What is with the archers?

[JJ48]

First it was Mr. "Build Your Team Around Beating Me" Takumi in the Arena, and now I've just played two Tenth Stratum matches, both featuring level 40 Gordins who were utterly broken!

My team consisted of:  Eliwood (4-Star, All Skills), Sharena (4-Star, All Skills), Jeorge (5-Star, All Skills), and Camilla (5-Star, All Skills).  Not only was Gordin capable of 1-shotting every single one of my team members, but even after using Light's Blessing and having everyone surround him, Eliwood hit for 2x2, Sharena 4x2, and Camilla 1x4 (with Draconic Aura, no less!), leaving Gordin still in pretty good shape, if Jeorge hadn't (fortunately) had his Blazing Flame.  The second match, I didn't have any more Light's Blessings, so Gordin just wiped my entire team off the map single-handedly.

In the main series, Archers tended to be high attack with relatively low hitpoints.  Why is it that the developers of Heroes decided to turn them into better tanks than Armored units?  Why not just call the game "Fire Emblem:  Archers" and be done with it?

Maybe the next update will introduce Rebecca, who will have a special ability (with a one-turn cooldown) to hit every single enemy on the field for a straight 50 damage, while also taking no more than 1 damage from any attack.  And let's give her Close Counter too, because why not?  -__-

[Extrasolar]

I see it as Intelligent Systems making up for how generally awful the vast majority of archers are in most of the games, barring Radiant Dawn where they're amazing (sans Leonardo) and Fates where they're relatively good.

Personally, I love my 4* Brave Bow Gordin and 5* Brave Bow+ Klein. They're amazing.

But yeah, Gordin is very physically tanky, but his resistance is paper. That was your main problem with him; If a mage gets the drop on him first (and is likely capable of doubling due to his poor speed and Brave Bow speed nerf), he'll very likely be one-shot. Have no one to control him, and he'll be doing major damage.

Brave Weapons are amazing in general in Heroes, especially because the units that have them tend to have pretty good attack, which is why I'm planning to promote my 3* Barst just to get access to that Brave Axe.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Roflolxp54]

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

First it was Mr. "Build Your Team Around Beating Me" Takumi in the Arena, and now I've just played two Tenth Stratum matches, both featuring level 40 Gordins who were utterly broken!

The 2 Tenth Stratum matches sound like a case of "The Computer is a Cheating Bastard" trope, which is nothing new in the Fire Emblem series (Awakening with hackforges and enemy-exclusive Lunatic+ skills, Fates with characters usable in another route running skills that are disc-locked content). The AI is known to have named units run skills that are currently, if not always, illegal (ie. Hector running Wings of Mercy in a story mode map). A player-owned 5-star Gordin would be using Brave Bow+, Atk +3, Vantage +3, and Shove. It's possible that what you see used by the AI is the possibilities your units may have once skill inheritance is released.

[Arcanite]

14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

First it was Mr. "Build Your Team Around Beating Me" Takumi in the Arena, and now I've just played two Tenth Stratum matches, both featuring level 40 Gordins who were utterly broken!

My team consisted of:  Eliwood (4-Star, All Skills), Sharena (4-Star, All Skills), Jeorge (5-Star, All Skills), and Camilla (5-Star, All Skills).  Not only was Gordin capable of 1-shotting every single one of my team members, but even after using Light's Blessing and having everyone surround him, Eliwood hit for 2x2, Sharena 4x2, and Camilla 1x4 (with Draconic Aura, no less!), leaving Gordin still in pretty good shape, if Jeorge hadn't (fortunately) had his Blazing Flame.  The second match, I didn't have any more Light's Blessings, so Gordin just wiped my entire team off the map single-handedly.

In the main series, Archers tended to be high attack with relatively low hitpoints.  Why is it that the developers of Heroes decided to turn them into better tanks than Armored units?  Why not just call the game "Fire Emblem:  Archers" and be done with it?

Maybe the next update will introduce Rebecca, who will have a special ability (with a one-turn cooldown) to hit every single enemy on the field for a straight 50 damage, while also taking no more than 1 damage from any attack.  And let's give her Close Counter too, because why not?  -__-

First of all The enemies in the tenth stratum have a 10% stat boost and they have bonus skills that they wouldn't have normally like sometimes you might see a Takumi with vantage (yes that exists). Not to mention Gordin has a high base defense but he's not that good. He has low speed regularly and his brave bow kind of makes him a bit of a whiff. Takumi will always be a threat though but as long as you have someone fat enough to smack him up the turn after, he shouldn't be a problem.

[Extrasolar]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

Not to mention Gordin has a high base defense but he's not that good. He has low speed regularly and his brave bow kind of makes him a bit of a whiff.

I respectfully disagree, sir or madam! Gordin is pretty good overall, and outshines any archer not named Takumi or Klein. Brave Bow lets him one-shot tons of things before they get the chance to touch him, and he can tank a physical hit no problem.

[Ice Dragon]

Trying to take out Gordin with a team of physical units is basically akin to trying to take out Felicia with a team of magical units (or Saizo with a team of physical units). It's really not going to happen without a lot of firepower (or a Raven tome user for weapon triangle advantage against colorless).

It's not really unique to archers. If you're up against a tanky unit and you can't hit them on their less tanky side, have no effective weapons, and have no weapon triangle advantage, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Thor Odinson]

I faced vantage Takumi in the 10th strat and I was lazy and didn't bother to check until it was too late. That was fun. 

I think the only one I can clear 10th strat consistently with, given mostly neutral-to-advantageous triangle setup, is Nino running full team support. It's quite a bit rougher than 8th and 9th, even considering all at lv 40.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[Arcanite]

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I respectfully disagree, sir or madam! Gordin is pretty good overall, and outshines any archer not named Takumi or Klein. Brave Bow lets him one-shot tons of things before they get the chance to touch him, and he can tank a physical hit no problem.

I have Gordin so I know his power. In fact, he is my only archer/flier counter so he was a part of my main team the first few weeks of the game. That's why I said he's a bit of a whiff and not a complete whiff. The archer list is:

1. Takumi

2. Jeorge

3. Klein 

4. Gordin

In my opinion at least. His thickness is what makes him useful. One can say, he is a good whiff!

Edited March 6, 2017 by Arcanite

[JJ48]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you're up against a tanky unit and you can't hit them on their less tanky side, have no effective weapons, and have no weapon triangle advantage, you're gonna have a bad time.

Well, that's part of the problem:  there is no weapon triangle advantage against bow units. 

Also, it's not just that he's tanky (I've lost numerous battles to a tanky unit whose only counter died and my remaining characters couldn't even damage him.  Irritating, but part of the game), but rather it's that he's tanky and incredibly potent at attacking, too.  Generally in games, min-maxed characters end up as either glass cannons or brick walls.  Gordin's apparently a brick cannon!

[Roflolxp54]

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, that's part of the problem:  there is no weapon triangle advantage against bow units. 

Not entirely true as Cecilia, male Robin, and Henry exist. Of course, one of them is considered the best option.

There's also Setsuna, who gets the Assassin Bow (anti-flier and anti-dagger bow) and Bowbreaker passive.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Extrasolar]

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Also, it's not just that he's tanky (I've lost numerous battles to a tanky unit whose only counter died and my remaining characters couldn't even damage him.  Irritating, but part of the game), but rather it's that he's tanky and incredibly potent at attacking, too.

That's actually pretty common in Heroes. Have you seen any Seliphs? He's tanky as hell, and has a high attacking stat (though his resistance and speed are pretty bad just like Gordin), though he lacks the ability to attack from range.
 

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Generally in games, min-maxed characters end up as either glass cannons or brick walls.

And then you have Radiant Dawn Gatrie, who combines uber tankiness with amazing speed and damage

 

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, that's part of the problem:  there is no weapon triangle advantage against bow units. 

Do you have a 4* Robin or a 4* Cecilia? Their weapons give advantages over colorless units.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Arcanite]

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, that's part of the problem:  there is no weapon triangle advantage against bow units. 

Also, it's not just that he's tanky (I've lost numerous battles to a tanky unit whose only counter died and my remaining characters couldn't even damage him.  Irritating, but part of the game), but rather it's that he's tanky and incredibly potent at attacking, too.  Generally in games, min-maxed characters end up as either glass cannons or brick walls.  Gordin's apparently a brick cannon!

Gordin has no resistance so what do? Have a mage on your team, he also doesn't have much speed so it seriously should be cake once you have someone who can attack with Magikz. At the end of the day, Gordin is small potatoes next to takumi, 10th stratum is hard, and always have a mage on your team ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JJ48]

3 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Not entirely true as Cecilia, male Robin, and Henry exist. Of course, one of them is considered the best option.

Point taken.  I wish there were an FE7 option, though...

[Roflolxp54]

Just now, JJ48 said:

Point taken.  I wish there were an FE7 option, though...

Cecilia's from FE6, so close enough. Problem is that she's physically fragile and slow in combat; 23 neutral Spd cap at lv. 40 4-stars and can get ORKO'd if jumped by a Brave Bow archer (20 neutral Def cap at lv. 40 4-stars). She also hates anti-cavalry tomes and basically anything that isn't coming from a blue unit.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

There's also dragons (albeit, the best ones for the job aren't from Elibe). Nowi and Adult Tiki can chase Gordin around, doing magic damage he can't counter, and then countering with magic should he choose to shoot at them.

[JJ48]

17 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Cecilia's from FE6, so close enough. Problem is that she's physically fragile and slow in combat; 23 neutral Spd cap at lv. 40 4-stars and can get ORKO'd if jumped by a Brave Bow archer (20 neutral Def cap at lv. 40 4-stars). She also hates anti-cavalry tomes and basically anything that isn't coming from a blue unit.

Do the Healers target Resistance?  Because I'm looking at Serra for the colorless slot on my team, once I train her up a bit more.

[Roflolxp54]

Yes, healers do target Resistance though their damage output usually isn't impressive (aside from maybe the Pain staff, which deals 10 damage post-battle, nonlethal). Assault staff has the highest Might out of any staff weapon at 10 but the other staves are popular for their secondary effects (Spd reduction, Atk reduction, Movement reduction, conversion of stat bonuses on enemy into penalties, health sapping).

[Extrasolar]

Just now, Roflolxp54 said:

Yes, healers do target Resistance though their damage output usually isn't impressive (aside from maybe the Pain staff, which deals 10 damage post-battle, nonlethal). Assault staff has the highest Might out of any staff weapon at 10 but the other staves are popular for their secondary effects (Spd reduction, Atk reduction, Movement reduction, conversion of stat bonuses on enemy into penalties, health sapping).

Adding that any damage healers do is cut in half, so it's pretty much all about the staff effects based on unit. That's why Pain is such a great skill on the healers that can use it if you're going for damage.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Of course, do beware of staves on the enemy team. Nothing quite beats the amount of "What." involved in running into a Tenth healer who's toting ~50 Atk and 35+ Spd.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Of course, do beware of staves on the enemy team. Nothing quite beats the amount of "What." involved in running into a Tenth healer who's toting ~50 Atk and 35+ Spd.

Or Asama with 35+ Def and Threaten Atk. Even worse when there's a second staff behind him with Fear.