Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 12 minutes ago, Augestein said: Besides, if it's that much of a problem, just put Shade on him earlier on. It... Actually works. And since he isn't OHKOed, you can keep him from dying. I'm glad to see other people give Edward respect too. I highly doubt it'll work. Shade is next to useless, let alone on someone who's in range of dying. I just had him block certain chokepoints and stuff. You can actually control Wrath well with Herbs and Vulneraries. 1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said: The thing is, his ranged options suck. Relying on a 60 hit/6mt weapon for range is far from ideal. We'll get to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet_Basil Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Soul~! said: Trust me, at this point of the game, it's not. And there's also two of them. Soren's availability allows him to do much more, thanks to his amazing BEXP slowplay ability. If you rush his Exp-gain on the first chapters, he'll cap Skill & Res pretty much instantly. With that in mind, you can bring HP, Spd & Luck up. While there isn't a ton of hope for his Def going up, you ought to give him at least an Angelic Robe (which he can also use to bring up lower stats, possibly Def). If you can do that somewhere around 3-5 & 3-7, he's Beast Mode. Support him with Ike, and that's an awesome +30 Avo/+2 Atk. Resolve makes him a real monster, but it may not even be necessary. Soren has like 5 chapters in which he can be a badass before Callil can do much, assuming you're giving them similiar amount of attention. I used him recently in HM and he wasn't as good as I expected. 2HKO by everything, couldn't keep up with the rest on 3-P and after 3-1 but most importantly he couldn't double until the very end. However I didn't think about bringing resolve to him with Ilyana. The "Best Sage" title doesn't belong to him imo. Edited February 2, 2017 by Sweet_Basil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 It's very important to read the setup I propose in the first place, otherwise it just sounds like I'm heavily skewing absolutely everything in their favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunal Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Soul~! said: Theory is like how Edward sucks because he can't dodge and gets fucked by Wrath. Then you realise you're actually capable of thinking and can choose not to send him at a horde of enemies at base level. Well if I'm "capable of thinking": A) A lot of enemies put Edward into the 30-50% health range and not in wrath range. This problem actually gets worse if he procs DEF/HP. B) Wrath is 50% crit, not 100% crit. You can't outright risk a proc on an melee enemy; not crit and then die. C) Needs to chug a vulnerary every turn to not be killed on next attack, or have Laura babysit. D) Cannot be attacked by 2 enemies on enemy phase due to said lack of avoid. Wrath doesn't exactly change that. 29 minutes ago, Augestein said: Besides, if it's that much of a problem, just put Shade on him earlier on. It... Actually works. And since he isn't OHKOed, you can keep him from dying. I'm glad to see other people give Edward respect too. It's less that people don't respect him, but more that he isn't an 8-9/10 unit. I "respect" Meg but still give her a 3/10 (and that's generous). Edited February 2, 2017 by DLuna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I mean, you're not wrong. Again, in theory. This ended up working well with planning, granted, like you said, it's not 100% critical. But isn't this game built upon chances, at times? 50% is a shit ton of critical, and gets even worse (see: better) when you give him a max Crit. forge. He was pretty critical crucial for making a lot of the earlygame chapters quicker, making 1-4 a lot faster by being the only one to take out Tigers faster and levels are pretty easy in 1-5, since he can double and 1RKO enemies like Mages and stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Quote I highly doubt it'll work. Shade is next to useless, let alone on someone who's in range of dying. I just had him block certain chokepoints and stuff. You can actually control Wrath well with Herbs and Vulneraries. It isn't. Shade does work when a person isn't in OHKO range. The reason is sucks so much in PoR is because you don't need it as everyone is too durable. In RD? It's pretty good for people like Edward, because it literally means you can pick and choose when you want him to go into Wrath range and have people cover for him without ever having to worry about the ever classic "everyone gangs up on Edward and kills him on Enemy Phase because he is the frontliner with the lowest defense." The AI is stupid (or Shade actually works honestly), and it actually puts them REALLY low on the cue for attacking unless they are in KO range. So you can pick and choose when you want to do it. Shade and Provoke are things that need number tweaking in order to truly shine. Quote It's less that people don't respect him, but more that he isn't an 8-9/10 unit. I "respect" Meg but still give her a 3/10 (and that's generous). You rated Ed higher than I did haha. I respect Meg as well, and you scored her higher as well. Aran- just doesn't do it for me. Quote I mean, you're not wrong. Again, in theory. This ended up working well with planning, granted, like you said, it's not 100% critical. But isn't this game built upon chances, at times? 50% is a shit ton of critical, and gets even worse (see: better) when you give him a max Crit. forge. He was pretty critical crucial for making a lot of the earlygame chapters quicker, making 1-4 a lot faster by being the only one to take out Tigers faster and levels are pretty easy in 1-5, since he can double and 1RKO enemies like Mages and stuff. Technically it's 55% base in Wrath range because of Myrmidon innate critical. Edited February 2, 2017 by Augestein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet_Basil Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Provoke definitely works, or enemies really hate Shinnon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 48 minutes ago, Augestein said: It isn't. Shade does work when a person isn't in OHKO range. The reason is sucks so much in PoR is because you don't need it as everyone is too durable. In RD? It's pretty good for people like Edward, because it literally means you can pick and choose when you want him to go into Wrath range and have people cover for him without ever having to worry about the ever classic "everyone gangs up on Edward and kills him on Enemy Phase because he is the frontliner with the lowest defense." The AI is stupid (or Shade actually works honestly), and it actually puts them REALLY low on the cue for attacking unless they are in KO range. So you can pick and choose when you want to do it. I meant KO range, yeah. Otherwise, what's the point. I also just realised you can combo (innate) Wrath, Resove and Vantage on Edward. Like wtflol, this makes it even fucking more reliable (same with Zihark). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, Soul~! said: I meant KO range, yeah. Otherwise, what's the point. I also just realised you can combo (innate) Wrath, Resove and Vantage on Edward. Like wtflol, this makes it even fucking more reliable (same with Zihark). The point is that it lets you pick and chose when and where. If he's in 2HKO range, feel free to leave Edward in a wide open field without needing to be covered with Shade. Take it off after he promotes and do whatever you want him with. And yes, Wrath + Resolve + 10% critical at least is really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said: Provoke definitely works, or enemies really hate Shinnon. To be fair, he is in a class that tends to be an attack magnet anyway. 8 minutes ago, Augestein said: The point is that it lets you pick and chose when and where. If he's in 2HKO range, feel free to leave Edward in a wide open field without needing to be covered with Shade. Take it off after he promotes and do whatever you want him with. And yes, Wrath + Resolve + 10% critical at least is really good. IF you can set it up, which might not be a guarantee. Edited February 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Quote IF you can set it up, which might not be a guarantee. What? Shade or Wrath? Shade you can definitely always guarantee. Wrath? Not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Augestein said: What? Shade or Wrath? Shade you can definitely always guarantee. Wrath? Not so much. The Wrath/Resolve combo. Of course, I could say the same of Wrath itself, which I maintain is better used by someone who has better ranged weapons than lousy wind edges. Edited February 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 People forget he can actually effectively snipe with Storm Sword + Paragon/Wrath. A Storm Sword critical + a normal shot KO's Tigers with 20 Str (or 18 Str + 2 Atk from, like, Leo). Edward can fill many roles effectively. Wind Edges KO Cats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, Soul~! said: People forget he can actually effectively snipe with Storm Sword + Paragon/Wrath. A Storm Sword critical + a normal shot KO's Tigers with 20 Str (or 18 Str + 2 Atk from, like, Leo). Edward can fill many roles effectively. Wind Edges KO Cats. Remember what I said about wind edges being pretty lousy? Storm Swords are better on the power front, but their accuracy is even worse at 50, and Micaiah has no authority stars to shore that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeigansucksexp Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 11 hours ago, Soul~! said: Theory is like how Edward sucks because he can't dodge and gets fucked by Wrath. Then you realise you're actually capable of thinking and can choose not to send him at a horde of enemies at base level. then you realise hes not worth feeding exp to and you bench him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, jeigansucksexp said: then you realise hes not worth feeding exp to and you bench him Except it's false. People really have self fulfilling prophecies here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 I think it depends on the purpose of the unit. As for Edward even if his strength and defense are awful, he still can do a bit in part 3 against the laguz. With wrath and range swords he's still a good chipper at least. It happened in lots of runs that Nolan's strength and speed didn't grow and so he became unusable in part 3. He was onerounded by 18 speed tigers and can't even do anything with hand / short axes. (max. 10 damage to the cats with awful hitrate). Shade can even prevent even a potential fatal attack, but it's luckbased. I have no idea how the A.I. In this game exactly works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Augestein said: Except it's false. People really have self fulfilling prophecies here. Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, it's hard to deny that Edward is the exact type of unit the Dawn Brigade has no need for - AKA, a fragile melee unit. 50 minutes ago, Eleanor Hume said: I think it depends on the purpose of the unit. As for Edward even if his strength and defense are awful, he still can do a bit in part 3 against the laguz. With wrath and range swords he's still a good chipper at least. It happened in lots of runs that Nolan's strength and speed didn't grow and so he became unusable in part 3. He was onerounded by 18 speed tigers and can't even do anything with hand / short axes. (max. 10 damage to the cats with awful hitrate). Shade can even prevent even a potential fatal attack, but it's luckbased. I have no idea how the A.I. In this game exactly works. Seems you didn't read the part where wind edges are pathetic and storm swords are even worse in the accuracy department... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Then support him with someone who gives him accuracy like Laura. With A he can get up +15 hit. Perfectly you support him with Meg. Since everyone can be deployed in part 3 it's the best option for Edward to fix his hit issues. You really sound like as if nothing can be repaired and everyone with one single issue is automatically disqualified for you. It belongs more to the given ressources than only the units's and weapons's stats. Edited February 2, 2017 by Eleanor Hume Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Eleanor Hume said: Then support him with someone who gives him accuracy like Laura. With A he can get up +15 hit. Perfectly you support him with Meg. Since everyone can be deployed in part 3 it's the best option for Edward to fix his hit issues. You really sound like as if nothing can be repaired and everyone with one single issue is automatically disqualified for you. It belongs more to the given ressources than only the units's and weapons's stats. The thing is, outside of Erward himself, only three other characters have hit boosting affinities, and one of those is pathetic in every sense of the word, not to mention hopeless beyond saving, and another already has a support. Not that it matters, because I think Edward is himself a no-hoper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet_Basil Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Levant your suggestions are too close minded and old fashioned, I suggest being a little more open minded. Strategies don't need to be linear, and using other characters other than the typical suggestions or supports other than Earth are perfectly fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said: I think it depends on the purpose of the unit. As for Edward even if his strength and defense are awful, he still can do a bit in part 3 against the laguz. Dude, if he can kill Laguz, he eats Beorc for breakfast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sweet_Basil said: Levant your suggestions are too close minded and old fashioned, I suggest being a little more open minded. Strategies don't need to be linear, and using other characters other than the typical suggestions or supports other than Earth are perfectly fine. Have you actually stopped to think as to why I might think this way, or are you just saying this to chastise me? Edited February 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Sweet_Basil said: Levant your suggestions are too close minded and old fashioned, I suggest being a little more open minded. Strategies don't need to be linear, and using other characters other than the typical suggestions or supports other than Earth are perfectly fine. Well, I mean, it's not limited to him. Most people seem to lack creativity. There's pretty much always a way of making a character at least decent, but people like to handwave it in the name of opportunity cost or "oh that wont let me have my solo mode 11 mov haar". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, Soul~! said: Well, I mean, it's not limited to him. Most people seem to lack creativity. There's pretty much always a way of making a character at least decent, but people like to handwave it in the name of opportunity cost or "oh that wont let me have my solo mode 11 mov haar". You don't really respond to the actual argument. Most people in the thread do not "handwave" your suggestions, as far as I can tell. For the sake of a tierlist, they just factor in the opportunity cost necessary to bring out a character's potential and weigh it against the payoff for it. I know that Edward can be quite a terror in the later parts of the game. Really. I just do not think that his performance at that point is as valuable as Nolan's, Volug's or Zihark's in part 1. I also really appreciate the suggestions to improve Sanaki's everything and I will most likely try it out in my current playthrough, but I'm not convinced that this would justify a score >5, especially since she's only around for so long. In my opinion, both investment and payoff should be considered for a tierlist. I've already said it before, I don't consider this to be a guide for newer players, because indeed, most units with a low score are still very much salvageable (or at least usable) without shooting oneself in the knee. I did put some thought into my ratings and I tried to use a consistent and sensible scoring grid. It's honestly a bit disappointing if you brush differing, reasoned opinions off as a 'lack of creativity'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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