Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well, is she good or not? And please, try not to use your personal experiences. I want to know what you think of her, but not how good/bad/average you got her to be sometimes. I'll give my view on her later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canas is back Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 good, if you can get her past that first bump when she is really weak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Her growths are nothing special. She'd be a pretty terrible General. The only use I can see with her is as a Paladin, and there are better choices for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunny: spider bitten Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 All three trainees are garbage because they're growth fueled messes with average growths and in need of 9 extra levels. Someone will say Ross is good and Ewan is better than Knoll, but Garcia is better and Knoll is crap as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I had to drop her in my HM run because I couldn't keep her alive on the Pirate Ship chapter... I believe she makes a better General than anything else, though. Either that, or Paladin. I think her growths fit better towards a Paladin than anything else... Or even a third tier Super Recruit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunny: spider bitten Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Her growths do set her off as a bit more of a Paladin, but the bonuses for General and even Great Knight are so well stacked that it mostly offsets her growths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 She is pretty good as a Paladin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Great Knight > Paladin -_- Amelia's better off as a Great Knight. Edited October 24, 2008 by Tino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Great Knight > Paladin -_-Amelia's better off as a Great Knight. O okay. I never promoted Amelia into Great Knight so I don't know how good she is. What makes her better as a Great Knight than a Paladin? Edited October 24, 2008 by Luxord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Mainly the better bonuses she receives from promoting. And also that she'll have an easier time keeping up with Duessel and Franz (her supports, who are both Great Knights). Her extra movement as a Paladin is useless anyway if she goes too fast for Duessel and Franz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandmanccl Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well, Franz can just as easily be a paladin as well. The classes are both so equal, it hardly matters in the long run. +2 movement or slightly better promotion gains (+2 HP, +1 def, +1 con), axes, and a weakness to armorslayer/hammers? It's pretty much a toss-up in my books. That said, I still say she's best as a general. I don't know how people can say she'd make a bad general because I think it's the best fit for her. General and Great Knight both have a speed cap of 25 so it's not like you can really get a whole lot out of what is usually her best stat. Knight -> General has the best promotional gains for her as they fix her problem stats better (knight has +1 HP, -1 skill, -1 speed, +2 def, -2 res, +4 con compared to cavalier; general has +1 strength, +2 skill, +1 def, +1 res, +1 con compared to Great Knight). Her worst stat, defense, will still get pretty high (higher than most other units you're getting as the only ones with better growths are Seth, Gerik, Gilliam, Ephraim and Duessel and besides, Generals randomly don't take any damage anyway because of their skill. Downside is that it's the least mobile. I think she's one of the better units in the game. She's got pretty all around good stat gains (not counting Myrrh with her broken ass stat-gains and the creature campaign folk, the average gains are: HP=68.7%, Str/Mag=42.6%, Skl=40.6%, Spd=44.5%, Lck=39.2%, Def=24.1%, Res=30.1%... I should probably recalculate the averages separating magic users and weapon-triangle folk, though) and an extra 9 levels to gain. She joins early enough to raise her, and there's an extra bit of satisfaction associated with the trainees that you just can't find with a lot of other guys. As for her support and support options, no complaints from me. Thunder works great for her because she's fairly likely to crit for a general/gk/paladin, and adds a lot of defensive capabilities. Neimi is a rather good archer unit and you guys already know my fondness for general/archer teams. Duessel is one of the best tanks in the game in the off chance you're not already using Gilliam or Seth, and anima affinity is just down-right hax. She's probably Duessel's best support option, now that I think about it, because I find Cormag is better off with Tana A simply because fliers work great in tandem, Knoll isn't the most stellar unit in the game, and Ephraim's got a hundred billion different options so he'll probably have an A rank with someone before the Deuce even joins. Ewan and Ross, well, you likely won't be using ALL THREE in any given run but in case you are, any two of them works pretty well with the other once you raise them up. Neither will be very powerful at any given time so you can milk lots and lots and lots of experience out of enemies, both raising up pretty quick if you do so. Ross is the better unit out of the two, though, and is less of a liability by the time Amelia joins. Then there's Franz, who is one of the better horseman in the game with his ridiculous speed gains for a cavalier. If you want to stick her on a horse, he's your best bet for her support option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Woot for tl;dr warning! Note: This might look a bit unorganized, with many arguments mixed. I'm sorry if it indeed is unorganized. Amelia joins in Chapter 9 as a level 1 Recruit. 1/0/0 Amelia w/ Slim Lance 8 Atk, 4 AS, 94 Hit, 2 Crit -- 16 HP, 14 Avoid, 2 Def, 3 Res Of course, she can also switch to a Javelin to get 0 AS and 74 Hit, just to get some 1~2 range. Indeed, when looking at this, it's fair to say that Amelia sucks. And honestly, I won't deny it. Amelia is likely your worst unit when she joins. She sucks massively. There's nothing that can be done about it, and comparisons with other characters are not necessary. The way it is now, not using Amelia > using Amelia. However, the same is true of many other characters. There are many other characters of which you can say that not using them > using them. Some examples: Ewan, Knoll, Syrene, Marisa, Rennac, Dozla, L'Arachel, Innes, Neimi, Saleh, Tana and Myrrh. And then I even didn't mention all of them. What matters is this: Amelia is horrible when she joins, but excellent later on. During the later chapters, she is fully comparable to Franz, with less Atk and Con, but more Crit and a ton more Avoid. There are many characters that are never comparably to arguably the second/third best character in the game (Franz). Amelia is one of the few characters who can say this. You will obviously bring up the fact that Amelia is horrible upon joining, and is not comparable to Franz at that time. Seriously, don't bother, as I've pointed it out myself already. However, it's not like Amelia remains like this or becomes anything worse, not to mention that she's the one who grows faster than anyone because of her low level. And Amelia is one of your best characters in the game in the later chapters (from the start of chapter 14~15 or so), which have many more enemies than the enemies in the first 1/3 of the game, and therefore have much more weight than the chapters in which she "sucks". Also, although it's probably a minor and very random point, Amelia needing a promotion item doesn't matter at all. This game lacks a Funds rank, which actually devalues the money you obtain. And I'd like to address some other points as well, obviously. Let's look at join-time Amelia's durability. She can be exposed to one enemy at most, if any at all, while most of your other characters can be exposed to three or possibly four. In the later chapters, Amelia can be exposed to > six attacks because of her good Def/Avo/HP, while other characters (like Dozla, L'Arachel, Neimi, etc.) can be exposed to < three~four. Looking at her join-time offense, she's unable to one-round anything, while most of your other characters can one-round at least some enemies and deal damage to others. In the later chapters, Amelia can one-round quite a lot of things, while many other characters can only one-round very few enemies. And like I said, the later chapters have much more weight than the early chapters, due to the higher amounts of enemies you actually face. So many characters have a point in the game where they're horrible. Amelia, however, also has a time in which she's an excellent character, being comparable to Franz, while only a few characters have a period in which they're excellent. Those characters are Seth, Colm, Franz, Ephraim Route Ephraim and Moulder, and that's it. Amelia is one of the six people who is excellent during a certain period, which is awesome. Amelia having a period of being terrible weighs much less because there are many characters which are terrible at some point. I expect some argument against her low level. That's why I will also cover that. The fact that you have to distribute kills evenly fails. It's not even a fact. You're better off distributing the kills in the way that gives you the most Experience. In other words, giving kills to lower leveled units > giving kills to higher leveled units, and Amelia is your lowest leveled unit when she joins. As a result, the level gap between Amelia and the rest of team closes very quickly. "Amelia needs a lot of babying!!!" It's only babying when you sacrify efficiency in order to give Amelia some additional kills. However, there are more than enough occasions (spelling?) where Amelia can and will take said kills over your other characters without losing any efficiency. If an enemy is left with 1 HP, anyone can kill it. In FE8, worse combat abilities slow down the process of beating a chapter, but don't stop it at all. Amelia's much higher Experience gains cancel out with her worse combat abilities in her early chapters. So she's just getting more of those sexy kills than any other units, making her grow a lot faster than anyone. "But she sucks so badly when she has just joined!!!" True. And it's also a fact that she can't grow while she's 10/0/0. This means you will want to level her to said level as quick as possible. And although it might be a hassle, but it's best to this by the end of Chapter 9. Why? Because otherwise Amelia will be much more of a negative to your team in the following chapters. Overall, it's the better option to level her to 10/0/0 in Chapter 9. Amelia has only 4 Mov for some time and is one-rounded from time to time when she's a Recruit. However, she has 6~7 (Great Knight~Cavalier) Mov and is not one-rounded far longer, so she's actually quite a flexible unit, unlike most people think. Now, let's take a look at Amelia's supports. Unlike many people think, Amelia actually has pretty decent supports. She'll support Duessel, because Amelia/Duessel is faster than Cormag/Duessel. As a result, Amelia/Duessel > Cormag/Duessel. And Franz will be her B support. Sure, they have other options, but said "other options" can be switched off for another unit, leaving a slot open for Amelia. It's also fairly fast, and both characters can keep up with eachother very well. Amelia will be a Level 10/7/0 Cavalier at the start of Chapter 12. Let's just see how well she fares against the enemies there. 10/8/0 Cavalier Amelia w/ Iron Lance (Sword), C Franz 17 (15) Atk, 12 AS -- 27 HP, 40 Avoid, 8 Def, 8 Res 15/0 Cavalier Franz w/ Iron Lance (Sword), B Forde/C Amelia 22 (20) Atk, 14 AS -- 32 HP, 37 Avoid, 12 Def, 6 Res Level 11 Cavalier w/ Iron Sword 14 Atk, 8 AS, 105 Hit -- 29 HP, 8 Def Amelia two-rounds, while she is six-rounded at ~51% true hit. Yes, she's indeed six-rounded, which is actually quite good. Level 10 Archer w/ Iron Bow 14 Atk, 8 AS, 101 Hit -- 25 HP, 4 Def Amelia effectively one-rounds. She is five-rounded at ~70% true hit. Level 11 Pirate w/ Hand Axe 16 Atk, 8 AS, 73 Hit -- 30 HP, 4 Def Amelia two-rounds. She is four-rounded at ~7% true hit. In other words, she doesn't die. It's the same for Fighters. Level 11 Mage w/ Fire 13 Atk, 7 AS, 105 Hit -- 23 HP, 4 Def Amelia once again one-rounds, while she is six-rounded at ~76% true hit. Amelia is actually better against this guy than Franz. Level 11 Shaman w/ Flux 15 Atk, 5 AS, 91 Hit -- 24 HP, 3 Def Amelia one-rounds and is four-rounded at ~52% true hit. Again, Amelia is better against this fella than Franz. Level 11 Mercenary w/ Steel Sword 18 Atk, 11 AS, 103 Hit -- 28 HP, 6 Def Amelia three-rounds this time, but she can switch to a Steel Lance to two-round and still not get doubled. She gets three-rounded at ~47% true hit. As you see, Amelia has pretty dang sexy offense, since she's one-rounding or two-rounding everything. Franz has better durability against physical enemies, but Amelia is better against the magic users, of which there are plenty in this chapter. Amelia is indeed comparable to Franz already. Let's take a look at some Chapter 15 stats. Amelia will be a Level 10/20/1 Great Knight by now. 10/20/1 Great Knight Amelia w/ Iron Axe (Lance) (Steel Sword), A Duessel/B Franz 25 (24) (25) Atk, 19 AS -- 37 HP, 78 Avoid, 17 Def, 16 Res 20/5 Great Knight Franz w/ Iron Axe (Steel Lance) (Steel Sword), A Forde/B Amelia 30 (32) (30) Atk, 20 AS -- 41 HP, 56 Avoid, 17 Def, 10 Res Level 13 Wyvern Rider w/ Steel Lance 24 Atk, 6 AS, 90 Hit -- 32 HP, 10 Def Amelia one-rounds and faces 0% true hit. In other words, she can't die. Franz actually can be hit. Woot! Amelia actually beats Franz here! Level 13 Pegasus Knight w/ Steel Lance 19 Atk, 3 AS, 92 Hit -- 24 HP, 5 Def Amelia one-rounds and faces 0% true hit again. Franz loses again, no matter how small his loss is. Level 14 Mercenary w/ Iron Sword 15 Atk, 13 AS, 120 Hit -- 30 HP, 7 Def Amelia one-rounds and takes a sweet 0 damage. Auto-win. Level 13 Myrmidon w/ Steel Sword 18 Atk, 13 AS, 107 Hit -- 26 HP, 4 Def Amelia one-rounds and takes that sexy 0 damage yet again. Awesome. Level 13 Fighter w/ Steel Axe 24 Atk, 4 AS, 80 Hit -- 33 HP, 4 Def Amelia one-rounds and can't be hit. Franz can. Amelia wins. The same goes for the lonely Brigand. Level 13 Mage w/ Thunder 17 Atk, 8 AS, 98 Hit -- 25 HP, 4 Def Amelia one-rounds and is thirtyseven-rounded (massive lol) at ~8% true hit. Franz is actually six-rounded at ~36% true hit, so Amelia is quite a big better here. Level 13 Shaman w/ Flux 17 Atk, 6 AS, 93 Hit -- 22 HP, 3 Def Amelia OHKOs, and is thirtyseven-rounded (more massive lol) at ~1% true hit. Franz is six-rounded at ~28% true hit. Amelia is better again. Level 14 Cavalier w/ Steel Lance 21 Atk, 6 AS, 90 Hit -- 32 HP, 8 Def Amelia one-rounds and doesn't get hit. Franz can get hit. Level 4 Ranger w/ Steel Sword 21 Atk, 15 AS, 106 Hit -- 36 HP, 9 Def Amelia two-rounds and is thirteen-rounded at ~4% true hit. Level 4 Paladin w/ Steel Sword 21 Atk, 11 AS, 100 Hit -- 39 HP, 10 Def Amelia two-rounds and is thirteen-rounded at ~1% true hit. As you see, Amelia is easily equal to Franz, if not slightly better. And guess what? Franz is one of the best offensive and most durable characters, yet he gets beaten by Amelia against those nasty magic users and some other enemies because Amelia can't get hit. 10/20/14 Amelia w/ Silver Lance, A Duessel/B Franz 35 Atk, 23 AS -- 45 HP, 92 Avoid, 21 Def, 18 Res 10/20/15 Franz w/ Silver Lance, A Forde/B Amelia 40 Atk, 24 AS -- 49 HP, 68 Avoid, 19 Def, 11 Res Amelia is downright beating the crap out of Franz right now because of much better durability thanks to that sexy Avoid and Resistance, as well as HP and Defense. She doubles almost everything, if not everything and with that kills. 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sandmanccl Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Hey Tino. Hell froze over. We're agreeing on something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 I think that's the first time now :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Holy shit, you two. I'm not going to read all of that, but yeah, I'll agree that Amelia is a hell of a pain to raise, especially in Ephraim's Hard Mode. I never bothered in the end. Dropped her like she's hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral "Bull" Halsey Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Don't forget weapon triangle control. They're the best thing Great Knights have over Paladins in this game. Amelia is indeed better off as a Great Knight along with Kyle, Forde, Franz, and Gilliam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandmanccl Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I just don't see Great Knight as superior to General, man. General has better promotion gains, better caps, and only sacrifices a single movement. Oh, and weakness to Horseslayers (which happen commonly enough in the Creature Campaign depending on the map to be at least a super mega remote concern.) Considering a mounted unit with only 6 speed is pretty much just as slow because of how badly they lose speed going through trees and the fact they just cannot possibly traverse over hills while Generals can, movement between the two is comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Wow Tino you sure written alot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Arc Chaos Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Meh, shes okay. She's actually the only trainee I dont really use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 I just don't see Great Knight as superior to General, man. General has better promotion gains, better caps, and only sacrifices a single movement. Oh, and weakness to Horseslayers (which happen commonly enough in the Creature Campaign depending on the map to be at least a super mega remote concern.) Considering a mounted unit with only 6 speed is pretty much just as slow because of how badly they lose speed going through trees and the fact they just cannot possibly traverse over hills while Generals can, movement between the two is comparable. Only 5 Movement when all other characters have 6~8 is pretty bad, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Meh, shes okay. She's actually the only trainee I dont really use. I used her once as a Paladin. She was awesome! Though I rather use her than Ewan. Ewan I find a pain to level up, though he is useful as a Mage Knight if you need a healer. Out of all the trainee, I use Ross. Since he comes early in the game and makes a good berserker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Paladin/GK for regular playthroughs. General with Boots for Creature campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I disagree with your useless characters list. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsalmon Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Great Knight > Paladin -_-Amelia's better off as a Great Knight. Amelia gets 8 Movement out of Paladin, which beats end-game use of Steel Axes. Amelia sucks, but she's good end-game as Recruit<Cavalier<Paladin. Edited October 24, 2008 by Swordsalmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I disagree with your useless characters list. :( Sorry what do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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