I wish FEHeroes had a better pricing approach

[Katrisa]

So I play a fair bit of League of Legends... the super trollish game that I hate but still get drawn to sometimes.  One of the few things I like about League is their sales model.  Sadly League is trying to move toward a semi gacha system themselves.  But it occurred to me how much Fire Emblem Heroes would have been with a purchase system like League.

What do you guys think?  Would you have enjoyed Fire Emblem Heroes more if you had the ability to buy characters directly, and "skins"?   Likewise with skins to sell out to customers, given enough monetary value they could have evolved in a more true PvP system.  I could easily imagine having a pick/counterpick and live matchups against players.  No combined units and actual live PvP.  

As much as I enjoy the game I get the feeling we're being asked to pay for a pretty and well designed slot machine.  Just my thoughts on something which has been creeping under my skin lately, whenever I start to think about spending money on this game.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Katrisa
More optimistic title

[Vier Mill]

This is a gacha game and it's been oddly generous with the gacha system itself, so I can't complain about it (Though we are already running low on orbs because the small ammount of story chapters released so far, but there hasn't even been a month since release, so they may release more soon).

I think that draw characters the way we do is fine, but there could be a skin store to freely buy skins with orbs and edit or units to wear whatever skins we have acquired, some of them being event exclusive maybe. I have seen this model at other gacha games though it seems to be quite rare, and usually they will just re-release the same character with slightly different stats, weapon and a whole new outfit as a different unit, meaning that if you want it you must draw it again from a summon, which means that you would need a lot of luck to get all skins (And these are usually from time-limited summons...)

Though the system I mentioned would be pretty nice, I guess they will go towards the later option with the alternate skins, I mean, we already know we are getting them because the Choose your Heroes voting.

[eclipse]

It sounds like you're unfamiliar with the gacha system.

FE's not bad when it comes to this.  For a game that's less than a month old, I have enough characters to complete everything I want to, with a hearty reserve.  So far, I haven't run out of content, and if things continue the way they are, I never will.  We can do something useful with unwanted/duplicate characters, and it doesn't feel like a waste of time to deal with it.  And unlike at least one other game i play, I don't feel like any given character is a waste.

[Othin]

I actually like how I'm ending up with a different roster than everyone else, having to figure out how to do things my own way with the characters I've happened to pull rather than saving up for the best ones. Although I understand that people with worse luck with pulls might not feel the same way. 

[eclipse]

43 minutes ago, Othin said:

I actually like how I'm ending up with a different roster than everyone else, having to figure out how to do things my own way with the characters I've happened to pull rather than saving up for the best ones. Although I understand that people with worse luck with pulls might not feel the same way. 

If I compare myself to everyone else, I have bad luck.  However, I don't think I have bad luck, because I can use who I've pulled, which in turn means that I've cleared everything I want to clear (or I have someone that I can level up).

[Florete]

All these people complaining about Heroes' sales model must have never played one of these games before.

Also, what the hell is "ranged gotcha"?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Just because some people in this thread are used to the gacha model doesn't mean it isn't worth complaining about. It certainly has some obnoxious, exploitative elements.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game for sure, and I understand that I'm allowed to play this enjoyable game for free thanks to the sacrifices of folks who lay down hundreds of dollars in order to gamble for the chance to get their character(s) of choice. But it's fine to feel uneasy about the model the game uses; I certainly do.

[Baldrick]

39 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Just because some people in this thread are used to the gacha model doesn't mean it isn't worth complaining about. It certainly has some obnoxious, exploitative elements.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game for sure, and I understand that I'm allowed to play this enjoyable game for free thanks to the sacrifices of folks who lay down hundreds of dollars in order to gamble for the chance to get their character(s) of choice. But it's fine to feel uneasy about the model the game uses; I certainly do.

There's already a FOOLPROOF METHOD to GUARANTEE you can use whatever FE characters you like.

But if you want to discuss the concept of gacha, this isn't the right subforum for it.

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Just because some people in this thread are used to the gacha model doesn't mean it isn't worth complaining about. It certainly has some obnoxious, exploitative elements.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game for sure, and I understand that I'm allowed to play this enjoyable game for free thanks to the sacrifices of folks who lay down hundreds of dollars in order to gamble for the chance to get their character(s) of choice. But it's fine to feel uneasy about the model the game uses; I certainly do.

There's nothing wrong with complaining about the gacha model, but it feels most people who complain didn't realize Heroes was going to be this type of game in the first place and are complaining more about it not being what they wanted despite it never pretending to be anything else.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I suspect a lot of people complaining may be familiar with the style of game but have never played one before so they're finding out things that they don't like about the style for the first time now. It's absolutely fair for them to complain about that, and this is absolutely the correct place for them to do it.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

There's already a FOOLPROOF METHOD to GUARANTEE you can use whatever FE characters you like.

I'm sorry, but this defence is ridiculous. There are many things wrong with that FOOLPROOF METHOD: it is unintuitive, extremely time-consuming (if you want someone rare in particular), and can only be done the first time you start the game (so won't be an option when newer characters are released unless you want to say goodbye to your entire file).

[Baldrick]

22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I suspect a lot of people complaining may be familiar with the style of game but have never played one before so they're finding out things that they don't like about the style for the first time now. It's absolutely fair for them to complain about that, and this is absolutely the correct place for them to do it.

I'm sorry, but this defence is ridiculous. There are many things wrong with that FOOLPROOF METHOD: it is unintuitive, extremely time-consuming (if you want someone rare in particular), and can only be done the first time you start the game (so won't be an option when newer characters are released unless you want to say goodbye to your entire file).

A lot of the complaints are about the basic premise of gacha games (e.g. the topic of this thread that you can't choose to get X character, you have to buy randomised packs). If the OP was familiar with gacha, chose to download Heroes anyway and was disappointed, they only have themselves to blame. From what I've heard, Heroes is a lot less scummy than most gacha games.

I'm not talking about the "uninstall/reinstall" exploit. My FOOLPROOF METHOD is much more reliable and much less convoluted. You can read more about my FOOLPROOF METHOD here.

[Katrisa]

11 hours ago, eclipse said:

It sounds like you're unfamiliar with the gacha system.

It sounds that way but I've played quite a few gacha games.  I absolutely loved Chain Chronicle till its global/English version went offline.  I also recognize this game is relatively well designed for a gacha game (and fairly giving).  I just really hate the fundamental root of pay to win.  I want to spend my money on a game I enjoy.  I want to spend a reasonable amount and get something reasonable in return.  The problem is even in FEHeros you get very very little from spending a reasonable amount of money on the game.  My last five 20 orb pulls have netted zero 5 star characters.  So I could very easily blow 50 dollars on the game and not get a single arena worthy character.  Now with this said I can't complain much as I had some very lucky rolls before this drought.

None the less my point is spending $50.00 on this game is nothing.  You can easily spend hundreds to thousands and still not have access to all of this games content.  But that's the problem gacha is a terrible model to begin with.  The reason it "works" is because the model itself exploits a weak part of human nature.  The urge to gamble.  It pokes at our desire to have something "rare" we don't have or might not be able to get later.  

When I play FEHeros I absolutely enojoy the tactical aspects and complexity of dismantling a random arena team... but I think the gacha model is a terrible shame.  They could have been innovative in the phone/andriod market and moved forward for a much better design IMO.  Ultimately I fear this game could suffer Chain Chronicles fate and loose US financial support (and possibly loose an English version of the game).  I've read gacha games often don't survive Western markets as well because Westerners on average have proved to want more for their money in comparison to the Eastern gambling blitz.  Only time will tell if this turns out to be true but, its on my mind.

Also... can't spell today omg can't believe I botched that title... cold medicine for the win.  

Edited February 27, 2017 by Katrisa

[Thany]

I think the only terrible thing about nintendos gatcha model is its questionable prices for the orbs... but litterally everyone has a problem with that.... they need a price range that makes more sense and is worth your moneys worth. Otherwise Im perfectly fine with how the game is for a gatcha game. (i use more characters here then i do in the dragon ball game.)

[eclipse]

16 minutes ago, Katrisa said:

It sounds that way but I've played quite a few gacha games.  I absolutely loved Chain Chronicle till its global/English version went offline.  I also recognize this game is relatively well designed for a gacha game (and fairly giving).  I just really hate the fundamental root of pay to win.  I want to spend my money on a game I enjoy.  I want to spend a reasonable amount and get something reasonable in return.  The problem is even in FEHeros you get very very little from spending a reasonable amount of money on the game.  My last five 20 orb pulls have netted zero 5 star characters.  So I could very easily blow 50 dollars on the game and not get a single arena worthy character.  Now with this said I can't complain much as I had some very lucky rolls before this drought.

None the less my point is spending $50.00 on this game is nothing.  You can easily spend hundreds to thousands and still not have access to all of this games content.  But that's the problem gacha is a terrible model to begin with.  The reason it "works" is because the model itself exploits a weak part of human nature.  The urge to gamble.  It pokes at our desire to have something "rare" we don't have or might not be able to get later.  

When I play FEHeros I absolutely enojoy the tactical aspects and complexity of dismantling a random arena team... but I think the gacha model is a terrible shame.  They could have been innovative in the phone/andriod market and moved forward for a much better design IMO.  Ultimately I fear this game could suffer Chain Chronicles fate and loose US financial support (and possibly loose an English version of the game).  I've read gacha games often don't survive Western markets as well because Westerners on average have proved to want more for their money in comparison to the Eastern gambling blitz.  Only time will tell if this turns out to be true but, its on my mind.

Also... can't spell today omg can't believe I botched that title... cold medicine for the win.  

So you don't like gacha, and wanted to complain about it, and despite knowing what a gacha is, you still went in.

I don't feel the least bit of sympathy for your arguments.  Yes, the pulls are luck-based, but it's not to the point where there's unclearable content because you didn't pull that 5* (besides those idiotic quests which I don't count because the badges can be earned elsewhere, with some imagination).  This game isn't just a comparison between who pulls the most rares.

My current arena score is over 4K.  The only thing I haven't done is all of the Lunatic quests, and that's because I need to train a physical blue user.  So far, I haven't come across something that someone in my barracks can't handle.  Why does this matter?  I count myself lucky for pulling two 5* units over every single free pull possible (minus 26 for the castle upgrade), and only one of them is on the arena team.  It's not about what you pull, it's about how you use it, and the faster you understand that, the sooner you'll enjoy Heroes (and every other gacha game I've run into).

[Katrisa]

I just wish a developer would look at the market, be brave and attempt to produce a gacha style game with a better design model.  I absolutely love the game right now, I likewise am sporting a very high arena score so functionally I'm doing fine right now.  I believe the game as whole is well designed.  I just feel like it could have been designed better and that doing such would have opened more avenues in the future.  

I totally should have opened this up with a different title as it sounds super negative.  My opinion of the game isn't super negative =-)  I just frown a bit from gacha cash grabs in good games.

I honestly hope as whale spending dips over the next few months they'll take some stabs at updating the pricing, having a decent monthly package etc.  I would totally buy a monthly package for this game...

Edited February 27, 2017 by Katrisa

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Honestly, if the orb prices were 75% of what they currently were, I'd readily drop cash and then they'd have a chunk of change (and my willingness to maybe spend more in the future) that they wouldn't have had at all. I can't be the only one where this isn't the case, either.

 

There may yet be hope for that monthly package. I was chatting with one of the whales and apparently it's starting to get boring at the top, since the meta for max points is so strict and there are too few people with teams of appropriate point value. Evidently, they suspect Nintendo has deployed some sort of bot that generates illegal or implausible +10s (like Alfonse +10 or multiples of bad, strictly 4* pulls that would take 242 000 feathers to +10) to keep them busy.

[Katrisa]

1 hour ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Evidently, they suspect Nintendo has deployed some sort of bot that generates illegal or implausible +10s (like Alfonse +10 or multiples of bad, strictly 4* pulls that would take 242 000 feathers to +10) to keep them busy.

That's actually a rather funny theory.  If Nintendo had some arena bots.  They had similar things in Mario Kart though they were traditionally labeled as such... none the less it wouldn't surprise me.  We've had quite a few folks note there are most definitely some serious hacks running rampant.  I think given draw rates many of these full +10 teams are likely nothing more than hacked accounts.  Which is really unfortunate.  Why spend a bunch of money only to have to deal with people who have unlimited money.

It will be interesting to see how Nintendo handles this accounts.  I would think it would be in there best interest to integrate a funds purchase check with the number of draws to determine if accounts are woefully out of line and ban them accordingly.

[eclipse]

That's better.

My biggest issue with Nintendo ATM is how it's implemented certain things - I outright told them I'm not buying squat until they fix it (has to do with actual game programming).  As for pricing, it's not absolutely awful, but it's also not well-thought out.  The more expensive deals shouldn't be less value per orb, but according to straight-up orb calculations, it is.  If I were to buy something, it'll be one of the smaller packages - while the $40 package is the best deal (IIRC), that's about a week's worth of groceries for me, and I really need to eat (I blame a very finicky stomach - if I truly had things my way, I'd be spending a little over half of that a week).  I'd support a price drop, but that's mainly because I'm broke.

I like the idea of having bots with different unit combos/higher stats for those who can afford to spend more for one banner than I pay my landlord per month - shows them what the lower-rarity units can do, while giving them a somewhat unique challenge.

[Rezzy]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:52 PM, eclipse said:

That's better.

My biggest issue with Nintendo ATM is how it's implemented certain things - I outright told them I'm not buying squat until they fix it (has to do with actual game programming).  As for pricing, it's not absolutely awful, but it's also not well-thought out.  The more expensive deals shouldn't be less value per orb, but according to straight-up orb calculations, it is.  If I were to buy something, it'll be one of the smaller packages - while the $40 package is the best deal (IIRC), that's about a week's worth of groceries for me, and I really need to eat (I blame a very finicky stomach - if I truly had things my way, I'd be spending a little over half of that a week).  I'd support a price drop, but that's mainly because I'm broke.

I like the idea of having bots with different unit combos/higher stats for those who can afford to spend more for one banner than I pay my landlord per month - shows them what the lower-rarity units can do, while giving them a somewhat unique challenge.

I think dropping the price a bit might be better for Nintendo's end as well.  I can afford to buy the occasional Orb package, but it does seem a bit high.  I think the cost-supply-demand curve might net Nintendo a bigger profit if they lower the cost slightly, since more people would buy them.  Budget conscious women in their 30s might be willing to drop $8-9 on a full pull, but $13 seems to be a bit much.  Back when I bought Pokemon cards, I remember being able to get a pack for like $5-8 or so.  If they cost $15, that would have been more than I could afford, and I never would have bought any.

As you stated, they could also make the cost of Orbs steadily drop as you buy more instead of the crazy up-down they have now.  After you get past the first couple tiers of Orb packs, they are roughly the same, and it makes no real sense how they package them.

[Katrisa]

People tracking the charts are showing the game keeps trying to drop off sales charts hard in all territories (especially Japan).  The events keep giving sales short surges, but fundamentally others are also seeing problems with their sales pricing, lack of non arena events (this game needs some kind of challenge dungeon/raid which DOES NOT consume stamina), super high stamina costs, and somewhat erratic hero pulls.

I totally understand this game is a gacha... but there are a number of ways to compensate while still providing fun for the money you spend.

While the game is functionally awesome, it clearly has a large number of long term problems which further detour your average player from dropping money on the game.  I do hope they realize this as they watch the numbers and come up with intelligent solutions for some of our problems.  I want to spend some money on this game (as I enjoy and play it) but the current model is terrible... you have to spend entirely too much money to get something you value yourself.

[Rezzy]

2 hours ago, Katrisa said:

People tracking the charts are showing the game keeps trying to drop off sales charts hard in all territories (especially Japan).  The events keep giving sales short surges, but fundamentally others are also seeing problems with their sales pricing, lack of non arena events (this game needs some kind of challenge dungeon/raid which DOES NOT consume stamina), super high stamina costs, and somewhat erratic hero pulls.

I totally understand this game is a gacha... but there are a number of ways to compensate while still providing fun for the money you spend.

While the game is functionally awesome, it clearly has a large number of long term problems which further detour your average player from dropping money on the game.  I do hope they realize this as they watch the numbers and come up with intelligent solutions for some of our problems.  I want to spend some money on this game (as I enjoy and play it) but the current model is terrible... you have to spend entirely too much money to get something you value yourself.

Do you have links to the sales data?  I'd be interested in seeing the numbers.

[Katrisa]

You can see information on the sales in this article by Jonathan Jordan (pictures below from his article):
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4051555-fire-emblem-heroes-performance-tell-us-success-nintendos-mobile-strategy

The data was pulled from appannie.com from my understanding.  The top chart in each is downloads and the bottom chart is sales.  So what's being seen is people are downloading the application at a very healthy rate in Japan and US.  But sales are dropping rapidly in all geographies.  Which seems to match up with peoples perceptions.  People like the game notably, but are having trouble justifying paying (and possibly playing) in the long run.  

Edited March 4, 2017 by Katrisa

[Captain Karnage]

What I think think they should do is follow the mobile ccg model. As an avid player of Shadowverse I really like whenever a new card set comes out the give everyone 10 free packs, no with Heros I think whenever new characters are released we should get a free summoning session with a 4.5% to get a 5 star character. I like how in Shadowverse, even though it takes a lot to do, 8 can trade in my old cards for points to exchange for new cards, so those extra super super Rares can be obtained, Heroes should let us exchange our feathers we get from characters to trade in for at least 3 star characters of our choice, however it'll be expensive to do so.

Those are just my thoughts on it, I think if they want to keep attention they need to not drop the 2 free orbs a day thing, and offer more ways to get what we want.