Ensemble Mafia - N5

[yedi]

i have a bit of time to catch up

Blitz regarding some of your points about me after D1: I'm aware that I've been inactive, I was specifically asking you about Rainbow's inactivity being scummy because you yourself said that we should worry if he's inactive. I personally don't think his inactivity is that scummy and I still dislike him for the main reason of how it feels like he's parroting other people's points and not making new contributions / giving new insights of his own. Not only that he parroted those ppl, but he kept hopping on the most popular wagons in town whenever he showed up, Ryker and Elemina for example.

How come you went from saying that if Rainbow is inactive he's scum, to basically defending his inactivity in your post?

Why are you saying I tried to quicklynch Rainbow...?

Also I don't really get where you're coming from with most of your points on me (like why you think I'm faking content or that I'm not following up with points I make). While your omgus doesn't really read as scummy to me (mostly because of how blatant the OMGUS is), I'm still confused by some of your actions, like the reasoning behind your fervent defense of Rainbow and why you actually think I'm scum.

[yedi]

@Yedi: do you think Proto's reads are 'bad' (considering you dislike them) in general or do you just disagree with them but get where they're coming from? I kinda get where you're coming from here, but if it's the former why not bring up the people you think he sheeped the reads from?

Me not liking his reads is just icing on the cake and not the main reason I think he's scum.

Also who is omega?

[yedi]

I like Omega, Kirsche, and Ken, but I'm going to reread them after that flip.

Who is Omega? I dunno him by that name if I know him.

???

[yedi]

nvm about previous post. and my omega Q

anyway i gotta dip for now, sucks cuz i feel like useless atm

[Kriemhild]

He always had GP as his second string scumread and made a big deal about dropping his Ryker case - to the point that it felt super deliberate to me.

Regarding the post where I unvoted Ryker, most of it wasn't about me dropping the Ryker case though. I spoilered a wall of text in spoilers that was for Ryker because I didn't want him to think that his behavior was acceptable and productive, especially since my unvoting after his wall of text might be misinterpreted as approval. The rest of the post was mostly about me replying to the contents of Ryker's walls of text, and were unrelated to my case on him. It just so happened that the person I was casing made a big post that had some points I wanted to reply to, as well as a case against me. In fact, I am pretty sure most of my post would be perfectly coherent if you were to assume that I wasn't casing him at the time. Only one paragraph was explicitly about my case on him, where I expressed that his playstyle seemed like unproductive Townie, but could still possibly have had scum motivations. I personally can't see how that one paragraph is a "big deal".

@Rainbow

GP was scummy as balls. You had GP as your runner-up if I recall correctly. That role is FAR from a claim that should've saved the slot and I don't get where you are coming from implying that it is. That could easily have belonged to either alignment and GP's play deserved a lynch, so I don't know why you think it was a travesty for that lynch to have happened.

Yes, I had her as my second strongest scumread during my last D1 post. I still want to know the reasoning behind other players' opinions, even if they agree with me. Why can't you just tell me directly why you thought she was scummy?

Also, when you say it was her play that got her lynched, it sounds like you wanted her lynched because she was playing badly, and not because you actually thought she was reasonably likely to be scum. Note that sub-optimal play =/= scum intent.

The fact that the lynch happened isn't my issue, but the way it happened bothers me a whole lot. And regardless of whether it was a "good wagon" or a "bad wagon", I do believe it's always a good idea to analyze the wagon. The data obtained from lynches isn't limited to the target's flip; but the decisions and circumstances that led to the lynch provides far more data.

As for it being "right," I don't mean that the flip was tampered with. I mean it was the right decision for progressing the game. He flipped town, but there was a large contingent of the game that was not going to stop aiming at GP until GP was dead (like me). This lets us move forward.

So you're saying it was the right decision simply because a lot of people wanted her dead? I certainly agree that lynching a Townie can often be the "right" decision, due to the circumstances around it and the information gained from their flip. But I can't imagine a Townie feeling happy about mislynching another Townie simply because a lot of people wanted her dead and now we can move on.

Now, can you tell me this:

1.) What's your read on Ken and why?

Seems pretty neutral. He expresses his opinions and contributes to meaningful discussion and I can understand his reasoning even if I don't always agree with the conclusion (like Elemina being Town). I think his read on Green Poet was really weak, but his vote seemed fine because I perceived it as being more of Elemina vs Green Poet (and I respect his reasons for believing Elemina to be Town).

2.) What do you make of SB's vote on you? Why did he make it and what's your read on him?"

Why he voted me is a question that only he could answer, but from what I could understand, he feels like my actual relevant is too little despite my massive posts and doesn't like my unvote on you in D1. As for my read on him, tbh he didn't seem very noticeable for most of the game, which implies that there was nothing I especially felt was good or bad from what he said. I was surprised at his case on me, but while I obviously don't agree with his case, it doesn't noticeably radiate an aura of scum motivation, so it doesn't really affect my read on him much.

3.) If Elemina were confirmed town, how would that effect your reads list?

...did I ever make a reads list? Well, anyway, I am assuming that your question is asking about how the an isolated piece of information that Elemina is confirmed Town affects my current thoughts. Well, most of the current issues that I have with other players (besides Elemina) were not built upon the assumption that Elemina was scum. The only notable exception is Hober Mallow, whose devout Elemina defense seems unlikely to be a scum-protecting-town case. The knowledge that Elemina is confirmed Town would also likely affect my opinions of various players based on their interactions, but I believe this would depend heavily on the circumstances in which Elemina became confirmed Town (and not an isolated piece of info).

Proto/SB do you guys have a lynch priority? Proto especially, you seem to be reading D2 now but still lack a vote despite having suspicions on people. Your Ryker analysis is good and am looking forward to hearing from Ryker again though. I can see where SB is coming from too though with the lack of reads zzzzz.

(I pushed this post down here since my response was influenced by the posts I read later)

Elemina still seems the scummiest to me, but the points about her scumminess arising from her impulsive character are valid, so I'm not so sure about whether I want to lynch her today. I do want to see her putting in effort into trying to overcome her closed-minded tunneling/countercasing, and focus on reasonable open-minded scumhunting. Yes, I know it's subjective.

Aside from Elemina, Hober Mallow looks really terrible, but he subbed out so >_>.

Ryker also bothers me quite a bit (but nowhere near as much as the first half of D1), and his attitude about the D1 wagon, during both late-D1 and now in D2, gives me the impression that he didn't care too much about whether Green Poet was Town or Mafia, despite being dead set on lynching her D1, due to reasons like how too many people wanted her dead or that her play was bad. This kind of attitude is not conducive to scumhunting, but I'm unsure of whether it implies scum intent from Ryker. After all, his early D1 stunts already demonstrated that he likes doing his own thing even if it's detrimental to the Town's collective efforts to scumhunt through productive discussions.

I'm honestly not sure who I want to vote for, ugh. Can we just lynch Hober Mallow and let Elieson sub in for Refa instead?

Oh, I also want to hear from Blitz, because he should have compensated for his insomnia quite a while ago, but it seems that he overslept.

[Blitz]

I am really sorry I failed to do anything so far this day. I am only posting to say I will try very hard to be active tomorrow (very likely after work) and sorry for the inconvenience. (The reason for my inactivity is due to work, followed by chores, followed by teaching my nephew, followed by trying to fix the printer and failing, followed by entertaining guests, followed by going to my cousin's place to have dinner and work on another nephew's eagle scout project and then finally getting home now if anyone cares)

##Vote: Yolo

For now

[Zkirsche]

I thought you couldn't post because of your post restriction?

[Zkirsche]

Proto so I don't have to read your wall posts can you give top three reasons why we should lynch Mallow?

@ Boron:

[27/10/2016 03:12:48] Rohan Kulkarni: boron

[27/10/2016 03:12:51] Rohan Kulkarni: i'll sub

[27/10/2016 03:13:11] Rohan Kulkarni: if the dude can't hack it

Ask BBM to sub let's get the game going again.

[Elemina]

I did my re-read.

Still scum-read Refa.

Irony is newb-scum abusing the newbie card.

Yedi is prob scum.

Hober is null. Will only swing a lynch her if my above picks don't get the lynch.

I slightly like Yolo. I liked his question to Refa about her Yedi read.

I like Ryker.

I like SB.

I like Kirsche.

I like Blitz

I do not support a Rainbow wagon. I will provide reasoning in my next post. I have responses to people in my note pad.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Elemina]

Reasoning on Rainbow:

I see him scum reading scumtells on the surface. I do not think scum would push for sheeping or not giving reasoning. I really think he genuinely believes this. It's annoying that he sticks to it, but that's even more town. I also agree that his stream of consciousness post shows us his thought process and it's hard to fake as scum. His reaction to the GP wagon not being talked about (?) makes sense since he seems to be a common D1 lynch who understands the pain of being lynched and emotionally reacts to people simply 'moving on' as if it's all business (when Mafia is just business). I think town would more likely react this way than Mafia, as they might let it happen to further their own wincon. The only point that worries me is the 'keeping all options open' but I don't give it much weight since again, he is reading on the surface. I don't think it'd be easy for him to find solid town without truly looking under the surface.

So yeah, I'm not down for Rainbow. Scum picks in next post.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Elemina]

Irony: Uses roles to push scum reads. I dislike Irony's #733, due to using an excuse for missing part of Refa's play. Show's she isn't trying to determine Refa's alignment. Emphasis on trying, since newb. I find she is abusing the newbie card. I don't like how long it took her to finally vote. I know many people are on the fence with her, and I agree with Ryker that she can be a crap shoot, yet I highly prefer a cop on her.

Refa: I dislike a few things from Refa D2. His interactions with Green Poet. They don't seem like he is determining his alignment. It just feels weird. His wagon analysis, his drop of Irony from it and his Yedi read. Also, him putting Yedi as null shows that he knows Yedi at that time should be null but wants to townread him, and it shows with his weak town read reasoning on Yedi. Also, he never answered Yolo's question about his Yedi Town read and can't answer for his slot anymore. I don't like his Kirsche push, and it also doesn't sound believable. I also find Kirche's push solid. Also, do remember that there were times that Refa had not read my posts, and has done the same thing here on her attack on Kirsche.

Yedi: I don't find his Rainbow push convincing. I don't get that Rainbow was parroting. I also find his inactivity telling. I know Yedi likes being town, so I would expect a lot more [posts]. Also, a lot of his reads are rooted by his Irony town read, which is focusing on one post. Weak, but it's more gut too. It's also considering that scum may want to white knight a bit and considering that GP was town, I see that as likely. I see Yedi as mostly as he was pretty low on content and focused on a big defense post of me and a few other things. Yolo may fit that too but I have seen some good points from him, that I liked. (Telling Ryker Refa is null, asking Refa why she has a Yedi Town lean) I'd probably look more into Yedi after a Refa scum flip. Ryker I need your read over here.

Marrow: Null slot, can't decide either way with him. Didn't vote Refa with me. I find that concerning,

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Elemina]

SB:

It seems Ken Master's also thought it was 'bollocks', but I think it's better my way. I was briefly reading Ace Attourney mafia and early game seemed to take a really long time. It took a miller claim from Kirsche to break the ice a little. I think you explain it well: "We shit post until shit happens." I don't think that's good for the game at all, early game is the most important phase of the game. Now if you have that expectation, scum would also play in a similar way. (Possibly) I can't say that much because there are others I know that understand how to shake early game, and if any of them are scum they can play around it. If none of them are scum, I think it's likely scum were taking it easy without knowing "shit is happening fast."

Yet he was in early game and then fell off. You would think that if a player posts, that they would keep their posting consistent. (That's on being proactive) On motivation, I would expect town to have motivation to post. I don't understand after a 2 year break why someone would just join to fill a game and not actually want to play. On the mudslinging point, I simply disliked how he didn't have a direct stance on Green Poet. Fair enough on the 'stretching a null tell' being a refa thing. Fair enough on the analysis, going back and re-reading it, it looks to be more lazy, which was my problem. Coming back from all that time to only do some analysis, some responses. I think I gave reasons of his D2 play as well, and I don't like the direction he is going in. I like Kirsche and he has some good points.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Elemina]

Ryker:

I read your big Rainbow post and I considered it, and gave my conclusion in my #785. Talk to me about Yedi, Irony, and Refa. You say you like Refa better, please talk to me about that. Please.

Rainbow:

Here's the thing. With Refa, I had a gut feeling she was scum, and so I go and gather what I feel about her overall play. Your analysis expects scum to slip up and then have people look at that. I was looking under the surface. Obviously, Refa hadn't let down any scumslips, but I consider her entire motivation. Also, your reasoning is just wrong.

I disagree with your response to me originally, Rainbow. Naked votes can be unnerving. The thing is, the scum can't adapt their play if they don't know what part of their play they need to adapt. Now if you said that they know they *need* to be aware that part of their behavior may be telling, then yes, they know something may be off, just not what. I think where I disagree with you is having to have reasoning for a reaction test.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Elemina]

So, to compensate for my post restriction, I have waited for everyone to contribute so I can think of the big picture. Mostly, I waited until Yedi responded. Sorry if this feels a bit spammy, I'm trying to meet the post min or w/e so I can post more tomorrow.

Spamming the thread is a privilege, not a right. I have lost that privilege. XD

[Sunwoo]

​Elieson subs in for Refa.

[Elieson]

Hey guys, confirming.

Though it's almost 1am and I'm about to pass out but I've fortunately been kinda keeping up with this shitfest so at least I have some notes to throw out to yall in about 10-12 hours.

[Elieson]

My god I'm halfway up through Page 17 and this shitfest is indeed, a shitfest.

For now

F.O.S. Blitz

This guy's scum. His role is scummy, and up until post #323, his posts have done the absolute minimum of scumhunting with measurable tonnes of defense and fluff. #184 is more fluffy but features questioning without pressuring. Sadly, it's classic Scum!Blitz meta, but considering that I forgot about 1/3 of the way through his post, who was the original poster, the point still applies.

#2, Yedi. As of #257, votes kirsche but doesn't have a single logged scumread. After this storm of a thread, there's definitely stuff to comment on and build votes from. I don't care if you had a reason; you expressed literally nothing with it despite having ample time to do so.

#3, Hober Mallow, for posting quite a few times, empty posts, then voting for Green Tea with terrible justification.


Struggles:

YoloSwag: #158 has a scumread on GP but a nullread on Refa for the same exact things, and all 4 or so posts prior to it indicate that he wasn't even reading the thread yet. How do you even attempt to analyze someone's posts when they're not even showing signs of effort? It's a real conundrum.

Kirsche: #326. Posts before this were relatively ok but the Elemina analysis is borked because dissuading people from analyzing others is inherently bad, regardless of their activity. Your semantics read as really forced nonchalantness, and it's not jiving well with me.

Irony: I've pulled the noob!town card in my very first game of Mafia, on this site, about 5 years ago, so I'm being super wary of it. That said, his posts don't read as being coached or advised, and his semantics/terminology seem very natural and far too formal, which implies that there's little chat from another source for him to make adjustments for out of casual immersion to the world of mafia itself. I'm wary because Irony's a smart lad, All my chats with Lord Raven on this forum verify that but this doesn't feel out of place. I just don't have an inkling of meta to use as verification of my doubt on the noob!town!scum thing here.

Ryker: Oh Ryker, Will Ryker. Will Ryker stop filling the thread with fluff? After eggclipse showed up, Ryker showed a 180 in posting style and I like where it went. Gone seems to be the circling and carrot-on-a-string banter between him and Ken Masters (Spinal) (mostly), and now actual reads are coming up. I'll show you my full notes later but it's appalling just how many times I jotted down "not helping the game move forward." Keep up the witty snark though; it turns this game into an entertaining sitcom and you should know, I highly enjoy sitcoms.

Townreads:

You can have them later. Refa left a little list of reads in his PM for me to check out but I'm not Refa, I'm Elieson, so you're getting the full Jelly Belly Eliereads treatment instead.

[spoiler=Notes up to about half through the game]

1. Ryker 2. Rainbow 3. Refa OH HEY ME INSTEAD 4. Spinal 5. SB 6. Blitz 7. YOLOSWAG 8. Hober Mallow 9. kirsche 10. Elemina 11. Irony 13. Yedi #69 lol, has no reason to vote, but loads of buildup for what could've been a good vote. Hi scum #166 WALL, Valid points on Elemina early game, but it's outdated. Ryker reads are spot on. Points out baiting on Spinal (Ken) which I agree with 400% o.m.g. what the heck was #72 reaction, this guy's on fire (I'd vote for Will Ryker for the same thing though) I genuinely have nothing on SB right now and borrowing Refa's thoughts of "-Stay suspicious of SB IMO, I'm not scumreading him but something about the slot bothers me."

Claims OddNight Insom/Post Limit. I immediately don't trust it #131/#132 have you read a single post yet? #191 Try scumhunting bro #326 Bingo, found a mafia. Elemina analysis is borked because dissuading people from analyzing players is inherently bad, regardless of activity and overall your semantics feel like a forced nonchalant Elemina's P1 List.. Opts for immediate NL. #257 FINALLY SOMETHING. After 250+ posts, why do you not actually have a scumread despite voting for kirsche? #76 don't say quality > quantity until it's a concern needing evaluation #274 Another fucking wall omg this wall had nothing but conversational responses in it #184, BIG REPLY, little content. Mostly questioning, without accusation or pressure. LET'S SEE THIS FOLLOWUP POST #154 scum but not lurkscum #194 TRY SCUMHUNTING BRO #34 WAY TOO MUCH LOGIC WITH TOO LITTLE INFO Ryker says a whole lot of nothing (Page 5 and 6). Spend time hunting scum or just lead town in circles discussing opinions on play style, idc what scum does since it's basically all scumposting r.n. #323 has like one counterpoint on Elemenia and a whole bunch of defense #158 How can you scumread GP but nullread Refa for the same things #248 Disgusting vote for GP Decent input in #99. Mechanics discussion isn't scumhunting, but Irony needs the help #117 if I were a betting man, I'd call this a clever little bus Valid push in #142. Unnecessary as a bus. If Blitz is scum, this is town #139 You're a snarky little punk and I'm loving it but you're still not actually contributing #180, an unwinnable argument. For every "I like to keep secrets and reveal them later" there's a fair counter of "You're just reacting in a way that's appealing to those accusing you. It's a pointless point #174 Lovely snark again, but seriously, being the center of attention and leading the game in circles for no evident reason is not helping the game move forward, unless you're scum looking for an early grave #256, a Numbers claim. Highly unusual. Not the role itself, it's been here a lot before, but the timing. #214 D1 scumreads -are- assumptions. Please #279 This is not a bad post at all. Moreso, it's a good post. Also I highly agree with Blitzread. Why can't you post like this all the time?

[Elieson]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FACK my Excel Table didn't port over properly, at all.

[spoiler=Ryker]








#69 lol, has no reason to vote, but loads of buildup for what could've been a good vote. Hi scum



#76 don't say quality > quantity until it's a concern needing evaluation



Ryker says a whole lot of nothing (Page 5 and 6). Spend time hunting scum or just lead town in circles discussing opinions on play style, idc what scum does since it's basically all scumposting r.n.



#117 if I were a betting man, I'd call this a clever little bus



#139 You're a snarky little punk and I'm loving it but you're still not actually contributing



#174 Lovely snark again, but seriously, being the center of attention and leading the game in circles for no evident reason is not helping the game move forward, unless you're scum looking for an early grave



#214 D1 scumreads -are- assumptions. Please



#279 This is not a bad post at all. Moreso, it's a good post. Also I highly agree with Blitzread. Why can't you post like this all the time?

[spoiler=Proto]







#166 WALL, Valid points on Elemina early game, but it's outdated. Ryker reads are spot on. Points out baiting on Spinal (Ken) which I agree with 400%



#274 Another fucking wall omg this wall had nothing but conversational responses in it

[spoiler=Spinal]




o.m.g. what the heck was #72 reaction, this guy's on fire (I'd vote for Will Ryker for the same thing though)

[spoiler=SB]I genuinely have nothing on SB right now and borrowing Refa's thoughts of "-Stay suspicious of SB IMO, I'm not scumreading him but something about the slot bothers me."

[spoiler=Blitz]







Claims OddNight Insom/Post Limit. I immediately don't trust it



#184, BIG REPLY, little content. Mostly questioning, without accusation or pressure. LET'S SEE THIS FOLLOWUP POST



#323 has like one counterpoint on Elemenia and a whole bunch of defense

[spoiler=YOLOSWAG]







#131/#132 have you read a single post yet?



#154 scum but not lurkscum



#158 How can you scumread GP but nullread Refa for the same things

[spoiler=Hober Mallow]







#191 Try scumhunting bro



#194 TRY SCUMHUNTING BRO



#248 Disgusting vote for GP

[spoiler=kirsche]




#326 Bingo, found a mafia. Elemina analysis is borked because dissuading people from analyzing players is inherently bad, regardless of activity and overall your semantics feel like a forced nonchalant

[spoiler=Elemina]







Elemina's P1 List..



#34 WAY TOO MUCH LOGIC WITH TOO LITTLE INFO



Decent input in #99. Mechanics discussion isn't scumhunting, but Irony needs the help



Valid push in #142. Unnecessary as a bus. If Blitz is scum, this is town



#180, an unwinnable argument. For every "I like to keep secrets and reveal them later" there's a fair counter of "You're just reacting in a way that's appealing to those accusing you. It's a pointless point



#256, a Numbers claim. Highly unusual. Not the role itself, it's been here a lot before, but the timing.

[spoiler=Irony]




Opts for immediate NL.

[spoiler=Yedi]




#257 FINALLY SOMETHING. After 250+ posts, why do you not actually have a scumread despite voting for kirsche?

Here this should've ported over properly

[Elieson]

OK that worked.

I've got meetings to jump into for about 2 hours so I'll tackle the second half of D1 when I get back but tl;dr Why haven't we lynched blitz yet

[Kriemhild]

I'm liking Elemina better because her D2 posts seem a lot more calmer and reasonable (no more kitchen sink tossing). Her Yedi read seems especially interesting to me, since I never played with him before and have a hard time reading him, so it's nice to know what players who played with him before feel about his play, even if it's just gut.

While I don't quite agree with her case on Refa, it doesn't seem ridiculous, and I'm not really townreading Refa myself so idk. And while this might seem really silly, I actually feel better about Refa after he subbed out, because it makes me suspect that there were irl issues that caused his noticeable lack of motivation in D1 (which, fyi, is not normal Refa play in my experience). Then again, Refa is Town 95% of the time and is usually super active, so I do see some merit to Elemina's point about how getting a scum role killed his motivation.

As for Irony, her newbtown aura just "feels" genuine to me. I can't really explain it, but I can't imagine either newbscum or experiencedscum pulling such a good act. Her first D1 post did feel off to me, I admit, so it is possible that she was improving her act, but idk, the way she also seems to be learning how to better contribute to productive discussions just feels too real.

I know I said that Hober Mallow's hard Elemina defense didn't feel like scum-protecting-town, but Elemina's point about Yedi white-knighting made me reconsider that Hober Mallow just might have done that too: hard-defending Elemina while thinking she would genuinely be lynched so that he could earn tons of towncred.

I still don't like Ryker but Hober Mallow is worse, so ##Vote: Hober Mallow

I need to go now and won't be back until much later (Mondays and Fridays are my busy days), but I should be able to come online for a bit a few hours before the phase ends (but I won't be here at deadline itself). Please don't hammer me until I come back.

[Zkirsche]

If Mallow was scum Elie would've been put into his slot instead.

[Zkirsche]

Unless both Mallow and Refa are scum I suppose.

[Zkirsche]

Elieson why is Blitz's role scummy?

[Elieson]

Elieson why is Blitz's role scummy?

It just reminds me of scum!Kaoz in Healer mafia in some way

[Irony]

So, as Elieson has replaced Refa, I'm going to try and read Elison's posts.

Ok:

1) The reads are interesting, and make sense. (Though I will say that I'm female (again)) I like your reasoning. I'm interested in what your view on SB is, especially as Refa seems so weary of him. I'm also interested in what Blitz and Yedi's responses to your reads would be.

2) I agree with you- I do need the help. I'm trying to read up on roles/rules and stuff, and it's a lot to take in.

3) I guess you're in the ensemble? In all honesty, you are probably in my "I'm not sure yet" pile, mainly because you've just subbed in, but you're working your way through the entire thread, taking notes and trying to progress the Town's development. I kinda trust you?

Also @kirchse- what if both Refa and Hober Mallow were Town? How would that affect the subbing?