Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Green Poet]

You're allowed to talk about the game outside of the game here?

Er I misread this. I'm not talking about ongoing games, just ones that have already finished. Pretty sure discussing an ongoing game would be in violation of the rules.

[Green Poet]

mm, it's not close to deadline yet but the conditions are good enough that I'll push for it.

##Vote: Elemina

[charlie_]

Just ate, haven't read fully but I saw deadline is close. What's going on?

[Hober Mallow]

Yeah you had it correct the first time.

But let me make sure I'm understanding here. You asked Makaze and Ashemu for games that Ele has played offsite? When was this? And have you read/skimmed any of them as of yet?

[yedi]

wtf, elemina is such a bad push.

they're literally my number one town read. i can't wait to read the reasoning behind thinking that one of the most active and open players this game is scum

rereading up now.

[Green Poet]

But let me make sure I'm understanding here. You asked Makaze and Ashemu for games that Ele has played offsite? When was this? And have you read/skimmed any of them as of yet?

Specifically I asked "could you link me some of the games that the players new to SF have played on other forums?" This was less than an hour ago, after the thought struck me that it'd be good to reference Elemina's current play with some of his previous games'. And no, I haven't received any such links yet.

[Elemina]

Ashemu?? Lmao did not expect that. Makaze makes sense.

[Green Poet]

Not sure who Ashemu is. Assuming that's another of Prims' aliases or something?

[Hober Mallow]

Here's one of Ele's recent game: http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/3986-Hellville/page2

They go by Elephantality on there.

[charlie_]

That's the point of a case, you outline their whole play and show what feels off. It's town because I was confident in my vibe on Refa being scummy. Your read on me is not founded well because you have yet to deconstruct my case which you say is a kitchen sink. Why go off a simple vibe instead of looking at why I believe those things and then decide my intent from it? You continue to use work and late nights to excuse yourself from giving content. You are in thread right now, but you aren't giving reads on other slots. Since you are not in thread, I want you to contribute. (Also this is how I always make cases, so it's null)

Now tell me. How would you make a case as opposed to me?

Throwing shade at every post a person makes is not productive, unless your goal is to make sure that nobody actually wants to read your post. I remember thinking that your Refa case was scummy because it's all over the place with no central point to it. This makes it look more like a string of random shit you're pointing out, rather than a more concise case that's both easier to read and makes figuring out your intentions much easier.

[Ken Masters]

Can we not bring games played outside SF here?

And if it's done, I will not consider them valid evidence of anything.

For example, back in Zelda Dungeon I was a totally different plauer than what I am here in SF. Different Mafia cultures makes players adapt and change.

It's foolish to expect someone to be consistent across different boards, with different mafia cultures.

Neither Elemina nor Ryker should be held under those standards.

[charlie_]

This game is a mess.

[Hober Mallow]

Can we not bring games played outside SF here?

And if it's done, I will not consider them valid evidence of anything.

For example, back in Zelda Dungeon I was a totally different plauer than what I am here in SF. Different Mafia cultures makes players adapt and change.

It's foolish to expect someone to be consistent across different boards, with different mafia cultures.

Neither Elemina nor Ryker should be held under those standards.

You're very welcome to ignore it.

[charlie_]

Green Poet (4): SB, Hober Mallow, kirsche, Elemina

Elemina (3): Rainbow, Refa, Green Poet

Rainbow (2): Ryker, YOLOSWAG

Ryker (1): Spinal

kirsche (1): Yedi

Blitz (1): Elemina

​Hober Mallow (1): Blitz

​

No Lynch (1): Irony

6.5 hours or so left?

I am so fucking glad we don't need hammer.

[Blitz]

So let me get this straight Blitz. SB can be town simply for reading but Hober is scum for being passive. I don't think you are thinking thoroughly about your reads here. Your SB town read is weak, and you haven't shown any progression to show that you came to the conclusion Irony is town after scum-reading him early game. That's my problem with you regardless of alignment. If refa has GUT well, it can't be shown to others, it's only a feeling that he can feel, but we can't. He has to put those feelings into words otherwise it's just a heap of nothing.

What is your read on Ryker now?

Wrong, SB can be town for knowing what is going on and getting behind cases he agrees with and his points about Green Poet are quite good.

Hober on the other hand, may have read the thread, but has provided no content (especially at the point, where you defended him), yet you claimed he was town.

So far, every time, I have been asking you show me what content Hober provided, for you to be calling him a townie, where he not only was doing nothing to progress the game, he was also passively fence sitting, which is what you accused Spinal of doing and you not have only been avoiding the subject

I don't have to mention in thread, "Oh look, X posted this must be town now!" That only helps scum, while not mentioning it gives me the advantage quite a few advantages (if you want to know, feel free to ask regarding the advantages, but that is game theory and completely unrelated to this game)

My read on Ryker is that he stopped being the proactive self he used to be and that does not look good with me and I am pretty sure I saw a post of his saying he will be around early today

Let me explain it to you. Saying that Hober is scum for RVS voting on page 2 is also saying that everyone that RVS voted is scum for RVS voting. That is why your reasoning falls apart. Spinal didn't use his RVS vote at all, which shows he didn't care to progress the phase at that point. You are just trying to fit whatever you can into your read on me. Like you are literally twisting my words to fit your belief, yet this is why I think you are townier than not at the moment.

I find Refa worse than Hober just as you find Hober worse than SB who has nothing to show for his alignment. I will give you the point that Hober didn't have his vote in play, but let me ask you: Who else didn't have their votes in play? Should they be scum too?

you are taking things out of context, I did not say Hober is scum for not voting, I said Hober is scum for not providing Content, while acting like he has done so. Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Hober not voting was not the primary reason for me casing him and SB has nothing to do with how I see Hober, they aren't even closely related. SB has been pushing people, Hober has not.

My case on you is that you claimed Hober provided content, which he did not. You also claimed Hober is being passive, which is the same as not helping progressing the game as far as I am concerned (prove me wrong). You have had Hober as a town read for a while now and you have yet to answer me why he is a townread, that you are so sold on.

and regarding SB, if he is scum, we all know who he will Nightkill N1, lol

I have decided, until you get in depth with your Hober read, I am done answering your questions about my reads to you, because you are clearly trying to move my attention elsewhere by avoiding the topic.

Proto/Yolo/7 pages of stuff I haven't read yet, comes after this

[yedi]

wait Ryker, you didn't know who Elemina was early on?

Specifically, Elemina, can you save me having to type on my phone and explain to Irony why players need to interact and push on Day 1?

why did you direct this question to him back then?

[charlie_]

Elemina and GP both crossvoting bugs the fuck out of me. GP at least has a buildup and 'not me over me' to work with but Elemina, he literally thought that GP was town beforehand and hard shifted based off of one post.

@People who think Elemina is town: talk me through it. 'Activity' is not an answer.

[Hober Mallow]

Elemina and GP both crossvoting bugs the fuck out of me. GP at least has a buildup and 'not me over me' to work with but Elemina, he literally thought that GP was town beforehand and hard shifted based off of one post.

@People who think Elemina is town: talk me through it. 'Activity' is not an answer.

"She lacks the aversion to risk as scum would have. She's been contently trying to push the game forward and comes off as very obviously trying to figure things out. All of her bazillion posts have had scumhunting intent behind them."

[yedi]

Elemina and GP both crossvoting bugs the fuck out of me. GP at least has a buildup and 'not me over me' to work with but Elemina, he literally thought that GP was town beforehand and hard shifted based off of one post.

@People who think Elemina is town: talk me through it. 'Activity' is not an answer.

while activity is not an answer, him being active is a plus just cuz it's protown. Inactives should generally be higher priorities for lynches because if we leave them alive, reading them later on becomes much more difficult. I also just played a game where we lynched active players d1 and d2 and had to deal with reading a bunch of inactive players which was almost impossible cuz we didn't have much to work with. also more generally than not scum lies with the inactives (and yes I realize the irony in this statement)

anyway i have a post coming that should explain why I think Ran is not the play

[Hober Mallow]

I feel really good about a GP lynch. I can understand a person having a different subjective opinion about Elemina. Green Poet's reasoning is what bothers me. She is solely basing her read of Ele on the fact that Ele did not claim right away. As shown in my previous posts, there is no reason this should be taken as scum tell.

[Green Poet]

She is solely basing her read of Ele on the fact that Ele did not claim right away. As shown in my previous posts, there is no reason this should be taken as scum tell.

I'm... not though.

tbh I really want to see his flip because this back-and-forth is not doing much in terms of telling me about his alignment. I still maintain that his slot is the best lynch (in a vacuum, disregarding cases) because it gives town the most positive gain regardless of the actual flip; if it's a mislynch we get confirmed numbers, and if it's a scum lynch then yay. We simply don't get this deal from anyone else's lynch right now.

But if I had to decide whether to lynch Elemina or not right now, I would say yes, if that answers your question.

[Blitz]

@SB, I read through Proto's post. They sound like typical town Proto. He normally sticks to a few reads and concentrates on them and a lot of the stuff he said, I agree with. His thought progression is pretty natural and sounds from a town PoV. Only problem is, I can see him doing it as scum too, so, I would keep an eye out, but wouldn't be too worried about it.

Actually, there is one other thing, but I feel like I should not mention that just yet.

@Yoloswag, what is your reasoning for not wanting Spinal lynched at the same level as Proto?

from what I can tell, both Proto and Spinal are tunneling Ryker and they both agreed to lynch someone else if needed, no?

and you still haven't answered why you initially voted me

Gonna read the 7 pages next (someone halp...)

[Ken Masters]

You're very welcome to ignore it.

No. I will actively fight the idea of using games played outside SF as valid evidence, and all of those who support it. Even if that means that I will have to defend Ryker for a few posts.

@SB: Elemina is a lot of things, but not scum. Jumping to conclusions is the main complaint raise against her. But it's such a consistent attitude towards every player, it most likely is just a personality trait Had it been selective (jtc with some cases and not all of'em) I would call him on out on it and call it scummy. Do I agree with the point raised upon him? Yeah, it is harmful that he only works under assumptions anduses witty remarks and strange one liners, but none of those actions are inherently scummy, and Occam's Razor tells me that's just his personality.

I don't agree with Elemina at all. But I also don't thin he is scum.

[charlie_]

@Blitz: are you actually leaning towards town on Proto or not, even if you think this isn't outlandish for scum Proto? I get what you're saying but working out what your stance is on him properly is rough.

I can see Spinal's point about it being personality and I think GP is trying too hard to pull the 'optimal lynch' card in the quoted case. I'm honestly wrecked so unless anyone has questions for me I'm probably just going to go and collapse in a few minutes.

[Green Poet]

When I finish reading Hellville and/or another game I'll have a better idea on Ele's alignment. Not sure why Mallow thinks I want to lynch him "because I think he's scum," I'm saying he's objectively the best lynch in terms of what role we stand to lose in the case of mislynch + the information we can confirm.

I also said that the last few pages of talking with Ele haven't given me any insight towards his alignment because I can see someone pushing as frequently and as reactively as either alignment. "My read on Ele" isn't necessarily a scumread, but I know that I am not scum, I know that we seem to be two of the more popular lynches atm, and I think my slot is more valuable than claimed informed.

@Boron, how do you feel about us using offsite meta? I think we should defer to your ruling since Spinal's opposed to the idea.