How Interconnected Should The Multiple Continuities Be?

[Jotari]

So this thread over in the Awakening Section very quickly spiraled into a debate about how the relation (or lack thereof) of the continents in Fire Emblem. And it's kind of inspired me to pose the more philosophical question of "How Connected Should They Be?" Or basically, what would you prefer. Do you want Fire Emblem to be a large scope stories with every installment filling out the lore of a shared universe? Do you enjoy it being sort of vaguely defined a bit like Zelda? Or do you want things to be completely separate with the exception of some minor fan service (or perhaps do you oppose even that level of inclusion)? So far the series has kind of done all three with the first five being the linked overarching mythology, the next five being completely distinct, and then Awakening throwing in the more vague connection one. Speaking of which Awakening's probably a good point to focus on. How much do you really think it benefitted by being set on Archanea (and Valencia)? Anyway discuss. This is something I have no idea what the communities general opinion is.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jotari

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So this thread over in the Awakening Section very quickly spiraled into a debate about how the relation (or lack thereof) of the continents in Fire Emblem. And it's kind of inspired me to pose the more philosophical question of "How Connected Should They Be?" Or basically, what would you prefer. Do you want Fire Emblem to be a large scope stories with every installment filling out the lore of a shared universe? Do you enjoy it being sort of vaguely defined a bit like Zelda? Or do you want things to be completely separate with the exception of some minor fan service (or perhaps do you oppose even that level of inclusion)? Awakening's probably a good point to focus on. How much do you really think it benefitted by being set on Archanea (and Valencia)? Anyway discuss. This is something I have no idea what the communities general opinion is.

Vague definition is usually the safest bet to go on. It tells people "hey, this (usually) factors into the story" without running a particularly high risk of stumbling over your own canon. Of course that risk is still there but you leave a lot of outs. Zelda ironically failed this with HH and ended up completely contradicting the lore of about 3 games, but that's another topic.

 

the main issue here is that if Tellius were unconnected to Archanea the whole of Archanea and especially the royal family of the exalt would be frankly gullible and uneducated idiots who take a random sellsword at his word when he says he killed a goddess they've never heard of; starting to take him seriously, venerate him as "The Radiant Hero", and acknowledge this goddess with nothing but his swordsmanship and boyfriend to back up his claims. a very unfortunate implication, I've heard more believable stories told to me as a child to make me behave. They give less stock to Hoshido and Nohr, games with a basically confirmed connection through Rhajat stating she and Corrin would "reincarnate" and she'd "recognize you in our life and never let you go" in their Japanese SSM support (Tharja and Robin)

 

the GBA games are never brought up directly in the main story, so it's still plausible Elibe and Magvel are unrelated to the rest of the series going by base game dialogue

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Vague definition is usually the safest bet to go on. It tells people "hey, this (usually) factors into the story" without running a particularly high risk of stumbling over your own canon. Of course that risk is still there but you leave a lot of outs. Zelda ironically failed this with HH and ended up completely contradicting the lore of about 3 games, but that's another topic.

 

the main issue here is that if Tellius were unconnected to Archanea the whole of Archanea and especially the royal family of the exalt would be frankly gullible and uneducated idiots who take a random sellsword at his word when he says he killed a goddess they've never heard of; starting to take him seriously, venerate him as "The Radiant Hero", and acknowledge this goddess with nothing but his swordsmanship and boyfriend to back up his claims. a very unfortunate implication, I've heard more believable stories told to me as a child to make me behave.

It's pretty hazy logic to begin with. It'd be like trying to recruit someone into your army in the modern day because they're telling everyone they're the decendant of Hercules.

[Gima]

Fates, at least, takes place in a different universe, as DLC basically confirms. Elibe and Magvel could take place in a different universe, too. Technically the only canon merging that has actually happened is the Archanea/Jugdral universe and Tellius one.

[Jotari]

Just now, Gima said:

Fates, at least, takes place in a different universe, as DLC basically confirms. Elibe and Magvel could take place in a different universe, too. Technically the only canon merging that has actually happened is the Archanea/Jugdral universe and Tellius one.

I don't really want to focus too much on how connected they actually are with this thread. It's more about how connected you want them to be.

[Gima]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't really want to focus too much on how connected they actually are with this thread. It's more about how connected you want them to be.

True.

 

Personal opinion: I honestly have no idea as to why Archanea/Jugdral/Valencia and Tellius were merged completely, and dislike the problems it creates even on surface value. But I do really, really, like the idea of the Outrealms and a greater multiverse, even if the universes themselves should be left alone.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's pretty hazy logic to begin with. It'd be like trying to recruit someone into your army in the modern day because they're telling everyone they're the decendant of Hercules.

It doesn't even have a damn thing to do with Priam. Notice I'm referring pretty much SOLELY to their taking it seriously in the first place, not Priam at all. Any reference to Priam himself never left my mouth.

 

also, as for Fates, the DLC seems to have been mistranslated, as the Japanese base game all but confirms it IS the same world as Awakening since Corrin is STATED to reincarnate into Robin

[Gima]

2 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

It doesn't even have a damn thing to do with Priam. Notice I'm referring pretty much SOLELY to their taking it seriously in the first place, not Priam at all. Any reference to Priam himself never left my mouth.

 

also, as for Fates, the DLC seems to have been mistranslated, as the Japanese base game all but confirms it IS the same world as Awakening since Corrin is STATED to reincarnate into Robin

Nope, you don't understand. It was not mistranslated, reincarnation is apparently multiversal.

[Slumber]

I'm fine with the idea of the Tellius games, Akeneia games, and Awakening being in the same world. It makes some sense(It's a bit fucked that Laguz apparently went extinct beyond a few cases thousands of years down the line, but what can ya do?), and can flesh out those worlds a bit more.

Everything else, I think, should be their own worlds.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Slumber

[RJWalker]

They're clearly not linked. Anyone with even basic knowledge of the mythology and lore of the various worlds would know that they contradict each other too much to be directly linked. The Outrealms exist and they're stupid enough as it is. It should remain at that.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

They're clearly not linked. Anyone with even basic knowledge of the mythology and lore of the various worlds would know that they contradict each other too much to be directly linked. The Outrealms exist and they're stupid enough as it is. It should remain at that.

That's not the purpose of this thread. It's to ask how linked you want them to be. Do you like the outrealm idea or would you prefer them being like the older games?

[RJWalker]

I prefer them to not be linked at all but the Outrealms already exist and it should remain that way at the very least.

[NekoKnight]

The reason why Zelda somewhat works as being interconnected is they share a lot of lore. Link, Zelda and Ganon (although this may be more a case of him never dying) are destined to be reincarnated, over and over again into new eras. The Triforce and the origin of the world is also a consistant element. The Zelda timeline is hazy but there is implied continuity. This is different than Fire Emblem than has a new take on the Fire Emblem, dragons and even deities between different games. 

Fire Emblem should only have continuity between settings that have a confirmed connection, ie shared lore. Less connections between games gives them more creative freedom when choosing their lore.

[Just call me AL]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's not the purpose of this thread. It's to ask how linked you want them to be. Do you like the outrealm idea or would you prefer them being like the older games?

He's kinda right, though. The only reason why Priam exists at all in FE13, story-wise, is because Ike managed to find an Outrealm Gate, and made his way to Archanea from there. Trying to fit the continuities of older FE games into newer ones would only make sense if it does make sense to do so. Case in point: FE4 and the Archanea FEs taking place before FE13. Most of the overreaching mythology makes its way to other continents through Outrealms. If any link between has to be made between FE games in explicitly different worlds, I would rather it be through that.

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

I'm fine with the idea of the Tellius games, Akeneia games, and Awakening being in the same world. It makes some sense(It's a bit fucked that Laguz apparently went extinct beyond a few cases thousands of years down the line, but what can ya do?), and can flesh out those worlds a bit more.

Not really. Tellius, for starters was explicitly mentioned to be the last continent in its world. That alone makes it impossible for Tellius and Archanea to be in the same world. Same can be said for trying to place Elibe and Archanea in the same world on account of the Ending Winter making Manaketes weaker instead of feral. 

[Slumber]

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

He's kinda right, though. The only reason why Priam exists at all in FE13, story-wise, is because Ike managed to find an Outrealm Gate, and made his way to Archanea from there. Trying to fit the continuities of older FE games into newer ones would only make sense if it does make sense to do so. Case in point: FE4 and the Archanea FEs taking place before FE13. Most of the overreaching mythology makes its way to other continents through Outrealms. If any link between has to be made between FE games in explicitly different worlds, I would rather it be through that.

Not really. Tellius, for starters was explicitly mentioned to be the last continent in its world. That alone makes it impossible for Tellius and Archanea to be in the same world. Same can be said for trying to place Elibe and Archanea in the same world on account of the Ending Winter making Manaketes weaker instead of feral. 

Tellius was the last continent in its world because Ashunera flooded the world, leaving only Tellius. However, that was (I think)50,000 years before the Tellius games, and by the time they beat Ashera, the world is presumably returned, and in Ike's ending, he leaves Tellius.

In Awakening, Priam being the descendant of the Hero of Blue Flame is something that's recognized as being significant, Laguz are a known quantity(Though considered a legend), and there are songs about Leanne and Naesala. With Ragnell being cracked and falling apart(While the 1000 year old Falchion is in pristine condition), there's the impression, that it's the same world as Tellius, but was a long, long, loooooong time ago.

You could argue that Ike or one of his descendants found an outrealm gate, but some stuff really doesn't sound like anything Ike would do. Would Ike really come up with a song about Leanne and Naesala? Even if somebody heard him talk about it, and made a song out of it, him just telling the story would be really out of character.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Slumber

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Tellius was the last continent in its world because Ashunera flooded the world, leaving only Tellius. However, that was (I think)50,000 years before the Tellius games, and by the time they beat Ashera, the world is presumably returned, and in Ike's ending, he leaves Tellius.

In Awakening, Priam being the descendant of the Hero of Blue Flame is something that's recognized as being significant, Laguz are a known quantity(Though considered a legend), and there are songs about Leanne and Naesala. With Ragnell being cracked and falling apart(While the 1000 year old Falchion is in pristine condition), there's the impression, that it's the same world as Tellius,, but Tellius was a long, long, loooooong time ago.

You could argue that Ike or one of his descendants found an outrealm gate, but some stuff really doesn't sound like anything Ike would do. Would Ike really come up with a song about Leanne and Naesala? Even if somebody heard him talk about it, and made a song out of it, him just telling the story would be really out of character.

No, it wasn't that much. Just around 800 years. Regarding Ike leaving Tellius... well, as much Tellius is stated to be the only land left, there's the fact we don't know what lies east of Daein and Begnion. We only know of Hatari, but surely it can't be everything. So wether Ike left for Hatari and beyond, or some other lands have resurfaced again... who knows...

The thing about Falchion is that it was "reforged", so to speak, when the First Exalt renewed the blood bond with Narga, so it can't be compared with Ragnell when it comes to the effects of the passage of time on them.

Personally, I would think Ike can't be the only one who ever traveled between worlds. The possibility is open for, anyone really, to have also crossed and maybe that person was responsible for stuff like the song. Who knows.

[Slumber]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

No, it wasn't that much. Just around 800 years. Regarding Ike leaving Tellius... well, as much Tellius is stated to be the only land left, there's the fact we don't know what lies east of Daein and Begnion. We only know of Hatari, but surely it can't be everything. So wether Ike left for Hatari and beyond, or some other lands have resurfaced again... who knows...

The thing about Falchion is that it was "reforged", so to speak, when the First Exalt renewed the blood bond with Narga, so it can't be compared with Ragnell when it comes to the effects of the passage of time on them.

Personally, I would think Ike can't be the only one who ever traveled between worlds. The possibility is open for, anyone really, to have also crossed and maybe that person was responsible for stuff like the song. Who knows.

That's entirely speculation.

What we do know:

1.) Ike, at the end of RD, leaves the known lands in the world that Tellius exists in. Whether this is a new continent or somewhere beyond the borders of Daein/Begnion(I find this a bit unlikely, since people likely know of those lands, it's just never relevant to the story of PoR/RD), he goes somewhere that puts him so far away from the events of the Tellius games that nobody EVER hears from him again.

2.) People in Awakening know of Laguz(Or the legends of Laguz), and the song of Naesala and Leanne is so well known that it's the song that every bard/dancer aspires to perform.

3.) Priam exists, and has a very, very old Ragnell.

What we can only speculate on:

1.) That Ike traveled through the Outrealm Gates.

2.) That other people from Tellius also traveled through the Outrealm Gates to make up for the things people know about that don't really make sense to attribute to Ike.

I hate using Occam's Razor, but the simplest explanation with no speculation is that Tellius existed in the same world as the Akeneia games and Awakening.

[NekoKnight]

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I hate using Occam's Razor, but the simplest explanation with no speculation is that Tellius existed in the same world as the Akeneia games and Awakening.

Wouldn't Occam's Razor tell you that those Tellius things are just easter eggs and have no real bearing on the lore of Awakening? Who even talks about laguz and heron songs? Is this something from DLC?

[Slumber]

30 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Wouldn't Occam's Razor tell you that those Tellius things are just easter eggs and have no real bearing on the lore of Awakening? Who even talks about laguz and heron songs? Is this something from DLC?

Support conversations. I think it's one of Panne's that mentions Laguz, and Olivia/Donnel's supports are about the song of Naesala/Leanne.

Easter eggs typically have no bearing on the plot, and are just things the developers throw in as tiny, quick things that the players have to catch onto. They're not entire characters(Priam) and character development conversations.

Plus, Awakening brought this on itself by trying to tie all of the games together in some way.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Slumber

[Party Moth]

Given what Awakening has done to the Kagaverse lore, what Fates has done to Awakening's lore, and my general reaction to multiverse shenanigans being bile rising in my throat, I'd rather they just leave the old games out of their crazy timey wimey escapades. Newer installments already have trouble enough justifying their own world building and lore without trying to take on the rules of other settings as well.

I like Tellius. I like Archanea. Should they be interconnected? Only if you want to justify Fomortiis, Gaiden's magic system, and how Anankos fits into it all.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Wouldn't Occam's Razor tell you that those Tellius things are just easter eggs and have no real bearing on the lore of Awakening? Who even talks about laguz and heron songs? Is this something from DLC?

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No, it wasn't that much. Just around 800 years. Regarding Ike leaving Tellius... well, as much Tellius is stated to be the only land left, there's the fact we don't know what lies east of Daein and Begnion. We only know of Hatari, but surely it can't be everything. So wether Ike left for Hatari and beyond, or some other lands have resurfaced again... who knows...

The thing about Falchion is that it was "reforged", so to speak, when the First Exalt renewed the blood bond with Narga, so it can't be compared with Ragnell when it comes to the effects of the passage of time on them.

Personally, I would think Ike can't be the only one who ever traveled between worlds. The possibility is open for, anyone really, to have also crossed and maybe that person was responsible for stuff like the song. Who knows.

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Support conversations. I think it's one of Panne's that mentions Laguz, and Olivia/Donnel's supports are about the song of Naesala/Leanne.

Easter eggs typically have no bearing on the plot, and are just things the developers throw in as tiny, quick things that the players have to catch onto. They're not entire characters(Priam) and character development conversations.

Plus, Awakening brought this on itself by trying to tie all of the games together in some way.

Seriously guys can you just stop? I've stated multiple times now that this thread is not about arguing what is and isn't connected. It's your opinion on how connected things Should or Shouldn't Be. This is about people's opinions, not the facts. I made this thread specifically because the discussion about what is connected was happening somewhere else. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Jotari

[Thane]

Honestly it has always bugged me a little that the Fire Emblem worlds are so separate from each other, rather than trying to build a more cohesive story and lore to work with. They can still be on the same planet or what not, just really far away from each other both in terms of time and space. I think there's more you can do that way, unless you for some reason want a world where completely different laws of nature apply or you suddenly want to make it more sci-fi or what have you, but the Fire Emblem worlds so far have all been fairly similar in terms of the historical setting, I believe.

[Tolvir]

I would rather they all be connected. I really hope that is the case too. Final Fantasy always bugged me with this, nothing continues off of each other. So many cool settings and worlds thrown away after one use. Final Fantasy VII had a great world, and while it had some spin offs that attempted to further the lore, they fell flat. It would of been better if it got a sequel rather than 50 spin offs that sucked. Final Fantasy 6 had a great setting too.

Final Fantasy 4 and 10 are the only ones that really got sequels. Technically so did 13, but I tend to stay as far away from that as possible.

I think having a connected world ultimately allows for better story telling. They dont all have to be direct sequels. They can take place on different continents, kingdoms, and even other worlds. I just think an interconnected world can achieve better story telling than the one and done style that Fire emblem, Final Fantasy, and other JRPGs are known for. Just look at Elder Scrolls for example. All their games take place at different times and different locations, but they are all the same world, and even continent. It allows for each of the games to have some sort of impact of the overall world and further the story. Mass Effect is doing similar with Andromeda. Completely new cast of characters and even a new galaxy, but it is placed on the timeline next to Mass Effect 2, and is involved in the same universe. This allows the game's sequels to connect more to the original trilogy and further the overall story of Mass Effect.

I do believe to a certain point it is connected though. Its already known that Alm and Marth's story took place on the same world, and very likely Tellius. They just need to go further with it and make it a little more than just fan service.

 

[ping]

The way FE worlds are connected adds little more to the games than fanservice, to be honest. It allows for some more or less justified appearances of popular characters from older games for no real reason other than the players squeeing over them. The Awakening trio might technically add to Anankos' backstory, but a) this isn't even touched in the main stories and b) was it really necessary that Anankos' insanity insurance came from another universe? I don't know enough about Gaiden to make a definite statement about Camus and the Whitewings appearing there, but afaik, they aren't really integral to the story either.

So yeah, I'd prefer either a simply shared setting (I actually like that Marth is a figure of legend in Awakening) or no connection at all. I'm very sceptical about all the multiverse stuff.

44 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I would rather they all be connected. I really hope that is the case too. Final Fantasy always bugged me with this, nothing continues off of each other. So many cool settings and worlds thrown away after one use. Final Fantasy VII had a great world, and while it had some spin offs that attempted to further the lore, they fell flat. It would of been better if it got a sequel rather than 50 spin offs that sucked. Final Fantasy 6 had a great setting too.

I kinda see it the opposite way. I don't mind series in any media with a single time line at all, but I really appreciate that the Final Fantasy series builds a new, independent setting for each game. IMO, FF7 doesn't need any added content because the story told in the game is complete, so to speak, although parts of it are a bit too well hidden. :D But even if I can see the appeal of more background about Zach or Sephiroth before he went bonkers, we know enough about them to understand their impact on the story. We are told and shown that Zach is a somewhat flirty and (based on Cloud's impression of him) maybe a bit troll-ish dude, but still loyal and selfless enough to help Cloud even though he's taking a big risk helping him. It's not a complete picture of him, but his role in Cloud's backstory isn't really impaired by the gaps.

And while sequels aren't automatically a bad thing - FF7's ending was slightly ambiguous since we didn't know if Holy would get rid of the human menace while it's at it (we don't see any humans after its effect), so the expanded universe does cheapen it a bit and so would any kind of sequel. The way I see it, that's always a potential problem if a story that was originally intended to stand on its own receives a sequel - the ends that the original left loose deliberately might have to be tied, and I would say that can potentially hurt the original story retroactively.

[Just call me AL]

17 hours ago, Slumber said:

I hate using Occam's Razor, but the simplest explanation with no speculation is that Tellius existed in the same world as the Akeneia games and Awakening.

Here's an excerpt of what Chrom and Robin say about Ike when talking about whether or not a descendant of his is actually real.

Quote

Robin: I stand corrected. It seems the rumors of a hidden village were true...
Chrom: Indeed. But could a descendant of the Radiant Hero truly reside here? I still have my doubts.
Robin: What all do you know about this Radiant Hero, anyway?
Chrom: Only what the legends tell—that he's an unparalleled warrior from another world. They say he felled thousands with a divine blade blessed by Ashera herself.
Robin: Interesting. Then if his descendant exists and possesses even a tenth of his skill...
Chrom: Exactly. Strength like that could be of great use to us.

That's an outright admission, by the game itself no less, that Tellius and Archanea are in different worlds. And if the game itself is telling you this, then what proof do you even have that can support the contrary?

 

@Jotari: I'm sorry for engaging in the sort of discussion of whether each FE is connected or not. I felt this was something that needed getting out of the way over here.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Just call me AL