Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Ryker]

If Blitz is scum, Ryker may be scum. (Due to his early vote on Blitz) Purely meta related.

Where did THAT come from?

[Ryker]

I know that it's not B). I am the role blocker, but my role has been limited in such a way that I'm basically a Vanilla Ensemble at the moment. Maybe we could add an option C) That there's a body guard who protected the person being killed on Night 1, but option A) is more likely. If that's the case, and Kirsche saved Proto/Rainbow and/or SB, it is safe to assume that they are Ensemble members.

This is wrong on so many levels.

1.) No one requested or needed information about your role. NEVER volunteer it unless there is tangible need. Eliminating a possibility that isn't being acted upon is not tangible need.

2.) Bodyguards DIE if they successfully protect. The difference between a doctor and a body guard is that the body guard takes the night kill IN PLACE OF the target.

3.) I can think of about half a dozen other ways for the mafia to have failed a kill, so it's not like those are the only options. They are just unlikely. Unless we have extremely convincing evidence that Kirsche protected a specific person AND no other role turns up that could've effected it when we eventually get to mass claim, we should not be assuming anything about that role.

4.) Finally why are you taking Rainbow's analysis without questioning it first? what if Kirsche decided to protect someone else because he thought them a more likely kill target?

I HATE reading this slot. You get things like that claim that cause me to double take because I doubt scum would do that, but then you get things like the complete lack of inquisition that I've never seen out of a new player. She takes everything everyone says at face value and proceeds to see about turning that information in some direction or other (or just repeating it).

[Ryker]

3) I said it before- Ryker, Hober, YOLOSWAG, maybe Emelina and Yedi (based on Blitz's comment). I'm also torn about SB, as I read a prior game where she was Mafia, and the behaviours seemed similar (but I'm not sure on this one.)

What game and similar how?

[Irony]

This is wrong on so many levels.

1.) No one requested or needed information about your role. NEVER volunteer it unless there is tangible need. Eliminating a possibility that isn't being acted upon is not tangible need.

2.) Bodyguards DIE if they successfully protect. The difference between a doctor and a body guard is that the body guard takes the night kill IN PLACE OF the target.

3.) I can think of about half a dozen other ways for the mafia to have failed a kill, so it's not like those are the only options. They are just unlikely. Unless we have extremely convincing evidence that Kirsche protected a specific person AND no other role turns up that could've effected it when we eventually get to mass claim, we should not be assuming anything about that role.

4.) Finally why are you taking Rainbow's analysis without questioning it first? what if Kirsche decided to protect someone else because he thought them a more likely kill target?

I HATE reading this slot. You get things like that claim that cause me to double take because I doubt scum would do that, but then you get things like the complete lack of inquisition that I've never seen out of a new player. She takes everything everyone says at face value and proceeds to see about turning that information in some direction or other (or just repeating it).

1) The reason that I claimed the role is that I knew that there would be some people who would consider option B (that the role blocker did something on night 1) and would waste their energy discussing that, when I knew that it wasn't even necessary. I wanted to make sure that the discussions that we had were productive, and not on discussing certain possibilities which I knew didn't happen. Yes, I know that no one asked, but I felt that the information was necessary.

2) Forgot about that. My bad.

3) Can you say the other ways that a kill couldn't have happened on night 1?

4) Because Rainbow's reasoning makes sense? It's based on what Kirches's readings were, and it does consider all of the options that there could have been.

5) Sorry?

[Irony]

What game and similar how?

It was the Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia game, and to quote the Postgame analysis of SB:

"Mafia

Role: Priest + No-Flip Restless Spirit Self-Vote Activator/Deactivator + Persuader

Play Analysis: Played pretty standard and avoided doing a lot. Blending in worked well for SB since other people were constantly in the spotlight. Lurked really really heavily though, and could've easily been pushed."

I have seen SB lurking around the thread before, and not comment anything, and SB has been blending in well a lot. Also, based on the fact that not many people have been commenting on SB's play style, I guess SB is playing pretty standard? As I said, I have been trying to learn a lot here, so I'm not 100% on my reading, but I am trying to get better. (seriously, you know when you said I was a shot in the dark? That's how I feel about pretty much everyone at the moment :/ .)

[Ryker]

1.) Oh? Well, how productive is it if you are prevented from ever blocking scum because they now know who is the roleblocker? What if, for example, hey have a bus driver, so you are actively blocking town when you attempt to? Contrary to popular belief, the discussion can be steered from unproductive lines (like nkill speculation after a single kill in general) without a role claim.

3.) We have a bulletproof. Another roleblocking ability exists. Another doctor exists. The mafia can holster their gun. The mafia doesn't HAVE a night kill on odd numbered nights. The mafia targeted a mafia traitor who's ability recruits him into the mafia if he is targeted by a night kill. I have encountered all of those situations and more that could effect the kill in a closed set-up.

4.) What were Kirsche's reads? Do you remember? Who were his top scum picks? What was his reasoning for his town picks? I read Rainbow's post and saw MULTIPLE flaws with his logic in assuming Kirsche's town reads. Did you check to see if it was consistent with the actual reads? Did it match what you remember of his scum reads?

5.) That wasn't directed at you. It was about you, but it was directed at everyone else.

[Ryker]

I have seen SB lurking around the thread before, and not comment anything, and SB has been blending in well a lot. Also, based on the fact that not many people have been commenting on SB's play style, I guess SB is playing pretty standard? As I said, I have been trying to learn a lot here, so I'm not 100% on my reading, but I am trying to get better. (seriously, you know when you said I was a shot in the dark? That's how I feel about pretty much everyone at the moment :/ .)

How does SB being the lead pusher on the Rainbow wagon for the back half of D2 effect that read?

[Ryker]

Also, for the record, I am conceited. I am sometimes a smartass. I am not, however, a bad guy.

I would love to talk to you about mafia in general and how to improve if you are actually a new player, but you have signed up to play without me having that assurance, so I must somehow figure out if you are a new player or not.

[Irony]

1.) Oh? Well, how productive is it if you are prevented from ever blocking scum because they now know who is the roleblocker? What if, for example, hey have a bus driver, so you are actively blocking town when you attempt to? Contrary to popular belief, the discussion can be steered from unproductive lines (like nkill speculation after a single kill in general) without a role claim.

3.) We have a bulletproof. Another roleblocking ability exists. Another doctor exists. The mafia can holster their gun. The mafia doesn't HAVE a night kill on odd numbered nights. The mafia targeted a mafia traitor who's ability recruits him into the mafia if he is targeted by a night kill. I have encountered all of those situations and more that could effect the kill in a closed set-up.

4.) What were Kirsche's reads? Do you remember? Who were his top scum picks? What was his reasoning for his town picks? I read Rainbow's post and saw MULTIPLE flaws with his logic in assuming Kirsche's town reads. Did you check to see if it was consistent with the actual reads? Did it match what you remember of his scum reads?

5.) That wasn't directed at you. It was about you, but it was directed at everyone else.

1) I don't think I'm going to get the chance at this rate, even if I hadn't claimed my role. :( And how could the discussion have been veered away from unproductive discussions without a role claim? I am confused.

3) Oh, right. I didn't even know about half of those options (I knew that the Bulletproof exists, but apart from that, I didn't know the other roles)

4) What were the flaws in Rainbow's logic? I will need to reread everything and make sure. Including Kirsche's ISO readings. Need to make sure of everything after all.

5) Oh, ok.

[Ryker]

ALSO, I just noticed I have received a posting restriction like Elemina. Something, something, something, compliments and kindness.

I however, find it demeaning and will not play long on principle. I am greatly annoyed Elemina was willing to play considering the posting restriction he was forced to deal with. Mine comes accompanied with nothing that should effect the game (like limiting my posts) other than forcing me to give lip service to a posting restriction that I find insulting.

[Irony]

Also, for the record, I am conceited. I am sometimes a smartass. I am not, however, a bad guy.

I would love to talk to you about mafia in general and how to improve if you are actually a new player, but you have signed up to play without me having that assurance, so I must somehow figure out if you are a new player or not.

That I can try and answer.

Even though I've played Werewolf Before, I had never even heard of Mafia until recently. It would be fun to talk to you about Mafia though. :)

[Ryker]

If I'm modkilled, I truly did enjoy playing here and I hope I didn't ruin too many people's day. I'm glad I had a chance to hang out with you guys and I hope to do it again sometime. This is something against what I believe in for the game and had I known it existed, I wouldn't have joined.

[Ryker]

Sorry for wasting everyone's time if this ends up getting me modkilled and ruining to game for everyone else.

I'll stop posting now and wait for the mod to get home.

[Ryker]

I do find it ironic that this is happening to me. When I first started playing, YOLOSWAG got modkilled in a similar fashion due to a role I pulled.

[Irony]

##Vote: Post Restrictions

In all seriousness, if Ryker didn't know about his post restrictions until after he broke the restrictions, is it even fair to mod kill him? If he had known, then he wouldn't have broken them, so it's not deliberate intent?

[Ryker]

No. I would have broken it. It stands against a hard and fast rule I have about mafia games involving how you can treat players.

[Irony]

No. I would have broken it. It stands against a hard and fast rule I have about mafia games involving how you can treat players.

Ah, ok.

[Blitz]

@Ken Masters, if I am reading this right, why did you pick Elemina over Ryker? (If you didn't, just tell me I am wrong)

@Irony

I don't think the Mafia knew his exact role, so I guess he was killed because of his posts? (Maybe the Mafia thought he was a threat?)
As for who he saved... Maybe one of the people who commented frequently?? So, like Ryker, Emelina, Blitz, myself... As they stood out more.
Well, the Mafia would gain most from killing Kirsche. But then we don't know who is in the Mafia, so... :/

fair

why do you think those were one of the people targeted, other than just standing out?

that doesn't make sense, if you think only the mafia would gain from killing him, you would think they know his role, which is why they killed him no?
also, I was meaning people who you think it would help out by removing him based on his posts... would like you to get further on this as well.

1.) No one requested or needed information about your role. NEVER volunteer it unless there is tangible need. Eliminating a possibility that isn't being acted upon is not tangible need.

fact. If you had hooked someone N1, you should have come out on D2 with the possibility of the hooked being town, IMO.

@Ryker,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I just thought about something.

Do mafia on SF generally receive safe claims? As in, roles they can claim and know not to be in the game?

Depends on the mod. Normally, Boron just gives roles that can go both ways, iirc (but I haven't played a Boron game other than AM/PM for a while, SB would know better)

I want you to respond to this

Also, have you read my case on Yedi, if so, why do you have no issues with him/What are your issues with my case?

[Blitz]

I am gonna post my Yedi case again,

The base of the case is that he calls me scum on the basis of what I have done, yet is not telling the truth about what I have done

1) I dislike Blitz because many of his posts (albeit mostly the early ones) have him making statements and asking questions but it doesn't feel like he's drawing any conclusions off of these statements / questions. Like I couldn't figure out what his reads were despite having read a bunch of his content. it's pretty easy for scum to just feign activity in this way without committing to shit.

2) I did like however like Blitz's post about HM though (with reasoning that someone else followed up on). Though from what I remember he didn't vote HM off of it which I was hoping he would

2.1) actually this was one of the posts I read that I felt like you explicitly didn't push HM. and what I mean by push is that you said a lot of stuff about how you disliked his slot however that post is missing a vote.

3) also just cuz I generally don't like his reads.

1) I can agree that I asked a lot of questions and didn't take a lot of the answers into the next post, but claiming I do not have reads is absolutely wrong. I have provided reads for a lot of players, at the point when he had made this post, they just weren't on the same post. Now that I reread your ISO, I realize, Yedi actually had less reads then me outed in thread and still called me out for it (blatant hypocrisy)

2)/2.1) are both wrong, because I pushed for Hober with my first actual case post, along with a vote, here

3) Never mentioning which of my reads he didn't like (other than Elemina read) and why and he also claims he liked my Hober read...

He also never got back to me with a good agreeable case, I asked for on a player other than Proto, but all he did was go for a weak push on Yolo.

I want everyone to mention what they think of Yedi based on my case and my case as well

I basically want a lynch on Yedi today

[Irony]

@Ken Masters, if I am reading this right, why did you pick Elemina over Ryker? (If you didn't, just tell me I am wrong)

@Irony

fair

why do you think those were one of the people targeted, other than just standing out?

that doesn't make sense, if you think only the mafia would gain from killing him, you would think they know his role, which is why they killed him no?

also, I was meaning people who you think it would help out by removing him based on his posts... would like you to get further on this as well.

fact. If you had hooked someone N1, you should have come out on D2 with the possibility of the hooked being town, IMO.

@Ryker,

Depends on the mod. Normally, Boron just gives roles that can go both ways, iirc (but I haven't played a Boron game other than AM/PM for a while, SB would know better)I want you to respond to this

Also, have you read my case on Yedi, if so, why do you have no issues with him/What are your issues with my case?

I guess maybe I had said something that would incriminate a Mafia member? Or maybe the fact that I was No lynching Day 1 kinda intrerested them? I'm not sure, I just trying to work stuff out.

That is true. I should expand on that. When I wrote that, I was thinking "Oh, the Mafia don't know his role, but the fact they got lucky and lynched him without knowing his role benefits them as a Mafia."

Will need to look and see who that benefits.

And again, apologies for disclosing my role. When I did that, I was genuinely thinking "Right, I know it's not option B. There's no benefit of me just sitting there keeping this information secret. I don't want to do this, but I will do, in order to prevent people from barking up the wrong tree."

And, you know I said that my role has been limited severely? I haven't been allowed to block anyone actually. So I can't comment on that stuff.

[Blitz]

@Irony,

I wanted a good analysis on who you thought had gotten shot and why, not one liners about yourself...

and will be waiting on your, who might gain from killing Kirsche.

[Elieson]

So much happened from the time I went to sleep and woke up, and tbh I really didn't put that much into the game overnight because I had too many surprises come up with my kids that kept me from even looking at my computer nonetheless logging in to check the game.

After a super-fast skim, I don't remember kirsche ever having claimed Doc, nor do I recall him being the epitome of town. This post looks like it breaks down a worthwhile case on why Mafia would've gone Doc-hunting. I question though why it'd only be WIFOM if I would've wanted kirsche dead, since:

Other people were kinda scumreading him too

He kept deathtunneling me (refa) with logic that no one else seemed to agree with

I might kill him if I were a Vig and he were CC'ing me or something but there's no net gain to aiming for kirsche unless I had reason to, since it's still kinda midgame and other stronger townie players definitely exist.

Irony, why did you claim?

ALSO, I just noticed I have received a posting restriction like Elemina. Something, something, something, compliments and kindness.

I however, find it demeaning and will not play long on principle. I am greatly annoyed Elemina was willing to play considering the posting restriction he was forced to deal with. Mine comes accompanied with nothing that should effect the game (like limiting my posts) other than forcing me to give lip service to a posting restriction that I find insulting.

Did it say you'd get modkilled if you didn't adhere to posting some My Little Pony stuff or w/e? After a skim, it only looked like Elemina had one line of copypasta to stick at the end of their post. That doesn't really inhibit scumhunting. If anything, I'd expect you to prove a point by finding scum and putting up with it, just so you could prove the point of how superior you are.

[Elieson]

@Elieson: Why do you think Blitz's role is scummy? I might get what you're thinking here but I don't want to give you an answer if you're bullshitting so I'd like to hear this first. I also disagree from a meta standpoint because I think Blitz has a lot of useless/semi-useless posts as town, but it feels like he's had more direction in this game.

Scum having a powerful role to balance out a posting hinderance makes sense, because Insomniac with limited Day-time posting is super anti-town. The entire role is bad for a townie. It's worse than a miller because Millers can still at least churn out posts (and votes) at the same pace as any other player. IMO for balancing purposes, something negative for standard gameplay (being able to post alongside the rest of the game) requires something of equal or greater value as a modifier to the role.

@Elieson: Expand on what you mean about Healer Kaoz pls. That's completely different to what I thought you were doing.

Healer!Kaoz was scum. Healer!Kaoz was banned from in-thread posting. Healer!Kaoz has an incredible role to make up for it.

Therefore, IMO:

Blitz is scum because I cannot fathom this game featuring a role that forbids a player from being able to play along with the rest of the game without something else to balance it out.

[Blitz]

Blitz is scum because I cannot fathom this game featuring a role that forbids a player from being able to play along with the rest of the game without something else to balance it out.

Elie, get off my role and look at my other games if you want reference on my roles claims, any game at all, where I claimed my role. They all have something in common. I am not going to expound on this anymore.

and still waiting on you to catch up.

[Elieson]

Just got to page 30 and I noticed that the GP case was trashy, especially by people such as Hober Mallow and Ryker (his initial case). Refa's GP read was pretty lazy IMO (which i hate to admit since it's my ancestor's read but still I didn't think it was well founded).

Green Poet going after the obvtownie is disgusting.

This post and its logic is disgusting.

wtf, elemina is such a bad push.

they're literally my number one town read. i can't wait to read the reasoning behind thinking that one of the most active and open players this game is scum

rereading up now.

Since when does activity = town? Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

no time to read indepth tonight

will move vote if necessary. do we need a majority?

I forgot you were playing

##Vote Hober Mallow

F.O.S.: Blitz I know when you're fakeclaiming bro. ALso your Yedi case doesn't exist as strongly as you say they do because posting scumreads about yedi not pushing his scumreads is almost hypocritical in itself. You asked questions and didn't follow through on them. yedi poked people and didn't either. In yedi's case, he posted half-assed cases on early content, implying that the [scumhunting] intention is there but the effort is not. I disagree with your logic here, but I'm willing to agree to disagree on something you feel so strongly about, since you feel so strongly about it. IMO it's a basic case that'd work well early D1 but it shouldn't be the prolific foundation of a case halfway through the game.

F.O.S. 2.0 Kinda Sorta: YOLOSWAG If you're struggling to cite stuff when you post reads can you try to at least do that so we can understand your train of thought a little bit better?