Class Favourite 14: Trainee

[bethany81707]

Not all soldiers are born ready for battle. Sometimes, you've got to whip them into shape with experience yourself! Trainees are typically villagers or kids, but Genealogy's take was 'princess who never actually fought before'- which, to be honest, is a more accurate depiction of the time period than other games having princesses that were among the best units in the game. Trainees tend to be rather weak in their base class, but growths, extra level ups and extra promotion gains tend to patch this if you're willing to put in the effort.

 

Well, it looks like this one will be the final Class Favourite. I might let this settle after two days or so, and then make a thread highlighting some of the results. Still laughing at how long it took for Chrom to get a vote.

[Just call me AL]

Raquesis counts as a trainee? News to me.

Anyways, Mozu. Even if only for being fun to use.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Wait, why is Laquesis one here? And if she is on here, should Leif be on here as well?

[bethany81707]

1 minute ago, 1japanfan said:

Wait, why is Laquesis one here? And if she is on here, should Leif be on here as well?

...For some reason, I like to isolate the Lords. Dunno why.

A similar instance happened when Kana appeared with the dragons, but not Corrin.

[Eulogy87]

all the Donnel love because most people who play FE now, joined when Awakening came out </3

Edit: hes my most hated one ironically enough, trying to get him a level in that map was annoying.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Eulogy87

[NinjaMonkey]

Donnel.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I meant to hit Lachesis, but hit Ewan on accident. Whoops.

[Slumber]

Lachesis by default. All of the others are awful.

Mozu is alright, but the rest suuuuuuck.

[LucarioGamer812]

Amelia, she is the 3rd best lance user in all of FE in my opinion, only behind Nephenee *who is a god* and Cordelia *who is up higher due to Galeforce, Sol, and her great strength and skill*

[immatx]

On 2/5/2017 at 11:44 AM, LucarioGamer812 said:

Amelia, she is the 3rd best lance user in all of FE in my opinion, only behind Nephenee *who is a god* and Cordelia *who is up higher due to Galeforce, Sol, and her great strength and skill*

I'd have to agree. My Amelia maxed 4 stats and when I gave her the boots she easily carried me through the rest of the game after promoting her to general. A lot of people complain about her defense when promoted to general, but mine was only a couple of points off max, and that didn't matter much as she hardly ever got hit.

[Just call me AL]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:44 PM, LucarioGamer812 said:

Amelia, she is the 3rd best lance user in all of FE in my opinion, only behind Nephenee *who is a god* and Cordelia *who is up higher due to Galeforce, Sol, and her great strength and skill*

 

9 hours ago, immatx said:

I'd have to agree. My Amelia maxed 4 stats and when I gave her the boots she easily carried me through the rest of the game after promoting her to general. A lot of people complain about her defense when promoted to general, but mine was only a couple of points off max, and that didn't matter much as she hardly ever got hit.

Except it's quite a lot of effort to even make sure that she gains great stats in the first place. As it is, she's widely considered to be the worst unit in FE8.

 

There's nothing about her being a favorite. But saying that she's a good unit is a factually incorrect statement.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Just call me AL

[immatx]

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

Except it's quite a lot of effort to even make sure that she gains great stats in the first place. As it is, she's widely considered to be the worst unit in FE8.

 

There's nothing about her being a favorite. But saying that she's a good unit is a factually incorrect statement.

It's not factually incorrect, as she was amazing for me. I didn't reset chapters cuz of level ups either. I checked and she maxed strength, spd, skill, luck, and had 27 defense, 58 hp, and 20 res

if you don't consider that good idk what ur comparing her too

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, immatx said:

It's not factually incorrect, as she was amazing for me. I didn't reset chapters cuz of level ups either. I checked and she maxed strength, spd, skill, luck, and had 27 defense, 58 hp, and 20 res

if you don't consider that good idk what ur comparing her too

How much of that was with statboosters? Anyways, there's a REASON we tend to use averages when comparing units.

[Just call me AL]

10 hours ago, immatx said:

It's not factually incorrect, as she was amazing for me. I didn't reset chapters cuz of level ups either. I checked and she maxed strength, spd, skill, luck, and had 27 defense, 58 hp, and 20 res

if you don't consider that good idk what ur comparing her too

Maybe a unit that doesn't require strenuous effort in order to become stronger? Maybe a unit that doesn't take EXP from other units? Like Seth, who doesn't require any effort or EXP to be strong in the first place and can actually be called FE's best lance user, for example? I don't deny that Amelia can become a strong unit when she's trained up, but that's just it right there. If she is a truly good unit, then why does the player have to train her up in order for her to become VIABLE, let alone strong? As someone else said on this board, good stats only matter when they're needed most, and Amelia doesn't even join during such a moment, nor does she gain such stars quickly enough; a fact exacerbated by Amelia's own growths, which are some of the worst in the game.

[immatx]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

How much of that was with statboosters? Anyways, there's a REASON we tend to use averages when comparing units.

I only put the boots on her, all the other stat boosters went to my other units. 

5 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Maybe a unit that doesn't require strenuous effort in order to become stronger? Maybe a unit that doesn't take EXP from other units? Like Seth, who doesn't require any effort or EXP to be strong in the first place and can actually be called FE's best lance user, for example? I don't deny that Amelia can become a strong unit when she's trained up, but that's just it right there. If she is a truly good unit, then why does the player have to train her up in order for her to become VIABLE, let alone strong? As someone else said on this board, good stats only matter when they're needed most, and Amelia doesn't even join during such a moment, nor does she gain such stars quickly enough; a fact exacerbated by Amelia's own growths, which are some of the worst in the game.

Idk maybe I just got lucky. But she was my best unit through the entire second half of the game. I just leveled her up quickly when I first got her and she ended up passing all my other units after only a couple of chapters. FE usually has strong characters that turn up late, like Est or Nino, that are underleveled and hard to train up because of it, but if you do then u reap the rewards. I see Amelia like that, even if she isn't that OP

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, immatx said:

I only put the boots on her, all the other stat boosters went to my other units. 

Idk maybe I just got lucky. But she was my best unit through the entire second half of the game. I just leveled her up quickly when I first got her and she ended up passing all my other units after only a couple of chapters. FE usually has strong characters that turn up late, like Est or Nino, that are underleveled and hard to train up because of it, but if you do then u reap the rewards. I see Amelia like that, even if she isn't that OP

Why do I get the feeling I'm being lied to...? These are her averages, for reference:

https://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/characters/average-stats/amelia/knight/general/

Aside from Speed and possibly Luck, she doesn't even cap anything (though she does come within a few points of capping Skill). Not that I'd ever go Knight > General with her, but still.

Perhaps, but that ain't something I can count on to happen every time I use her (hence why averages are used in comparisons). Also, for all the trouble they are to catch up, most characters like Nino fail to outclass their peers by a significant enough margin to justify the hassle - it's a case of too much input for not enough output.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[immatx]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Why do I get the feeling I'm being lied to...? These are her averages, for reference:

https://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/characters/average-stats/amelia/knight/general/

Aside from Speed and possibly Luck, she doesn't even cap anything (though she does come within a few points of capping Skill). Not that I'd ever go Knight > General with her, but still.

Perhaps, but that ain't something I can count on to happen every time I use her (hence why averages are used in comparisons). Also, for all the trouble they are to catch up, most characters like Nino fail to outclass their peers by a significant enough margin to justify the hassle - it's a case of too much input for not enough output.

Oh wow, I had no idea she usually ended up that much worse. Here's mine to prove that it actually happened. 

Spoiler

Had some trouble getting the picture to show up, so clicking on this link should take u there  

https://goo.gl/photos/sFjByXziGi1U4Gac6

But nothing's handed to you on a silver platter. No matter what unit it is, you have to put in the work before they become strong enough, Amelia just takes a little more than most, and honestly it doesn't take too long if you can get her a kill on almost every turn. 

[LucarioGamer812]

23 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Maybe a unit that doesn't require strenuous effort in order to become stronger? Maybe a unit that doesn't take EXP from other units? Like Seth, who doesn't require any effort or EXP to be strong in the first place and can actually be called FE's best lance user, for example? I don't deny that Amelia can become a strong unit when she's trained up, but that's just it right there. If she is a truly good unit, then why does the player have to train her up in order for her to become VIABLE, let alone strong? As someone else said on this board, good stats only matter when they're needed most, and Amelia doesn't even join during such a moment, nor does she gain such stars quickly enough; a fact exacerbated by Amelia's own growths, which are some of the worst in the game.

She's a trainee unit, yes at the start she is way inferior to Seth, but that's the point of having trainee units/villager/est units. They're units that are up to the player to use. No-one is saying you have to use them, but if you want to put in the effort training them up, then you could have an amazing unit later. It's all up to the player. I personally like Amelia because she's a trainee unit like that. But everyone does have their own opinion. Best lance user in the series is opinionated too. While I don't deny Seth is an amazing lance unit, best is all up to the person. I like Nephenee, Cordelia, and Amelia more due to how potent they've performed for me or how amazing they are from what I've seen (since PoR and RD are expensive)

[Just call me AL]

4 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

She's a trainee unit, yes at the start she is way inferior to Seth, but that's the point of having trainee units/villager/est units. They're units that are up to the player to use. No-one is saying you have to use them, but if you want to put in the effort training them up, then you could have an amazing unit later. It's all up to the player. I personally like Amelia because she's a trainee unit like that. But everyone does have their own opinion. Best lance user in the series is opinionated too. While I don't deny Seth is an amazing lance unit, best is all up to the person. I like Nephenee, Cordelia, and Amelia more due to how potent they've performed for me or how amazing they are from what I've seen (since PoR and RD are expensive)

And liking a character is perfectly fine. What I'm saying here, though, is not to say that particular characters are good units when facts clearly show otherwise.

 

15 hours ago, immatx said:

Oh wow, I had no idea she usually ended up that much worse. Here's mine to prove that it actually happened. 

  Hide contents

Had some trouble getting the picture to show up, so clicking on this link should take u there  

https://goo.gl/photos/sFjByXziGi1U4Gac6

But nothing's handed to you on a silver platter. No matter what unit it is, you have to put in the work before they become strong enough, Amelia just takes a little more than most, and honestly it doesn't take too long if you can get her a kill on almost every turn. 

It does if you're going at a brisk pace. Which is how we judge units when going over the numbers.

[immatx]

6 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

And liking a character is perfectly fine. What I'm saying here, though, is not to say that particular characters are good units when facts clearly show otherwise.

 

It does if you're going at a brisk pace. Which is how we judge units when going over the numbers.

Well actually that's incorrect. If we've both only had good Amelia's that means she's a good unit. Just because you got unlucky or are too lazy to raise her doesn't make her bad. Everything's based on growth rates anyway. It's possible for Ike to. Be terrible or for Marcus to become strong. That's the thing about Fire Emblem. Everyone's characters can be different and people use different strategies, making each unit have better uses than others for each person. For me Amelia is one the best units I've ever used. Maybe for you she was the worst. But that doesn't make her bad. One unit isn't going to beat the game for you, you just have to find the units to fill the roles on your team, and maybe Amelia fits one, maybe she doesn't. 

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, immatx said:

Well actually that's incorrect. If we've both only had good Amelia's that means she's a good unit. Just because you got unlucky or are too lazy to raise her doesn't make her bad. Everything's based on growth rates anyway. It's possible for Ike to. Be terrible or for Marcus to become strong. That's the thing about Fire Emblem. Everyone's characters can be different and people use different strategies, making each unit have better uses than others for each person. For me Amelia is one the best units I've ever used. Maybe for you she was the worst. But that doesn't make her bad. One unit isn't going to beat the game for you, you just have to find the units to fill the roles on your team, and maybe Amelia fits one, maybe she doesn't. 

Granted, you have a point about everything being random in FE, but those first couple of sentences you posted just don't make sense. If they did, you could say there's no such thing as a bad unit. And if I tried to insist the likes of Lyre, Wendy, etc. were good units, I'd be laughed off the forum in the blink of an eye.

[Just call me AL]

22 hours ago, immatx said:

Well actually that's incorrect. If we've both only had good Amelia's that means she's a good unit. Just because you got unlucky or are too lazy to raise her doesn't make her bad. Everything's based on growth rates anyway. It's possible for Ike to. Be terrible or for Marcus to become strong. That's the thing about Fire Emblem. Everyone's characters can be different and people use different strategies, making each unit have better uses than others for each person. For me Amelia is one the best units I've ever used. Maybe for you she was the worst. But that doesn't make her bad. One unit isn't going to beat the game for you, you just have to find the units to fill the roles on your team, and maybe Amelia fits one, maybe she doesn't. 

dondon151 once wrote an interesting statement about Nino in regards to shed some light on why she is considered to be a bad unit by an experienced player.

Quote

the experiences are largely not valuable because they've been influenced by a large amount of bias.

suppose that nino has good stats once she's been grinded up. (she does.) many casual players fawn over this detail without stopping to consider why she gets special treatment. her low joining level this late in the game is, to them, adequate rationale for the expectation that she'll turn out good after adequately leveled up.

but that's obviously not true. if you put in that same amount of effort into just about any other unpromoted unit, you get the same results. you'll also get those results earlier. imagine if, rather than spending 100 turns grinding nino in chapter 28x, you spent 100 turns grinding erk in chapter 14 instead. erk is much better (relative to the enemies), for much longer (relative to nino). why does a subset of casual players insist otherwise? they do not seem to understand this argument.

they also possess a blind spot that has to do with the perceived importance of stats. FE7 has weak enemies on the whole, so there is very little value to having stats that exceed a certain threshold. any statistical advantage that nino has over pent is irrelevant 99% of the time - so why does a subset of casual players insist otherwise?

i briefly outlined a couple of very simple arguments above that expose the logical gaps in the assertion that nino is good in almost any context, efficient or casual. i will even go a step farther and contend that these arguments cannot be demonstrated false (well, they are falsifiable, but there is no such evidence).

Much of this can easily be said for Amelia too. Just replace FE7 with FE8, Erk with Franz or Gilliam, Pent with Seth or Duessel, Ch 28x with Ch 9, Ch10, or Ch 11, and so on.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Just call me AL

[immatx]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Granted, you have a point about everything being random in FE, but those first couple of sentences you posted just don't make sense. If they did, you could say there's no such thing as a bad unit. And if I tried to insist the likes of Lyre, Wendy, etc. were good units, I'd be laughed off the forum in the blink of an eye.

Well of course there's bad units. But Amelia comes early enough, around chapter 11 iirc, that her low level doesn't make a huge difference if you don't wait to level her. You have to weigh the time they enter the party with the starting/ending stats as well as what other units are available. Of course, it's different for each player what they find more or less valuable, but for me, I've never used Gilliam, Franz, or Seth, Amelia as a general fills a big role and fits in great with my strategy, making her a good unit. If I was aiming for more of a cleave team then she'd probably be crap. I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't determine if a character is good or not just be level ups, because personal strategy and roles play a big part. 

 

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

dondon151 once wrote an interesting statement about Nino in regards to shed some light on why she is considered to be a bad unit by an experienced player.

Much of this can easily be said for Amelia too. Just replace FE7 with FE8, Erk with Franz or Gilliam, Pent with Seth or Duessel, Ch 28x with Ch 9, Ch10, or Ch 11, and so on.

I'm actually not a fan of Nino for that exact reason, and Erk is my favorite FE character (not best for clarity, I just like him). I honestly don't think she's worth leveling since she's comes in so late. She's also made irrelevant as the only point in raising her would be for the final chapter, but you get Arthos who is far stronger for the final battle. But I think getting Amelia about 10 chapters in is early enough where she can still be leveled fairly easily, and without leaching too much exp.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, immatx said:

Well of course there's bad units. But Amelia comes early enough, around chapter 11 iirc, that her low level doesn't make a huge difference if you don't wait to level her. You have to weigh the time they enter the party with the starting/ending stats as well as what other units are available. Of course, it's different for each player what they find more or less valuable, but for me, I've never used Gilliam, Franz, or Seth, Amelia as a general fills a big role and fits in great with my strategy, making her a good unit. If I was aiming for more of a cleave team then she'd probably be crap. I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't determine if a character is good or not just be level ups, because personal strategy and roles play a big part. 

 

I'm actually not a fan of Nino for that exact reason, and Erk is my favorite FE character (not best for clarity, I just like him). I honestly don't think she's worth leveling since she's comes in so late. She's also made irrelevant as the only point in raising her would be for the final chapter, but you get Arthos who is far stronger for the final battle. But I think getting Amelia about 10 chapters in is early enough where she can still be leveled fairly easily, and without leaching too much exp.

Given how short Sacred Stones is, coming around chapter 10 is more like midgame. Also, as mentioned earlier, her growths aren't that great. In addition, as Al said, if you're playing through the game as a brisk pace, she'll have a hard time proving useful (and it should be noted such runs tend to not use the tower). That said, when I use her, she always goes Cavalier > Paladin.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[bethany81707]

I've used her twice- once on my first Ephraim run, and once on my All-Girls run (where she was not only useful as an allowed character in a challenge where those are rare, but by promoting to Great Knight, she was my only axe-user period). As a Paladin in Ephraim, she worked wonders. As a Great Knight in All-Girls, less so.

However, when not grinding (which I've only done on the All-Girls to get Amelia out of Recruit as quickly as possible so I had something I'd be kinda comfortable having on the front lines), I recognise she's not the best- in the Ephraim run, she was so close to level 10 Recruit after Chapter 10 that I just fed her some skirmish experience so she wasn't a liability in Phantom Ship.

I've used Ross, who worked wonders in my first Eirika run supported with Lute, once, and Ewan zero times. Probably should try to rectify that. (Haven't used Knoll, either).