Creating a Camus

[Augestein]

Spoiler

On 2/28/2017 at 3:43 AM, Thane said:

You do understand I just think the same thing about what you're doing, right? In my eyes you're the one who's being stubborn, and in your eyes I assume the same holds true for me. Believe it or not, all I wanted was to discuss your opinion, but you get incredibly defensive and start talking about me cooling my jets and the like. We started by talking about whether or not Xander stood up to Garon; the whole "Xander sucks" thing came later, and I don't even remember who brought it up or why, but I doubt it was intentional. 

What our argument boils down to is that we've got two very, very different viewpoints on the matter, and no matter how hard we try, we won't convince each other otherwise. I think it's best that we stop discussing this here, because try as I might I simply cannot understand your point of view, and the more you write the more difficulty I have understanding what you're even trying to say.

 

Yes. That's all I wanted to do was discuss. That's why I'm at a loss. I'm not being defensive, but it's hard not to when I'm accused of trolling. Hence my "cool your jets." I was under the impression that you were getting frustrated which is why you were having a more difficult time understanding.

It's clear there's way too much dissonance in the conversation to even really continue though.

[Original Alear]

On 3/2/2017 at 9:36 PM, Jotari said:

You probably shouldn't take me at my word. Half the time I'm spouting nonsense :p But seriously I live in China at the moment and they have a culture built about maintaining face. Of course in the west having a respectable position in society is important in the west but in China it's taken to a crazy degree where every single social interaction has dozens of rules about how one should behave and act in order to maintain face. Parents also have a lot more sway over who their children are and aren't allowed to marry. I assume a lot of similar concepts still maintain themselves in Japan too.

Hehe. I would have assumed that relatively speaking, japanese put a higher premium than the west on honor too. My "take your word for it" was probably aimed at the extent of seeing the west as not something people are concerned about. I'd like to imagine it's otherwise, at least. For me to really just point out a couple examples was a bit trite - I take your general assessment as reasonably accurate.

Also, I forgot to say, but I completely ignored the part in the script about Zelgius being rejected by his family. I didn't realize til now that Zelgius had a lot of experiences actually being rejected because of being branded, as opposed to just being worried about it because he knew Daiens tend to hate laguz.

[Dayni]

One thing I'm somewhat surprised nobody mentioned was Yen'Fay.

Much as a Yen'Fay joins, the one that is interacted with in the main story never does, and the one who does only is alive because of... reasons. I'm mostly just bringing this up because I wonder what people's thoughts are on his fitting the archetype or not. I assume not exactly considered great or anything, what with the obvious issues.

[NekoKnight]

3 hours ago, Dayni said:

One thing I'm somewhat surprised nobody mentioned was Yen'Fay.

Much as a Yen'Fay joins, the one that is interacted with in the main story never does, and the one who does only is alive because of... reasons. I'm mostly just bringing this up because I wonder what people's thoughts are on his fitting the archetype or not. I assume not exactly considered great or anything, what with the obvious issues.

I don't think he counts because he's not siding with the villains because of his own principles, he's doing it to protect his sister. He's a Mustafa (or some earlier character), a good person forced to serve evil to protect something they care about.

[JJ48]

It sounds like some Camuses try to justify their actions by saying, "Yes, it's evil, but maybe I can still change things for the better!"  So ideally, why not make this true, in some fashion?  Have a Camus who is a trusted advisor to the main antagonist, and has some real influence with him as a moderating factor.  This could also be combined with the Camus viewing the antagonist's death as potentially worse than whatever small cruelties he's doing in life (this would work best with an antagonist who's not over-the-top, destroy-all-life evil...at least, not openly).

 

An example plot could be as follows:

After the death of the Last Emperor (who had no heir), the Kingdom of Aggressoria was plunged into a hundred year civil war as many factions rose up supporting one baron or another.  While the nobles focused on squabbling, brigands roamed the lands carving small empires for themselves.  The peasants who did not fall in battle and who were not slain by outlaws numbered few, and they lived in constant dread.  Entire generations rose who had never known peace.

Eventually, there arose a powerful warlord, Lady Antagonista, and her faithful retainer, Carchetype.  Her shrewd diplomacy managed to unite many factions behind her banner, and she boldly led them to sweep away all resistance.  Ruthless, she was, but her worst excesses were somewhat lessened by the intervention of honorable Carchetype.  Peace had finally returned to Aggressoria.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late!), the main narrative would start a decade later, with Antagonista deciding to invade a neighboring kingdom.  When the heroes counter and end up facing Carchetype, he recognizes that Antagonista may be going a bit too far abroad, but insists that overthrowing her would be even worse!  The factions that fought each other have united behind her, but if she were to die they would quickly fall to slaughtering one another again.  Carchetype is doing what he can to moderate her actions, but he will remain loyal, as she is the only thing preventing Aggressoria from plunging back into civil war, and that must be prevented at all costs.

[NekoKnight]

8 hours ago, JJ48 said:

After the death of the Last Emperor (who had no heir), the Kingdom of Aggressoria was plunged into a hundred year civil war as many factions rose up supporting one baron or another.  While the nobles focused on squabbling, brigands roamed the lands carving small empires for themselves.  The peasants who did not fall in battle and who were not slain by outlaws numbered few, and they lived in constant dread.  Entire generations rose who had never known peace.

Eventually, there arose a powerful warlord, Lady Antagonista, and her faithful retainer, Carchetype.  Her shrewd diplomacy managed to unite many factions behind her banner, and she boldly led them to sweep away all resistance.  Ruthless, she was, but her worst excesses were somewhat lessened by the intervention of honorable Carchetype.  Peace had finally returned to Aggressoria.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late!), the main narrative would start a decade later, with Antagonista deciding to invade a neighboring kingdom.  When the heroes counter and end up facing Carchetype, he recognizes that Antagonista may be going a bit too far abroad, but insists that overthrowing her would be even worse!  The factions that fought each other have united behind her, but if she were to die they would quickly fall to slaughtering one another again.  Carchetype is doing what he can to moderate her actions, but he will remain loyal, as she is the only thing preventing Aggressoria from plunging back into civil war, and that must be prevented at all costs.

I vote JJ48 to be in charge of all future naming decisions. I shall name my firstborn Carchetype in his honor.

That sounds like a great story prompt. It would be an interesting conflict between the heroes who value an immediate peace and independent kingdoms vs the antagonists Lady Antagonista, long may she reign who are trying to establish a longer lasting peace through reunification of the empire. And on that trail of thought, maybe they could even do a route split where you can choose to oppose Carchetype and fight for independence or support Carchetype, dispose of Lady Antagonista and become a benevolent emperor.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

It sounds like some Camuses try to justify their actions by saying, "Yes, it's evil, but maybe I can still change things for the better!"  So ideally, why not make this true, in some fashion?  Have a Camus who is a trusted advisor to the main antagonist, and has some real influence with him as a moderating factor.  This could also be combined with the Camus viewing the antagonist's death as potentially worse than whatever small cruelties he's doing in life (this would work best with an antagonist who's not over-the-top, destroy-all-life evil...at least, not openly).

 

An example plot could be as follows:

After the death of the Last Emperor (who had no heir), the Kingdom of Aggressoria was plunged into a hundred year civil war as many factions rose up supporting one baron or another.  While the nobles focused on squabbling, brigands roamed the lands carving small empires for themselves.  The peasants who did not fall in battle and who were not slain by outlaws numbered few, and they lived in constant dread.  Entire generations rose who had never known peace.

Eventually, there arose a powerful warlord, Lady Antagonista, and her faithful retainer, Carchetype.  Her shrewd diplomacy managed to unite many factions behind her banner, and she boldly led them to sweep away all resistance.  Ruthless, she was, but her worst excesses were somewhat lessened by the intervention of honorable Carchetype.  Peace had finally returned to Aggressoria.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late!), the main narrative would start a decade later, with Antagonista deciding to invade a neighboring kingdom.  When the heroes counter and end up facing Carchetype, he recognizes that Antagonista may be going a bit too far abroad, but insists that overthrowing her would be even worse!  The factions that fought each other have united behind her, but if she were to die they would quickly fall to slaughtering one another again.  Carchetype is doing what he can to moderate her actions, but he will remain loyal, as she is the only thing preventing Aggressoria from plunging back into civil war, and that must be prevented at all costs.

Hmm. You can repel an invasion without killing the invader though.

[JJ48]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Hmm. You can repel an invasion without killing the invader though.

Ah, you're right!  Better scrap the whole story seed!

[blah the Prussian]

6 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Ah, you're right!  Better scrap the whole story seed!

Don't know if sarcasm or not, but if not that's absurd. You can easily come up with a justification for invading. Maybe the people are crying out for blood after some atrocities.

[Augestein]

9 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Don't know if sarcasm or not, but if not that's absurd. You can easily come up with a justification for invading. Maybe the people are crying out for blood after some atrocities.

Which adds more gray into the mix. Do you give into your people despite going against your morals? Or do you do what you feel is a better idea in the long run.? 

[JJ48]

9 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Don't know if sarcasm or not, but if not that's absurd. You can easily come up with a justification for invading. Maybe the people are crying out for blood after some atrocities.

I was kidding, because I kind of figured Jotari was somewhat joking, as well. 

The whole point was to just suggest a storyline framework which could set up a believable Camus; not to flesh out the entire plot of the (hypothetical) game.

[henrymidfields]

Just out of curiosity, I actually wonder how RL!Feldmarschall Rommel would fall into this. Nazi Germany's regime would be one of the closest to being completely evil, yet we have a Field Marshall who (is at least said to have) acted much more humanely towards soldiers and civilians - and if the rumors from Wikipedia are correct, this included Jews. And while he did start to have resentment against Hitler, he didn't actively take part in the rebellion against Hitler (though he was forced to commit suicide for his complicit behaviour towards said rebellion).

[blah the Prussian]

37 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Just out of curiosity, I actually wonder how RL!Feldmarschall Rommel would fall into this. Nazi Germany's regime would be one of the closest to being completely evil, yet we have a Field Marshall who (is at least said to have) acted much more humanely towards soldiers and civilians - and if the rumors from Wikipedia are correct, this included Jews. And while he did start to have resentment against Hitler, he didn't actively take part in the rebellion against Hitler (though he was forced to commit suicide for his complicit behaviour towards said rebellion).

The problem with Rommel is that we can't really know the extent to which he was aware of the Holocaust, or what he thought about Fascism. I personally think he was overrated especially compared to the Generals who actually risked life and limb to take out Hitler. If he knew about the Holocaust and did nothing he'd fit with the archetype; if he didn't know I'd say he wouldn't, because part of fitting the trope is that they're making the choice to support evil despite being good. If they think that evil is good they aren't making that decision, they're being deceived.

[henrymidfields]

10 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

The problem with Rommel is that we can't really know the extent to which he was aware of the Holocaust, or what he thought about Fascism. I personally think he was overrated especially compared to the Generals who actually risked life and limb to take out Hitler. If he knew about the Holocaust and did nothing he'd fit with the archetype; if he didn't know I'd say he wouldn't, because part of fitting the trope is that they're making the choice to support evil despite being good. If they think that evil is good they aren't making that decision, they're being deceived.

What about Gayle from Binding Blade, though? As someone said earlier, I doubt Gayle knew the full extent of what Zephiel's has been planning (yet he's shown in the above polls...).

[blah the Prussian]

9 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

What about Gayle from Binding Blade, though? As someone said earlier, I doubt Gayle knew the full extent of what Zephiel's has been planning (yet he's shown in the above polls...).

Meh, I don't personally count Gayle.

[NekoKnight]

9 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

What about Gayle from Binding Blade, though? As someone said earlier, I doubt Gayle knew the full extent of what Zephiel's has been planning (yet he's shown in the above polls...).

10 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Meh, I don't personally count Gayle.

Zephiel is conquering the rest of the continent so that's still pretty bad right? Does Gayle need to know that the endgame plan is "eradicate humanity"?

 

[Moblin Major General]

9 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Meh, I don't personally count Gayle.

Gayle is more like "decent enemy" than a Camus. Gayle is a lot closer to Shiharam in terms of characterization. Both cannot be swayed from their path, and they also are not fully aware just how evil their kings are, but they lack the quality of undying loyalty that Camuses possess.

[blah the Prussian]

7 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Zephiel is conquering the rest of the continent so that's still pretty bad right? Does Gayle need to know that the endgame plan is "eradicate humanity"?

 

We can presume, though, that Gayle doesn't have that much of a problem with conquering the continent, because he doesn't explicitly state otherwise. Murdock and Brunya, though, do know Zephiel's endgame, and go along with it.

[Jotari]

Aside from Murdock and Brunya (who I definitely wouldn't consider Camus), what Camus do know that their monarchs plans go beyond run of the mill conquering? The OG Camus presumably (since Medeus is obviously in it for the dragons). Eldigan definitely not since Shagall didn't have any plans beyond be a dick to everyone. Ishtar? Maybe. She certainly knew the child hunts were bad but I don't think there's any indication she knew Julius was pretty much Satan. Have to leave suddenly so I won't examine the rest right now.

[blah the Prussian]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Aside from Murdock and Brunya (who I definitely wouldn't consider Camus), what Camus do know that their monarchs plans go beyond run of the mill conquering? The OG Camus presumably (since Medeus is obviously in it for the dragons). Eldigan definitely not since Shagall didn't have any plans beyond be a dick to everyone. Ishtar? Maybe. She certainly knew the child hunts were bad but I don't think there's any indication she knew Julius was pretty much Satan. Have to leave suddenly so I won't examine the rest right now.

Well, Medeus really doesn't have much of a plan beyond conquering, Hardin doesn't know he's being used so the Wolfguard don't have to either, Eldigan is a straight example then if the only bad thing Shagall wants to do is conquer, Ishtar is really spotty as a Camus anyway, FE6 has been discussed, Lloyd and Linus don't know what Nergal is planning but they disapprove of him and know their father is his puppet, so I'd say it counts, Selena knows something is off about Vigarde, Ashnard tells Bryce to his face that he murdered the entire Daein Royal Family to take power, and Zelgius knows full well what Sephiran plans to do.