NoA Announces Echoes DLC

[VincentASM]

18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

One thing I find interesting is the overclasses are (apparently) not in the game's data. I guess this situation will be the same as Awakening where if you take a cart with overclass units to a 3DS without the proper DLC, they will appear as "Outrealm Units" or something.

Hmm, the odd thing is that I don't see any fail safes. It's possible I'm not looking hard enough though.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Not spending a single dollar on DLC for this game. It won't be worth it. It is also overpriced and just plain wrong to things they way there are with this.

I'm with Thane. When one looks at buying DLC, ask yourself "Is this a good value- could I not derive more entertainment from buying another game/something else?" In this case, like with Fates's DLC and much of Awakening's, the answer is totally yes for me.

[Galactaray]

Not too sure what to think about this, it's overly expensive and some of it isn't worth it. Are the 3rd tier classes really worth 2EUR, I don't think so. Though the deliverance chapters looks interesting indeed and looks like there's been some care in them. Probably buying Cipher DLC for the lols and just incase they release the cards in Europe anytime soon. I wouldn't be surprised if they do, they see there's an interest in FE in the West due to Heroes.

I did sort of buy all the path+DLC for fates and some weren't that worth it either though splitting the grinding maps up seems a bit cheap for just a map, experience maps may be worth it as they feature dungeons but otherwise not sure.

Unfortunately I'm a sucker for DLC so I may end buying all of it.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

I also notice the dislikes on the video to me I definitely understand why it is the DLC is way more expensive than the base game alone which is ridiculous especially for the ultimate classes yeah  you can say pick the ones you want but that's very high for a remake.

[Thane]

3 minutes ago, Blade Lord Lyn said:

you can say pick the ones you want but that's very high for a remake.

Not only that, but a lot of this seems to be content that is ready from the get-go. Day one DLC is widely despised.

Honestly it seems like they're testing to see how much they can get away with, since all this DLC just seems a lot more pointless and more easily produced when compared to Awakening and even Fates. I know I'm sounding like a broken record here but what is even the point of all this DLC? The super classes in particular just seem so unnecessary without challenge maps, and when you compare Future Past to the Deliverance maps here, there's just no comparison in terms of how many characters get involved.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

6 minutes ago, Thane said:

Not only that, but a lot of this seems to be content that is ready from the get-go. Day one DLC is widely despised.

Honestly it seems like they're testing to see how much they can get away with, since all this DLC just seems a lot more pointless and more easily produced when compared to Awakening and even Fates. I know I'm sounding like a broken record here but what is even the point of all this DLC? The super classes in particular just seem so unnecessary without challenge maps, and when you compare Future Past to the Deliverance maps here, there's just no comparison in terms of how many characters get involved.

I definitely agree they are trying to get a little profit from this remake and yeah the new classes seem very pointless and unnecessary especially since there's really no Apotheosis like map and the chapter 6 postgame is very passable without it and then nothing left to do in the main game.

[Armagon]

Despite the complaints with the DLC, i feel like people would at least end up buying the Cipher DLC. Because, if understood the UK site correctly, you actually get to recruit the Cipher characters.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Despite the complaints with the DLC, i feel like people would at least end up buying the Cipher DLC. Because, if understood the UK site correctly, you actually get to recruit the Cipher characters.

That is tolerable since you can use them on your team in multiple playthroughs.

[King Marth 64]

28 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Despite the complaints with the DLC, i feel like people would at least end up buying the Cipher DLC. Because, if understood the UK site correctly, you actually get to recruit the Cipher characters.

I kinda wondered if those 4 characters will get an actual voices or they will might appear as a silent Einherjars like in Awakening and Fates. But, I hope we can play one of the 4 characters from the DLC and play them in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia.

Anyway, I think I'll might need to save up money for the Season Packs or get the DLC packs instead.

[Lanko]

Ridiculous, with a 30% discount it's still more expensive than the game itself.

And it seems some of it (if not most or even all) are already ready even if they won't be all released right away. 

I know they have done a lot of Mila's Turnwheel, base convos, fully-voiced lines, skills and etc but they also kept a lot of things that could've used an update. Mainly, the lack of axe classes, weapon triangle, more support convos (base convos will get repetitive after a 2nd playthrough, supports always brings something new if you have more of them) and specially tweaked the maps.

But all the resources were funneled into not three, or four, but freaking five DLC series.

Some people are gonna say the game was not balanced around WT, that the dev explained it, etc, but it's not like they already didn't implement a lot of changes like extra Avoid on Forests, higher stats and stat grow, Mila's Turnwheel, Skills, Dungeons, created a new character, added an extra chapter (at least this one isn't DLC)...

Unless those Cipher character have a unique design and are voiced, I don't think I will get them either, specially if they're just gonna be like the recruitable characters in Awakening, where they only had a cool artwork and were silent Einherjar.

I do have the money for it, but I think I will pass, because like others here said, I also think they are just testing the waters to see with how much they can get away with and I don't want to help contribute to that...

Edited May 3, 2017 by Lanko

[Jon582]

I was impressed by the price of the season pass, so I did the maths and...

$7.99 + $9.99 + $14.99 + $12.99 + $5.99 = $51.95

The season pass is $44.99, and Nintendo said that it would save more than a 30%, but this is not true: (44.99/51.95)*100= 86.6% of the actual price, witch means a reduction of a 13.39%.

May they be referring to the cost of buying each map individually?

[sirmola]

6 minutes ago, Jon582 said:

I was impressed by the price of the season pass, so I did the maths and...

$7.99 + $9.99 + $14.99 + $12.99 + $5.99 = $51.95

The season pass is $44.99, and Nintendo said that it would save more than a 30%, but this is not true: (44.99/51.95)*100= 86.6% of the actual price, witch means a reduction of a 13.39%.

May they be referring to the cost of buying each map individually?

Probably. We don't know the cost for each series five DLC map, but buying each map individualy, exept for series 5, which you can buy in a pack, this gives you 3.99*8+2.99*2+1.99*10+5.99=63.79. (4.99/63.79)*100=70.3% of the price. Keep in mind that the savings will probably be even higher if the series 5 maps being bought seperetly is taken as a baseline (depending on price). So you will probably have more than 30% savings. That being said, either price is too high. (and it seems disengenuious to advertise a "dungion" consisting of a small room containg the reward and nothing else.

[r_n]

18 minutes ago, Lanko said:

And it seems some of it (if not most or even all) are already ready even if they won't be all released right away. 

I keep seeing this brought up and its like...yes? Like the overclass dlc comes out in a few weeks worldwide. By necessity, this had to be completed a while ago. Likely started development after the game itself was internally complete? This is standard procedure?

I definitely remember them showing off Awakening DLC maps before Awakening was out so this isnt anything new for the series, much less other games with DLC.

 

That said I'll continue to echo my general disappointment with a lot of the DLC. The grinding series 1? Fine. Prologue maps? Look fine, especially if they're Voice ACted; I even enjoyed Hidden Truths so the low cast per map doesn't bug me. Cipher Maps.......maybe fine? We need to see what that even amounts to.

But a harder set of grind dlc??? 10 classes, $2 each, without a map to go with them and all of them are super classes for use with.....??? They look neat at least

And did anyone else notice them trying to pass off the second grind set as a challenge map? Which sure, they're 3 star rankings so that's technically true but...

[sirmola]

From what I read, and console game has to be essentualy 100% complete like a month and a half in advance so that it can be "certified"(which is a checklist console makers force all game developers to go through that is really slow), rated, printed, and shipped. THe dev team is not doing a stitch of work during that time, so it makes sense to work on dlc. on-disc DLC, on the other hand, does not have that excuse

[Galactaray]

After thinking about it, I don't really care about the DLC. They're offering all this to us as extras and there's nothing hindering the base game as it seems. THe game looks like a faithful remake with a lot of resources. 

While some of it is over priced by a lot I don't really care. It's optional  and we're still getting Heroes for free so I ain't complaining and the base game looks great. It's ridiculous yes and some of it isn't necessary but one really doesn't need to buy it anyway, it's just chocolate sprinkles to some ice cream slightly increases the value of the ice cream by a minuscule amount that it doesn't really matter. Personally I'm buying the harder exp grinding map just cause the dungeon looks good and packs 4 and 5 since they have new content + story things. Grinding in Echoes really doesn't look like a thing to me as it's already present in the base game but if people want an easier time I have nothing against that.

[Thane]

5 minutes ago, Galactaray said:

After thinking about it, I don't really care about the DLC. They're offering all this to us as extras and there's nothing hindering the base game as it seems. THe game looks like a faithful remake with a lot of resources. 

While some of it is over priced by a lot I don't really care. It's optional  and we're still getting Heroes for free so I ain't complaining and the base game looks great. It's ridiculous yes and some of it isn't necessary but one really doesn't need to buy it anyway, it's just chocolate sprinkles to some ice cream slightly increases the value of the ice cream by a minuscule amount that it doesn't really matter. Personally I'm buying the harder exp grinding map just cause the dungeon looks good and packs 4 and 5 since they have new content + story things. Grinding in Echoes really doesn't look like a thing to me as it's already present in the base game but if people want an easier time I have nothing against that.

This is not how these things work. This content is most likely pretty much all ready at launch - hell, one of the packs already is. These are not "extras" or "sprinkles", these are large chunks of gameplay that together costs more than the bloody base game. They're not doing us a favor here, they're seeing how much DLC they can get away with because tiny maps like these are much easier to produce and more profitable to sell.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Thane

[The DanMan]

Not buying any of this. Hope it underperforms-- I don't want them to think this is okay. It's gotten a negative reaction elsewhere, so that's a good sign at least.

[Galactaray]

Just now, Thane said:

This is not how these things work. This content is most likely pretty much all ready at launch - hell, one of the packs already is. These are not "exras" or "sprinkles", these are large chunks of gameplay that together costs more than the bloody base game. They're not doing us a favor here, they're seeing how much DLC they can get away with because tiny maps like these are much easier to produce and more profitable to sell.

It almost tradition at this point to have grinding-DLC maps. Heck most of the DLC maps for fates and awakening were probably already ready for use to play when we got them since the time from Japanese - Western releases.  And it's just some low level grinding maps it really doesn't matter. The game doesn't even have lunatic mode right. It barely enhances the game play anyway, if you don't like it don't buy it.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Galactaray said:

It almost tradition at this point to have grinding-DLC maps. Heck most of the DLC maps for fates and awakening were probably already ready for use to play when we got them since the time from Japanese - Western releases.

I'm not saying there's nothing of value, I'm saying there is too little given the price tag. Also, do you not see anything off with day one DLC?

2 minutes ago, Galactaray said:

It barely enhances the game play anyway, if you don't like it don't buy it.

Then why do they add it as day one DLC? Why do they try to sell super classes when there's really nothing they can be useful for? 

The problem with the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument is that it completely misses the entire bloody point. Shadows of Valentia is a heavily flawed game, and judging by how quickly this DLC is available, actual time that could've been spent on working on the main product went to this. Keep in mind that it is, to the best of my knowledge, not the developers who decide what kind of DLC they should make or how they should sell it, but the bigwigs. This is not simply a little treat we can ignore, this is Nintendo trying to make a lot of extra money at the expense of the main game.

I've got nothing against proper DLC, especially not stuff that is made after the game has been made, released and had a lot of time put into it, but this doesn't strike me as such.

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, Thane said:

The problem with the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument is that it completely misses the entire bloody point. Shadows of Valentia is a heavily flawed game, and judging by how quickly this DLC is available, actual time that could've been spent on working on the main product went to this. Keep in mind that it is, to the best of my knowledge, not the developers who decide what kind of DLC they should make or how they should sell it, but the bigwigs. This is not simply a little treat we can ignore, this is Nintendo trying to make a lot of extra money at the expense of the main game.

Didn't IS say they purposly kept some of Gaiden's flaws though? Anyway, what i had seen from this game even before the DLC made me feel like the main game was already complete. Proof: The DLC isn't in the game cart. While Echoes' DLC is unnescesary, it's also not on-cart DLC, something that compines like EA practice regurarly. On-cart DLC is like, the actual bad DLC, and at least Echoes isn't doing that.

[Lanko]

28 minutes ago, Thane said:

The problem with the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument is that it completely misses the entire bloody point. Shadows of Valentia is a heavily flawed game, and judging by how quickly this DLC is available, actual time that could've been spent on working on the main product went to this. Keep in mind that it is, to the best of my knowledge, not the developers who decide what kind of DLC they should make or how they should sell it, but the bigwigs. This is not simply a little treat we can ignore, this is Nintendo trying to make a lot of extra money at the expense of the main game.

I've got nothing against proper DLC, especially not stuff that is made after the game has been made, released and had a lot of time put into it, but this doesn't strike me as such.

Exactly my thoughts.

The "it's standard procedure of the industry" argument goes the same way. If you had 1 year and a half to make the game, you worked that period on it. Now if you have 1 year and a half to launch, chances are you have to internally finish it in one year so the team can switch to work for the other half to have DLC available on the release date. After all, resources aren't abundant.

It feels they're not doing DLC after they finished and polished the main game to the best they could. Nothing comes without a price. If they have to work on DLC for release date, the main game needs to be finished quicker. The publisher won't simply give extra time. "If you have 1 year and a half, finish the game in 1 year and then work on DLC, we won't give you 2 years."

This gets even more blatant on PC games, when games are released with bugs, poor performance and other stuff that went by because of lack of proper testing and that needs patches and patches to get it fixed and properly corrected. Or even games that look like a prototype and only get going after multiple patches and a few expansions (Civilization, anyone?) But DLC never stops flowing.

I don't have anything against proper DLC, but like Thane said, it's not like they polished to the best they could and then thought, "Ok, how now we can expand the game further, or what would people want or let's see some feedback,". It was probably all in the thought and production process since the game began.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Lanko

[Thane]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Didn't IS say they purposly kept some of Gaiden's flaws though? Anyway, what i had seen from this game even before the DLC made me feel like the main game was already complete. Proof: The DLC isn't in the game cart. While Echoes' DLC is unnescesary, it's also not on-cart DLC, something that compines like EA practice regurarly. On-cart DLC is like, the actual bad DLC, and at least Echoes isn't doing that.

First of all, while some of the stranger design decisions would've most likely remained, I think a few things would've been ironed out if they had had more time. It's much quicker to just look at a map and copy it over in a more modern engine, after all.

Secondly, like I mentioned earlier, I highly doubt the developers decided what kind of DLC they should make, how much of it and when it should be ready. The fact that it's so quickly available means development time has been used for it - it didn't come from nowhere. What you cited isn't proof, and it could just as easily be countered by me saying chapter 6 is proof of them needing more time because that part feels rushed.

[r_n]

Awakening & Fates both had day 1 dlc. Of all things to beat the "echoes dlc is bad" drum with, why focus on them having dlc ready to go for day 1.

E: Focus is a bad word, it's not the prime focus. You get what i mean though

e2: Wanted to correct myself rq. Awakening had day 1 dlc (and it was shown before release), Fates came ~a month later in japan. I was confusing it with Anna already being in the game, probably.

Edited May 3, 2017 by r_n

[Lanko]

Awakening had day 1 DLC, alright. But neither it nor Fates had five series of DLC, four on the ready as they launched.

Also, for example, the first DLC (a single map) for Awakening was released in 19th April. Apotheosis was only released in 22nd November. And Awakening only had 2 series of DLC. That's almost a year.

Echoes was released in 20th April and 1 month later they already had available the 4th pack of DLC with the 5th TBA. And who knows if there will be more... In NA it will all be available 10 days after release.

This difference seems clear that in Awakening the main game received total attention and the bulk of the DLC only came after the game's major success and the success of the DLC was because of the success of the game. In Echoes it seems they already took it for granted and looks like they are testing the waters to see how much they can cash in.

Specially considering a lot of things look like a step down from what was done in previous installments. I mean, no Pair Up (I don't mind it gone, but what new thing replaced it? The Turnwheel?), no Axe classes or weapons (would it really be bothersome to include them and create skills for them, specially considering there's no Weapon Triangle, anyway?), no Weapon Triangle (would it really hurt to tweak things for this? I mean they tweaked the Avoid of Forests and other tiles a lot), the maps appear to have just been copy-pasted, less options for Reclassing, less classes (No Wyverns, no Assassins, Cavaliers can only go Paladin, Knights only General, etc), even less weapons (Archer-Sniper-Bow Knight only uses Bows, Paladins-Gold Knights only uses Lances, etc). And I'm not sure how to feel about the 1 item inventory or the fact that grinding is encouraged in a traditional limited resources (EXP, Gold, etc) style game.

And the guy says he purposefully kept the flawed aspects... I don't know what to think of it... I mean, if those flaws were so glaring, why keep it?

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Lanko

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Lanko said:

Specially considering a lot of things look like a step down from what was done in previous installments. I mean, no Pair Up (I don't mind it gone, but what new thing replaced it? The Turnwheel?), no Axe classes or weapons (would it really be bothersome to include them and create skills for them, specially considering there's no Weapon Triangle, anyway?), no Weapon Triangle (would it really hurt to tweak things for this? I mean they tweaked the Avoid of Forests and other tiles a lot), the maps appear to have just been copy-pasted, less options for Reclassing, less classes (No Wyverns, no Assassins, Cavaliers can only go Paladin, Knights only General, etc), even less weapons (Archer-Sniper-Bow Knight only uses Bows, Paladins-Gold Knights only uses Lances, etc). And I'm not sure how to feel about the 1 item inventory or the fact that grinding is encouraged in a traditional limited resources (EXP, Gold, etc) style game.

 

 

1. Echoes doesn't need pair-up. Besides, Support bonuses still exist.

2. Weapon Triangle would break the game. The maps and classes are designed without the weapon triangle in mind. It's a one-time thing, really. Gaiden/Echoes is just that different.

3. Less Classes isn't really an issue considering this game has a small cast.

4. Classes only being able to use one weapon type ties into point 2.

5. One item/weapon inventory also ties into point 2.

6. Gaiden introduced the world map. Of course Echoes is gonna have it.

 

As for the copy-pasted maps, only Ch.3 does that iirc. I mean, the maps in the game are bland regardless. But so were Awakening's so ehh.

 

Echoes only feels like a downgrade because it's a remake of the series' black sheep.