Feminism discussion

[Rezzy]

Rule of thumb:

-Wizards are balls-to-the-wall powerful at high levels, but suffer in terms of early-game

-Clerics start better, but require more min-maxing to reach the same levels of power at higher levels

-Druids are completely broken, start to end and, in my opinion, will wind up being more powerful than either of those two with much less effort dedicated to munchkinery

That's for 3.5e. If you get 5e, then in my experience Bard is by far the best class, but that isn't saying much since the classes are very balanced this time around, with the exception of Rangers.

I grew up on 2nd ed, played 3rd ed, and then 4th, before going to Pathfinder. I haven't tried 5th ed yet.

I kind of like having a little bit of a power curve difference. It's sort of why I like Est characters, earning the strong character by building it up. 4th ed was a bit too samey between the classes.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I grew up on 2nd ed, played 3rd ed, and then 4th, before going to Pathfinder. I haven't tried 5th ed yet.

I kind of like having a little bit of a power curve difference. It's sort of why I like Est characters, earning the strong character by building it up. 4th ed was a bit too samey between the classes.

I fully agree with this. Varying power curves makes the gameplay more interesting and adds incentives to play classes over others depending on how you like to play (where are you willing to sacrifice power for instance). Where the balance comes in is making sure that the Est classes overtake the Jeigans at a reasonable point and ensuring that the Est doesn't completely invalidate the Jeigan. 3.5e failed on both accounts, since Clerics and Druids make the Fighter (for example) comparatively useless by first level and even a Wizard will overtake the fighter by level 3-5 and of course, once you start hitting high levels, all classes that aren't Tier 1 or 2 might as well not bother showing up (and this is before you start getting into Prestige Classes and whatnot).

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Res]

Every time we start a D&D session we fail to get our friends all together again for months afterwards. They're on 5th Ed?! Damn.

[Rezzy]

Every time we start a D&D session we fail to get our friends all together again for months afterwards. They're on 5th Ed?! Damn.

I often go back to Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale to get my D&D fix when I can't play for months at a time. Luckily, I'm able to meet weekly now.

[eclipse]

AHEM.

As much as I appreciate a good DnD campaign, and a refreshing thread derail. . .yeah. Go make a topic elsewhere if you wanna chat about it.

[Time the Crestfallen]

AHEM.

As much as I appreciate a good DnD campaign, and a refreshing thread derail. . .yeah. Go make a topic elsewhere if you wanna chat about it.

What if we make some half-hearted statement about how tabletop gaming hasn't proven very welcoming to women?

[eclipse]

What if we make some half-hearted statement about how tabletop gaming hasn't proven very welcoming to women?

We women can make our own groups! Or join in on existing ones, because there's plenty of reasonable DMs out there!

[Time the Crestfallen]

We women can make our own groups! Or join in on existing ones, because there's plenty of reasonable DMs out there!

Well sure, D&D is pretty good from what I hear, but card games or miniature war-gaming much less so as far as I can tell. I actually had personal experience with the latter back when I still played Warhammer 40k. Some guy at the local store was...not very welcoming or friendly in that regard, to put it mildly.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[eclipse]

My local CCG store doesn't really care about gender that much. I know there's some seriously rotten apples in there, but that's following the same logic that Snowy did (I'm not going to classify the entirety of the CCG communities by using their more extreme members).

[Time the Crestfallen]

My local CCG store doesn't really care about gender that much. I know there's some seriously rotten apples in there, but that's following the same logic that Snowy did (I'm not going to classify the entirety of the CCG communities by using their more extreme members).

Is that so? My local CCG store was pretty elitist in general and I've already mentioned that one guy (actually two, but he was the only regular one) at the local Games Workshop. Ah well, different experiences and whatnot.

Regardless, I never meant to imply that all members of these hobbies are rotten apples, merely that the 'climate' if you will isn't as welcoming as other hobbies I could name.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[tuvarkz]

I haven't seen any gender-related discrimination in tabletop gaming (even if some of them did have elitists and hardcore optimizers).

Also, a 3.5e wizard? He's strong from level one-With his 3-4 daily spells at level one, with proper use he'll single-handedly half of the allotted daily encounters, since Colorspray basically just leaves the enemies in place for whatever weapon-wielder is in the party to just attack them till they drop.

I enjoy much more playing my Tome of Battle martials (and PF 3rd party equivalents) though.

[Ebony]

I do wanna pop in and say

I haven't seen any gender-related discrimination in tabletop gaming (even if some of them did have elitists and hardcore optimizers).

Ehhh...? Kind of.

I have noticed groups have been more... cautious of letting girls join, especially if they're a player's girlfriend. I'd say that's fine, they don't want an unfair advantage, but they let someone bring in his boyfriend into the group like fine.

Left that group at least. Others have been surprised that I was a girl into DnD, but I haven't personally experienced much. One I"m in now is filled with people I've been friends with for a while, at least.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I haven't seen any gender-related discrimination in tabletop gaming (even if some of them did have elitists and hardcore optimizers).

As a whole, perhaps not. I'm simply putting forward that in my personal experiences and from what word of mouth I've heard, card games and miniature wargaming are not very welcoming to women. Especially the latter, pretty much everyone I've talked to in that hobby has horror stories. But who knows, perhaps my views are tainted by an unusually crappy experience.

Also, a 3.5e wizard? He's strong from level one-With his 3-4 daily spells at level one, with proper use he'll single-handedly half of the allotted daily encounters, since Colorspray basically just leaves the enemies in place for whatever weapon-wielder is in the party to just attack them till they drop.

I enjoy much more playing my Tome of Battle martials (and PF 3rd party equivalents) though.

Of course Wizards are strong at first level, I was simply approaching the 'linear warrior, quadratic wizard' argument along the lines of when they make the party fighter redundant, for example.

I personally don't think that Wizards invalidate fighters until 3-5th level because once they run out of spells, they can't really do anything. Clerics meanwhile, get heavy armour and decent BAB/weapon proficiencies while Druids get wildshape and animal companions.

[Tryhard]

Rule of thumb:

-Wizards are balls-to-the-wall powerful at high levels, but suffer in terms of early-game

-Clerics start better, but require more min-maxing to reach the same levels of power at higher levels

-Druids are completely broken, start to end and, in my opinion, will wind up being more powerful than either of those two with much less effort dedicated to munchkinery

That's for 3.5e. If you get 5e, then in my experience Bard is by far the best class, but that isn't saying much since the classes are very balanced this time around, with the exception of Rangers.

I did play various D&D based games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights and I still have the core rulebook for Pathfinder that I bought for games that didn't turn out happening. Clerics, Sorcerers/Wizards and Rogues (even though I don't believe they are very good in 3.5 lol) were probably my choice. I made a character for funsies in Pathfinder as a Sorcerer that could do 4d4 + 5 Burning Hands four times, seemed pretty good for AoE at level 1 even if burn spells aren't the most effective long term. But that's still nothing compared to a Barbarian (with 20 strength) or such that can attack at +6 for 2d4 + 10 at level 1 single target and without spells per day. Generally that's an issue with martial classes is that they don't scale well, but fighters/casters like the Cleric still have great spells. Pathfinder did nerf the druid but they're still incredibly strong. Damn hippies.

As a whole, perhaps not. I'm simply putting forward that in my personal experiences and from what word of mouth I've heard, card games and miniature wargaming are not very welcoming to women. Especially the latter, pretty much everyone I've talked to in that hobby has horror stories. But who knows, perhaps my views are tainted by an unusually crappy experience.

I'd imagine it's because people don't want to sit around and explain the games rules constantly, and they subconsciously think that women won't know how the game is played. Once they have played, they are probably a lot more welcoming. Edited September 29, 2016 by Tryhard

[Res]

Warhammer 40k shops are probably the only places on earth where I've personally felt extremely uncomfortable merely due to my gender (I've been lucky in where I've lived).

[UNLEASH IT]

This discussion about tabletop RPG's is nice and all, but can we get back on topic?

Edited September 29, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Soapbar]

I do wanna pop in and say

Ehhh...? Kind of.

I have noticed groups have been more... cautious of letting girls join, especially if they're a player's girlfriend. I'd say that's fine, they don't want an unfair advantage, but they let someone bring in his boyfriend into the group like fine.

Left that group at least. Others have been surprised that I was a girl into DnD, but I haven't personally experienced much. One I"m in now is filled with people I've been friends with for a while, at least.

I think Groups being cautious about letting women join has more to do with neckbeards sexually harassing the girl OOC'ly or IC'ly. I do remember reading quite a few horror stories on /tg/ about those sorts of things.

[Res]

Regardless, I never meant to imply that all members of these hobbies are rotten apples, merely that the 'climate' if you will isn't as welcoming as other hobbies I could name.

Yes; it's more of an atmosphere/climate, as you say. Definitely

This discussion about tabletop RPG's is nice and all, but can we get back on topic?

Well, any suggestions? I don't recall seeing too much from you on the subject!

This popped up in my newsfeed today and I really hope their petition gets heard. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabian-women-file-petition-over-14500-signatures-end-male-guardianship-a7332436.html

Re. rape discussion on the last page; I don't think I'd see a higher concentration of rape/assault victims in women-dominant groups, unless they were specifically for victims. Most of the groups I'm in are parenting groups, and the main link (apart from having children) is that generally the groups I gravitate towards are pro-vaccination/evidence-based parenting.

[Time the Crestfallen]

This popped up in my newsfeed today and I really hope their petition gets heard. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabian-women-file-petition-over-14500-signatures-end-male-guardianship-a7332436.html

Huh. That's pretty good that it has so many signatures. Sadly, I don't really see it going through, considering what I know of Saudi Arabia.

Re. rape discussion on the last page; I don't think I'd see a higher concentration of rape/assault victims in women-dominant groups, unless they were specifically for victims. Most of the groups I'm in are parenting groups, and the main link (apart from having children) is that generally the groups I gravitate towards are pro-vaccination/evidence-based parenting.

Hmm. Well, I'm out of ideas then.

[eclipse]

No, I didn't read through all of the comments. However, there's some pretty good points in there, perhaps the most ironic one being that when an issue is brought up, someone inevitably brings up "but what about men?!"

[Time the Crestfallen]

No, I didn't read through all of the comments. However, there's some pretty good points in there, perhaps the most ironic one being that when an issue is brought up, someone inevitably brings up "but what about men?!"

No, seriously. You have no idea how much I hate when people do that.

On a side-note, I was pleasantly surprised by that. Perhaps reddit social justice isn't a lost cause after all.

[Res]

No, I didn't read through all of the comments. However, there's some pretty good points in there, perhaps the most ironic one being that when an issue is brought up, someone inevitably brings up "but what about men?!"

I read all the main (not sub) comments that loaded and it was an excellent read and rang very true.

Edit: It was also what I had originally expected this thread to mainly discuss, but I shouldn't really have been surprised that most of what this thread has done is concentrate on rape statistics and the myth of the wage gap...

Edited September 30, 2016 by Res

[Tryhard]

This discussion about tabletop RPG's is nice and all, but can we get back on topic?

Perhaps contribute more than one-liners yourself?

No, I didn't read through all of the comments. However, there's some pretty good points in there, perhaps the most ironic one being that when an issue is brought up, someone inevitably brings up "but what about men?!"

Some of these are good points but others I really have to question. Like the one(s) talking about safe spaces (is this ultimately a 'gendered issue' anyway?) and microaggresions. I don't care if they're from Tumblr or whatever but I really don't understand people who think they are a good or legitimate idea.

Edit: It was also what I had originally expected this thread to mainly discuss, but I shouldn't really have been surprised that most of what this thread has done is concentrate on rape statistics and the myth of the wage gap...

Which specifically? Because those latter two arguments are certainly ones quite often on the forefront even if they may not exactly be accurate. Edited September 30, 2016 by Tryhard

[Res]

Some of these are good points but others I really have to question. Like the one(s) talking about safe spaces (is this ultimately a 'gendered issue' anyway?) and microaggresions. I don't care if they're from Tumblr or whatever but I really don't understand people who think they are a good or legitimate idea.

Which specifically? Because those latter two arguments are certainly ones quite often on the forefront even if they may not exactly be accurate.

None of the main comments I read really discussed safe spaces much? Is there a specific comment on there you can point to?

I suppose that in most feminist discussions I've had in women-dominated groups, the wage gap is almost never discussed, and rape is sometimes discussed (depending on the demographic, sometimes it's too sensitive a topic to delve into much). However, in a mixed/men-dominated group, the wage gap is always highlighted as being a major issue. I get the impression that most women aren't really concerned with a wage gap, and that it's an issue that largely gets brought up by people as a way to dismiss feminism.

[tuvarkz]

None of the main comments I read really discussed safe spaces much? Is there a specific comment on there you can point to?

I suppose that in most feminist discussions I've had in women-dominated groups, the wage gap is almost never discussed, and rape is sometimes discussed (depending on the demographic, sometimes it's too sensitive a topic to delve into much). However, in a mixed/men-dominated group, the wage gap is always highlighted as being a major issue. I get the impression that most women aren't really concerned with a wage gap, and that it's an issue that largely gets brought up by people as a way to dismiss feminism.

Honestly, main reason why I generally bring up the '1 in 4' and the 'wage gap' because 1)They have been given credibility and truth value by mainstream media (and the US government as well given that Obama has brought it up, don't remember if Clinton did but Sanders has brought the wage up iirc), 2) they are the ones that least intersect into other topics ('Safe spaces' is quite much an intersectional thing now, and talking Internet harassment and related is inevitably going to tie the whole thing with the Gamergate movement which is likely to derail the conversation) which is why I bring them up when talking specifically about feminism rather than bringing up the issues I have with 'progressives' as a whole.