Amelia vs. Dozla

[Tino]

Because Swordsalmon said that Dozla > Amelia in another topic and said he would prove me wrong, I decided to make a topic about it. It's a debate. No personal experience.

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Amelia has a period of suck. That's bad, right? Yes, it is, but the same is true of Dozla. Dozla's period of suck is later on. Amelia is horrible when she joins and excellent later on. Dozla is average upon joining, but horrible later on. Amelia's average performance is better than Dozla's.

Amelia can be compared to Franz in the later chapters, while Dozla cannot. Sure, she can't be compared to him upon joining, but like I said before in the other topic, Dozla is one of your worst units later on, if not the absolute worst. This starts in chapter 13, and will last for the rest of the game.

Amelia > Dozla

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Yeah, pretty short, but that doesn't matter ^_^

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Oh really? Well any level Amelia gains is consider babying. Therefore, she requires huge amount of time before getting excellent later on whereas Dozla does not. :P

[Tino]

Oh really? Well any level Amelia gains is consider babying. Therefore, she requires huge amount of time before getting excellent later on whereas Dozla does not. :P

It's only babying when you sacrify efficiency in order to give Amelia some additional kills. However, there are more than enough occasions (spelling?) where Amelia can and <b>will</b> take said kills over your other characters without losing any efficiency. If an enemy is left with 1 HP, anyone can kill it.

In FE8, worse combat abilities slow down the process of beating a chapter, but don't stop it at all. Amelia's much higher Experience gains cancel out with her worse combat abilities in her early chapters. So she's just getting more of those sexy kills than any other units, making her grow a lot faster than anyone.

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Quote from the other Amelia topic ^_^

EDIT: Also, Dozla doesn't become excellent.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Tino

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Well, you certainly put me on the spot lol :P

[Tino]

Well, you certainly put me on the spot lol :P

Yay ^_^

I'm going to defend Amelia with all I've got

[DeSu]

I'm going to defend Amelia with all I've got

The greatest thing I've heard you say.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Amelia's afraid of Gheb while Dozla's too happy to care... that should give him some points right?

Dozla doesn't require babying.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Boo

[Florete]

I'd have to say Amelia would win because she can become good, whereas Dozla always sucks.

Neither are particularly good, though.

[DragonBladeSniper]

Let's compare!

Dozla might have a better class but he is a prepromote so he has less better growths. Amelia could have all 3 weapons while Dozla is stuck with one. Amelia comes in earlier, has better supports (and is more worth it), has like 50 levels to grow and she could become mounted(though I prefer general...). By the time Amelia catchs up to Dozla (she obviously will) she'll have way better stats then Dozla.

Amelia wins!

[Tino]

Amelia's afraid of Gheb while Dozla's too happy to care... that should give him some points right?

Dozla doesn't require babying.

Did you even read what I said about that babying?

It's only babying when you sacrify efficiency in order to give Amelia some additional kills. However, there are more than enough occasions (spelling?) where Amelia can and <b>will</b> take said kills over your other characters without losing any efficiency. If an enemy is left with 1 HP, anyone can kill it.

In FE8, worse combat abilities slow down the process of beating a chapter, but don't stop it at all. Amelia's much higher Experience gains cancel out with her worse combat abilities in her early chapters. So she's just getting more of those sexy kills than any other units, making her grow a lot faster than anyone.

Neither are particularly good, though.

Dozla sucks. Amelia is pretty good, actually. She has two, maybe three chapters of suck, while she's quite an excellent character after that.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Did you even read what I said about that babying?

It's only babying when you sacrify efficiency in order to give Amelia some additional kills. However, there are more than enough occasions (spelling?) where Amelia can and <b>will</b> take said kills over your other characters without losing any efficiency. If an enemy is left with 1 HP, anyone can kill it.

In FE8, worse combat abilities slow down the process of beating a chapter, but don't stop it at all. Amelia's much higher Experience gains cancel out with her worse combat abilities in her early chapters. So she's just getting more of those sexy kills than any other units, making her grow a lot faster than anyone.

I read it.

A. How can there be "more than enough occasions" of that nature when the enemies are so pathetic that most of your units are killing everything in 1 round?

B. That's also leeching since she's basically taking EXP that others can put to better use.

Least with Dozla you don't have to worry much about leveling him or him doing any damage and having critical boost on him just means he's got a chance of not eating a counter-attack. Amelia has trouble doing much cause of her poor STR and MOV.

[sandmanccl]

Dozla actually has pretty awesome growths, especially for a guy that joins promoted. He's also got ridiculous constitution (16 CON = win) so while he is pretty slow upon joining, his attack speed doesn't ever really suffer from using heavier weaponry.

He doesn't end up that bad, either. His skill is enough to get the job done (although it can be kind of spotty), his speed is enough to still double quite a lot of the enemies in the game, and his defense is no worse than half the other people in the game, plus he's got a lot of HP.

The only issue with his supports is competition (L'Arachel supports a lot of the best units in the game already, Rennac is actually a pretty good support for him, Ewan is also a pretty good support but Ewan is kind of a spotty character without using towers or fighting random battles) because the bonuses he can get from anyone he can support helps him out a great deal.

I also don't think comparing him with Amelia is all that fruitful because they serve pretty significantly different roles in combat. I think Amelia is great herself. Comparing Dozla to Ross or Garcia might actually matter a bit because they all serve similar roles in combat.

[Tino]

How can there be "more than enough occasions" of that nature when the enemies are so pathetic that most of your units are killing everything in 1 round?

Because most of your units aren't one-rounding all the time yet. And the enemies in this game aren't pathetic, most characters are quite uber.

I don't have enemy stats at hand, but I might be able to get them to prove my point.

That's also leeching since she's basically taking EXP that others can put to better use.

Like who? Amelia is one of the only characters with an excellent midgame AND endgame. She puts it to better use than most of your characters, in fact. The only other characters who are absolutely excellent endgame are Moulder, Franz, Vanessa, Ephraim and possibly Lute.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because most of your units aren't one-rounding all the time yet. And the enemies in this game aren't pathetic, most characters are quite uber.

I don't have enemy stats at hand, but I might be able to get them to prove my point.

Ok first let me ask this: Is this debate for a regular playthrough without any form of abuse? Moving...

You can't be serious... The enemies here are even worse than the ones in FE7 and are MUCH easier to 1 round and double so, just how are your units not 1-rounding most enemies? How?

Like who? Amelia is one of the only characters with an excellent midgame AND endgame. She puts it to better use than most of your characters, in fact. The only other characters who are absolutely excellent endgame are Moulder, Franz, Vanessa, Ephraim and possibly Lute.

You can't be serious on this one either... This game's got MANY candidates for endgame because the enemies are so pathetic that you may end up having a few units in your party capable of Soloing the last few chapters so why would you wanna waste time with an underleveled character like Amelia when you've got plenty of capable units already? With Dozla, you can just throw him in any chapter if you feel you need another unit and he'll do fine. You have to train Amelia and she'll often have to leech EXP to grow.

[Florete]

If Amelia can be babied (And don't try telling me it isn't babying) why does Ewan suck so much?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

He's the same as Amelia, just 3 chapters later.

[HowAreYaBud]

I think Dozla is better. Really only because I'm too lazy to get Amelia leveled up, but still.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Ok first let me ask this: Is this debate for a regular playthrough without any form of abuse? Moving...

You can't be serious... The enemies here are even worse than the ones in FE7 and are MUCH easier to 1 round and double so, just how are your units not 1-rounding most enemies? How?

You can't be serious on this one either... This game's got MANY candidates for endgame because the enemies are so pathetic that you may end up having a few units in your party capable of Soloing the last few chapters so why would you wanna waste time with an underleveled character like Amelia when you've got plenty of capable units already? With Dozla, you can just throw him in any chapter if you feel you need another unit and he'll do fine. You have to train Amelia and she'll often have to leech EXP to grow.

This is for a HM playthrough, no abuse.

Lolno. Non monster enemies (and many monster enemies) in FE8 are actually STRONGER than those in FE7. Seriously. Check if you want to.

No, in HM, while there are lots of GOOD units for endgame, there are only a few EXCELLENT units.

@Fox

Ewan needs a greater degree of babying first of all, is much more likely to die (and he dies from like EVERYTHING), and won't actually be that good. He doesn't have amazing Support Options, and his stats really aren't that great. Unlike Amelia, he won't end up with good Durability, and his Offense isn't that great either. He's MORE risk and less reward.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

If it's on a HM playthrough then that's even worse for the dude taking Amelia's side.

No, in HM, while there are lots of GOOD units for endgame, there are only a few EXCELLENT units.

Never did I call any1 excellent and you talk as if the need for EXCELLENT endgame units is absolute. Amelia's not excellent for endgame, that's for sure.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Boo

[General Spoon]

On the topic of powerful enemies in this game, we have the Demon King. I remember someone once saying his stats could make Hector break a sweat.

[Defeatist Elitist]

If it's on a HM playthrough then that's even worse for the dude taking Amelia's side.

Never did I call any1 excellent and you talk as if the need for EXCELLENT endgame units is absolute. Amelia's not excellent for endgame, that's for sure.

We always debate in HM. Amelia is pretty much a breeze to use on Normal or Easy.

And yeah, you quoted where Tino said Amelia was good because she was EXCELLENT endgame. So you said there where lots of other excellent characters. And Amelia is really good endgame. Her earlygame sucks, sure, but she can get past that easily enough.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

We always debate in HM. Amelia is pretty much a breeze to use on Normal or Easy.

And yeah, you quoted where Tino said Amelia was good because she was EXCELLENT endgame. So you said there where lots of other excellent characters. And Amelia is really good endgame. Her earlygame sucks, sure, but she can get past that easily enough.

I did quote him saying that but I didn't mean to say there were many excellent candidates, sorry about that one.

Amelia's early game is too much trouble for a "really good endgame" when you've got other good candidates. As said before, excellent candidates aren't always necessary.

[Tino]

I did quote him saying that but I didn't mean to say there were many excellent candidates, sorry about that one.

Amelia's early game is too much trouble for a "really good endgame" when you've got other good candidates. As said before, excellent candidates aren't always necessary.

No, but an excellent character for midgame and lategame is obviously much more sexy than a good character for just lategame.

[DeSu]

This topic is like the nega-Serenes. Never before have I

Completely disagreed with Fox and completely agreed with Tino...

gaaah!!! My head hurts :(

[Tino]

Woot for walls of numbers o.O

Dozla actually has pretty awesome growths, especially for a guy that joins promoted. He's also got ridiculous constitution (16 CON = win) so while he is pretty slow upon joining, his attack speed doesn't ever really suffer from using heavier weaponry.

He doesn't end up that bad, either. His skill is enough to get the job done (although it can be kind of spotty), his speed is enough to still double quite a lot of the enemies in the game, and his defense is no worse than half the other people in the game, plus he's got a lot of HP.

His Hit does suck. ~90 Hit with a Steel Axe at ??/5 (which will be around Chapter 14/15 or so) is highly lollable. That's ~105 with WTA, which is still pretty pathetic.

And no, he can't double/one-round reliably.

Ruled By Madness

Level 6 Dozla w/ Steel Axe

30 Atk, 11 AS, 94 Hit -- 47 HP, 13 Def, 7 Res, 28 Avo

10/20/2 Amelia w/ Iron Axe (Iron Lance) (Steel Sword), A Duessel/B Franz

25 (24) (25) Atk, 19 AS, 138 (143) (138) -- 37 HP, 18 Def, 16 Res, 79 Avoid

Level 14 Knight w/ Steel Lance: 23 Atk, 3 AS, 86 Hit -- 31 HP, 14 Def, 10 Avo

Level 15 Cavalier w/ Steel Sword: 19 Atk, 10 AS, 96 Hit -- 35 HP, 9 Def, 26 Avo

Level 16 Shaman w/ Flux: 18 Atk, 7 AS, 104 Hit -- 26 HP, 5 Def, 18 Avo

Level 15 Fighter w/ Iron Axe: 23 Atk, 9 AS, 96 Hit -- 36 HP, 5 Def, 21 Avo

Level 13 Mage w/ Thunder: 18 Atk, 8 AS, 100 Hit -- 27 HP, 4 Def, 20 Avo

Level 14 Mercenary w/ Iron SWord: 16 Atk, 15 AS, 122 Hit -- 31 HP, 7 Def, 34 Avo

Level 3 Priest: 4 AS -- 22 HP, 1 Def, 11 Avo

Level 16 Thief w/ Iron Sword: 10 Atk, 16 AS, 113 Hit -- 25 HP, 3 Def, 39 Avo

Level 3 Great Knight w/ Steel Sword: 24 Atk, 10 AS, 95 Hit -- 40 HP, 17 Def, 24 Avo

Level 3 Warrior w/ Silver Axe: 34 Atk, 11 AS, 94 Hit -- 49 HP, 9 Def, 26 Avo

Level 5 Hero w/ Silver Sword: 28 Atk, 16 AS, 120 Hit -- 44 HP, 14 Def, 39 Avo

level 10 Sage w/ Elfire: 31 Atk, 10 AS, 115 Hit -- 34 HP, 8 Def, 25 Avo

Level 4 Druid w/ Luna: 22 Atk, 7 AS, 75 Hit -- 32 HP, 7 Def, 20 Avo

Level 3 Swordmaster w/ Steel Sword: 19 Atk, 16 AS, 115 Hit -- 37 HP, 9 Def, 38 Avo

Dozla one-rounds Knights at 100% hit. He gets six-rounded at 37% true hit. Amelia two-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla two-rounds Cavaliers at 56% true hit. He gets seven-rounded at 94% true hit. Amelia two-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla one-rounds Shamans at 89% true hit. He gets five-rounded at 89% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She gets thirteen-rounded at 13% true hit.

Dozla two-rounds Fighters at 86% true hit. He gets five-rounded at 80% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla two-rounds Mages at 87% true hit. He gets five-rounded at 85% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She gets nineteen-rounded at 9% true hit.

Dozla two-rounds Mercenaries at 41% true hit. He gets four-rounded at 100% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla one-rounds Priests at 94% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit.

Dozla one-rounds Thieves at 32% true hit. He can't be killed. Amelia two-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla four-rounds Great Knights at 60% true hit. He gets four-rounded at 94% true hit. Amelia three-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla three-rounds Warriors at 80% true hit. He gets three-rounded at 80% true hit. Amelia two-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla three-rounds Heroes at 32% true hit. He gets two-rounded at 100% true hit. Amelia four-rounds at 100% true hit. She gets five-rounded at 14% true hit.

Dozla two-rounds Sages at 81% true hit. He gets two-rounded at 93% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She gets three-rounded at 26% true hit.

Dozla one-rounds Druids at 87% true hit. He gets three-rounded at 45% true hit. Amelia one-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Dozla two-rounds Swordmasters at 34% true hit. He gets three-rounded at 100% true hit. Amelia three-rounds at 100% true hit. She can't be killed.

Amelia has significant offensive leads, due to actually being able to double most things and actually hitting everything without any problems. Amelia also can barely be killed. The highest hit percentage she faces is 26%, and there are only two enemy Sages. Amelia can't be killed by most enemies, due to massive Avoid or her great concrete durability (HP/Def/Res).

The only issue with his supports is competition (L'Arachel supports a lot of the best units in the game already, Rennac is actually a pretty good support for him, Ewan is also a pretty good support but Ewan is kind of a spotty character without using towers or fighting random battles) because the bonuses he can get from anyone he can support helps him out a great deal.

L'Arachel sucks. Rennac sucks. Ewan sucks. Myrrh sucks. Garcia also isn't too great due to lollable AS (like Dozla).

He has no supports indeed.

I also don't think comparing him with Amelia is all that fruitful because they serve pretty significantly different roles in combat. I think Amelia is great herself. Comparing Dozla to Ross or Garcia might actually matter a bit because they all serve similar roles in combat.

What?

Dozla's job is to fight and kill things. Amelia's job is also to fight and kill things. Both have the exact same jobs, and Amelia does that job a lot better than Dozla.