Please, Echoes, be good.

[property of nuvelle]

While Fates WAS my favorite game and I understand the complaints behind it, it's sad that people are already shitting on this game for being in the 3ds era with it. This seems like it'll be a super strong entry and I'm sure it's going be. Full voice acting is going to be super awesome.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Scandalous sounding opinion alert. This is NOT a hot take.

I think Echoes is set to be the most contentious entry into the series as far as who likes it and who doesn't. It's just so characteristically not fire emblem and chooses to pander to neither new or old (old in the international sense) fans. Gaiden breaks free of its predecessor in favor of adopting what was popular at the time (RE: Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest). Zelda 2 did this as well (RE: side scrolling action platformer) and it's still reviled today. Interestingly, Breath of the Wild does this too (RE: Ubisoft styled open world games) and will probably continue to be loved, but that game was also in development for a long time with a massive budget. Zelda 2 and Gaiden are pet projects by comparison, and so is Echoes with its short development cycle and (I assume) smallest budget since shadow dragon. The odds are stacked against it, and I don't blame FE fans for deciding to wait on this game for reviews and more information - it's too much of a departure to put their money down.

3 minutes ago, unique said:

literally the only change they'd have to make is aging up catria and atlas by one year since they're the only characters exactly 20

Drinking age is 20 in Japan. But if you mean for international release, then yeah they'd probably do that.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gustavos

[Michelaar]

Forsyth's face will make this game the best.

[Augestein]

I say bring on the strange mechanics. It's time to play this again. 

[SuperIb]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

Man, it's refreshing to know how old the characters are for once. No more "technically adult" crap.

Okay honestly, true. I personally really like knowing the ages of characters. It just gives more personality and detail to them. :p

1 hour ago, Thane said:

To be honest I'm more surprised Genny is so young, and that it's implied she and Saber end up together, and that guy's 34 or something.

Can I get together w/ Saber instead?

Is it weird that I find that refreshing to see? I just don't normally see age gaps in pairings like that so when looking at it now I'm just like, "Oh that's kewl."

Anywho, I'm so pumped for this game, I really do feel like it'll easily become one of my favorites. If not for the gameplay, then for the art and music. (which is all phenomenal) I'm just so hyped, and based off Linkmstr's videos I saw a bit of, the game intrigues me greatly.

[UNLEASH IT]

19 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I still want a Lord above the age of 20 though.

Micaiah is at least 23 

[maybe]

47 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Drinking age is 20 in Japan. But if you mean for international release, then yeah they'd probably do that.

yeah that was in response to a post about changing the character ages 

[Refa]

Where are people getting Sigurd's age from?  I don't remember seeing any official sources on that.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

Disgusting. With Catria, Clair and Mathilda in the game? Your waifu game is weak, weak I tell you.

Yeah man, but like, Palla IS the best peg knight you know!

Palla has always been one of my favorite peg knights, and would be my favorite wyvern lord if it wasn't for Minerva.

I just made myself sad thinking that I will probably never see Hidari Minerva...

[Pikappa93]

2 hours ago, Gustavos said:

I think Echoes is set to be the most contentious entry into the series as far as who likes it and who doesn't. It's just so characteristically not fire emblem and chooses to pander to neither new or old (old in the international sense) fans. Gaiden breaks free of its predecessor in favor of adopting what was popular at the time (RE: Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest). Zelda 2 did this as well (RE: side scrolling action platformer) and it's still reviled today. Interestingly, Breath of the Wild does this too (RE: Ubisoft styled open world games) and will probably continue to be loved, but that game was also in development for a long time with a massive budget. Zelda 2 and Gaiden are pet projects by comparison, and so is Echoes with its short development cycle and (I assume) smallest budget since shadow dragon. The odds are stacked against it, and I don't blame FE fans for deciding to wait on this game for reviews and more information - it's too much of a departure to put their money down.

Don't know about the budget though. Full voice acting is not a small detail, I believe if the budget was really that small they couldn't have possibly done it. I watched a streaming of the game and there are a lot of dialogues (some supports are short and others are not, but there are also base convos, memory fragment events and obviously story dialogues - and they're not short at all IMO).
Regarding everything else, I mostly agree with you. Like the original Gaiden, this is going to be contentious, it is a very unconventional FE title due to so many aspects. But I don't think the odds are necessarily stacked against it, from what I've seen it's a very solid entry despite its weird nature.

[DivineLion]

It's going to be refreshing getting introduce to the new mechanics of the game and of course the epic "gaiden" maps

[Zapp Branniglenn]

41 minutes ago, Pikappa93 said:

Don't know about the budget though. Full voice acting is not a small detail, I believe if the budget was really that small they couldn't have possibly done it. I watched a streaming of the game and there are a lot of dialogues (some supports are short and others are not, but there are also base convos, memory fragment events and obviously story dialogues - and they're not short at all IMO).
Regarding everything else, I mostly agree with you. Like the original Gaiden, this is going to be contentious, it is a very unconventional FE title due to so many aspects. But I don't think the odds are necessarily stacked against it, from what I've seen it's a very solid entry despite its weird nature.

Keep in mind that Echoes' amount of voice acting may not exceed Fates by that large of a margin. Fates boasted double the amount of characters at about 70 total as well as private quarters dialogues with each. Echoes might have more cutscene length (I couldn't tell you) but Fates/Awakening boasts 3D cutscenes which I would assume are more costly. Map design is further evidence of a small budget, reusing maps from the original a la Shadow Dragon. And those dungeon battles with no terrain and each army lined up on opposite side formation. There's also less consideration for character balance thanks to the smaller roster, more restrictions on reclassing, less classes, and skills tied to weapons - not classes.

And finally I assume Echoes will simply be a smaller game than the last two. I don't know what Chapter 6 entails, but I assume that the credits will roll after chapter 5. And I figure if you ran Gaiden on 3DS hardware, it would be about a 20 hour experience, less if you habitually skipped through enemy phases involving tons of missing and summoning - as most gaiden players wish they could do. The series standard is about 30 hours for a first time player. That doesn't even include 3DS' massive focus on paralogues and DLC, Awakening's spotpass content, and Fates' three different versions. I do expect that Echoes' shorter length will be a common criticism unless there's more to the game I'm unaware of.

Oh, and I don't have an opinion with regards to how I or anybody else will ultimately feel about Echoes until it releases. I'm just saying that it's bizarre nature will overshadow the discussions about what it does right and what it does wrong. As seen with the previous entries on 3DS. Oh, and prepare for people to lighten up their general opinions on Fates a year from now. You know they will.

Edit: Oh, and the biggest evidence of low budget is marketing. A lot of a game's budget is spent on marketing. Advertisements, contracting reviewers and journalists to write about your game, etc. Where have you heard of Echoes outside of Serenes and similar unofficial yet dedicated outlets? A few videos on official Nintendo Youtube channels and the Fire Emblem Direct is all I can think of.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gustavos

[Hardin]

4 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I do really like the art this time around. I liked Kozaki as well, but I think the art director for Awakening/Fates really damaged what he could do for Fire Emblem. So glad we got a new art director for Echoes.

Kusakihara did unit design for Echoes, and he was lead director of the game. If anything his influence on the franchise is bigger than ever. 

[Pikappa93]

27 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Keep in mind that Echoes' amount of voice acting may not exceed Fates by that large of a margin. Fates boasted double the amount of characters at about 70 total as well as private quarters dialogues with each. Echoes might have more cutscene length (I couldn't tell you) but Fates/Awakening boasts 3D cutscenes which I would assume are more costly. Map design is further evidence of a small budget, reusing maps from the original a la Shadow Dragon. And those dungeon battles with no terrain and each army lined up on opposite side formation. There's also less consideration for character balance thanks to the smaller roster, more restrictions on reclassing, less classes, and skills tied to weapons - not classes.

And finally I assume Echoes will simply be a smaller game than the last two. I don't know what Chapter 6 entails, but I assume that the credits will roll after chapter 5. And I figure if you ran Gaiden on 3DS hardware, it would be about a 20 hour experience, less if you habitually skipped through enemy phases involving tons of missing and summoning - as most gaiden players wish they could do. The series standard is about 30 hours for a first time player. That doesn't even include 3DS' massive focus on paralogues and DLC, Awakening's spotpass content, and Fates' three different versions. I do expect that Echoes' shorter length will be a common criticism unless there's more to the game I'm unaware of.

Oh, and I don't have an opinion with regards to how I or anybody else will ultimately feel about Echoes until it releases. I'm just saying that it's bizarre nature will overshadow the discussions about what it does right and what it does wrong. As seen with the previous entries on 3DS. Oh, and prepare for people to lighten up their general opinions on Fates a year from now. You know they will.

Edit: Oh, and the biggest evidence of low budget is marketing. A lot of a game's budget is spent on marketing. Advertisements, contracting reviewers and journalists to write about your game, etc. Where have you heard of Echoes outside of Serenes and similar unofficial yet dedicated outlets? A few videos on official Nintendo Youtube channels and the Fire Emblem Direct is all I can think of.

Even if Echoes has a much smaller cast than, I can assure you it does exceed Fates amount of voice acting. By far.

As for advertising, I don't think it was that different with other FE titles? I don't remember Fates being much more advertised than Echoes. Also, reviews will come out a few days before release date, like always. The major difference is that Fates was announced in January for a June release in Japan and next year for NA and Europe, it took so much longer. On the other hand, Echoes was announced just a few months before release.

[SuperIb]

Let's take a moment to acknowledge the fact that we really don't know when development started considering the announcement of this game was a complete ambush towards us. Literally no one saw this coming, so saying things like "the development time was this short" or "the budget was this low" seems irrelevant and is an easily discard-able argument. (Unless of course we actually do know when development time started and the actual budget, in which case I was not aware of)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 hours ago, Pikappa93 said:

Even if Echoes has a much smaller cast than, I can assure you it does exceed Fates amount of voice acting. By far.

As for advertising, I don't think it was that different with other FE titles? I don't remember Fates being much more advertised than Echoes. Also, reviews will come out a few days before release date, like always. The major difference is that Fates was announced in January for a June release in Japan and next year for NA and Europe, it took so much longer. On the other hand, Echoes was announced just a few months before release.

I'll take your word for it on voice work, but for advertising, that's precisely it. Fates had to maintain relevance before it's release for much longer than Echoes' three month hype cycle. Publishers (and consumers) would prefer you announce as early as possible to promote the system. A developer would prefer to wait as long as possible in order to have the shortest (cheapest) market presence. There's also Smash. While Corrin's inclusion wouldn't be filed under Fates' individual marketing budget, I would still definitely classify that as marketing. In the west, we met Corrin months before we even got Fates, and I remember his reveal trailer being the first example of the English voice talent. Echoes has neither a Smash game receiving updates nor the preceding release of Warriors to help get the word out. There's also commercials/video ads. Internationally, FE8, 10, and 11 apparently did not have commercials. 3 out 7 games. But the Japanese ad for Echoes just dropped, and odds are good we're getting one here.

And apparently international marketing is hard, since they finally announced Awakening was coming overseas with a freaking tweet. On the very same week they had an E3 press conference they could have used instead.

 

3 hours ago, SuperIb said:

Let's take a moment to acknowledge the fact that we really don't know when development started considering the announcement of this game was a complete ambush towards us. Literally no one saw this coming, so saying things like "the development time was this short" or "the budget was this low" seems irrelevant and is an easily discard-able argument. (Unless of course we actually do know when development time started and the actual budget, in which case I was not aware of)

Yes, companies almost never reveal development time or budget. I assume to avoid defamatory accusations like the ones I've made. And when they do, if often raises more questions than it answers, like the Last Guardian's decade long development cycle. Length can often mean little when a project undergoes multiple transformations and cancellations, such as Final Fantasy XV. But for Echoes, it's the third game developed for 3DS hardware and an extremely faithful remake. We can assume it's a low budget production. Possibly entering development with a B team as early as Fates' late development, meant to release during the years where the A team figures out FE Switch. But we'll never really know beyond guessing.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gustavos

[Lynsanity]

I have some concerns about the pacing. Dungeon gameplay looks kind of repetitive and has a weird tempo: 3D exploration that gets interrupted for map-based tactical combat. Plus in general I hate dungeon crawls.

Initially I was worried there wouldn't be enough dialogue and characterization given that they're adapting an NES game. But then I watched Linkmstr playing and it took 20 minutes just to see combat in chapter 1. So now I'm worried the game will actually be too chatty.

Finally, it's still a bummer to me that I can't play this on Switch. That 720p handheld screen has spoiled me for the 3DS a bit.

All that said, I still have an open mind and I'll be watching and reading more about it.

[property of nuvelle]

1 hour ago, Lynsanity said:

I have some concerns about the pacing. Dungeon gameplay looks kind of repetitive and has a weird tempo: 3D exploration that gets interrupted for map-based tactical combat. Plus in general I hate dungeon crawls.

I understand your concern there. After seeing it more in depth, I'm really hoping they try to spice things up a bit. While I definitely still look forward to this feature, I feel like there wasn't anything that stood out. Break things, find things, fight things. I was really hoping to see puzzles (in case I missed anything in Linkmstr's gameplay) or anything that will add variety. Anyways, dungeon crawling isn't what makes FE an awesome series. This will definitely still be a great addition to Echoes and I'm fairly certain it'll be my favorite.

Also, we're still getting FE Switch next year, which is something to be hyped about.

[Thane]

37 minutes ago, Lynsanity said:

I have some concerns about the pacing. Dungeon gameplay looks kind of repetitive and has a weird tempo: 3D exploration that gets interrupted for map-based tactical combat. Plus in general I hate dungeon crawls.

Keep in mind though that a lot of enemies seem to be easily avoidable, and you can ambush them and mak them lose a portion of the health before the fight starts. 

I also don't think the dungeons will be too massive, save for one or two towards the end, and they're filled with goodies, so that should be enough to satisfy me at any rate!

[L9999]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

Keep in mind though that a lot of enemies seem to be easily avoidable, and you can ambush them and mak them lose a portion of the health before the fight starts. 

I also don't think the dungeons will be too massive, save for one or two towards the end, and they're filled with goodies, so that should be enough to satisfy me at any rate!

Echoes plays out like Earthbound? Didn't expect that.

[GAIDENBRO]

Echoes is the most refreshing game of the series. I hope it doesn't become the underrated quality product of Fire Emblem.

[Folt]

5 hours ago, GAIDENBRO said:

Echoes is the most refreshing game of the series. I hope it doesn't become the underrated quality product of Fire Emblem.

I have a feeling it will.

But I for one am happy that I'll finally be playing one of the JP-only games remade, and something so indubitably different from what old and new fans think of when they think Fire Emblem.

(And I'm really happy to see Hiroshi Kamiya voice an FE character.)