Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Irony]

Yolo:

Originally I had Ryker as null scum for voting Spinal with me and not pressuring him further. That was what got him flack, and I agree with those points. I don't agree with the other points as I know how Ryker can play. His early Blitz vote just seems like he noticed something scummy of Blitz but he voted him for his own image rather than trying to determine his own alignment. He also had plenty of nulls and only a few town reads and two scumreads. Then the wagon shifted from Ryker to me. His deadline push was mostly to see me live over GP (which I find null). I want him here so I can talk to him about Rainbow but I can't do that so I'm left with this initial feeling.

Irony:

Just ask for people's recent games, and read them. Look at their mafia and town games to see how they may be different, and use that to your best judgement. I will tell you one thing. You seem to be reading people off of their play, but you are only reading me via my role, and not play. Is this not a partial read? What do you think of my play, without the role? How about both? I want you to think hard on this. If you want my games or other people's games, ask anyone else, I'd rather not focus on that since I will save posts for other things. (Others can provide links and stuff for me)

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

Ok, I will try and look for people's recent games, though I might not be able to read them all as again assignments. :/ And you know what? I didn't even realise that I was doing that. I guess the fact that you're one of the few users who has claimed their role kinda clouded my judgement. I think another reason why I doubted you was due to the fact that you were buddy-buddy with Ryker, but that seems to have changed. Give me time, as I'll need to reread all of your comments and everyone else's reads, and I will think on it. Until then...

##Unvote

##Vote: Ryker

[charlie_]

Completely lost track of time today, mb.

Regarding the post where I unvoted Ryker, most of it wasn't about me dropping the Ryker case though. I spoilered a wall of text in spoilers that was for Ryker because I didn't want him to think that his behavior was acceptable and productive, especially since my unvoting after his wall of text might be misinterpreted as approval. The rest of the post was mostly about me replying to the contents of Ryker's walls of text, and were unrelated to my case on him. It just so happened that the person I was casing made a big post that had some points I wanted to reply to, as well as a case against me. In fact, I am pretty sure most of my post would be perfectly coherent if you were to assume that I wasn't casing him at the time. Only one paragraph was explicitly about my case on him, where I expressed that his playstyle seemed like unproductive Townie, but could still possibly have had scum motivations. I personally can't see how that one paragraph is a "big deal".

That just fits in with my point though. Most of it felt like posturing, and then you spent so much time doing that that you didn't even end up saying a thing about anyone else and just left your unvote. Why did you not switch to GP, out of curiosity, considering that she was also one of your scumreads? I don't remember ever saying that your posts were incoherent (if i did, I'm completely blanking it) and that's not my issue with how you handled it.

Why did you want to wait for Elemina to change their ways before unvoting if you're starting to recognise that it your case could just be wrong because that's Elemina's playstyle. Why does she have to correct it when despite all of the lecturing you gave him, you didn't wait for Ryker?

@Elemina: Wrt Proto first, what makes his opinions come across as genuine to you? For me, it goes beyond emotional to the point that it feels made up so I'd like to see why you think that.

I disagree on earlygame being the most important/RVS stuff because of how SFMafia played 'before' RVS but philosophy can wait. I see your point about Ken's fall-off although I'm hesitant to credit it for too much, and also Ken isn't a mafia vet or anything unless I'm completely forgetting something? I'm assuming the last part of your post directed to me was about Refa, and I get where you're coming from there.

@Elieson: Why do you think Blitz's role is scummy? I might get what you're thinking here but I don't want to give you an answer if you're bullshitting so I'd like to hear this first. I also disagree from a meta standpoint because I think Blitz has a lot of useless/semi-useless posts as town, but it feels like he's had more direction in this game.

Up to #795, splitting for readability and also to request votals.

[Sunwoo]

You have about seven hours remaining for D2.

I'm going to be gone for the next few hours, so even if there is a hammer the phase won't end until I get back. In the meantime, if a hammer has occurred while I am away, stop posting.

As per my rules, I will allow one 24 hour extension throughout the entire game for any non-D1 phase, just so everyone is aware. Extension will be granted if over half the living players wish for an extension.

[Sunwoo]

No one complained about eclipse's votals, so I am using the ones from there.

Votals

Rainbow/Proto (3) - Ryker, YOLO, SB
YOLO/Omega (2) - Blitz, kirsche
Ryker (1) - Irony
Hober Mallow (1) - Rainbow

No vote (5) Ken Masters, Yedi, Hober Mallow, Elieson, Elemina

I believe these are right. I'll only be here for about the next ten minutes.

[charlie_]

So yeah I'm reading that Protopost and it feels like there's a pattern of him gunning for the most disagreeable player and trying to get them lynched rather than looking too deep into anything. A lot of his analysis feels really echoed too (the kitchen sink analogy, agreeing with Elemina's reads) and his point on Refa is a hard waffle without trying to get anyone involved in the read.

@Elieson: Expand on what you mean about Healer Kaoz pls. That's completely different to what I thought you were doing.

@kirsche: Walk me through your Refa/Mallow logic? Is this just for the sake of the gamestate, or is this actually a reads thing? If it's the latter, I'm missing something.

@Irony: Meta reads can be useful but I wouldn't reccommend actually trying to apply them unless you've played with someone before or at least read a couple of their games and know how they act as different alignments (since a lot of their posts will be playstyle based anyway. The only exceptions are for players like Paperblade who just kind of shut down when they roll mafia, but none of those are in this game.

Is BBM subbing in for Hober Mallow or not?

[Irony]

So yeah I'm reading that Protopost and it feels like there's a pattern of him gunning for the most disagreeable player and trying to get them lynched rather than looking too deep into anything. A lot of his analysis feels really echoed too (the kitchen sink analogy, agreeing with Elemina's reads) and his point on Refa is a hard waffle without trying to get anyone involved in the read.

@Elieson: Expand on what you mean about Healer Kaoz pls. That's completely different to what I thought you were doing.

@kirsche: Walk me through your Refa/Mallow logic? Is this just for the sake of the gamestate, or is this actually a reads thing? If it's the latter, I'm missing something.

@Irony: Meta reads can be useful but I wouldn't reccommend actually trying to apply them unless you've played with someone before or at least read a couple of their games and know how they act as different alignments (since a lot of their posts will be playstyle based anyway. The only exceptions are for players like Paperblade who just kind of shut down when they roll mafia, but none of those are in this game.

Is BBM subbing in for Hober Mallow or not?

As I said, I wanted to read a couple of games in order to learn how people act and such. I'm not applying Meta at the moment, but literally having the Meta will make things so much easier.

[charlie_]

I'm struggling to think of a game that fits for a lot of players because they're all pretty outdated by this point. If you just mean a game in general, here's a kind of short one that I don't remember being horrible and a much longer one where I spent most of the game suffering.

[Elemina]

SB:

Rainbow's pushes are consistent. His first post mentions my list as something seeming like a confident read in a place it shouldn't be. RVS you have little to go on, so acting confident would seem weird. Some of his suspicions are on surface things like you said and this is why I find his beliefs genuine. He is going by the book. What scum would genuinely push sheeping and typo's as reasons for voting someone? I expect scum to be more cautious or try to be right with their reasoning somewhat. Why would he bring up the GP wagon as scum? I don't think emotion will be enough to sell me on him. You'll need to show concrete examples to me. For example, if he were using emotion to get out of pressure/lynch, then I'd consider it, but I don't see that. Why are you asking me about one minor facet of his play when I gave other reasons?

Why is Blitz town to you?

[Elemina]

Fuck.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Irony]

Fuck.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

???????

[charlie_]

My post exploded. I'm assuming he's talking about breaking his post restriction.

@Elemina: I don't think consistency is a point for Proto because of how shallow his opinions are. I feel like his surface level observations are a result of him struggling to find things that he can honestly push comfortably (with a lot of potential pushes he's talking himself down on). GP wagon analysis also fits to this. I don't think his posts are emotionally townie either (or particularly emotional in general) and I read his rant about lynching GP as "you guys are idiots why did you do that" rather than empathizing with her.

Also from what I remember your post defending him was also based on his emotions?

[charlie_]

Don't think we're close to a lynch and I feel exhausted so ##Extend pls.

[Blitz]

[spoiler=My game plan]

Ummm, Elie, there are a few things I have to mention:

1) I am too busy irl to be overly active and I mentioned in the sfchat (before game started that I won't be pushing for cases)

On the note of pushing cases, it is very hard to push for people like Yolo (who I cased multiple times and he never answered), Marrow (Who ignores my existence and only responds to others) and Yedi (whose reply I don't remember seeing, but I will get to it)

2) I know my role sounds like a classic Elie fakeclaim, but I already proved my role. Also, just cause my role is bad doesn't mean I can't be scum, it just means that the role is not a non existent

Blitz is unable to post in the thread for the first 24 hours of D1.

and all the posts before that mine (during N1), with no interference from mods...

3) On Code Geas (I might be wrong on the game) you were badly scumreading me (where you turned into the "King of Wall posts" for a short time and I remember Eury was in the game and I had to read TWO wall posters) for being too passive, but I was town in it. I think you were scumreading me for trying to defend Proto in that game too on D1 (and in that one, he was lynched)...

4) The reason I quit/failed pushing for people is for a few reasons.

Firstly because I always die N1 and I don't remember how I used to get the best of it

Secondly because Wizard died, the last 3 of my town games are proof of that

Third so that my scum game, when I roll scum doesn't become too obvious

[spoiler spoiler=Regarding Proto and activity]

Proto is one of the least active people on sf mafia and the activity he has is what his normal activity is. By Proto being inactive, I meant him having about 20 to 40% activity as he does now.

Regarding other stuff

don't really get where you're coming from with most of your points on me (like why you think I'm faking content or that I'm not following up with points I make). While your omgus doesn't really read as scummy to me (mostly because of how blatant the OMGUS is), I'm still confused by some of your actions, like the reasoning behind your fervent defense of Rainbow and why you actually think I'm scum.

also, I see your point about what you meant by pushing for inactivity. You were trying to get a quick lynch on Proto near phase end though

1) when did I ever say you faked content? show me proof please

2) My case on you is not about faked content, it is on you lying about what I had or had not done, which you clearly lied about. I have every right to go after you for it. (For strenthening my point, if I had said, you were townreading GP and yet you lynched her when you had no reason to and that makes you scummy, wouldn't you come after me?)

I was gonna make a longer post, at least I intended on it, but I have to do some other stuff now. I should be around, with in a while and I will look at some of the clashes (mainly SB and Proto) after I get back. Ask me questions if you want to know anything, will try to answer it and I should be around for phase end.

[Irony]

So, for everyone who has/hasn't voted:

1) Do we want an extension?

2) If so, what should we be focusing on tomorrow?

3) If not, who is everyone willing to lynch?

4) Is there anyone who you don't want to lynch?

Me:

1) I'm not 100% sure. If we need it, then yes. If not, then no.

2) I guess we should focus on people who are being inactive & also trying to consolidate all of our views together?

3) I said it before- Ryker, Hober, YOLOSWAG, maybe Emelina and Yedi (based on Blitz's comment). I'm also torn about SB, as I read a prior game where she was Mafia, and the behaviours seemed similar (but I'm not sure on this one.)

4) Blitz, Spinal, Elieson, Rainbow. Maybe Kirche?

[Irony]

And the maybe is in bold as, whilst Emelina isn't my main lynch target, I am still thinking about things r.e. The question he gave me.

[Zkirsche]

\\Extension We are miles from agreeing on a lynch. If people aren't going to extend then we need to consolidate. My top three lynches are Yolo Yedi Refesion.

SB: Out of two people, one town and one scum, mods usually sub in the maflord. Considering Elie wasn't put in Mallow's slot when Mallow asked for it and instead put in Refa's slot despite being the second person to ask over 48 hours later is enough to raise eyebrows imo.

[Elemina]

SB I'll get to you later. Going to nap now, but first:

Deadline extension.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Blitz]

for full context this was in response to mallow not wanting to vote ryker/rainbow before their seemingly impending wall battle. it seemed obvious to me that mallow just didnt want to be assed with pruning through a long exchange between the two (i sure didnt) so throw his hands up and declared bigger fish to fry. so the lack of understanding on rainbows part on something that seems obvious reads as disingenuous and opening the door to the idea of mallow being rykers scumbuddy for it just looks like a reach

Instead of being annoyed at you, I decided to read you. I can't understand why you feel that Hober had bigger fish to fry (I mean because his content didn't seem like he was doing any of that). Besides that, What do you think, now that he decided to not fry any fish?

Regarding Mallow, I totally am feeling like lynching him, if we can't get an extension

@Boron, Speaking of Extension, I am in favor of one

Also, Yolo, is there any previous game where you felt that Proto had much better scumreads, than he does this game. Because Proto more or less always brings up things that are obvious to most others. Also, Proto's best ability is using roles and role analysis, not player analysis, so, IMO, his level of content is just fine.

Also, I am cool with you for the time being and I am sorry for being a massive d*ck about it. You should still answer why you think I am scummy, but it is less important now,

##Unvote

##Vote: Yedi

I am voting Yedi because he still hasn't responded and made a good case on a person other than Proto (I still don't agree with Proto cases from what I remember and I haven't read the Proto VS SB yet, might postpone it for a bit)

I am still up for lynching Hober if we don't get a deadline

and umm, Kirsche, I did an ISO on Refa, it is pretty obvious as to why he subbed out (even if he called it RL issues, I am pretty sure that was only half the reason at most)

There is also one flaw in your account on Hober, did you ever stop to think that it is possible Hober sub out was postponed, because Boron felt that Refa needed it more?

and regarding theories of scumteam, did you stop to think that Hober may have agreed in scumchat to still stay in the game after his buddies made him feel better about the game/forum rules?

[Kriemhild]

Elieson - declaring that Blitz is playing to his scum meta. I dunno whether Blitz is playing to his scum meta. Blitz can read me like a book, but it's a one-sided thing. I don't think I've seen scum Blitz very often either, if at all. I do know that Town Blitzy is a billion times more active than this, but I suspect that his inactivity is due to irl issues because scum Blitzy would likely try to replicate his well-known high activity otherwise. Still though, I do trust that Elieson would know Blitz's playstyle extremely well, so even though I'm not seeing any scum meta from Blitz, Elieson's assessment makes me more wary of him.

Kirsche - mod meta theories about Hober Mallow's alignment. imo mod meta is a terrible, especially when Born is the mod. Yeah, I know this technically doesn't fall under Rule 11, but I very strongly doubt Boron's decision to sub Elieson into Refa's slot is connected to anyone's alignment, and I think it would be foolish to act under the assumption that it was. My personal guess is that she privately inquired further about their reasons for wanting to sub out and was more satisfied with Refa's (who probably had irl issues) than Hober Mallow's (who... didn't like SF's Mafia voting/quoting/spoiler-condensing/CoC standards...?).

Kirsche - lack of resistance to save Mallow. I don't think that's very indicative either, because imo Mallow's behavior would be really difficult to defend without drawing negative attention to yourself. His playstyle is really bussable, if you ask me.

Irony - unvoting Elemina. It... bothers me for some reason. I dunno, it feels like she unvoted because it was an "appropriate" thing to do after Elemina pointed out her vote, as opposed to her actually reconsidering her Elemina read. Admittedly, even the former is something that newbtown could do, but it strikes me more as newbscum trying to look "normal". I don't feel too badly about it though.

btw Irony, the DanganRonpa anime is terrible, please play the game instead if you can.

SB's issue with my Ryker Unvote Post - First of all, I should probably re-state that the Ryker unvote post was made between meetings on a busy day. I think I did intend to post more, but my response to Ryker was my top priority (yes, Ryker bothered me THAT much in early D1) and I wanted to post whatever I did write before I left for my meeting. I also don't reply to every single post (well, nobody does that), and I don't recall if there were any other significant posts that I wanted to reply to (probably not, because I don't think I dug them up later).

As for why I didn't vote for Green Poet, I never make a post that leaves an active vote if I have not fully caught up with the thread (unless I'm cut by somebody). This is the same reason why I didn't vote in my first D2 post. I'm sorry that this bothers you so much.

As for posts being coherent, I mentioned that because your point was that I was making a big deal about unvoting Ryker. The fact that everything in that post aside from a single paragraph remains coherent when you disregard the fact that I was casing Ryker indicates that all of those stuff were unrelated to my Ryker unvote, and so I don't see why claim that I was making a big deal out of unvoting him.

As for why I waited for Elemina before unvoting... *sigh* they were two different scenarios with different contexts and different behavior patterns, even if there are some similar aspects. I don't consciously calculate all the things I say or do, so while I could try to analyze my own behavior to try deciphering the details of this discrepancy, I don't think it would be a productive use of my time or yours. Unless you genuinely feel like this issue is important, but I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

---

As for the current lynch, I would want to lynch Hober Mallow or Ryker. Not sure about YOLO because he seems to be trying to be more active in D2 a little bit, but I would be willing to change my vote to him for consolidation. Yedi hasn't said much, which is not good, and Elemina's case on him seems sensible enough that I would be willing to lynch Yedi for consolidation too.

I'm wary of Blitzy because Elieson's case on him makes sense, but I don't think I want to lynch him now. I also really don't want Refa's slot to be lynched now since I like Elieson's points a lot (they stand out much more than Refa's, and in a good way too). I also don't want Elemina to get lynched now that her posts seem much better with more effective scumhunting than before imo, and I hope she didn't just self-destruct from that posting constraint...

##Extension Request

I didn't even realize that deadline was so close. D2 seems so dead compared to D1...

[Kriemhild]

the Born typo was absolutely not intentional I swear

[Blitz]

Proto, I would like it if you read my reasons for disliking Yedi and tell me your thoughts on it.

[Blitz]

the Born typo was absolutely not intentional I swear

already made a joke to Boron about it, it was too funny!

[Kriemhild]

It's also two hours past my bedtime and I have stuff to do in the morning so gaaaaahhh

[Blitz]

It's also two hours past my bedtime and I have stuff to do in the morning so gaaaaahhh

Will be expecting it tomorrow then. We need one more extension request to obtain it, if my math is right. If not, then 2. Elieson, step up to it! You need the time to read the thread!

Ryker/Yolo/Ken should help out as well!

[Kriemhild]

Your dislike for Yedi seems to be more based on lack of activity as opposed to scummy activity. Which could be scummy though, yeah, because deliberate lurking is beneficial to scum if they can get away with it and Elemina's perception of Yedi's meta also suggests it being scummy. I don't have any particular beef with Yedi, and both you and Elemina have good enough cases for me to sheep. If we don't get an extension, it doesn't seem like either Hober Mallow or Ryker will get lynhed, so...

##Unvote: Hober Mallow

##Vote: Yedi