"Nice guys"

[NekoKnight]

Recently I was watching an anime (Re: Zero, for those curious) which tackled a phenomenon rather common in real life society, that is, "nice guys". As a reformed "nice guy" myself, I'd like to discuss this topic with you guys. Sorry for the mini-essay.

For starters, the definition. A "nice guy" is someone (frequently male) who is 'nice' to another in the hopes of these positive feelings being reciprocated. What separates "nice" and true kindness is the entitled belief that the other person owes you for your 'gifts', and if they don't respond with equal or greater affection, they are in the wrong (which leads to other terms like "friend-zone").

While "nice guys" are rightfully scorned, I think we need to take a look at where they come from. I believe the origin of this phenomenon is actually one of humanity's greatest and simplest principles on empathy; the Golden Rule (treat others as you wish to be treated). Sounds pretty straightforward right? Be kind to people because you want them to be kind to you. But here's where it get corrupted. I think many people, myself included heard this principle and translated it into "be kind to people, and it's in their social contract to pay you back". This behavior is often spurned by the consuming desire for romantic feelings being reciprocated. For many people who lack emotional maturity and social experience, being 'kind' is the only way they know how to get into another person's heart.

The obvious problem with this mentality is entitlement. You don't respect the other person's autonomy and force them (in your mind) into a social contract they never agreed to. No matter how much you want someone to like you, you can't force them to reciprocate your feelings. Part of this is not respecting others as people, but another part is not respecting yourself. If, for example, you thought the other person wasn't being as good a friend as you think you deserve, the mature thing to do is walk away. But "nice guys" can't walk away, they want to keep at their behavior until they get their "dues".

It's easy to say "don't be an entitled ass-hat" in order to combat this mental-pitfall, but I feel that this topic (the basics of human interaction) needs to be better taught to the youth. I had plenty of people tell me to be kind but I didn't understand the real meaning of kindness or respect of others' feelings, so those moral lessons were misappropriated.

What do you think? What's the cause and solution to this social phenomenon?

Edited September 12, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Tryhard]

I think the bigger issue is that quite a lot of people that refer to themselves as nice or kind often aren't those things at all, or are only pretending to be so for an ulterior motive.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Tryhard

[NekoKnight]

I think the bigger issue is that quite a lot of people that refer to themselves as nice or kind often aren't those things at all, or are only pretending to be so for an ulterior motive.

Although many people feign niceness/kindness (even if by now, self-defining as "nice" has been thoroughly discredited) for ulterior motives, I think there are as many if not more who genuinely believe themselves to be kind, when their behavior is in-fact selfish and passive aggressive.

The other value of "nice guys" that I forgot to mention is that they believe "kindness" is the singular defining element in what makes someone attractive, for want of all other positive qualities.

Edited September 12, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Rezzy]

I can post more when not on mobile, but being nice is only a starting point. In prospective mates, I also want someone who shares interests with me and has a compatible personality.

[EricaofRenais]

I have known one guy who was a very nice person and that was just the way he was (my grandfather), I remember when he died and my mom and me went to get cookies at the cookie store for my grandmother we had to tell the ladies that worked there that he died and they cried too, that always stuck with me that his goodness made such an impression on other people that they shed a tear for him even though he only bought cookies there. But yeah there are a lot of people who are only nice because they want something and if they don't get what they want they can become very mean.

[shadowofchaos]

The "true" definition, I believe, is a title that is given to you by others.

You don't refer to yourself as one, as you're pretty much bragging about it. Which ruins the spirit of the true definition.

A real "nice guy" doesn't care about reciprocation.

Actually, let me rephrase that:

They hope for reciprocation in the relationship and understand that people have their own will. Whether it is romantic or a friendship.

It's definitely a concept of moral fiber beyond the understanding of many males in our society. Which has led to the common, negative definition of it.

The friend zone should, in my opinion, be a joke term. And never used in serious contexts. Because it's a stupid concept in serious contexts.

Edited September 12, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Master Thunderblade]

As someone with Asperger Syndrome, I never truly understood social interactions and the expectations existing around them. It seems that there are some sort of unwritten but expected rules that I'm not able to grasp.
If someone gives you a birthday present, are you obliged to give one back? Most people would tell you that is indeed the case, common courtesy even... But when you think about it, you don't explicitly ask for a birthday present, (at least in my case) and yet someone else is "forcing" you to give him/her a birthday present even though you have no say in the matter and he/she never told you they wanted one back in the first place, it is just expected somehow. I'm not a very materialistic person and most of the time I get stuff for my birthday that I do very little with. I'm not very good in imagining myself as someone else, and thus I'm terrible at picking birthday presents. In addition to the stress of politely accepting a birthday present I might not find very useful, I have to deal with the anxiety of picking something fitting for someone I can't imagine myself as.
When I honestly say that I don't want a birthday present or refuse to accept the gift, it is somehow seen as strange, rude and generally not socially accepted. I get that it is not about the present itself but about the gesture, so I force myself to play along and be polite but I can't help but feel that something isn't quite in order during the whole process. I just doesn't feel right to be annoyed when you recieve something or when searching for something to make another person happy, and I can't help but wonder if this makes me an unempathic person. I rather repay the gift in some other way that I'm actually good at...
You could argue that posing to be nice in order to receive the same is a somewhat similar proces to giving gifts and expecting them in return. That being said, maybe this analogy of mine is flawed, since the gifter only has the best of intentions (but then again most "nice" persons aren't aware of their "niceness"). You could say that the problem lies in the norms of society itself or even the receiver not being able to adapt to said society, depending on your viewpoint.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Masterthunderblade

[Dandragon]

Who exactly is this "nice guy" in Re:Zero? Could you specify that?

[Thane]

I believe the cause comes from living in a somewhat secluded environment where you don't have many friends, if any, and most of your social interactions, and as a result positive feedback, comes from your family. Most nice guys I've known or seen on the internet seem to be rather lonely or just hang out with people who think very similarly.

If you don't spend time with people your age, especially not with people of both sexes, then you won't really learn how to interact with people naturally. Nice guys seem to rarely spend time with women, at least not in a situation where they're nothing but that one annoying friend who follows people around like a lost puppy, so they seem to place women on pedestals, rather than seeing them as ordinary people.

This might make me sound like an old man, but I also believe a lot of movies, manga and video games can influence someone who doesn't handle social interactions well in a negative manner. Romance is hard to write well, and many times giant leaps in logic have to be made to make the story come together. People might also see certain stereotypes as true and omnipresent in real life when they're actually a small minority, like the dudebro quarterback who's got zero redeeming qualities aside from his physical attributes, which gets painted as the 'enemy' of women by nice guys. At least, that's something I've observed, but please feel free to tell me if I'm spewing nonsense.

Also, NekoKnight, "phenomenon" is a Greek word, hence the plural form is "phenomena"; don't conjugate it when you don't have to.

[Master Thunderblade]

Who exactly is this "nice guy" in Re:Zero? Could you specify that?

Subaru I presume.

He kind of confessed to being one in episode 18. (the one with Rem's confession)

Edited due to possible spoilers, sorry about that...

Edited September 14, 2016 by Masterthunderblade

[CyborgZeta]

I can post more when not on mobile, but being nice is only a starting point. In prospective mates, I also want someone who shares interests with me and has a compatible personality.

I agree with this.

Being nice by itself is, well, nice; but niceness alone isn't enough to warrant special attention. At least from my perspective.

[NekoKnight]

Subaru I presume. He kind of confessed to being one in episode 18. (the one with Rem's confession)

I'm only up to episode 13 (no spoilers pls). But yes, the answer is Subaru. From the beginning of the series, Subaru becomes attracted to Emilia and tries to save her. While keeping everyone alive is one of his goals, he's also constantly trying to find ways to earn Emilia's affection. This culminates in episode 13 where he goes against Emilia's explicit wishes and accompanies her to an important event, where he proceeds to make an ass of himself and Emilia. When Emilia criticizes him, saying that all of his actions he did for himself, not for her, he shouts back that she has no right to complain because she "owes him more than she could ever repay."

This might make me sound like an old man, but I also believe a lot of movies, manga and video games can influence someone who doesn't handle social interactions well in a negative manner. Romance is hard to write well, and many times giant leaps in logic have to be made to make the story come together. People might also see certain stereotypes as true and omnipresent in real life when they're actually a small minority, like the dudebro quarterback who's got zero redeeming qualities aside from his physical attributes, which gets painted as the 'enemy' of women by nice guys. At least, that's something I've observed, but please feel free to tell me if I'm spewing nonsense.

No, this is actually on point. Works of fiction often treat romance as a predetermined thing. This guy is the male lead and this girl is the female lead. They'll spend time together and provided he's not mean to her, they should fall in love right? This is especially common in anime where anime protagonists can get lots of beautiful girls simply for being kind and friendly. It's easy to see how a socially inept individual would see all of that and deduce that the secret to romance is persistence and being nice.

Also, NekoKnight, "phenomenon" is a Greek word, hence the plural form is "phenomena"; don't conjugate it when you don't have to.

Hah, I edited my post so it is now YOU who looks silly!

Thanks for the correction. I should stop making these posts late at night when I need to be sleeping.

Edited September 13, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Nanami Touko]

I won't spoil any specifics for re:zero but it gets better tm

as for the topic people just think being nice = being owed and being owed = liking them back and stuff

it's kinda silly.

[Augestein]

Being a nice guy is a rather double-edged sword as well as being a rude scumbag. Honestly, I agree with what Shadow was saying, "Nice Guy" is a title that is bestowed upon you by others. Nice guys go well out of their way to help without reciprocation.

As for your post, I don't think it's necessarily that nice people expect something back in return for doing something nice, and it's not some sort of forced societal contract, but rather, rude people or opportunist take advantage of a person's kindness. It's just taught to be kind to people by virtue that if you're unkind, you shouldn't expect people to be kind to you. If a person is unkind in response to kindness, you don't own them anything, but when a person is kind, while you don't have to respond with kindness, there's no direct benefit to being openly hostile, and can actually have detrimental consequences.

[Raguna]

I'll probably come back to this topic when I'm not on mobile but Rey did a fair assessment of the "nice guy" dilemma so I'll gloss over that for now. Speaking from a personal standpoint I've been called polite and cordial but never truly a nice guy maybe because my formality supersedes my kindness but to others I've seen it can get pretty ugly. I concur that this usually affects lonely males or men with low self esteem and lack of social prowess. They're human just like you and I and desire to be accepted especially by those he considers worth it but the way they go about it ends up pretty self destructive.

From what my family also tells me, it is also due to the generational egocentrism that pervades the new generation since entitlement isn't actually new issue. I'd say that "nice guys" consciously avoid being greedy and entitled but subconsciously when they are rejected they end up wanting to justify all that wasted effort with a reason that is usually very self centered which they believed and put upon themselves but the other never knew.

The most intriguing part that I can say is that even girls suffer from this but it's usually not something very noticeable as they go about their own "nice girl" process. In most cases, they just end up trying to look perfect and intriguing but by the end come off as rather bland and awkward as opposed to possibly annoying from the male side. I could be wrong on this part but as long as I'm understood then I think the message did its job.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Raguna

[Nym]

Saying ''I'm a nice guy'' is stupid. It's like saying ''I can walk'' like yeah, there's nothing special about it, everybody can walk as much as we can all be nice to each other.

What YOU do with your kindness is the key: if you use it at some kind of trophey (like Subaru did), you will look an idiot at the end.

[Rezzy]

Being a Nice Guy is like driving. Everyone thinks they're a good driver.

[Refa]

I'm a pretty bad driver, honestly. Although I don't think I'm particularly nice either, so maybe it fits!!!!

[UNLEASH IT]

This "nice guys don't get girls" nonsense is a fucking myth, along with the "friendzone".

Re:Zero? More like REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE:Zero.

Edited September 13, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[NekoKnight]

This "nice guys don't get girls" nonsense is a fucking myth, along with the "friendzone".

Re:Zero? More like REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE:Zero.

From what my family also tells me, it is also due to the generational egocentrism that pervades the new generation since entitlement isn't actually new issue. I'd say that "nice guys" consciously avoid being greedy and entitled but subconsciously when they are rejected they end up wanting to justify all that wasted effort with a reason that is usually very self centered which they believed and put upon themselves but the other never knew.

Ego is definitely a part of why some people define themselves as nice. This especially ties into how the "nice guy" views other people. Romantic rivals are all assholes who couldn't possibly have traits a rational girl would like. A girl who takes interest in someone not you is a bitch or a slut. The "nice guy" himself needs nothing other than his niceness to deserve the girl. He doesn't need to improve himself or be interesting.

Real life? More like gg no re.

As for your post, I don't think it's necessarily that nice people expect something back in return for doing something nice, and it's not some sort of forced societal contract, but rather, rude people or opportunist take advantage of a person's kindness. It's just taught to be kind to people by virtue that if you're unkind, you shouldn't expect people to be kind to you. If a person is unkind in response to kindness, you don't own them anything, but when a person is kind, while you don't have to respond with kindness, there's no direct benefit to being openly hostile, and can actually have detrimental consequences.

There are two kinds of "nice guys". There are the manipulative type that are more consciously self-serving and there are the type that don't even realize that what they are doing isn't nice. My opening post is to theorize how people can justify their own behavior and frustration when it comes to rejection. I think the number of people who empathize with the protagonist of Watamote really emphasizes just how many people want to be socially capable, but can't due to their awkwardness or other vices.

Edited September 13, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Chen]

calling somebody a nice guy is basically a very nice way of saying that they're boring and have no special qualities imo. when the only thing people can describe you with is >nice guy then you probably have about as much personality as a wet stone. who just wants to talk to a NICE GUY? A NICE GUY? Nothing else striking about them, just a nice guy?

another thing is yeah, ulterior motive is pretty important. I think most people can tell when people are being nice just for the purpose of unzipping their pants and i guarantee you, 99% of the time, find this creepy, unwelcome, and it does the complete opposite of what it's supposed to do. I was overhearing a conversation in one of my classes today and a girl was talking about a boy who offered to take her to her classes and throw away her lunch for her (when the trash can was a hand away). that absolute reaction of fear!

[Thane]

I see a lot of people wanting to excuse these people. Keep in mind they're not all just harmless teenagers; a lot of them are adults as well. However, even when you're 15, you should know better than to try to manipulate people for your own selfish needs and desires. I can sympathize with these people, and I believe a lot of them just need a wake-up call, but to say it's somehow society's fault is irresponsible and trivializes how bad some of these individuals can get.

Being a nice guy is a rather double-edged sword as well as being a rude scumbag. Honestly, I agree with what Shadow was saying, "Nice Guy" is a title that is bestowed upon you by others. Nice guys go well out of their way to help without reciprocation.

The nice guys we're talking about may help someone out without reciprocation, but that doesn't mean that's not what they're aiming for. Most nice guys I've known or read about are manipulative people who don't respect a girl's boundaries and think they can weasel their way into getting a reward for their basic human decency.

Of course there are genuinely nice people who get taken advantage of by others, but that's really not what we're discussing here. Nice guys create some kind of favor-for-reward system in their minds and ignore the other person's autonomy and wishes in a vain attempt at trying to score.

There's a whole, very depressing subreddit for some of these mind-boggling interactions. Here's just one, albeit unusually bad, out of many: http://i.imgur.com/YCeJrqZ.png

No, this is actually on point. Works of fiction often treat romance as a predetermined thing. This guy is the male lead and this girl is the female lead. They'll spend time together and provided he's not mean to her, they should fall in love right? This is especially common in anime where anime protagonists can get lots of beautiful girls simply for being kind and friendly. It's easy to see how a socially inept individual would see all of that and deduce that the secret to romance is persistence and being nice.

Someone should tell them that a lot of the romantic gestures we see in the movies can be creepy in real life, especially if you're not already in an established relationship. Also, never letting someone be alone is even worse.

I don't know enough about anime to give an informed statement, but that's also the impression I've gotten. Someone will eventually realize just how special this totally average guy is, and it just so happens to be the most beautiful, popular, intelligent girl in school who falls for him after a brief conversation where she got a glimpse of his true, completely unremarkable self.

Do you mind me asking what turned you into a nice guy, if you've got any idea?

[Tryhard]

for the purpose of unzipping their pants and i guarantee you, 99% of the time, find this creepy, unwelcome, and it does the complete opposite of what it's supposed to do.

I knew I was doing something wrong.

Sadly I have to agree with Thane, a lot of people that say that sort of thing seem pretty manipulative. Perhaps there is some justification for it, but you can't act like that, and I expect it'll be a lesson that at least some of them will eventually learn. If they spent the time critically evaluating about why it is going wrong instead of ruing it, they could work towards self-improvement.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

Kindness is not something that is a bartering tool. Women are people, and people aren't some sort of prize to be earned after doing X amount of things. "Nice guys" violate both of these, and that's not cool.

[NekoKnight]

There's a whole, very depressing subreddit for some of these mind-boggling interactions. Here's just one, albeit unusually bad, out of many: http://i.imgur.com/YCeJrqZ.png

I don't know enough about anime to give an informed statement, but that's also the impression I've gotten. Someone will eventually realize just how special this totally average guy is, and it just so happens to be the most beautiful, popular, intelligent girl in school who falls for him after a brief conversation where she got a glimpse of his true, completely unremarkable self.

A common element, particularly in 'harem' anime is an unremarkable protagonist winning girls by helping them through their insecurities and problems in the most baseline way possible.

"As the class president, people have such high expectations of me and I feel like I'll crack from the pressure!"

"It's okay, you don't need to be perfect."

"Wow, your simple advice and basic concern for my happiness has filled me with desire. I'll now tag along with you despite us having no common interests"

That's...how real life works...right?

Do you mind me asking what turned you into a nice guy, if you've got any idea?

I used to be a "nice guy" because of low self-esteem and passive-aggressive behavior. I would desire friends and relationships while simultaneously believing I wasn't worthy of them. Using 'niceness' as my selling point was a crutch and it was a long and gradual process to grow out of that. I had to forge a stronger identity and accept that if some people didn't like me back, I had to let it go.

Based on my personal experiences, I do think that some people are capable of realizing their faults and growing out of them. For every creep, jerk and psycho out there, there is also a lonely and awkward child trying to understand people. Obviously, it's not easy for the people they have to interact with, but I sympathize with them.

Edited September 13, 2016 by NekoKnight