What's the deal with Grima?

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 hour ago, Salamud said:

To elaborate, I suspect that the developers were torn between doing a sequel to Marth's games (since they kept the franchise alive after the Tellius Flop) or doing a reboot that would have been set in another Archanea (if in Archanea at all). They ended up going with a compromise where Awakening happens a really long time after Marth's adventures but retcons elements of the setting and introduces more (see Taguel).

Awakening doesn't even seemed to have retconned a lot if at all outright. Things like the Jugdral weapons losing their power and holy blood link for example were brought up before (that specific instance by Kaga himself).

[RJWalker]

No, Awakening retcons a shitload. Valentia is completely screwed up.

The mythology of Archanea/Jugdral is completely incompatible with that of Tellius. There is no getting around that fact. And contrary to your claim that Elibe has no connection, there is actually a much more well detailed (if still incredibly speculative and inconclusive) theory that Elibe and Archanea are linked. There is more evidence to support this than there is for link with Tellius but even that theory has several holes.

The mythology of Archanea is very clear that dragons once ruled and that humans were extremely primitive. The rise of humans did not start after the decline of the dragons due to degeneration. This aspect is incompatible with Tellius. Dragons in Archanea did not transform into humans at all before their degeneration started. They did not even possess this power. They had to seal their powers in stones and this was considered by most dragons to be incredibly demeaning and beneath them. Yet in Tellius, humans and dragon laguz exist. Not only that, dragon laguz, like all other laguz, prefer to be in their humanoid form. This is completely at odds with the dragons of Archanea and creates a timeline error. The decline of dragons started before the rise of humans (whereas humans coexist with dragon laguz in Tellius). There is not explanation for this error. The two worlds are not linked.

The Outrealms are created for the specific purpose of using characters from other worlds without having to give an explanation for their presence. Why people insist on creating a linear timeline is beyond me. It simply does not exist. If it did, IS would certainly make an effort to say so. 

As a side note, Awakening does have plenty of retcons and errors. There are plot holes in support conversations (such as Panne saying she was raised by her mother with the other taguel in one conversation while saying she never knew her mother or other taguel in another). Anything Awakening says about lore has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Awakening doesn't even seemed to have retconned a lot if at all outright. Things like the Jugdral weapons losing their power and holy blood link for example were brought up before (that specific instance by Kaga himself).

Kaga's talked about Awakening? Link please!

 

Since playing Gaiden I've more and more leaned towards the belief that Awakening is some kind of alternate universe counterpart of the early games. Most notably based on the Geography where they clearly did not care at all aside from retaining the vague shapes of the continents. Mila's Temple was apparently built on Wyvern Valley? All those poisonous bogs and mires are now...a giant tree flourishing with life? Sofia castle was...in a volcano? Come on guys we already had a volcano in Gaiden and it was right on the way to Walhart's castle (which seems to be the only location they kept consistent). Additionally the opening text refers to Valencia as being a remote island which coupled with the lower enemy numbers than in most other games, the fact that there's only two kingdoms and that Alm apparently walked under the sea to Doma's Tower like it was the channel tunnel (or was Doma inexplicably hanging out under Rigil castle for unexplained reasons and Celica was warped to him?) all heavily suggest that Valencia isn't even a continent at all but an island more comparable to Britain. Yet obviously Valm is just as large as Ylisse in Awakening because they needed somewhere to shove all their paralogues.

On the Archanea side the most glaring contradiction to previous lore is the mere existence of Nowi. She's a divine dragon right? Tiki was meant to be the last Divine Dragon still capable of transforming and even then there was great risk of madness for her. Yet Nowi just wanders around transforming with no threat of madness. Where are the other Manakete's anyway? Bantu might be around due some text Nowi makes on one of the sparkle tiles but aside from that they seem to be completely extinct. That's a radical population shift when the thriving population vanished and the one that was functionally extinct manages to survive.

Oh and don't get me started on how completely meaningless Priam's claim to be Ike's relative is. If you go back any significant time then any given person that reproduced will be the ancestor of practically everyone. Priam's claim only makes sense if he's a time traveller or if he means it in a more taking up his mantle. Perhaps Stephen Fry can explain it more eloquently than I since I have ranted about this before.

 

All in all just accepting that Ylisse isn't exactly Archanea 1:1 solves an immense amount of problems they created because they simply didn't care about being consistent (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I can respect that they weren't letting previous canon interfere with the vision they had). And the game also conveniently introduced us to evidence to suggest this is the case with the outrealm. Most specifically the Future Past which is directly stated to be a near identical universe to Lucina's only with some minor changes that significantly affect the overall history from that point on (though I suspect they just missed to suggestion that Valencia is smaller than most other Fire Emblem  settings when deciding to include Valm and its army of 1 MILLION soldiers in the game).

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jotari

[Augestein]

3 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

No, Awakening retcons a shitload. Valentia is completely screwed up.

The mythology of Archanea/Jugdral is completely incompatible with that of Tellius. There is no getting around that fact. And contrary to your claim that Elibe has no connection, there is actually a much more well detailed (if still incredibly speculative and inconclusive) theory that Elibe and Archanea are linked. There is more evidence to support this than there is for link with Tellius but even that theory has several holes.

The mythology of Archanea is very clear that dragons once ruled and that humans were extremely primitive. The rise of humans did not start after the decline of the dragons due to degeneration. This aspect is incompatible with Tellius. Dragons in Archanea did not transform into humans at all before their degeneration started. They did not even possess this power. They had to seal their powers in stones and this was considered by most dragons to be incredibly demeaning and beneath them. Yet in Tellius, humans and dragon laguz exist. Not only that, dragon laguz, like all other laguz, prefer to be in their humanoid form. This is completely at odds with the dragons of Archanea and creates a timeline error. The decline of dragons started before the rise of humans (whereas humans coexist with dragon laguz in Tellius). There is not explanation for this error. The two worlds are not linked.

The Outrealms are created for the specific purpose of using characters from other worlds without having to give an explanation for their presence. Why people insist on creating a linear timeline is beyond me. It simply does not exist. If it did, IS would certainly make an effort to say so. 

As a side note, Awakening does have plenty of retcons and errors. There are plot holes in support conversations (such as Panne saying she was raised by her mother with the other taguel in one conversation while saying she never knew her mother or other taguel in another). Anything Awakening says about lore has to be taken with a grain of salt.

There's also the fact that the entire continent was flooded in Tellius except for well... Tellius, and none of the landmasses look anything alike. I just use the Outerrealms as an excuse for why things are out of whack tbh. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Kaga's talked about Awakening? Link please!

 

Since playing Gaiden I've more and more leaned towards the belief that Awakening is some kind of alternate universe counterpart of the early games. Most notably based on the Geography where they clearly did not care at all aside from retaining the vague shapes of the continents. Mila's Temple was apparently built on Wyvern Valley? All those poisonous bogs and mires are now...a giant tree flourishing with life? Sofia castle was...in a volcano? Come on guys we already had a volcano in Gaiden and it was right on the way to Walhart's castle (which seems to be the only location they kept consistent). Additionally the opening text refers to Valencia as being a remote island which coupled with the lower enemy numbers than in most other games, the fact that there's only two kingdoms and that Alm apparently walked under the sea to Doma's Tower like it was the channel tunnel (or was Doma inexplicably hanging out under Rigil castle for unexplained reasons and Celica was warped to him?) all heavily suggest that Valencia isn't even a continent at all but an island more comparable to Britain. Yet obviously Valm is just as large as Ylisse in Awakening because they needed somewhere to shove all their paralogues.

On the Archanea side the most glaring contradiction to previous lore is the mere existence of Nowi. She's a divine dragon right? Tiki was meant to be the last Divine Dragon still capable of transforming and even then there was great risk of madness for her. Yet Nowi just wanders around transforming with no threat of madness. Where are the other Manakete's anyway? Bantu might be around due some text Nowi makes on one of the sparkle tiles but aside from that they seem to be completely extinct. That's a radical population shift when the thriving population vanished and the one that was functionally extinct manages to survive.

Oh and don't get me started on how completely meaningless Priam's claim to be Ike's relative is. If you go back any significant time then any given person that reproduced will be the ancestor of practically everyone. Priam's claim only makes sense if he's a time traveller or if he means it in a more taking up his mantle. Perhaps Stephen Fry can explain it more eloquently than I since I have ranted about this before.

 

All in all just accepting that Ylisse isn't exactly Archanea 1:1 solves an immense amount of problems they created because they simply didn't care about being consistent (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I can respect that they weren't letting previous canon interfere with the vision they had). And the game also conveniently introduced us to evidence to suggest this is the case with the outrealm. Most specifically the Future Past which is directly stated to be a near identical universe to Lucina's only with some minor changes that significantly affect the overall history from that point on (though I suspect they just missed to suggestion that Valencia is smaller than most other Fire Emblem  settings when deciding to include Valm and its army of 1 MILLION soldiers in the game).

Kaga didn't talk about Awakening. The whole "holy weapons will rot away" thing was brought up way back in like 1996 by Kaga, not particularly recently at all- Awakening dug into a pretty obscure aspect for that lore.

 

Notice I haven't really talked about Priam at all, just how the notion of them taking Ike at his word if he just randomly show up is indicative that Archaneans (or Ylisseans perhaps) are insane and gullible if that is the case. Again, i need to emphasize they'd be taking a person at their word for whom they have no proof if he just made his tale on the fucking spot or not. Archanea would practically operate on insane troll logic by that point.

Gaiden I'm holding off on period for now because Echoes seems to be making a pretty specific effort to tie Valentia into Awakening (what with Rigel's flag being a more ancient version of the Valm emblem). They might retcon a few key aspects of Gaiden to mesh with Awakening and/or explain things like the Mila Tree in the ending of the game. Even from the trailers we know they're trying to tie Walhart to Rigel specifically instead of just general Valentia.

Also, Jugdral itself might contradict the idea all humans were primative prior to the dragons' decline; the humans already have a kingdom by the time the dragons start declining, but in Jugdral; a kingdom by Fire Emblem standards is pretty advanced. Archanea, however, wasn't founded until almost a thousand years after the dragons' decline and a few hundred years after the events of Jugdral; this seems to indicate to me that humans were significantly advanced elsewhere, but not in what would eventually become Archanea; hence why Adrah was so easily able to conquer it with the regalia. The whole dragon civilization thing seems pretty specific to Archanea.

 

It's also been brought up elsewhere on the forums Tellius is literally just a slightly altered Jugdral flipped upside down, Phoenicis/Kilvas notwithstanding (in a similar vein as Valm), complete with the desert being in pretty much the same place and the whole tower on an island thing seeming to match up. Not sure how that would fit with everything so I tend not to focus on geography as the first and foremost determinator,but that's still of note. As said elsewhere, it's almost a little too fitting If the Laguz have anything to do with Holy blood that Bird Laguz would be located closest to what would become Sillesse and most of the Pegasus Knights (which in Tellius are associated with Begnion) are essentially in the same spot which became Sillesse if this is the case, which is associated with Pegasus Knights in much the same way as Begnion. Too many coincidences but im still unsure as I haven't played FE5 and Awakening shows geography is malleable anyway

As for the flood, having Hoshido and Nohr destroyed by it would solve a lot of Hoshido/Nohr's problems with Awakening continuity.

 

finalky, as for the Elibe thing... the specific theory Jack Walker is talking about relies on Elibe and Archanea being two different worlds. So, especially if it turns out true and not in spite of it, there wouldn't be a direct historical link between Elibe and Archanea that would be common knowledge of anyone in either continent.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Since playing Gaiden I've more and more leaned towards the belief that Awakening is some kind of alternate universe counterpart of the early games. Most notably based on the Geography where they clearly did not care at all aside from retaining the vague shapes of the continents. Mila's Temple was apparently built on Wyvern Valley? All those poisonous bogs and mires are now...a giant tree flourishing with life? Sofia castle was...in a volcano? Come on guys we already had a volcano in Gaiden and it was right on the way to Walhart's castle (which seems to be the only location they kept consistent). Additionally the opening text refers to Valencia as being a remote island which coupled with the lower enemy numbers than in most other games, the fact that there's only two kingdoms and that Alm apparently walked under the sea to Doma's Tower like it was the channel tunnel (or was Doma inexplicably hanging out under Rigil castle for unexplained reasons and Celica was warped to him?) all heavily suggest that Valencia isn't even a continent at all but an island more comparable to Britain. Yet obviously Valm is just as large as Ylisse in Awakening because they needed somewhere to shove all their paralogues.

 

To be fair, 2000 years is a long time. Many changes things have happened through less. Take the volcano, for example. To give an irl example, over here we have the Paricutín Volcano, which is only around 73 years old. It grew to around 300 meters above the surface in just a few months. It swallowed up two towns in lava/ash during that time. With 2000 years, that's enough time for a volcano to sprout and bury Zofia Castle in lava/ash, and grow to whatever height it is in the game depending on activity time.

Something like the tree is the same. It also helps that its location and growth could have had the help of Mila herself revitelizing the area.

Wyvern Valley and the old location for Mila's Temple are actually not quite the same. In Valentia, the temple has mountains to its west. Wyvern Valley is roughly in the eastern edge of those mountains in Valm, but also a little to the south. So quite close, but not quite the exact same place.

Sure, Valentia may have been remote... in the time of Alm and Celica. But with 2000 years and increased contact with Archanea, that's enough to rise in notoriety. Same way with cross-continental contact here on Earth. And to be fair, we don't quite know the exact size of Archaneia either.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

On the Archanea side the most glaring contradiction to previous lore is the mere existence of Nowi. She's a divine dragon right? Tiki was meant to be the last Divine Dragon still capable of transforming and even then there was great risk of madness for her. Yet Nowi just wanders around transforming with no threat of madness. Where are the other Manakete's anyway? Bantu might be around due some text Nowi makes on one of the sparkle tiles but aside from that they seem to be completely extinct. That's a radical population shift when the thriving population vanished and the one that was functionally extinct manages to survive.

Oh and don't get me started on how completely meaningless Priam's claim to be Ike's relative is. If you go back any significant time then any given person that reproduced will be the ancestor of practically everyone. Priam's claim only makes sense if he's a time traveller or if he means it in a more taking up his mantle. Perhaps Stephen Fry can explain it more eloquently than I since I have ranted about this before.

 

I agree with you on this. More Divide Dragons showing up in the future is really only possible if cross-tribe mating is possible considering things. Then again... does the game really states Nowi is Divine? I tried to search up, finding conversations like this, showing it's a topic that has lasted years with no conclusive answer. And by the way, the madness thing despite having a dragonstone only applied to Tiki, and most likely only when as a child.

Got nothing on this to comment about. Well, theoretically it's posssible to have exclusive ancestry lines if all the generations were composed of single childs. But well, who knows. It's a shaky topic from the start, anyway.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

All in all just accepting that Ylisse isn't exactly Archanea 1:1 solves an immense amount of problems they created because they simply didn't care about being consistent (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I can respect that they weren't letting previous canon interfere with the vision they had). And the game also conveniently introduced us to evidence to suggest this is the case with the outrealm. Most specifically the Future Past which is directly stated to be a near identical universe to Lucina's only with some minor changes that significantly affect the overall history from that point on (though I suspect they just missed to suggestion that Valencia is smaller than most other Fire Emblem  settings when deciding to include Valm and its army of 1 MILLION soldiers in the game).

To be fair, in some cases they did tried. Such as some maps/locations being practically identical, like the Stone Maze in north Valentia/Valm, while using the 2000 year time gap to change things as they saw fit. The 1 Million soldiers thing... well, as mentioned above, we don't quite know the exact size of Valentia/Valm, nor the demographics, really. Even if Valentia really only had few people back then... well, 2000 years. I know it sounds like a weak excuse at this point to say they used a big time gap to get away with things with little direct explanations and lots of implications and inferences... but well, sometimes, it does happen.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 

To be fair, 2000 years is a long time. Many changes things have happened through less. Take the volcano, for example. To give an irl example, over here we have the Paricutín Volcano, which is only around 73 years old. It grew to around 300 meters above the surface in just a few months. It swallowed up two towns in lava/ash during that time. With 2000 years, that's enough time for a volcano to sprout and bury Zofia Castle in lava/ash, and grow to whatever height it is in the game depending on activity time.

Something like the tree is the same. It also helps that its location and growth could have had the help of Mila herself revitelizing the area.

Wyvern Valley and the old location for Mila's Temple are actually not quite the same. In Valentia, the temple has mountains to its west. Wyvern Valley is roughly in the eastern edge of those mountains in Valm, but also a little to the south. So quite close, but not quite the exact same place.

Sure, Valentia may have been remote... in the time of Alm and Celica. But with 2000 years and increased contact with Archanea, that's enough to rise in notoriety. Same way with cross-continental contact here on Earth. And to be fair, we don't quite know the exact size of Archaneia either.

 

I agree with you on this. More Divide Dragons showing up in the future is really only possible if cross-tribe mating is possible considering things. Then again... does the game really states Nowi is Divine? I tried to search up, finding conversations like this, showing it's a topic that has lasted years with no conclusive answer. And by the way, the madness thing despite having a dragonstone only applied to Tiki, and most likely only when as a child.

Got nothing on this to comment about. Well, theoretically it's posssible to have exclusive ancestry lines if all the generations were composed of single childs. But well, who knows. It's a shaky topic from the start, anyway.

To be fair, in some cases they did tried. Such as some maps/locations being practically identical, like the Stone Maze in north Valentia/Valm, while using the 2000 year time gap to change things as they saw fit. The 1 Million soldiers thing... well, as mentioned above, we don't quite know the exact size of Valentia/Valm, nor the demographics, really. Even if Valentia really only had few people back then... well, 2000 years. I know it sounds like a weak excuse at this point to say they used a big time gap to get away with things with little direct explanations and lots of implications and inferences... but well, sometimes, it does happen.

I also fully expect Echoes to shed some light on the Valentia/Valm connection since from the trailer and boxart alone we already have some hints of Rigel in there.

[RJWalker]

Your timeline is not correct. Only the actual battle between Naga and the degerenated Earth Dragons took place around the time of the Miracle of Darna. The actual decline started way before. The Kingdom of Gran, which became Grannvale was formed after the decline of the dragon tribes started.

 

The war of shadows took place in the year Archanea 600. By Kaga's words, the events of FE4 (ie the year Gran 633), took place 1000 years before the war of heroes. The Gran Kingdom was formed in hte year Gran 001. This year lines up to the Archanea calender year approximate of -1000. Which is exactly when the decline of the dragon tribes started. No kingdoms before that. Tellius being in hte past would contradict this.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

21 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Your timeline is not correct. Only the actual battle between Naga and the degerenated Earth Dragons took place around the time of the Miracle of Darna. The actual decline started way before. The Kingdom of Gran, which became Grannvale was formed after the decline of the dragon tribes started.

 

The war of shadows took place in the year Archanea 600. By Kaga's words, the events of FE4 (ie the year Gran 633), took place 1000 years before the war of heroes. The Gran Kingdom was formed in hte year Gran 001. This year lines up to the Archanea calender year approximate of -1000. Which is exactly when the decline of the dragon tribes started. No kingdoms before that. Tellius being in hte past would contradict this.

According to this timeline https://fireemblemwiki.org/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

the decline started 180 years after the Grann Kingdom was formed. In that case, yes, human civilization on a separate continent would predate the fall of the Archanea Dragons and fling the door open for humans and dragons on other continents and more distant times.

 

Also, FE4 starts in the year 760 (this is made significant because Sileph's journey ends up starting in the year 777, a number with much supernatural and lucky connotation) and spans about 20 years, so that number is contradicted by the actual game itself.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 

To be fair, 2000 years is a long time. Many changes things have happened through less. Take the volcano, for example. To give an irl example, over here we have the Paricutín Volcano, which is only around 73 years old. It grew to around 300 meters above the surface in just a few months. It swallowed up two towns in lava/ash during that time. With 2000 years, that's enough time for a volcano to sprout and bury Zofia Castle in lava/ash, and grow to whatever height it is in the game depending on activity time.

Something like the tree is the same. It also helps that its location and growth could have had the help of Mila herself revitelizing the area.

Wyvern Valley and the old location for Mila's Temple are actually not quite the same. In Valentia, the temple has mountains to its west. Wyvern Valley is roughly in the eastern edge of those mountains in Valm, but also a little to the south. So quite close, but not quite the exact same place.

Sure, Valentia may have been remote... in the time of Alm and Celica. But with 2000 years and increased contact with Archanea, that's enough to rise in notoriety. Same way with cross-continental contact here on Earth. And to be fair, we don't quite know the exact size of Archaneia either.

 

I agree with you on this. More Divide Dragons showing up in the future is really only possible if cross-tribe mating is possible considering things. Then again... does the game really states Nowi is Divine? I tried to search up, finding conversations like this, showing it's a topic that has lasted years with no conclusive answer. And by the way, the madness thing despite having a dragonstone only applied to Tiki, and most likely only when as a child.

Got nothing on this to comment about. Well, theoretically it's posssible to have exclusive ancestry lines if all the generations were composed of single childs. But well, who knows. It's a shaky topic from the start, anyway.

To be fair, in some cases they did tried. Such as some maps/locations being practically identical, like the Stone Maze in north Valentia/Valm, while using the 2000 year time gap to change things as they saw fit. The 1 Million soldiers thing... well, as mentioned above, we don't quite know the exact size of Valentia/Valm, nor the demographics, really. Even if Valentia really only had few people back then... well, 2000 years. I know it sounds like a weak excuse at this point to say they used a big time gap to get away with things with little direct explanations and lots of implications and inferences... but well, sometimes, it does happen.

I suppose the geography isn't too crazy when you put those justifications. 2000 years is a pretty short time in terms of geography but volcanoes can pop up in that time and magic does have something to do with it. It does lead me to raise another point that I forgot to mention in that Doma and Mila both seem to be dead in Awakening, with Doma's corpse lying in a completely different location than where he's fought in Gaiden. That either leads to a significant departure in events (one that I don't believe they'll follow through on in Shadows of Valencia) or, some future game or simply untold story where the two manage to escape during the intervening years and have another war.

While we don't have the exact size of Archanea we can actually get a surprisingly good indication that it's geographically pretty big. Namely from the mountains where the Ice Temple is. The narration says there more than five thousand meters high. I'm not a geographical expert but I do know that's higher than any mountain range in Europe suggesting that Archanea is bigger than say France or Germany (by my amature reckoning anyway). Someone with a good knowledge of plate tectonics should be able to work out the approximate size of the continent from that figure and I'd love it if someone did (any takers)?

Nowi's dragon form looking the same as Tiki's and using the same weapon seems like pretty good indication that she's the same type of manakete. I'll read that thread to see what the opinions on the matter are after this comment but I think going by simple visuals there's a pretty strong case here.

Walhart's 1 million soldiers is quite ridiculous. Like it's not impossible (and not really on topic) but such a force is way bigger than typical medieval warfare. To give some points of comparison, the modern day American military has 1.1 million active members of its army in an era where there's a lot more jobs (due to machinery being a thing) and there's well over ten times as many people actually living in the world than the medieval era. Napoleon's assault on Russia, one of the largest invasions ever formed and already well past the medieval era, only had half a million soldiers. I'm not really an expert on war at all but the number is needlessly massive. I think the only place where you might find any comparison is China and it's history of high population and wars (and even doing some light research on that subject, the Mongol Hoard, pretty much the most successful army in history and one that even uses the word that conveys image of overrunning the enemies with an unstoppable number of soldiers...never even made it past 200,000 men. That was 12th/13th century at the height of the medieval era). Again, not really on topic with what we're talking about in the slightest but it does beg disbelief. Pretty sure they just threw the line in to make the conflict feel big even though it had far too few chapters dedicated to it.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jotari

[RJWalker]

2 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

According to this timeline https://fireemblemwiki.org/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

the decline started 180 years after the Grann Kingdom was formed. In that case, yes, human civilization on a separate continent would predate the fall of the Archanea Dragons and fling the door open for humans and dragons on other continents and more distant times.

 

Also, FE4 starts in the year 760 (this is made significant because Sileph's journey ends up starting in the year 777, a number with much supernatural and lucky connotation) and spans about 20 years, so that number is contradicted by the actual game itself.

My number was referring to the start of the Holy War'. We're told is that the Jugdral was around 1000 years before Archanea. Whatever year we use as an equivalent for those 1000 years, nothing significant changes.

180 years is tiny when we're talking in the scale of millennia. The years given for the fall of the dragon tribe is intentionally given as an approximate which lines up with the first established property Kingdom and the start of true human civilisation. The point is, Tellius cannot exist in the past of Archanea/Jugdral given the fact that human civilisation started around the time of the decline of dragons. The history of Tellius has both humans and dragons coexisting for around 1000 years (from the great flood to Ashnard's invasion). Huge kingdoms with rich histories of their own. This is incompatible with Archanea/Jugdral. The dragon laguz freely transformed into human forms and generally stay in their human form. This contradicts the lore of Archanea where dragons did not transform at all and the whole idea of turning into humans, an idea which was demeaning and beneath them, did not come about until after their decline started. They did not even turn into humans before that and the only way they were able to do that was to seal their powers, something which came as natural to the laguz as breathing. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

11 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

180 years is a tiny when we're talking in the scale of millennia. The years given for the fall of the dragon tribe is intentionally given as an approximate which lines up with the first established property Kingdom and the start of true human civilisation. The point is, Tellius cannot exist in the past of Archanea/Jugdral given the fact that human civilisation started around the time of the decline of dragons. The history of Tellius has both humans and dragons coexisting for a 1000 years. Huge kingdoms with rich histories of their own. This is incompatible with Archanea/Jugdral. The dragon laguz freely transformed into human forms and generally stay in their human form. This contradicts the lore of Archanea where dragons did not transform at all and the whole idea of turning into humans, an idea which was demeaning and beneath them, did not come about until after their decline started. They did not even turn into humans before that and the only way they were able to do that was to seal their powers, something which came as natural to the laguz as breathing. 

We don't know for a fact that they couldn't turn into humans before that. What we know for a fact is their human forms became wholly disjointed from their Dragon forms with their Dragon essence being basically contained in the dragonstone (as in Fates). It's possible that was the impetus for that but it's equally possible they simply chose not to enter human form due to a prejudice and the dragonstones would have prevented them from changing freely (hence the repulsion at the notion). It's a plausibility at the very least.

 

The way it's told seems specifically central to Archanea. I'm not arguing intricate human civilization existed in Archanea prior to this; in fact I'm arguing this is not the case. What I am saying is civilizations very well could have existed on other continents due to the Archanea-centric way Gotoh presents everything in FE12 (after all, he doesn't bring up anything from Jugdral that would be pertinent even in the remakes despite there being a few pertinent details to mention). The kingdom 180 years prior to the Dragons doesn't seem to be the start of civilization nor does it even remotely have to be. After all, dragons don't even seem to have existed in Jugdral lore- any Dragon mentioned in Jugdral lore seems to have come from Archanea- so there being a massive dragon civilization in Jugdral seems largely implausible, at least for quite a while before that kingdom was founded. After all, the decline started AFTER the kingdom, so there'd be a shitload of Jugdrali Dragons coexisting with the kingdom for 180 years if this was indeed the case.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Jotari]

This thread has inpired me to make this thread

Related but ultimately a very different topic of debate.

[RJWalker]

59 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

We don't know for a fact that they couldn't turn into humans before that. What we know for a fact is their human forms became wholly disjointed from their Dragon forms with their Dragon essence being basically contained in the dragonstone (as in Fates). It's possible that was the impetus for that but it's equally possible they simply chose not to enter human form due to a prejudice and the dragonstones would have prevented them from changing freely (hence the repulsion at the notion). It's a plausibility at the very least.

No, we do know actually. For Archanea, the dragon form is their true form. It is stated that they had to seal their powers to transform into humans. The whole idea to do so was something the elders of the divine tribe came up with.  For the dragon laguz, given the history of their shared ancestry with Zunanma with humans, their humanoid form is part of what they are.

The various dragon tribes also have no equivalent. For Archanea, the tribes are Fire, Ice, Mage, Wyvern, Earth and Divine. The Fire tribe can be equated to red dragon laguz but none of the others are comparable. White dragons cannot be Ice or Mage Dragons (as Ice dragons are sauropod like in design) or divine dragons (since they seem lower heirrachy to black dragon laguz). The black dragons have even less comparison. They cannot be earth dragons (since they are nothing like earth dragons). 

Also, in Tellius, Dragon Riders ride dragons. This is incompatible with Archanea as the only dragons used as mounts are the remnants of the Wyvern tribes, which only happpened after the fall of the dragon tribes. Dragons as a separate 'intelligent' and 'non-intentelligent' species don't exist in Archanea. All 'non-intelligent' dragons are merely remnants of the dragon tribes which do not exist before the fall of the dragon tribes.

[RedEyedDrake]

Let's be real here. Awakening talks about everything as if it all took place in a single universe purely for the sake of fanservice. Fanservice that falls apart once you realize the sheer nonsense that is the idea of putting all of the settings in a single universe. Which is why no game before Awakening tried to claim that unless it intentionally designed as such from the beginning. And that is something that IS never tried after they moved on from the Kagaverse of Archanea, Valentia and Jugdral.

[Slyfox]

4 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Let's be real here. Awakening talks about everything as if it all took place in a single universe purely for the sake of fanservice. Fanservice that falls apart once you realize the sheer nonsense that is the idea of putting all of the settings in a single universe. Which is why no game before Awakening tried to claim that unless it intentionally designed as such from the beginning. And that is something that IS never tried after they moved on from the Kagaverse of Archanea, Valentia and Jugdral.

 

I'm not so sure. Awakening gives us so many things that are not a part of the same universe.

 

-The Awakening timeline

-The Future timeline

-Morgan

-Yen'fay

-The Radiant Hero, and thus, Priam

-I've heard that the Future Past DLC is slightly different too? I'm finally about to play it, in the next week or two.

-Outrealms

-Some Fates stuff (Hidden Truths and Before Awakening literally cannot happen together in the Fates timeframe, thus, different worlds)

-A bunch of other stuff.

 

Call it poorly written, and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. Regardless, it's very easy to believe that Awakening is from a different timeline than that of the original Marth games and their remakes. Intelligent Systems went out of their way to make sure that retcons aren't unavoidable.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Slyfox said:

 

I'm not so sure. Awakening gives us so many things that are not a part of the same universe.

 

-The Awakening timeline

-The Future timeline

-Morgan

-Yen'fay

-The Radiant Hero, and thus, Priam

-I've heard that the Future Past DLC is slightly different too? I'm finally about to play it, in the next week or two.

-Outrealms

-Some Fates stuff (Hidden Truths and Before Awakening literally cannot happen together in the Fates timeframe, thus, different worlds)

-A bunch of other stuff.

 

Call it poorly written, and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. Regardless, it's very easy to believe that Awakening is from a different timeline than that of the original Marth games and their remakes. Intelligent Systems went out of their way to make sure that retcons aren't unavoidable.

They can easily happen with a bit of time travel. Which is a very minor jump in logic when talking about dimension hopping.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

17 hours ago, Slyfox said:

 

I'm not so sure. Awakening gives us so many things that are not a part of the same universe.

 

-The Awakening timeline

-The Future timeline

-Morgan

-Yen'fay

-The Radiant Hero, and thus, Priam

-I've heard that the Future Past DLC is slightly different too? I'm finally about to play it, in the next week or two.

-Outrealms

-Some Fates stuff (Hidden Truths and Before Awakening literally cannot happen together in the Fates timeframe, thus, different worlds)

-A bunch of other stuff.

 

Call it poorly written, and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. Regardless, it's very easy to believe that Awakening is from a different timeline than that of the original Marth games and their remakes. Intelligent Systems went out of their way to make sure that retcons aren't unavoidable.

Future Past DLC is specifically implied to be Morgan's timeline- Female Morgan even gets the same book that she has a duplicate of from the main game timeline's avatar, which explains a paradox brought up in F!Morgan's supports

 

The big sticking point here is Chrom and Ylisseans acknowledging Ashera as a legitiment goddess, and explicit mentions of Laguz in support conversations. 8-4 didn't do the thing any favors because a lot of specific references like Olivia and Donnel's supports bringing up Leanne and Naesala were just flat out butchered into something else or translated in a dubious way.

Trust me, the Radiant Hero paralogue is far from the only thing saying Tellius shares a world with Archanea outright, and pretty much the only way to argue around all of this is with quite a bit of insane troll logic that would make Owain being in Fates seem reasonable by comparasion (specifically, that the Archaneans started taking a rambling nomadic sellsword at his word when he says he killed a goddess they've never heard of, started to believe in shape shifters that have as much presence as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster in their world (Laguz), started to acknowledge and possibly worship said goddess with no proof he didn't make it up on the spot. Basically, you're suggesting Archaneans are gullible as SHIT, and taking a jump in logic that will propel you over the fucking moon. It's a sticky situation either way, so thank god Elibe and Magvel aren't mentioned by anyone in the base game)

 

and theres a huge misconception here- Awakening isn't putting ALL the game continents together. Elibe and Magvel are very much so their own thing until further notice as Chrom and Co. never mention them anywhere in the base game as far as I know. The only thing they've touched is Tellius, which gets numerous mentions in the base game.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[RJWalker]

Nobody is saying Archaneans are gullible. We're saying the Awakening writers are shit and don't know what they're doing (as evidence by the huge number of retcons and errors such as Valentia's geography). Tellius and Archanea are completely incompatible with each other in terms of lore. They simply cannot exist in the same timeline. I've detailed all the problems putting them in the same timeline creates and all explanations that anyone has ever put forth requires a great deal of willful ignorance. Archanea and Tellius are separate timelines and the only link that can exist is Outrealms because that specifically allows for bending of all rules and ignoring all lore. Archanea and Tellius simply cannot exist in the same timeline as no explanation exists for the plotholes this creates, like the different dragon tribes vs the different dragon laguz types, the fact that archanean dragons could not (I repeat, could not) transform into humans without sealing their powers whereas the laguz can, the fact that for the archanean dragons, the dragon form is their base form whereas the humanoid form is the base for the laguz and they possess the ability to go beastial, the fact that you need to explain how and where the Taguel came from (as they come out of nowhere, establish a huge presence and are wiped out all within the space of 2000 years with the only explanation possible is the outrealms which allow for these sort of shenanigans), the fact that none of the games before Awakening (ie the game that introduced Outrealms) suggest any possible link between Tellius and Archanea.

 

Archanea and Tellius are not connected by a direct timeline.

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Jotari]

I also feel like pointing out that its more than possible that trade exists between the out realms. Chrom and co hare hardly the first people to travel through them. It's a known phenomenon. Not unreasonable at all to believe legends from other worlds thus get spread around. IE Chrom knowing about the story of Ashera and Ike doesn't necessarily mean he believes it took place in his world. The perspective also helps Priam's claim of being a descendant have some actual meaning as Ike's battle with Ashera could potentially be much closer in time to Awakening than one would assume, just happening in another world (for whatever use relative time has when crossing dimensions).

Edited February 4, 2017 by Jotari

[Radiant head]

edit: looks like there's a more fitting thread for this convo

Edited February 4, 2017 by Radiant head

[Slyfox]

On 2/2/2017 at 10:22 PM, Jotari said:

They can easily happen with a bit of time travel. Which is a very minor jump in logic when talking about dimension hopping.

I agree, but until Intelligent Systems give us an example of time travel within one timeline, I find it unlikely.

 

23 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

The big sticking point here is Chrom and Ylisseans acknowledging Ashera as a legitiment goddess, and explicit mentions of Laguz in support conversations. 8-4 didn't do the thing any favors because a lot of specific references like Olivia and Donnel's supports bringing up Leanne and Naesala were just flat out butchered into something else or translated in a dubious way.

Trust me, the Radiant Hero paralogue is far from the only thing saying Tellius shares a world with Archanea outright, and pretty much the only way to argue around all of this is with quite a bit of insane troll logic that would make Owain being in Fates seem reasonable by comparasion (specifically, that the Archaneans started taking a rambling nomadic sellsword at his word when he says he killed a goddess they've never heard of, started to believe in shape shifters that have as much presence as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster in their world (Laguz), started to acknowledge and possibly worship said goddess with no proof he didn't make it up on the spot. Basically, you're suggesting Archaneans are gullible as SHIT, and taking a jump in logic that will propel you over the fucking moon. It's a sticky situation either way, so thank god Elibe and Magvel aren't mentioned by anyone in the base game)

 

and theres a huge misconception here- Awakening isn't putting ALL the game continents together. Elibe and Magvel are very much so their own thing until further notice as Chrom and Co. never mention them anywhere in the base game as far as I know. The only thing they've touched is Tellius, which gets numerous mentions in the base game.

For paragraph one, regarding Olivia and Donnel, isn't it normal for songs to have a different take on events, for the sake of poetry and such? Not to mention, it seems like it would be normal for accounts of various events to take a life of their own.

Paragraph two, I was perhaps not clear enough. Chrom mentioned in paralogue 23 that Priam was from another world (which I assume to be Tellius, a different timeline), or a least that one of Priam's ancestors was. Unless the japanese script is different, I would think that Archanea and Tellius do not exist in the same timeline/universe/world.

And finally, paragraph three. About the supposed misconception, was anyone here arguing that everything was mashed up into the world of Awakening? As many of us have mentioned, the Outrealms basically allow for interaction between all those worlds and timelines (Archanea, Tellius, Elibe, Magvel, Fates). So those continents/worlds actually can stay separate.