Sword Pegasi or Lance Pegasi?

[Jotari]

Pegasus units have kind of had an affinity with both swords and lances throughout the series. Probably more so with the later than the former, regardless, which one do you think fits the class better?

[Darrman]

Considering peg knights have used lances in every single game in the series, lances are their thing. The matter of what falcoknights can use, however, is one I find interesting. I prefer sword/lance to lance/staff myself, considering their magic isn't amazing post-promotion and swords don't weigh them down so much in the games where that's relevant. FE4 has sword/lance/staff falcos, clearly the best option.

[Magical Glace]

I normally near completely switch them to swords in the GBA games since they don't have the CON for anything else.

Besides that, I really don't mind it going either way.

[Ycine]

I voted Swords because I love the idea for Pegasus Unit to use Swords as their basic weapon. 

But to think of it, that's really not practical for a flying unit to use such a weapon.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Ycine
Bad grammar

[Dark Holy Elf]

17 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

I normally near completely switch them to swords in the GBA games since they don't have the CON for anything else.

Unless you can get them up to a C rank, this isn't really true. Only once they get access to the Killing Edge do swords offer a meaningful advantage over lances even to someone with 5-6 Con (until then, the iron sword is similar to the slim lance, and the steel sword to the iron lance). Granted, if you do switch them over near-exclusively you're more likely to get there (although you still want to pull out javelins often, of course).

I voted lances because using a sword from a flying mount seems rather difficult to me, although it is rather cool aesthetically and we're talking about pretty white horses with giant wings that's what really matters.

[RedEyedDrake]

Lances because you're supposed to have Pegasus units deal the killing blow on enemies after another unit weakened them so as to not have this low DEF class take a (physical) hit. In other words, you are supposed to have a unit with this class 'dart in' on an enemy. Lances are inherently better suited for this sort of movement when compared to swords.

Edited February 25, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[NekoKnight]

Lances seem more practical to me but if you want to do 3 weapon types for Pegasus/Wyvern/Griffon, then swords seem to fit them best.

[Sunwoo]

I think falcoknights should go back to gaining lances upon promotion and ditch the staves entirely.

[NinjaMonkey]

15 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I think falcoknights should go back to gaining lances upon promotion and ditch the staves entirely.

They gained swords on promotion, not lances. Lances are what they start with.

Edited February 25, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Sunwoo]

10 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

They gained swords on promotion, not lances. Lances are what they start with.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Whatever. I'm tired and not thinking straight. I think people know what I mean.

[NekoKnight]

Unpopular opinion here but I like them using staves. We already have Paladins for a mounted lance/sword combo, and a healer that has 8 movement and isn't affected by terrain provides a lot of utility (although I think they need better Mag growth).

[Vaximillian]

Lance + sword by default, and + staves on promotion. The Jugdrali way.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Extrasolar]

I never understood the "Falcon Knights with staves" thing, to be honest. Isn't healing magic meant to be divine magic, coming from on-high and invoked by priests, clerics and bishops.

Pegasus Knights have never been connected to any deity, so how the heck are they using divine magic all of a sudden upon promotion? They don't exactly become women of the cloth as soon as their mount gets a horn or horn-shaped armor.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[RedEyedDrake]

@Extrasolar:

Considering that some Staves are capable of doing things that are more thematically appropriate for Thieves than Curates/Clerics? No, there's more to that than "coming from on high". And some settings (Kagaverse comes to mind first and foremost) present things in a way that brings up doubt on whether there is an "on high" at all. And this despite the original Gaiden's portrayal of Duma and Mila or even Awakening's post apotheosis Nagi.

Edited February 26, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Extrasolar]

7 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@Extrasolar:

Considering that some Staves are capable of doing things that are more thematically appropriate for Thieves than Curates/Clerics? No, there's more to that than "coming from on high". And some settings (Kagaverse comes to mind first and foremost) present things in a way that brings up doubt on whether there is an "on high" at all. And this despite the original Gaiden's portrayal of Duma and Mila or even Awakening's post apotheosis Nagi.

 

 

Not all magic from good-aligned gods needs to be buff magic or healing magic. Have you played tabletop games? A huge portion of the magic from good-aligned gods cripples the enemy. Anything to make the job easier.

And no, light magic and healing magic is pretty much confirmed to be from the gods. There's pretty much always been confirmation that gods in FE exist, even if we never see them. Ashera from POR and RD is the most direct case, since light and healing magic come from her.

Mila is where Gaiden's White Magic comes from. Bishops and clerics are pretty much 100% god-worshippers, even if we never see the gods in question.

EDIT: Not to mention, why would they be called "clerics" and most importantly "bishops" if there were no gods. Bishops were always religiously-aligned people, even in the real world.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[NekoKnight]

37 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I never understood the "Falcon Knights with staves" thing, to be honest. Isn't healing magic meant to be divine magic, coming from on-high and invoked by priests, clerics and bishops.

Pegasus Knights have never been connected to any deity, so how the heck are they using divine magic all of a sudden upon promotion? They don't exactly become women of the cloth as soon as their mount gets a horn or horn-shaped armor.

A lot of classes uses staves and they are not specifically aligned with religion. Heck, Druids use dark tomes and staves.

[Extrasolar]

Just now, NekoKnight said:

A lot of classes uses staves and they are not specifically aligned with religion. Heck, Druids use dark tomes and staves.

But druids and shamans at least have the excuse of being previously magical. I made the comparison with mages, who can already channel the spiritual energies of the elements. It's not too far a leap to say that they'd be able to learn to invoke divine energy.

Pegasus Knights don't have that same excuse.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Extra:

By contrast, I can say that Archanean Staves, just like their Tomes, where something that Gotoh taught humanity how to create and use. So no actual divine association there, meaning that this isn't a constant thing across the franchise. And I didn't say that there aren't any deities. I said that, at least in the Kagaverse, it is doubtful if there is an "on high" (at least in the stereotypical sense). As in, those deities aren't exactly THAT sort of "Fantasy Setting Deities (tm)"

Additionally, I'm aware of the association between Celica's starting party of spellcasters and Mila. But since Valentia is in the same universe as Archanea and Jugdral I'm inclined to take such associations with a grain of salt, especially when one takes into account that this subject might get fleshed out more soon. Not to mention that if Mila taught her worshippers White Magic then where does her worshippers' ability to use Black Magic come from? Duma? Doubtful. Also her? Then it can simply be said that Duma and Mila both taught their worshippers all of the magic that each factions knows, meaning that this subject is no longer simply about Staves and thus no longer holds water as to the Valentian Staves' specific association with deities.

As for the subject of those names, let us reverse that, shall we? Does bishops existing in real life outright confirm the existence of deities of any sort? Same principle. They are called 'bishops' because that is the position that they hold in their religion's hierarchy (at least as far as class naming goes because let's be real here, there is no way that this is factually correct for every single Bishop). And, unless blatantly confirmed otherwise by the events of a given continent's storyline, there is no reason to assume anything beyond that.

Edited February 26, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Extrasolar]

1 minute ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@Extra:

By contrast, I can say that Archanean Staves, just like their Tomes, where something that Gotoh taught humanity how to create and use. So no actual divine association there, meaning that this isn't a constant thing across the franchise. And I didn't say that there aren't any deities. I said that, at least in the Kagaverse, it is doubtful if there is an "on high" (at least in the stereotypical sense). As in, those deities aren't exactly THAT sort of "Fantasy Setting Deities (tm)"

Additionally, I'm aware of the association between Celica's starting party of spellcasters and Mila. But since Valentia is in the same universe as Archanea and Jugdral I'm inclined to take such associations with a grain of salt, especially when one takes into account that this subject might get fleshed out more soon. Not to mention that if Mila taught her worshippers White Magic then where does her worshippers' ability to use Black Magic come from? Duma? Doubtful. Also her? Then it can simply be said that Duma and Mila both taught their worshippers all of the magic that each factions knows, meaning that this subject is no longer simply about Staves and thus no longer holds water as to the Valentian Staves' specific association with deities.

As for the subject of those names, let us reverse that, shall we? Does bishops existing in real life outright confirm the existence of deities of any sort? Same principle. They are called 'bishops' because that is the position that they hold in their religion's hierarchy. And, unless blatantly confirmed otherwise by the events of a given continent's storyline, there is no reason to assume anything beyond that.

 

I'd argue against the "no actual divine association." Naga has gone on record claiming that she's not a god (much later, in Awakening), but considering the sheer amount of power she holds, as well as her intervening to assist humanity against other dragons, I think it's pretty safe to say that she's a god in everything but name. Not to mention, she's called a divine dragon. If that don't point to divinity, I don't know what else will. Not to mention, the Japanese name of the divine dragons (of which Gotoh is a member) is goddess dragon.

Black Magic is simply the elemental/anima magic of the other games, but with the caster using his or her own life force instead of a tome to focus the powers. Presumably, they channel the elemental spirits as normal mages do, but just without the tome part. Not to mention, there can easily be multiple gods and multiple sources of divine magic. That's the case in tabletop, and that seems to be the case in FE.

And no, bishops existing doesn't confirm the existence of dieties...but the games themselves have confirmed the existence of dieties in FE. A huge difference there. The people in FE don't have any question that their gods exist, as the bishops have communicated with them, and in some cases, have met them with them (again, Ashera in Tellius). I mean, even Jugdral has Holsety, a divine dragon, and a few other gods mentioned in supplementary material. The Crusaders are also looked upon as gods now, especially Blaggi, whom Claud and other Blaggi priests invoke when casting their magic.

[RedEyedDrake]

...So what if the Divine Dragons are called that? There could be any number of reasons as to why that sort of dragon is called that, both in universe and out of universe. In fact, Bantu refers to that sort of dragon as 'the Naga clan' upon his recruitment in FE11, meaning that the Divine Dragons themselves might not call themselves that (or didn't but do so now because the humans aren't aware of dragonkind's own names for the various types). And just because an entity is worshiped doesn't mean that it is actually divine in nature. Forseti was a Divine Dragon. In other words, a mortal being at the end of the day. Which is what all Archanean dragons are, despite their ability to "cheat the system" to some degree. Additionally, so what if the Twelve Crusaders have been deified? That doesn't mean that they were anything other than mortal or that they didn't die as such. What, is there some actual indication of an outright apotheosis for any of them? And Naga's power? What of it? That universe had functional Staves long before that, even while Naga was dead and/or had no actual ties of power to this universe.

Also, stereotypical tabletop tropes don't mean much of anything. Each FE universe is its own setting. Some things can work in the stereotypical way and some can be completely flipped on their heads, as with any specific setting. And that's just it. The Kagaverse's rules, Elibe's rules, Magvel's rules, Tellius' rules and Fates' rules don't mean anything in regards to each other. The situation with Ashera is exclusive to Tellius and doesn't mean anything for the non-Tellius games. Additionally, the existence of "elemental spirits" in some settings doesn't mean that there are any such entities in settings where they were never properly brought up.

And if the Valentian Staves need a divine source of power to function then why would they use some source other than the deity that the Staff's user worships? Also, so what if that is how the Valentian Black Magic functions? That isn't any sort of evidence to indicate that the Valentian Staves have some special association with the divine.

So no. There is still reason to believe that Staves and the clergy are a case of "guilt by association" for any setting that doesn't explicitly indicate otherwise. Meaning that for those settings Staff based magic doesn't outright have to be divine magic in the tabletop sense.

Having said all that, I do personally prefer Falcon Knights gaining access to another weapon from a different point of the weapon triangle upon promotion to them gaining access to Staves. Also, I think I'll leave the subject of the Staves' power at that, for the sake of the topic.

Edited February 26, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[BANRYU]

PKs are fine either way IMO. In terms of balance, I think it depends on what you're doing with everyone else... I like Falcos using Staves thematically, but honestly I think either Lance/Sword or Lance/Staff or even Sword/Staff is fine. 

[Extrasolar]

2 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

...So what if the Divine Dragons are called that? There could be any number of reasons as to why that sort of dragon is called that, both in universe and out of universe. In fact, Bantu refers to that sort of dragon as 'the Naga clan' upon his recruitment in FE11, meaning that the Divine Dragons themselves might not call themselves that (or didn't but do so now because the humans aren't aware of dragonkind's own names for the various types). And just because an entity is worshiped doesn't mean that it is actually divine in nature. Forseti was a Divine Dragon. In other words, a mortal being at the end of the day. Which is what all Archanean dragons are, despite their ability to "cheat the system" to some degree. Additionally, so what if the Twelve Crusaders have been deified? That doesn't mean that they were anything other than mortal or that they didn't die as such. What, is there some actual indication of an outright apotheosis for any of them? And Naga's power? What of it? That universe had functional Staves long before that, even while Naga was dead and/or had no actual ties of power to this universe.

Also, stereotypical tabletop tropes don't mean much of anything. Each FE universe is its own setting. Some things can work in the stereotypical way and some can be completely flipped on their heads, as with any specific setting. And that's just it. The Kagaverse's rules, Elibe's rules, Magvel's rules, Tellius' rules and Fates' rules don't mean anything in regards to each other. The situation with Ashera is exclusive to Tellius and doesn't mean anything for the non-Tellius games. Additionally, the existence of "elemental spirits" in some settings doesn't mean that there are any such entities in settings where they were never properly brought up.

And if the Valentian Staves need a divine source of power to function then why would they use some source other than the deity that the Staff's user worships? Also, so what if that is how the Valentian Black Magic functions? That isn't any sort of evidence to indicate that the Valentian Staves have some special association with the divine.

So no. There is still reason to believe that Staves and the clergy are a case of "guilt by association" for any setting that doesn't explicitly indicate otherwise. Meaning that for those settings Staff based magic doesn't outright have to be divine magic in the tabletop sense.

Having said all that, I do personally prefer Falcon Knights gaining access to another weapon from a different point of the weapon triangle upon promotion to them gaining access to Staves. Also, I think I'll leave the subject of the Staves' power at that, for the sake of the topic.

 

 

 

 

Can you quote me when you reply? I like getting notifications when in a discussion, and the only reason I saw this was because I happened to check back in on the thread.

So, 1st point. Divine dragons aren't called that for no reason. Naga has shown several times that she's capable of granting some of her immense power to others; she's done it several times (heck, she did it twice just with the Falchion, and there's the Book of Naga to top it off), not  to mention Holsety with the tome of the same name, and Salamander (who was a Fire Dragon) with Valflame. Contrary to popular belief, gods don't have to be immortal to be considered gods; in our own cosmology, the Asgardian Norse gods could be killed just as mortals could, and had to eat magical apples just to stay young. Doesn't mean they weren't all powerful beings who were invoked by mortals who wished to be granted some of their power. In this case, "gods" are immensely powerful beings that may grant part of their power to other, much less powerful worshippers. It's been that way in the original fantasy systems, and in our own mythology.

Now, the dragons had been ruling Archanea for thousands of years before the beginning of Shadow Dragon, so priests could have been invoking Naga for who knows how long. Not to mention, Mila and Duma make it clear that other gods exist in the world aside from Naga, and in Jugdral supplementary material there are other gods mentioned. I remember there being references to a sky god whose name escapes me, but is widely worshipped on Jugdral. That could be what priests are invoking when drawing upon the power of light and healing magic.

Divine magic is 100% said to be drawn from the gods. One conversation in The Sacred Stones had Knoll and Natasha (I believe) saying that healing/light magic is explicitly faith based, while dark magic instead is based on knowledge of mysterious forces. Micaiah is the only character in-series who can use healing powers and light magic without a divine connection, and it's remarked upon as unusual in RD (and we later find out that she is technically descended from a godlike being, if not one that was made that way later).

Elemental spirits are implied to be present in all games, even if they aren't specifically mentioned. Though the FE games take place in different worlds, they hold a lot of similarities - Manaketes, the anima magic triangle, dark and light magic, etc. Gaiden changes this up the most, and their magic is still the same, but casted in a different way.

It's safe to say that FE was inspired by tabletop, specifically Dungeons & Dragons. Literally every role-playing setting, to some extent, was inspired by D&D. FE's classes? Mage, fighter, cleric...where do you think those came from to begin with? Now, I'm not saying FE is a carbon copy of any setting from Dungeons & Dragons, but there are influences, and it's inarguable.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[NekoKnight]

7 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

But druids and shamans at least have the excuse of being previously magical. I made the comparison with mages, who can already channel the spiritual energies of the elements. It's not too far a leap to say that they'd be able to learn to invoke divine energy.

Pegasus Knights don't have that same excuse.

Druids and shamans also practice the dark arts, dangerous magic that is often considered evil by those who use divine magic. If staves were truly exclusive to religious types, this would be a pretty serious contradiction, no?  As far as staves being a completely different type of equipment than what Pegasus Knights use, a lot of classes gain a brand new weapon proficiency. How does a Mercenary!Bow Knight suddenly acquire the skill of archery? How does a Dark Mage!Dark Knight suddenly know how to ride a horse and swing a sword properly? The implication is that they train, and nothing suggests that people can't be trained to use staves.

[Extrasolar]

21 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Druids and shamans also practice the dark arts, dangerous magic that is often considered evil by those who use divine magic. If staves were truly exclusive to religious types, this would be a pretty serious contradiction, no?  As far as staves being a completely different type of equipment than what Pegasus Knights use, a lot of classes gain a brand new weapon proficiency. How does a Mercenary!Bow Knight suddenly acquire the skill of archery? How does a Dark Mage!Dark Knight suddenly know how to ride a horse and swing a sword properly? The implication is that they train, and nothing suggests that people can't be trained to use staves.

I'm not saying that staves should be exclusive to religious types, simply that stave magic is divine in origin. Sages and shamans can learn to invoke divine energy, and imo that makes sense, considering they already know how to invoke elemental spirits (in the mages' case), and mysterious, dark forces from somewhere (in the shamans' case). Pegasus knights...ride a flying horse and hit things with spears or swords. How in the world do they learn this magic all of a sudden?

I've always seen learning magic as a much more difficult thing; you can train yourself to use a sword if you're used to wielding lances. While the motions may be different, at the end, it's a physical weapon, as opposed to learning the proper motions and words and channeling in order to use magic.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I'm not saying that staves should be exclusive to religious types, simply that stave magic is divine in origin. Sages and shamans can learn to invoke divine energy, and imo that makes sense, considering they already know how to invoke elemental spirits (in the mages' case), and mysterious, dark forces from somewhere (in the shamans' case). Pegasus knights...ride a flying horse and hit things with spears or swords. How in the world do they learn this magic all of a sudden?

I've always seen learning magic as a much more difficult thing; you can train yourself to use a sword if you're used to wielding lances. While the motions may be different, at the end, it's a physical weapon, as opposed to learning the proper motions and words and channeling in order to use magic.

It's  magic. You really can't say with any degree of accuracy how easy or hard it is to learn compared to weapons. The art is entirely fictional.