Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Given how he was guarding the seal, he likely sensed or noticed that the seal was weakening when Adrah stole the Shield and broke the orbs off, and Medeus likely would notice the seal weakening since he guarded it. I don't doubt him having knowledge of the orbs and the Shield. I do have doubts on him forging the spheres used there. 

First off, I don't know. I forgot why we were discussing this. XP

Also, I dunno how you can say that she was perfectly healthy. Young I already mentioned why, but healthy was never stated to be the case. That's just a natural assumption anyone would make. We have 1 illustration, and Forseti mentioning the form she took. 

Second, yes, she fought, or might have, fought several dragons, but we're not talking huge armies that the Earth Dragon War here. We're talking about the Ice, Fire, and Mage dragons mostly, all of which are weaker to the Divine Dragons, and they aren't huge armies of them, but rather more minority given what we've seen. Also, Naga wanted to kill Tiki because she feared Tiki's power, indicating that Tiki is potentially STRONGER than Naga, and if she degenerated, the human race was finished. That means that Tiki would have made short work of those weaker dragons. 

More or less. However, there's a difference. The interview confirmed that unlike other weapons, Loptyr, Forseti, and Naga's tomes had their wills infused into it, and the carriers would take that will into them. However, since both Naga and Forseti still had a physical body, they would not be fully controlling the person, whereas Loptyr would cause he's got no body. But the point here is that Naga's physical body played no role here beyond forging the tome. 

Actually, here's the thing. By the time of Awakening, 2000 years passed after Shadow Dragon. However, everything takes place 1000 years in between. Falchion likely unleashed more of its power when it was merged with the power of the Shield of Seals to unlock the Exalted Falchion, so it contained all of Naga's power. Also, Naga in that verse could be different, but its possible that Naga is actually Nagi, who's taking a role as Naga. And Tiki taking the role of Naga in Future Past indicates that the power of Naga is equal, if not even greater, than the original Naga, as Tiki's power is already commended to rival/surpass Naga's.

Also, at that point, Naga doesn't seem to even have a physical form, but takes a more spiritual form. 

Since the Holy Weapons were just meant to take care of Loptyr, Naga likely made the tome purposely a temporary thing, as it would weaken the will of her in it, which would make sense, cause she didn't want to possess humans by her will or humans to take her will into themselves. But the blade of Falchion is said to always be untouched by the ravages of time, and the power was likely sealed after the Exalted Falchion was unleashed when Grima first made a continental assault. 

There's no evidence in either direction for Medeus help forge one of the spheres. He seems to have knowledge of them given his role.

Forsetti's dialogue indicated Naga was at their prime in addition to the illustration. 

Yes is it is implied Tiki is or will be stronger then Naga.

It is possible Awakening Naga is Nagi.

There's nothing that indicates the Naga tome is temporary, it worked just as well when Julia used it. If you go of Awakening, the Falchion broke and had to be reforged.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

There's no evidence in either direction for Medeus help forge one of the spheres. He seems to have knowledge of them given his role.

I'll give you that one.

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Forsetti's dialogue indicated Naga was at their prime in addition to the illustration. 

All Forseti says is commenting that Naga is incredibly powerful. That doesn't mean that she was truly at her prime. 

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Yes is it is implied Tiki is or will be stronger then Naga.

I'm betting that as an infant, Tiki did what Anankos did: destroyed an entire forest down. 

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It is possible Awakening Naga is Nagi.

That is the famous theory, given that Nagi is heavily implied to be Naga's reincarnation. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's nothing that indicates the Naga tome is temporary, it worked just as well when Julia used it. If you go of Awakening, the Falchion broke and had to be reforged.

Actually, its not just Naga's tome. EVERY Holy Weapon ended up growing weaker as time went on. It just took a long time for it to happen, but given how they were forged, its meant to last for a while, but not forever.

Also, no. Falchion's HILT broke, but Lucina and Owain were mentioning that the blade itself, the blade being the actual fang, is ageless. The hilt was made by humans, so it would eventually wear out and break, so would need to be reforged. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

As far as the Jugdral weapons go, a Kaga interview actually did say eventually the crusader weapons would lose their blood bond, growing weaker in the process, and consequentially being able to be used by those outside of the bloodline as a tradeoff; which matches up damn near perfectly with Awakening.

 

aside from that, it should be noted that in FE11/12 Bantu nor any other manakete can use multiple dragonstones.

 

however, both Tiki and Nagi, the playable divine dragons, can use whatever fucking stone they want- Fire, Wyvern, Ice, anything Marth can get his hands on. And this is a trait NOT PRESENT in any other friendly or enemy manakete except these two divine dragons.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Emperor Hardin]

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll give you that one.

All Forseti says is commenting that Naga is incredibly powerful. That doesn't mean that she was truly at her prime. 

I'm betting that as an infant, Tiki did what Anankos did: destroyed an entire forest down. 

That is the famous theory, given that Nagi is heavily implied to be Naga's reincarnation. 

Actually, its not just Naga's tome. EVERY Holy Weapon ended up growing weaker as time went on. It just took a long time for it to happen, but given how they were forged, its meant to last for a while, but not forever.

Also, no. Falchion's HILT broke, but Lucina and Owain were mentioning that the blade itself, the blade being the actual fang, is ageless. The hilt was made by humans, so it would eventually wear out and break, so would need to be reforged. 

He'd mention Naga had grown weaker if that was what the writers intended. It'd be exceptionally if Naga exited their prime when they were still extremely young.

It is all but stated Nagi is Naga's reincarnation or successor, so you are correct there.

Its never stated or implied the hilt of Falchion was made by humans. Also its stated the blade itself broke, hence its radically different appearance.

Again, where is it stated the hilt was made by humans?

23 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

As far as the Jugdral weapons go, a Kaga interview actually did say eventually the crusader weapons would lose their blood bond, growing weaker in the process, and consequentially being able to be used by those outside of the bloodline as a tradeoff; which matches up damn near perfectly with Awakening.

 

aside from that, it should be noted that in FE11/12 Bantu nor any other manakete can use multiple dragonstones.

 

however, both Tiki and Nagi, the playable divine dragons, can use whatever fucking stone they want- Fire, Wyvern, Ice, anything Marth can get his hands on. And this is a trait NOT PRESENT in any other friendly or enemy manakete except these two divine dragons.

Actually Bantu can use the Icestone, Magestone, and Wyvernstone in the DS remakes. I can even upload a picture if you want.

Tiki and Nagi cannot use the Earthstone whatsoever, while Medeus can use all stones but the Divinestone.

Medeus and all the enemy Manaketes can also multiple dragonstones.

Also lore has never indicated Dragons can use stones outside of their tribe, so its quite possibly a simple gameplay mechanic to balance out breakable dragonstones.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

He'd mention Naga had grown weaker if that was the case if that was the .

Not really. The point of the story was just to indicate Naga's strength. No need to point out that Naga had grown weaker, if Forseti even knew that. Just like with Medeus, there's no telling that Naga didn't suffer any scars of war. We just know bits and pieces of history and second handed story telling of her, but no direct confirmation. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

All but stated Nagi is Naga's reincarnation or successor.

Why would they ever make it easy? XP

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its never stated or implied the hilt of Falchion was made by humans. Also its stated the blade itself broke, hence its radically different appearance.

Again, where is it stated the hilt was made by humans.

Read Lucina and Owain's B Support. Its right there.

Owain: Heh! All right. I'll speak, and you can practice translating... Hark! Your partner fang resists the remorseless arrow of time! It is infused with the breath of gods and the passion of ages. Should a thousand years pass, it shall never know the red sleep!

Lucina: That one is simple. Falchion's blade will never dull or rust no matter how much time passes.

Owain: But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.

Lucina: Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and the pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

^ Going by that, the guard, hilt, etc. were all forged through human or made from human-like materials if anything. Its truly the blade itself that is Naga's fang. So Falchion's blade never broke, but the hilt has gone through breaking and reforges, hence why the appearance of Falchion from Shadow Dragon to Awakening varied. 

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Tiki and Nagi cannot use the Earthstone whatsoever.

That's because there's really only 1 Earth Dragonstone in existence, and that belongs to Medeus. 

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. The point of the story was just to indicate Naga's strength. No need to point out that Naga had grown weaker, if Forseti even knew that. Just like with Medeus, there's no telling that Naga didn't suffer any scars of war. We just know bits and pieces of history and second handed story telling of her, but no direct confirmation. 

Why would they ever make it easy? XP

Read Lucina and Owain's B Support. Its right there.

Owain: Heh! All right. I'll speak, and you can practice translating... Hark! Your partner fang resists the remorseless arrow of time! It is infused with the breath of gods and the passion of ages. Should a thousand years pass, it shall never know the red sleep!

Lucina: That one is simple. Falchion's blade will never dull or rust no matter how much time passes.

Owain: But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.

Lucina: Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and the pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

^ Going by that, the guard, hilt, etc. were all forged through human or made from human-like materials if anything. Its truly the blade itself that is Naga's fang. So Falchion's blade never broke, but the hilt has gone through breaking and reforges, hence why the appearance of Falchion from Shadow Dragon to Awakening varied. 

That's because there's really only 1 Earth Dragonstone in existence, and that belongs to Medeus. 

When Kaga intends something, he'd tell it. Especially given all the descriptive material we have on the material of Darna and all of them depict Naga as perfectly healthy, unscarred and young. Also why are you so vehemently arguing Naga was crippled, what purpose does it serve?

That still never says the non blade parts were made by humans. Naga made the Falchion and Gotoh kept it until he gave it to Anri, at which point it already had a hilt. Everything indicates the whole blade was made by Dragons.

Point being Divine Dragons cannot use all Dragonstones and other dragons can use multiple dragonstones in the DS remakes as well.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

When Kaga intends something, he'd tell it. Especially given all the descriptive material we have on the material of Darna and all of them depict Naga as perfectly healthy, unscarred and young. Also why are you so vehemently arguing Naga was crippled, what purpose does it serve?

One illustration. And its a human form. Of course they'll make her look pretty. That's not the strongest argument. Also, Kaga didn't exactly explain everything, given that we're having this debate.

Why are you asking me that question? I already told you, I forgot. What part of "I get so into debates that I forget the original point" did you not not get?

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That still never says the non blade parts were made by humans. Naga made the Falchion and Gotoh kept it until he gave it to Anri, at which point it already had a hilt. Everything indicates the whole blade was made by Dragons.

Look at what Owain says: "But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit."

While the blade was forged from the fang and incorporated with magical properties, the hilt and such were forged using mortal means, like normal steel and such. Meaning that through time, it can wear and break apart. I remember the point of this discussion at least. And this one is that Falchion never actually broke. The hilt did, but never the blade. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Point being Divine Dragons cannot use all Dragonstones and other dragons can use multiple dragonstones in the DS remakes as well.

Wasn't disagreeing with you here. Just saying why they wouldn't be able to use it.

[Emperor Hardin]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

One illustration. And its a human form. Of course they'll make her look pretty. That's not the strongest argument. Also, Kaga didn't exactly explain everything, given that we're having this debate.

Why are you asking me that question? I already told you, I forgot. What part of "I get so into debates that I forget the original point" did you not not get?

Look at what Owain says: "But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit."

While the blade was forged from the fang and incorporated with magical properties, the hilt and such were forged using mortal means, like normal steel and such. Meaning that through time, it can wear and break apart. I remember the point of this discussion at least. And this one is that Falchion never actually broke. The hilt did, but never the blade. 

Wasn't disagreeing with you here. Just saying why they wouldn't be able to use it.

Kaga's answers to the questions on the Miracle of Darna were indepth, if Naga was gravely wounded and weakened, he certainly would not let it go unmentioned.

Then why are you arguing it?

That still doesn't say the non Blade parts of Falchion were made by humans. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga's answers to the questions on the Miracle of Darna were indepth, if Naga was gravely wounded and weakened, he certainly would not let it go unmentioned.

But he was never asked that question. They only questioned the involvement, but never specifically got the the question regarding whether Naga was dying or anything. I kind of wanted to see if anyone was gonna ask why Naga had a tome forged instead of having another Falchion forged.

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Then why are you arguing it?

I like debates. Why do you think I've been in this argument/debate for so long? I'm enjoying this a bunch. XP

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That still doesn't say the non Blade parts of Falchion were made by humans. 

Given the scarcity of dragons, the new hilt had to have been made by humans. Also, look again at what Owain says. "Mortal work" meaning the rest of the parts were made by mortals. Given how dragons are worshipped as gods, thus immortals, that would indicate that humans like had forged the rest. I feel arguing whether the hilt was made by humans or not is a moot point, because the argument was whether or not the Falchion itself, the blade I mean, ever broke. Which it didn't. Unlike Naga's tome, that was meant to be temporary, the blade of Falchion is Eternal. Why its power is sealed is all explained during the First Exalt. 

Oh wait, that story never got made. Shit, Werdna and I really need to get back to making that story.

[Party Moth]

17 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Unless they retcon a bunch of stuff from Shadow Dragon/New/Mystery, we really can't have any Earth Dragons be part of this, since first they'll have to explain that not all Earth Dragons hold humans in contempt, then explaining that two Earth Dragons left, and then having that Naga never got involved with them despite how Divine and Earth Dragons are pretty much at odds.

Why does that seem so out of place when they've already retconned more Divine Dragons into existence? Again, as per Xane's words, the clan is effectively dead outside of the divine dragons seen in the Archanean games.

17 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, it was confirmed that Naga DIDN'T know what Loptyr was up to until almost 200 years after the Divine Dragons won the war against the Earth Dragons. She went to Jugdral after realizing that. Not sure how she got that info, but she got it.

But given how this is an issue from another continent, Xane and Gotoh probably felt there was no need to delve into that story. Even though its potentially hinted that Marth descended from Sigurd/Seliph's bloodline.

I'm well aware. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, by the time of the Archanean games, Loptyr is well within the dragons' knowledge of being an exception to the "all Earth Dragons except Medeus were sealed away" story Xane spins.  Exceptions of Earth Dragons surviving the war have been retconned in before.

Also, regarding Loptyr being inferior, here's words from Lewyn (Forseti, who participated in the war):

Lewyn: Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Naga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyrian power.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Party Moth

[RJWalker]

Manaketes being able to use different dragonstones is clearly a gameplay mechanic. The story makes it abundabtly clear that the one dragonstone is all they get. Bantu discards his dragonstone itself in his ending. If he can just use different dragonstones like he can in gameplay, then what would even be the point?

Also, trying to argue that Naga was somehow weakened or not at their prime makes no sense. As stated before, if this was the case, it would be mentioned. No, saying that it simply wasn't mentioned isn't grounds for saying your theory is true. That's just silly. Also. Naga doesn't simply die of old age or something. Xane says Naga 'ended' their life. And Naga was only 5000 years old, which is just past youth, considering 1000 year old Tiki looks like 10 year old and 3000 year old looks like 20 year old.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Ranger Jack Walker

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Party Moth said:

Why does that seem so out of place when they've already retconned more Divine Dragons into existence? Again, as per Xane's words, the clan is effectively dead outside of the divine dragons seen in the Archanean games.

Except its indicating that Duma and Mila were never part of the war with the Earth Dragons. They were exiled before the event ever occurred. And even if they did partake in the war, Xane merely said that the war brought the Divine Dragons to near extinction, but Xane and Gotoh are alive. There's always the chance other Divine Dragons might have potentially survived.

Hell, if Nowi is a Divine Dragon, then her parents, or at least one of them, is bound to be a Divine Dragon. 

5 hours ago, Party Moth said:

I'm well aware. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, by the time of the Archanean games, Loptyr is well within the dragons' knowledge of being an exception to the "all Earth Dragons except Medeus were sealed away" story Xane spins.  Exceptions of Earth Dragons surviving the war have been retconned in before.

By the time of Shadow Dragon, Loptyr was killed. His bloodline essentially no longer exists. Gotoh and Xane had no need to actually talk about Loptyr, as that was a story that's irrelevant to the current situation. Furthermore, I wanna point out that when remaking this, they mostly rearranged stuff to involve Kris, but they really didn't add a larger depth to the story beyond Kris, and kept most stuff the same from FE3, in which case, of course Loptyr wouldn't be mentioned, because he didn't exist until FE4. 

5 hours ago, Party Moth said:

Lewyn: Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Naga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyrian power.

Yes, got through an entire discussion with Hardin regarding that. 

3 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Manaketes being able to use different dragonstones is clearly a gameplay mechanic. The story makes it abundabtly clear that the one dragonstone is all they get. Bantu discards his dragonstone itself in his ending. If he can just use different dragonstones like he can in gameplay, then what would even be the point?

I never questioned that. I knew that was the case. 

3 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Also, trying to argue that Naga was somehow weakened or not at their prime makes no sense. As stated before, if this was the case, it would be mentioned. No, saying that it simply wasn't mentioned isn't grounds for saying your theory is true. That's just silly. Also. Naga doesn't simply die of old age or something. Xane says Naga 'ended' their life. And Naga was only 5000 years old, which is just past youth, considering 1000 year old Tiki looks like 10 year old and 3000 year old looks like 20 year old.

I'm not saying that my theory is 100% true. I know there's absolutely no confirmation or dialogue to really support my claim. You don't even have to go along with it. I could very well be completely wrong, and that Naga was in fact the top of her game. 

However, I'm just going by how logically it oughta be. There's no way that Naga, as leader of the Divine Dragons, could have made it through an entire war against the entirety of the Earth Dragons (save for Medeus and Loptyr) unscathed. If it brought the Divine Dragons near extinction, that means despite all their life force, they were still killed rather than going to sleep. Meaning that Naga had to have sustained injuries and wounds that would not easily heal, if ever. 

Also, that also raises the question on how she could have died. One says that she used all her remaining strength to put Tiki to sleep, yet you're telling me that even if she was in her prime, it took all her strength just to put an infant child to sleep? Even if Tiki had potential to surpass Naga, that wouldn't mean that it would take all Naga has just to put her into slumber, since Tiki was still an infant at the time.

But if through the wars and the forging of powerful weapons, her own life force had crippled, and thus she ended her life by using what's left to put Tiki to sleep. 

If you're gonna say suicide as an alternative, then that makes even LESS sense. There was no reason for Naga to try and kill herself. It makes no sense. 

[Emperor Hardin]

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except its indicating that Duma and Mila were never part of the war with the Earth Dragons. They were exiled before the event ever occurred. And even if they did partake in the war, Xane merely said that the war brought the Divine Dragons to near extinction, but Xane and Gotoh are alive. There's always the chance other Divine Dragons might have potentially survived.

Hell, if Nowi is a Divine Dragon, then her parents, or at least one of them, is bound to be a Divine Dragon. 

By the time of Shadow Dragon, Loptyr was killed. His bloodline essentially no longer exists. Gotoh and Xane had no need to actually talk about Loptyr, as that was a story that's irrelevant to the current situation. Furthermore, I wanna point out that when remaking this, they mostly rearranged stuff to involve Kris, but they really didn't add a larger depth to the story beyond Kris, and kept most stuff the same from FE3, in which case, of course Loptyr wouldn't be mentioned, because he didn't exist until FE4. 

Yes, got through an entire discussion with Hardin regarding that. 

I never questioned that. I knew that was the case. 

I'm not saying that my theory is 100% true. I know there's absolutely no confirmation or dialogue to really support my claim. You don't even have to go along with it. I could very well be completely wrong, and that Naga was in fact the top of her game. 

However, I'm just going by how logically it oughta be. There's no way that Naga, as leader of the Divine Dragons, could have made it through an entire war against the entirety of the Earth Dragons (save for Medeus and Loptyr) unscathed. If it brought the Divine Dragons near extinction, that means despite all their life force, they were still killed rather than going to sleep. Meaning that Naga had to have sustained injuries and wounds that would not easily heal, if ever. 

Also, that also raises the question on how she could have died. One says that she used all her remaining strength to put Tiki to sleep, yet you're telling me that even if she was in her prime, it took all her strength just to put an infant child to sleep? Even if Tiki had potential to surpass Naga, that wouldn't mean that it would take all Naga has just to put her into slumber, since Tiki was still an infant at the time.

But if through the wars and the forging of powerful weapons, her own life force had crippled, and thus she ended her life by using what's left to put Tiki to sleep. 

If you're gonna say suicide as an alternative, then that makes even LESS sense. There was no reason for Naga to try and kill herself. It makes no sense. 

With those kinds of retcons, you could just as easily make them Earth Dragons. IE: They left the Earth tribe and the Archanea continent before dragon degeneration started happening.

Julia still exists, so Loptyr bloodline is not dead.

And you still didn't prove that Loptyr was much weaker.

Again, why are you promoting the theory that Naga was crippled? Just because a lot of people doesn't mean, Naga had to be permanently injured especially after years of rest and when still in youth.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Salamud]

Julia doesn't have Loptyrian blood. You'd better go with Sias as a possible last Lopt.

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

With those kinds of retcons, you could just as easily make them Earth Dragons. IE: They left the Earth tribe and the Archanea continent before dragon degeneration started happening.

Again, I am personally not against this. If anything, its a good idea. However, the issue here I think is that it ultimately goes back to the second Falchion's explanation, and that it seems unlikely for Naga to give an Earth Dragon. Duma was the one originally in possession of the blade that he gave to Rudolf, so they had to try and explain why there's another Falchion. 

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Julia still exists, so Loptyr bloodline is not dead.

Its shown that Julia has Minor Fala blood and Major Naga blood, no Loptyr blood. Its more likely that Saias, Arvis' illegitimate child, that might have the Minor Loptyr blood with the Major Fala blood, but there's no confirmation in the matter, so really, its likely that Loptyr's bloodline is in fact gone. 

16 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And you still didn't prove that Loptyr was much weaker.

Again, why are you promoting the theory that Naga was crippled? Just because a lot of people doesn't mean, Naga had to be permanently injured especially after years of rest and when still in youth.

OH! That's the original reason for that discussion. Now I remember. Anyways, don't take what I'm saying to be fact, this is merely my theory, as its been the whole time.

If we go with my theory that Naga had sustained wounds that left her life force crippled at the end of the war with the dragons, and her power weakened, Naga would no longer be as strong as she used to be. Its possible that to defeat Loptyr, who's power was great as an Earth Dragon, Naga put as much power as she could in hopes to defeat him by forging her own blood pact and creating her tome. 

Had Naga been in her prime, I'd assume that she likely was stronger than Loptyr overall. 

[Salamud]

Loptyr being a character isn't a retcon. It was established that the Earth Dragons degenerated except for Medeus with a mass sealing happening. Loptyr is surely already dead by the war's end and what the Crusaders fight is an imprint of him in a book that fused with a man.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Salamud said:

Loptyr being a character isn't a retcon. It was established that the Earth Dragons degenerated except for Medeus with a mass sealing happening. Loptyr is surely already dead by the war's end and what the Crusaders fight is an imprint of him in a book that fused with a man.

It was never exactly stated what happened to Loptyr's physical form. Also, I think the interview said that Loptyr's tome was unlike the other Holy Weapons, similar to Naga and Forseti's, but still greater as Loptyr performs a full possession. So either Loptyr did die in the war with the Earth Dragon and Divine Dragon, and thus his will remains through the blood pact, or Loptyr encased all his powers to the point that he lost his physical form to become the tome to be used through the blood pact.

[Emperor Hardin]

59 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Again, I am personally not against this. If anything, its a good idea. However, the issue here I think is that it ultimately goes back to the second Falchion's explanation, and that it seems unlikely for Naga to give an Earth Dragon. Duma was the one originally in possession of the blade that he gave to Rudolf, so they had to try and explain why there's another Falchion. 

Its shown that Julia has Minor Fala blood and Major Naga blood, no Loptyr blood. Its more likely that Saias, Arvis' illegitimate child, that might have the Minor Loptyr blood with the Major Fala blood, but there's no confirmation in the matter, so really, its likely that Loptyr's bloodline is in fact gone. 

OH! That's the original reason for that discussion. Now I remember. Anyways, don't take what I'm saying to be fact, this is merely my theory, as its been the whole time.

If we go with my theory that Naga had sustained wounds that left her life force crippled at the end of the war with the dragons, and her power weakened, Naga would no longer be as strong as she used to be. Its possible that to defeat Loptyr, who's power was great as an Earth Dragon, Naga put as much power as she could in hopes to defeat him by forging her own blood pact and creating her tome. 

Had Naga been in her prime, I'd assume that she likely was stronger than Loptyr overall. 

Naga gave the highly important position of guarding the Altar, perhaps the most essential role to Medeus, an Earth Dragon. Also before Echoes there was no indication that Valentia's Falchion was made from a Divine Dragon fang.

Nothing in the lore indicates she didn't get Loptyr blood. Loptyr himself said he could return.

Why are you assuming Loptyr is so much weaker then Naga to begin with? Why do you keep proposing the theory Naga was crippled in the prime of youth?

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga gave the highly important position of guarding the Altar, perhaps the most essential role to Medeus, an Earth Dragon. Also before Echoes there was no indication that Valentia's Falchion was made from a Divine Dragon fang.

Yes, but the situation wouldn't match up for giving Falchion to Duma if Duma's an Earth Dragon. Medeus I can potentially understand. He himself is an Earth Dragon, and thus he should watch over his own tribe. 

Yes, like you said, Kaga wanted to make Falchion and Gradivus be everywhere before he changed his mind. However, now we need a legit reason why there's a second weapon called Falchion, and thus they HAVE to make an explanation. Or at least that's what I'm assuming their mindset is working by. They need an explanation for the 2nd Falchion, which unlike Gradivus, holds an important role in Archanea and Valentia. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Nothing in the lore indicates she didn't get Loptyr blood. Loptyr himself said he could return.

The lore shows the bloodlines. And the interview and games explains how bloodlines worked. Julia inherited Fala and Naga blood, but not Loptyr. Also, Loptyr isn't the first one to declare that he would return. Medeus said so as well, and there's no indication he remained true with the 3000 years that had passed by the time of Awakening, nor did Medeus in the 2000 years. 

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Why are you assuming Loptyr is so much weaker then Naga to begin with? Why do you keep proposing the theory Naga was crippled in the prime of youth?

My theory, that I've based around logic. My logic could be wrong for all I know, but I want you to actually think about it. Loptyr was confirmed to already accept the war with the Divine Dragons was lost, and thus accepted the blood pact with bishop Galle to try and exact vengeance on humanity. If he sealed every ounce of power and will into the tome from the blood pact, its likely that Loptyr is able to unleash all his power through the tome. 

But Naga likely wasn't as strong as before by the time she found out about Loptyr, and possibly couldn't forge another Falchion to stop Loptyr. So she instead used a blood pact to forge a magical tome to contain her power to try and use that to best Loptyr. However, Naga wasn't like Loptyr, she didn't want to encase all her power and will into the tome, because it would subjugate the human will behind it, so likely she even limited how much power she put in. In which case, Naga's power still besting Loptyr's full power shows that Naga was still superior to Loptyr. 

So my theory is that Loptyr and Naga weren't truly equals.

Also, speaking of Loptyr, exactly what kind of relations with the Earth Dragons did Loptyr have? Was Loptyr the leader? The most powerful? There was never any mention what kind of position he held in the tribe, and we know there are royal families in dragon tribes given how Naga is the King/leader of the Divine Dragons and Medeus is the prince of the Earth Dragons. Positions within the dragon tribes generally seem to indicate the power they hold, as Naga was leader because she was the most powerful, so likely royalty tend to hold the most power. Loptyr wasn't mentioned to be royalty within the Earth Dragons. 

In which case, if Loptyr wasn't truly a member of royalty or the most powerful, it stands even more that Naga and Loptyr aren't completely equals. 

[Emperor Hardin]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, but the situation wouldn't match up for giving Falchion to Duma if Duma's an Earth Dragon. Medeus I can potentially understand. He himself is an Earth Dragon, and thus he should watch over his own tribe. 

Yes, like you said, Kaga wanted to make Falchion and Gradivus be everywhere before he changed his mind. However, now we need a legit reason why there's a second weapon called Falchion, and thus they HAVE to make an explanation. Or at least that's what I'm assuming their mindset is working by. They need an explanation for the 2nd Falchion, which unlike Gradivus, holds an important role in Archanea and Valentia. 

The lore shows the bloodlines. And the interview and games explains how bloodlines worked. Julia inherited Fala and Naga blood, but not Loptyr. Also, Loptyr isn't the first one to declare that he would return. Medeus said so as well, and there's no indication he remained true with the 3000 years that had passed by the time of Awakening, nor did Medeus in the 2000 years. 

My theory, that I've based around logic. My logic could be wrong for all I know, but I want you to actually think about it. Loptyr was confirmed to already accept the war with the Divine Dragons was lost, and thus accepted the blood pact with bishop Galle to try and exact vengeance on humanity. If he sealed every ounce of power and will into the tome from the blood pact, its likely that Loptyr is able to unleash all his power through the tome. 

But Naga likely wasn't as strong as before by the time she found out about Loptyr, and possibly couldn't forge another Falchion to stop Loptyr. So she instead used a blood pact to forge a magical tome to contain her power to try and use that to best Loptyr. However, Naga wasn't like Loptyr, she didn't want to encase all her power and will into the tome, because it would subjugate the human will behind it, so likely she even limited how much power she put in. In which case, Naga's power still besting Loptyr's full power shows that Naga was still superior to Loptyr. 

So my theory is that Loptyr and Naga weren't truly equals.

Also, speaking of Loptyr, exactly what kind of relations with the Earth Dragons did Loptyr have? Was Loptyr the leader? The most powerful? There was never any mention what kind of position he held in the tribe, and we know there are royal families in dragon tribes given how Naga is the King/leader of the Divine Dragons and Medeus is the prince of the Earth Dragons. Positions within the dragon tribes generally seem to indicate the power they hold, as Naga was leader because she was the most powerful, so likely royalty tend to hold the most power. Loptyr wasn't mentioned to be royalty within the Earth Dragons. 

In which case, if Loptyr wasn't truly a member of royalty or the most powerful, it stands even more that Naga and Loptyr aren't completely equals. 

Medeus wouldn't be given the Falchion because Naga would not want him to have any help doing his job in safeguarding humanity is what you're saying? That doesn't make much sense.

Gradivus isn't exactly unimportant either, also Falchion had a backstory in Gaiden already. It was a sword Rudolf sealed Mila in.

A remake could say "Naga was really crippled in the Miracle of Darna despite not showing any signs and Loptyr was way weaker then her", but it would be a retcon and would only succeed in annoying fans.

How do you know Loptyr isn't a member of royalty or that a dragon's strength is based solely on royal blood.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Medeus wouldn't be given the Falchion because Naga would not want him to have any help doing his job in safeguarding humanity is what you're saying? That doesn't make much sense.

I'm not referring to Medeus here. I'm referring to Duma. I'm saying the situations are not the same. Medeus is ordered to guard the seal with the Earth Dragons. Okay, that's great and all. He's the Earth Dragon Prince, so he should watch over his Tribe.

But in the case of Duma (if we go with him being an Earth Dragon), why would Naga give Falchion to an Earth Dragon, and an exiled one at that? Furthermore, if this happened before the war, then Duma being an Earth Dragon in possession of Falchion makes even less sense, because for all intents and purposes, Duma wouldn't just allow his tribe to be destroyed and sealed away, even if they did exile him. 

Making an exiled Divine Dragon possessing Falchion would make a bit more logical sense. 

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Gradivus isn't exactly unimportant either, also Falchion had a backstory in Gaiden already. It was a sword Rudolf sealed Mila in.

Not unimportant, but certainly not plot related. Gradivus being one of the Three Regalia is unique, and there being another Gradivus is strange. But the point that you just said about Falchion is my entire point. Falchion holds major plot relevance. The plot moved because of Falchion, where Falchion was in Duma's possession, given to Rudolf, and used to seal Mila. 

Now that we have a remake, we need to explain the very existence of this second Falchion, especially because its the same verse as Archanea. 

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

A remake could say "Naga was really crippled in the Miracle of Darna despite not showing any signs and Loptyr was way weaker then her", but it would be a retcon and would only succeed in annoying fans.

Depends on how you view it, but I'm just throwing in my theory based on how much info has been confirmed and gathered. I could be wrong, but for now, there's nothing directly saying that Naga was truly at the peak of her power. Illustrations and the dialogue are vague at best. She's called the most powerful Divine Dragon, and most likely the most powerful dragon in general, so even at her weakest, she was more powerful than others. 

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

How do you know Loptyr isn't a member of royalty or dragon strength is based solely on royal blood.

I don't. Once again, I'm taking the info from interviews and dialogue I already know and basing a theory on it that could very well be wrong.

Look at how we see it. Naga is the Divine Dragon King, and is the most powerful dragon around. Tiki is Naga's daughter and is hinted to have the potential to surpass Naga. Medeus is the Earth Dragon Prince and he was shown to be absurdly strong, easily wiping out an army singlehandedly and it was only by Anri using Falchion that he was defeated, and Gotoh even says that without Falchion, Medeus is impossible to beat. Then Medeus became a Dark Dragon and was also called the Dragon Emperor at that point I believe, and it took Marth having Falchion and the Shield of Seals to defeat him again. 

The powers are all hinted to be immense and great for them particularly, and they in particular are royalty. Loptyr was only stated to be an Earth Dragon, but they never specified if he had any relations to the royal family or was hailed to be an incredibly powerful Earth Dragon. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm not referring to Medeus here. I'm referring to Duma. I'm saying the situations are not the same. Medeus is ordered to guard the seal with the Earth Dragons. Okay, that's great and all. He's the Earth Dragon Prince, so he should watch over his Tribe.

But in the case of Duma (if we go with him being an Earth Dragon), why would Naga give Falchion to an Earth Dragon, and an exiled one at that? Furthermore, if this happened before the war, then Duma being an Earth Dragon in possession of Falchion makes even less sense, because for all intents and purposes, Duma wouldn't just allow his tribe to be destroyed and sealed away, even if they did exile him. 

Making an exiled Divine Dragon possessing Falchion would make a bit more logical sense. 

Not unimportant, but certainly not plot related. Gradivus being one of the Three Regalia is unique, and there being another Gradivus is strange. But the point that you just said about Falchion is my entire point. Falchion holds major plot relevance. The plot moved because of Falchion, where Falchion was in Duma's possession, given to Rudolf, and used to seal Mila. 

Now that we have a remake, we need to explain the very existence of this second Falchion, especially because its the same verse as Archanea. 

Depends on how you view it, but I'm just throwing in my theory based on how much info has been confirmed and gathered. I could be wrong, but for now, there's nothing directly saying that Naga was truly at her power. Illustrations and the dialogue are vague at best. She's called the most powerful Divine Dragon, and most likely the most powerful dragon in general, so even at her weakest, she was more powerful than others. 

I don't. Once again, I'm taking the info from interviews and dialogue I already know and basing a theory on it that could very well be wrong.

Look at how we see it. Naga is the Divine Dragon King, and is the most powerful dragon around. Tiki is Naga's daughter and is hinted to have the potential to surpass Naga. Medeus is the Earth Dragon Prince and he was shown to be absurdly strong, easily wiping out an army singlehandedly and it was only by Anri using Falchion that he was defeated, and Gotoh even says that without Falchion, Medeus is impossible to beat. Then Medeus became a Dark Dragon and was also called the Dragon Emperor at that point I believe, and it took Marth having Falchion and the Shield of Seals to defeat him again. 

The powers are all hinted to be immense and great for them particularly, and they in particular are royalty. Loptyr was only stated to be an Earth Dragon, but they never specified if he had any relations to the royal family or was hailed to be an incredibly powerful Earth Dragon. 

Same reason Naga gave the Falchion to him in Echoes, a backup in case of degeneration. Also Duma was out of contact with the other dragons as established in Echoes, so again he could easily be Earth.

Again, not it doesn't make any sense for Duma to be a Divine Dragon.

The original version had the sword only special because Mila was sealed in it.

As mentioned, all material from Kaga depicts her as healthy. Such a retcon would also be a slap in the face to the plot in Genealogy of the Holy War and would be universally loathed by fans of the game. Nothing good would come from it.

All descriptions of Loptyr state he was abnormally powerful.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Salamud]

Naga and Loptyr never actually fought each-other dragon-to-dragon in GotHW's backstory. From all talk, it's more that two men fused with imprints of the dragons fought-each-other with the dragons themselves long gone.

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Same reason Naga gave the Falchion to him in Echoes, a backup in case of degeneration. Also Duma was out of contact with the other dragons as established in Echoes, so again he could easily be Earth.

Except there already WAS a Falchion in Archanea, remember? That was already the backup, but it was meant for humans to defend themselves. If anything, Naga might not have completely trusted Medeus, and had Falchion fashioned so that when a human takes it, they can defend themselves. 

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again, not it doesn't make any sense for Duma to be a Divine Dragon.

The original version had the sword only special because Mila was sealed in it.

It actually makes more sense for Duma to be a Divine Dragon than an Earth Dragon in the case of explaining Falchion. And bringing up the elemental issue will only be a loop, because we still haven't cracked that case.

Yes. That flew well enough in the original Gaiden. Not anymore in Echoes. It makes no sense to both old and new fans for there to be a second weapon called Falchion, when the famous one should be the Falchion forged by Naga. Maybe the older fans are able to be more lenient with it, but the only reason its called Falchion originally was cause Kaga wanted there to be weapons called that in every game as you said, and only changed his mind later. But that's a poor reason to exist in the story. The writers needed to come up with a much more logical reason as to why there's a second Falchion. 

However, it makes little sense as to how Falchion in Archanea and Valentia to be the same, since the time between each is very little, given how Camus became Zeke in FE2, and then Sirius in FE3/12. So the only thing they can come up with is to have it be explained that Falchion was made for Duma even before by Naga, and Duma was an exiled Divine Dragon. 

Sure, its a tad annoying, but it's a better explanation as to why there's a Falchion rather than a poor writer choice to simply want the weapons to just be called the same. 

25 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As mentioned, all material from Kaga depicts her as healthy. Such a retcon would also be a slap in the face to the plot in Genealogy of the Holy War and would be universally loathed by fans of the game. Nothing good would come from it.

The illustrations and dialogue like I said are vague.

All they depicted was Naga arriving to help in the illustration. That doesn't exactly look crystal clear to know that Naga was at the prime of her power. And dialogue from the game and the interviews were nothing more than explaining Naga's power and reason for being there. None needed or even considered to say that Naga was weakened.

Maybe it wouldn't. But for all we know, maybe they'll come up with a BETTER explanation and fill in loose ends. Maybe they'll even disprove my theory entirely and that Naga WAS in fact still in the prime of her power.

Like I said before, you don't have to accept my theory as fact. It isn't a fact, merely my own opinion based on stuff that I know. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

All descriptions of Loptyr state he was abnormally powerful.

That's purely on the case that he's an Earth Dragon, who are already considered to be very strong, rivaling the Divine Dragon. But there was never any mention he was very unique or so powerful that he's unique even for the Earth Dragons. All that was mentioned and confirmed is that he's from the Earth Tribe, and that's it. So no special mention that he's far more unique (beyond the whole blood pact thing) and no mention of having any royal lineage, there's no special understanding on how great Loptyr's power is that could be related to other Earth Dragons. 

Going with the idea that the Miracle of Darna was not 12 Dragons that were solely from the Divine Tribe, but rather was a combination that also came from the Fire, Ice, and Mage Tribe (maybe Wyvern too), they also wouldn't stand a chance against Loptyr, purely because Earth Dragons are naturally superior and can only be bested by Divine Dragons. 

Also, even if we go with that Forseti is a Divine Dragon but he can't beat Loptyr, keep in mind that Forseti was mentioned to be a very young dragon, so its very likely he wasn't as powerful as Loptyr in that regard. 

[Emperor Hardin]

31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except there already WAS a Falchion in Archanea, remember? That was already the backup, but it was meant for humans to defend themselves. If anything, Naga might not have completely trusted Medeus, and had Falchion fashioned so that when a human takes it, they can defend themselves. 

It actually makes more sense for Duma to be a Divine Dragon than an Earth Dragon in the case of explaining Falchion. And bringing up the elemental issue will only be a loop, because we still haven't cracked that case.

Yes. That flew well enough in the original Gaiden. Not anymore in Echoes. It makes no sense to both old and new fans for there to be a second weapon called Falchion, when the famous one should be the Falchion forged by Naga. Maybe the older fans are able to be more lenient with it, but the only reason its called Falchion originally was cause Kaga wanted there to be weapons called that in every game as you said, and only changed his mind later. But that's a poor reason to exist in the story. The writers needed to come up with a much more logical reason as to why there's a second Falchion. 

However, it makes little sense as to how Falchion in Archanea and Valentia to be the same, since the time between each is very little, given how Camus became Zeke in FE2, and then Sirius in FE3/12. So the only thing they can come up with is to have it be explained that Falchion was made for Duma even before by Naga, and Duma was an exiled Divine Dragon. 

Sure, its a tad annoying, but it's a better explanation as to why there's a Falchion rather than a poor writer choice to simply want the weapons to just be called the same. 

The illustrations and dialogue like I said are vague.

All they depicted was Naga arriving to help in the illustration. That doesn't exactly look crystal clear to know that Naga was at the prime of her power. And dialogue from the game and the interviews were nothing more than explaining Naga's power and reason for being there. None needed or even considered to say that Naga was weakened.

Maybe it wouldn't. But for all we know, maybe they'll come up with a BETTER explanation and fill in loose ends. Maybe they'll even disprove my theory entirely and that Naga WAS in fact still in the prime of her power.

Like I said before, you don't have to accept my theory as fact. It isn't a fact, merely my own opinion based on stuff that I know. 

That's purely on the case that he's an Earth Dragon, who are already considered to be very strong, rivaling the Divine Dragon. But there was never any mention he was very unique or so powerful that he's unique even for the Earth Dragons. All that was mentioned and confirmed is that he's from the Earth Tribe, and that's it. So no special mention that he's far more unique (beyond the whole blood pact thing) and no mention of having any royal lineage, there's no special understanding on how great Loptyr's power is that could be related to other Earth Dragons. 

Going with the idea that the Miracle of Darna was not 12 Dragons that were solely from the Divine Tribe, but rather was a combination that also came from the Fire, Ice, and Mage Tribe (maybe Wyvern too), they also wouldn't stand a chance against Loptyr, purely because Earth Dragons are naturally superior and can only be bested by Divine Dragons. 

Also, even if we go with that Forseti is a Divine Dragon but he can't beat Loptyr, keep in mind that Forseti was mentioned to be a very young dragon, so its very likely he wasn't as powerful as Loptyr in that regard. 

My point being if there were other dragons going to another continent, what makes you sure Naga would be a bigot and not give them a Falchion if they were Earth Dragons. Also there's no evidence at all that Naga expected Medeus to turn against humanity.

I already mentioned how Duma being a Divine Dragons makes less sense and the Valentian Falchion explanation in Echoes didn't need to exist. Again there's no reason why Naga would not give a Falchion just because they were Earth Dragons.

And yes, it is true that Divine Dragons are associated with Light and Divine power, they represent Sky and Heaven/Light just as Earth Dragons represent Earth and Hell/Shadow.

I wouldn't exactly that a better explanation.

Kaga describes Naga and their feelings towards Jugdral and Forsetti very well, all of which depict Naga as healthy and in their prime. That picture again shows Naga as young and healthy. If Kaga intended something like that, he'd show or describe it in his vivid interviews.

Forsetti's descriptions also state he was out of the ordinary and a worthy match for Naga, as does all the descriptions of their feud in the game.

Also based off Naga, its likely Forseti was older then her.

Again the retcon you keep proposing would only make fans angry.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin