conquest later where we're told Corrin or the siblings can't do anything to oppose Garon, and it especially clashes with Leo's comment about turning pretending to obeying orders into an artform.

I interpreted Leo's comment as them being able to make it look like they're trying hard when they're really not (i.e. searching for the dancers in unlikely places). The stuff about not being able to oppose Garon is more in reference to outright disobeying him (i.e. not burning Cheve to the ground).

2) In the beginning of Conquest, you go on a random mission to the Ice Tribe and then...nothing. If they were writing a revolution plot, Corrin would need allies like the people from the Ice Tribe, yet as it stands this is nothing but a diversion from the main story.

I agree with this. My original impression was that we'd start off Conquest serving Nohr, but around 1/3 to 1/2 of the way through the game rebelling (Cheve would have been a good point) and trying to overthrow Garon. My Castle actually would have made a lot of sense in this context, as it's the perfect base for a rebellion to hide from the Nohrian army.

To be honest my biggest gripe with Fates, even more than the crappy writing and total lack of actual choices besides sparing/executing Shura in Conquest (which could have had interesting connotations given how Mokushu comes right after that), was the godawful world-building.

[spoiler=Very Large]

At no point in the game is this ever shown in its entirety. Even this doesn't have national borders. How big is Mokushu relative to Hoshido? Cheve to Nohr? Awakening at least used pre-existing continents and kept all of the points visible relative to each other. Shadow Dragon suffered from the same issue of not showing the world map enough, but it had inter-level narration to keep us informed on what was going on when we moved to that next spot.

We're given essentially no information on the countries beyond super generic "Hoshido = good, Nohr = evil" stuff that makes this supposedly deep story incredibly shallow. Leo's monologue in BR18 about Hoshidans being soft and Silas and Ryoma's conversation in BR22 about how deprived Nohr is made me remember that there was actual potential for a morally gray story.

[spoiler=Some ideas]These are my very sketchy thoughts on how to make Fates a gray story.

• Up until about 15 years ago, Nohr and Hoshido were both peaceful, prosperous nations, although Hoshido was better off. Garon and Sumeragi considered each other friends, and the people of both nations were close.
• Starting about 15 years ago, hard times fell on Nohr. Over the next decade a gradual process of failing crops and gloomy weather turned it into the dark, bleak place it is now. Both nations see this as some sort of divine punishment for some unknown crime.
• Eventually Garon requests humanitarian aid, which Hoshido declines. This is seen as a massive betrayal in Nohr. Garon becomes increasingly aggressive in demanding aid from Hoshido, raiding farms in the Hoshidan border territories with the backing of his starving people. Sumeragi responds by fortifying the border, only to be met with a full-scale invasion.
• In the chaos a young Corrin is captured and held hostage, even as the Nohrians are pushed back. Garon tries to trade them for aid, only to be rejected by a furious Sumeragi, who in turn demands Nohr demilitarize and return Corrin before aid will be considered. Garon refuses and decides to raise Corrin as his own child.
• Corrin grows up as part of the family. Garon, while strict and sometimes harsh, makes it clear that he loves his children and wishes to restore Nohr for their sakes.
• By the time of the game another invasion of Hoshido is planned. This takes up the first few levels, leading up to the decision point where the Hoshidan siblings reveal the kidnapping.
  • Leo and Takumi's generation grows up with an ingrained distrust/hatred of the other country, wishing to defeat and harshly punish it.
  • Xander and Ryoma remember their countries' former friendship and recognize that both sides have fault.
  • Camilla and Hinoka straddle the line, convinced that the other side is in the wrong but accepting that it's not really full of selfish/greedy people.
  • Elise and Sakura are more or less the same as they currently are, kind and peaceful.
• Birthright: Corrin deserts to Hoshido due to revulsion at both the kidnapping and what the Nohrian army is doing in its occupied Hoshidan territory. From there Corrin works to defeat Nohr and create peace.
• Conquest: Corrin sides with Nohr on the grounds that Hoshido's selfishness drove Nohr to desperation and recognition that their Nohrian family has treated them with love despite them being from Hoshido. From there Corrin participates in the campaign to defeat Hoshido and save Nohr from destitution.
• I'd like to institute a chain of decisions (usually whether to be ruthless or merciful) that would affect the type of resistance you face.
  • If you're especially cruel, the opposing nation rallies in a bloody war that ends with a very embittered younger sister taking the throne of a utterly defeated nation.
  • If you're especially kind, you can convince your nation to resolve the war, which leads to you having to deal with hardliners in your own nation and particularly your younger brother from the opposing nation, who launches a personal crusade with his own hardliners.
  • If you're somewhere in the middle, the war ends with a clear victory for your nation, the other nation being weakened and resentful, but not destroyed. Your older brother takes the throne.

Good? Bad?

[Pixelman]

Maybe the thread should be called "Post your positive reviews of FE Fates" then.

Imagine your own 6 paragraphs of dismissive rudeness and read them to yourself in place of me typing them here.

Fucking christ dude

[shadowofchaos]

dismissive rudeness

How in the name of all that is holy is that post in any way "dismissive rudeness"?

Tang's post is more saintly than any reasonable person would respond to you with.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that SerenesForest.net of all places praises Fates.

If anything the player base is pretty much likely to roast any FE game not named Genealogy of the Holy War.

Edited September 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Tangerine]

Maybe the thread should be called "Post your positive reviews of FE Fates" then.

Imagine your own 6 paragraphs of dismissive rudeness and read them to yourself in place of me typing them here.

Criticism of Fates is allowed where appropriate (like this thread). You seem to be under the impression that you and your beliefs are above criticism. This is an open discussion forum; by posting a "review" somewhere that a lot of fans commune, you accept any feedback and counterarguments you receive in response (within reason, of course). Allow me to remind you that your entire spat started with you replying to other users' posts and disagreeing with them.

If you don't want to have a discussion then don't post on an open discussion forum. Start a blog and disable comments.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Tangerine

[Time the Crestfallen]

Imagine your own 6 paragraphs of dismissive rudeness and read them to yourself in place of me typing them here.

Hypocrisy thy name is...

How in the name of all that is holy is that post in any way "dismissive rudeness"?

Tang's post is more saintly than any reasonable person would respond to you with.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that SerenesForest.net of all places praises Fates.

If anything the player base is pretty much likely to roast any FE game not named Genealogy of the Holy War.

Guilty as charged, although I will admit that they're are some balance issues *cough cough* Ced *cough cough*.

[Alastor15243]

If anything the player base is pretty much likely to roast any FE game not named Genealogy of the Holy War.

*Deep breath*

Genealogy of the Holy War has maps that are way too large, crippled the variety of its own brilliantly innovative child system by turning what is in all other games a fundamental game mechanic into a limited-access skill, and was balanced by converting the arbitrary shrieks of a rabid howler monkey into Morse code.

None of the games are safe.

None of them.

[Florete]

For the record, I don't think ckc22 was calling Tangerine's post "dismissive rudeness." I think what that line meant was, "I don't want to type my own dismissively rude post all out, so imagine I did."

None of the games are safe.

None of them.

As it should be. Edited September 8, 2016 by Red Fox of Fire

[Slyfox]

Honestly, it was a huge letdown that we did not get the Conquest that was advertised. I'm more inclined to believe that it was deceptive marketing, plain and simple. Nintendo isn't above that.

When you take a step back, Birthright and Conquest are the same story, with a different coat of paint. Revelation is also the same story for more than half the game, and a watered down and rushed version at that. Every villain remains the same, events repeat themselves a ton, etc. The chapter 6 choice is whether you want black clothing or white clothing.

Fates is closer to how the Pokemon games operate, instead of the Oracle Zelda games (which were significantly different in many aspects).

[shadowofchaos]

None of the games are safe.

None of them.

It was a joke, dude. I knew that. Edited September 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[SalShich10N]

General Opinion:

A mixed bag between:

-Trying to appeal to all the fans, both old and new

-Serious attempt to squeeze as much cash from them as possible

When it comes to gameplay it fixed pretty much all of the issues from Awakening, however only one of the three routes made proper use of this. When it comes to story writers were both too coward to live up to the very premise they had set, and were too busy trying to sell you the rest of the routes to make any good from it. The setting was good, but the world was poorly built and the continent doesn't even has a name, and the map is a mess if you try to make logic out the movement of your party (Yeah right, from the Bottomless Canyon to the Opera House in the same night). The OST was great.

How it stands in the series:

Conquest was very fun, I hope it's design becomes a standard for the future of the series... aahhhh, how I wish. I rate Conquest in high tier, along with PoR, FE12, FE7, FE4 and FE5 with its daring map design and good replayablity value. I rate Birthright mid tier, along with FE11, FE8, RD, FE6 and Awakening for being overall good, but with either jarring flaws or, in this case, being just tasteless and flavorless. And I rate revelations at low, along with FE2 for being boring maps, infurating at times, terrible balance and having a terrible story and being one of the overall worst experiences I've had with this series.

Edited September 8, 2016 by SalShich10N

[shadowofchaos]

While the gimmicks in revelations weren't as well implemented as Conquest, I liked their ideas.

Like the rooms with the promoted and unpromoted shifts.

I just wished your units had that happen to them too.

Reiterating, I liked the ideas. Not in practice. I mean, I felt like the fog of war was fair in the early chapter.

Edited September 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[NekoKnight]

Reiterating, I liked the ideas. Not in practice. I mean, I felt like the fog of war was fair in the early chapter.

Fair? Sure. Fun? Oh gods no. You need to proceed cautiously due to a lack of vision, on a big map with tons of winding tunnels and asshole "return warp" tiles. You also have too few units to use so it's the least efficient map in any Fire Emblem game. It took me over 70 turns to clear that out.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Fair? Sure. Fun? Oh gods no. You need to proceed cautiously due to a lack of vision, on a big map with tons of winding tunnels and asshole "return warp" tiles. You also have too few units to use so it's the least efficient map in any Fire Emblem game. It took me over 70 turns to clear that out.

You have Dark Souls in your sig and you expect games to be fun?! For shame! A true Dark souls player wants to get fucked until they think the game is fun, like Stockholm Syndrome.

Really? I didn't have many problems with that map even when I was on Lunatic. Unless you mean it's boring and tedious as opposed to difficult.

[Abvora]

Fair? Sure. Fun? Oh gods no. You need to proceed cautiously due to a lack of vision, on a big map with tons of winding tunnels and asshole "return warp" tiles. You also have too few units to use so it's the least efficient map in any Fire Emblem game. It took me over 70 turns to clear that out.

It's not too hard to find the return warp tiles because all of them have thickets nearby. And yeah, you only have 3 units, but even with that in account it's not particularly challenging if you use the chokepoints well. I enjoyed it, at least a lot more than I enjoyed that freaking snow map.

Even swooping around to clear out both paths (for that treasure), I still beat it by turn 30. It's not particularly hard unless you play on Lunatic with a -DEF Corrin.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Abvora

[NekoKnight]

You have Dark Souls in your sig and you expect games to be fun?! For shame! A true Dark souls player wants to get fucked until they think the game is fun, like Stockholm Syndrome.

Really? I didn't have many problems with that map even when I was on Lunatic. Unless you mean it's boring and tedious as opposed to difficult.

Boring and tedious. I'll take atmospheric, semi-consensual butt-fucking from Dark Souls over Revelation's maps any day. Chapter 7 and 8 of Revelation are horrible because you fight a LOT of enemies and you only have 3 troops to use (and only one of those is very good at fighting).

0/10, would rather fight the Capra Demon again.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Boring and tedious. I'll take atmospheric, semi-consensual butt-fucking from Dark Souls over Revelation's maps any day. Chapter 7 and 8 of Revelation are horrible because you fight a LOT of enemies and you only have 3 troops to use (and only one of those is very good at fighting).

0/10, would rather fight the Capra Demon again.

Okay, let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

*Shudders*

I get what you're saying though. It's not particularly fun, but I've never been that fussed. My Corrin's usually wind up pretty yoked, so they never felt too annoying.

[shadowofchaos]

I'm probably a minority, but hacking crap in those gimmick maps is an unintended replay benefit I guess.

But at face value, I did actually enjoy Revelations besides that damn snow map. And the inferior replay of Conquest Wind tribe map.

[Funky Tim]

To be honest my biggest gripe with Fates, even more than the crappy writing and total lack of actual choices besides sparing/executing Shura in Conquest (which could have had interesting connotations given how Mokushu comes right after that), was the godawful world-building.

[spoiler=Very Large]

At no point in the game is this ever shown in its entirety. Even this doesn't have national borders. How big is Mokushu relative to Hoshido? Cheve to Nohr? Awakening at least used pre-existing continents and kept all of the points visible relative to each other. Shadow Dragon suffered from the same issue of not showing the world map enough, but it had inter-level narration to keep us informed on what was going on when we moved to that next spot.

We're given essentially no information on the countries beyond super generic "Hoshido = good, Nohr = evil" stuff that makes this supposedly deep story incredibly shallow. Leo's monologue in BR18 about Hoshidans being soft and Silas and Ryoma's conversation in BR22 about how deprived Nohr is made me remember that there was actual potential for a morally gray story.

[spoiler=Some ideas]These are my very sketchy thoughts on how to make Fates a gray story.

• Up until about 15 years ago, Nohr and Hoshido were both peaceful, prosperous nations, although Hoshido was better off. Garon and Sumeragi considered each other friends, and the people of both nations were close.
• Starting about 15 years ago, hard times fell on Nohr. Over the next decade a gradual process of failing crops and gloomy weather turned it into the dark, bleak place it is now. Both nations see this as some sort of divine punishment for some unknown crime.
• Eventually Garon requests humanitarian aid, which Hoshido declines. This is seen as a massive betrayal in Nohr. Garon becomes increasingly aggressive in demanding aid from Hoshido, raiding farms in the Hoshidan border territories with the backing of his starving people. Sumeragi responds by fortifying the border, only to be met with a full-scale invasion.
• In the chaos a young Corrin is captured and held hostage, even as the Nohrians are pushed back. Garon tries to trade them for aid, only to be rejected by a furious Sumeragi, who in turn demands Nohr demilitarize and return Corrin before aid will be considered. Garon refuses and decides to raise Corrin as his own child.
• Corrin grows up as part of the family. Garon, while strict and sometimes harsh, makes it clear that he loves his children and wishes to restore Nohr for their sakes.
• By the time of the game another invasion of Hoshido is planned. This takes up the first few levels, leading up to the decision point where the Hoshidan siblings reveal the kidnapping.
  • Leo and Takumi's generation grows up with an ingrained distrust/hatred of the other country, wishing to defeat and harshly punish it.
  • Xander and Ryoma remember their countries' former friendship and recognize that both sides have fault.
  • Camilla and Hinoka straddle the line, convinced that the other side is in the wrong but accepting that it's not really full of selfish/greedy people.
  • Elise and Sakura are more or less the same as they currently are, kind and peaceful.
• Birthright: Corrin deserts to Hoshido due to revulsion at both the kidnapping and what the Nohrian army is doing in its occupied Hoshidan territory. From there Corrin works to defeat Nohr and create peace.
• Conquest: Corrin sides with Nohr on the grounds that Hoshido's selfishness drove Nohr to desperation and recognition that their Nohrian family has treated them with love despite them being from Hoshido. From there Corrin participates in the campaign to defeat Hoshido and save Nohr from destitution.
• I'd like to institute a chain of decisions (usually whether to be ruthless or merciful) that would affect the type of resistance you face.
  • If you're especially cruel, the opposing nation rallies in a bloody war that ends with a very embittered younger sister taking the throne of a utterly defeated nation.
  • If you're especially kind, you can convince your nation to resolve the war, which leads to you having to deal with hardliners in your own nation and particularly your younger brother from the opposing nation, who launches a personal crusade with his own hardliners.
  • If you're somewhere in the middle, the war ends with a clear victory for your nation, the other nation being weakened and resentful, but not destroyed. Your older brother takes the throne.

Good? Bad?

Man, now I wish that was how they had done it. I don't think the last three paragraphs about the choices would have even been necessary, though I do enjoy the idea.