Amelia vs. Dozla

[sandmanccl]

You don't really seem to be addressing my point...or you have misunderstood me.

That is not what I said. I said it is better for them to be durable than for them to be not durable. A Mage with 25 HP/10 Def is much better than one with 19 HP/5 Def. They may have equal offense on that uncountered player phase attack, but when enemy phase rolls around, the first dude can get more attacks in, be more exposed to enemies, advance further, retreat less, etc. Archers are just ghey...the fact that they cannot be exposed without being a liability alone makes them bad. Bad durability on top of that sucks even more.

Why in god's name are you letting your mage get attacked? The ability to be exposed slightly safer doesn't mean you should let them be exposed. A mage with 25 HP and 10 defense is still a liability if left towards being attacked because he's still going have a huge chunk of his HP taken off if he gets hit, and if you miss on your turn, you've got a pretty big chance of having a dead unit on your hands.

Also, if we're going to say 19 HP to 25 HP, we're talking like a 8 level discrepency. Unless you seriously overuse Erk, that's not going to happen, especially if you went through Lyn's mode where Lucius is very much more potent than Erk because of his speed being high enough at base to double attack. The defense discrepency would also only occur via two B-rank supports with people that boosted defense, and you're NOT going to get that in 5 or 7 maps.

I gotta go right this very second but I will address more later. STAY TUNED.

[Mekkah]

The numbers I used were randomly assigned to prove my point about durability being better, I wasn't talking about Erk vs Lucius specifically. I'll drop the example if you want to go into real existing characters.

Why in god's name are you letting your mage get attacked? The ability to be exposed slightly safer doesn't mean you should let them be exposed.

Because I can. When we're talking of people like Erk, we're talking about people with strong 1-2 range - accurate, powerful (due to Res-hitting) and able to DA. I'd like to be able to expose that on enemy phase as much as possible. And yes, someone like Erk can survive enemy phases quite comfortably once raised, whereas Lucius seems to be in danger plenty.

especially if you went through Lyn's mode where Lucius is very much more potent than Erk because of his speed being high enough at base to double attack.

By the time Lucius joins, Erk can DA as well. He only needs one, maybe two Spd level ups to do it to those lame Lyn Mode enemies. They can kill about the same stuff there...not nearly as important as Erk's availability in Ch15, Ch16 and Ch17. You know, chapters with more than 10 enemies total.

[sandmanccl]

That's ridiculous. Having Oswin, Hector, Dorcas, Geitz and stuff on my team doesn't mean I'll take a glass cannon like Lucius over someone with actual durability like Erk (yes, their durability difference is significant). If I use one with more durability, that one will be able to move out on its own, for example, or do all the things I described in my first paragraph.

But that terrain may not always be there. Or when it is, it could be that you have more than one unit who wants to take advantage of it when in reality you can only cover one unit.

Why wouldn't it? If your goal is to beat the stage with as little hassle as possible, you are going to want your units that take the least amount of damage in the fronts to absorb hits from enemies. They also inflict pretty heavy damage, usually enough so that someone else can come up when it's your turn to finish the job.

And I realize the terrain isn't ALWAYS there, but it's there most of the time. Leaving your guys just out of range with even a single guy in range of enemies is a perfectly viable and proven strategy. It doesn't really matter a whole lot if they aren't as far forward as possible because they still aren't going beyond where that enemy will be on your turn, because they're going to attack and finish it off. Then you can move your front line forward again to kite the next group of enemies to you. It's conservative style of play, but it works and can still net you an S-rank.

If you're using such a strategy, even you must admit that the durability of your ranged reserve units doesn't matter a whole helluva lot. If I didn't mind putting my less durable units at risk, then yeah, Erk is better than Lucius.

You're not making any sense. I honestly am not understanding your point.

I'm saying focusing on specific characters doesn't make you better. Focusing on certain strategies and what each unit brings towards that goal DOES help, however. I don't mind if my units are slow as long as they don't take a whole lot of damage so I don't have to worry about my healer(s) getting to them on that turn just so they can survive another round. Because of that, I tend to rely on a lot of ranged units, and I like my ranged units to also be powerful. Because my heavy guys are in front making sure nothing can get back to my less durable units, I only care if they can hit and hit hard.

Yes, they have the same purpose: they fight.

Oversimplification. You're not going to attack a general with your swordmasters when you can just as easily attack that general with your warriors, who will inflict a helluva lot more damage and risk less because of their thicker HP sinks.

Strategy. Strategy. Strategy.

Do tanks serve the same purpose as rocket platforms in the Advance Wars games? I mean, the point is to make the enemy dead so it doesn't matter what you use, right? Hydralisks and Lurkers both exists just to kill enemy units but Lurkers do more damage and therefore are the superior unit, right? Mages and bards both have access to the same spells but bards only get to 6ths level rather than 9th so clearly they are inferior in every way to mages, right?

I hope you get my point.

So nothing matters then. Ok. That even contradicts yourself saying All that matters is offense and mobility on magic units, yes.

I'll take a unit with 20 in every stat over one with 10 over every stat, even though I could wall off the latter and always babyspoon him kills.

Sell me your point, man. If you want to say strength doesn't matter, tell me why and if it's a good reason, I'll buy it. Like, say, Lowen. Yeah, he's not terribly powerful but he's made out of steel and is highly mobile so he serves as one of the more functionable tank units.

Leaving off irrelevant bonuses like Hit and CEV:

B Guy: 2 Atk/5 Avo/10 Crt

B Raven: 1 Atk/1 Def/5 Avo/5 Crt

Priscilla largely doesn't give a damn about her bonuses prepromotion. She cannot attack, and she sucks at defending no matter what bonuses she gets, and has no reason to be in the line of fire (unlike Mages).

After promotion (when the support has hit B), we see it's 1 Atk/5 Crt vs 1 Def. 1 Atk vs 1 Def looks about equal to me (I'd argue 1 Atk helps her more, but w/e), so the Crit is the kicker. Priscilla wants as much offense as possible so she can score kills with Fire and become able to use Thunder, after all.

Which is entirely in your opinion. Now, I happen to agree that she's better off with a more solid offense than defense because you still aren't going to want her getting hit, but as a mobile healer that can defend herself on her turn, I happen to like the defensive option as well in the off-chance one of my front-line eats a crit and it's better off to heal them and leave her exposed than to hope my other guy survives another hit.

The real kicker is that it helps out Raven an awful lot. His defense is mediocre at best, and the extra crit evade and defense helps him out tremendously.

Sorry, but...you call using both swordies massive fail, while recommending me to use Lyn, Dorcas and Bartre? First things first: Lyn's promotion isn't free. Heaven Seal costs 20k, and there's only one reasonably early one, which Eliwood might want.

Is there some hidden cost I didn't know about? I was fairly certain that the second Heaven Seal sort of just happens, as in you didn't have to buy it. If using it costs you money, I didn't know about that and would re-evaluate my views of Lyn.

Now, what is this obsession with wanting so many different weapon types or something? Because that's the only reason to ditch some god like Raven over a stub like Bartre. Are you saying your team must always consist of swordie/axer/lancer/bow user/Lucius/Canas/anima/staff user or something? Because that's obviously pretty dumb. You're not playing Pokemon where type matters. The only time it makes a difference between 8 axers and 4 axers/4 swordies is if you're going to get a significant amount of WTD...but you can even get away with WTD since it's only a small percentage of the whole combat window. 15% hit/avo and 1 Atk/Def, while significant, is not the end of the world, especially not if Raven has all around better battle parameters than said axe user.

You're saying that wanting versatility out of my units is a bad thing? Then why the hell do you say that Great Knights are better than Paladins in FE8?

I say dump Guy before Raven because Raven is beastly even without supports, whereas Guy is massive fail without his supports.

I argue one main axe guy, one main sword guy, two people with high HP and DEF, a flier, a t2 magic user, and pretty much whatever else you want to bring. If you haven't noticed, the devs tend to put lumps of enemies together where one type of weapon will get you through all of them attacking you. Usually, there's a bunch of lance guys in a group, or a bunch of sword guys, or a bunch of axe guys. When it's a bunch of lance guys, who are you gonna stick in the front? Probably a fighter or knight over a myrmidon. Who are you gonna stick in front when it's a bunch of sword guys? Probably a knight or a swordmaster. You'll leave the knight behind if it's a bunch of axe guys, just to round out that example. If I've got sages and snipers to back them up, well, all the better to clear out what's left and move my front lines up more.

If you want me to compare the averages of Dorcas and Bartre (who, FYI, hardly ever go higher than Mid tier on tier lists, if that) versus Raven or Guy (who have always been near the Top, or in High), say so. Oh wait, you don't believe in stats, do you? I guess weapon type doesn't matter then either.

When the stat differential is minute, then I don't really give a damn. I'd rather bring guys that serve a purpose for the situation at hand, rather than hope they get away with it because of superior numbers.

Remove the weapon triangle like they do in Radiant Dawn's hard mode, then I'll say stats are all that matters because in that scenario, it's the truth. If you're dealing with the difference between 20 attack power and 25 attack power, well, it doesn't make very much difference.

For Lyn, suffice it to say that her durability blows cock (she has less physical durability than Lucius, and way less magical durability, and unlike Lucius, she has no ranged attack until promotion...that's how much she fails). Using her over a good unit is nuh-uh.

Sorry, but Guy's offense is better than the majority of your characters against the majority of enemies. The only time others have any kind of contest against him is against a lance user when the other dude has no WTD, but even then he usually wins a comparison.

Guy's offense in ONE SPECIFIC SCENARIO is better than a lot of your other guys, but totally fails without it. You can make Lyn's durability as good if not better than Guy's, if we're going to use specific scenarios. Give her Eliwood/Kent A and B and that's a significant boost to her attack, defense, and avoid. Guy doesn't even have the option to boost his defense, and his piddly 15% gain isn't doing him any favors. On average, both units on their own have pretty much equivalent defensive capabilities as their defenses are near equal (a 3 point spread on DEF at worst and a 4 point spread on luck, at worst). Lyn's actually got a slight advantage if you choose to give her one because there's a number of items during her mode that boost stats that Guy never even has the chance to access.

Just as I can make Guy a viable unit with certain, very specific supports, I can do the same with Lyn.

[Swordsalmon]

Having to cover characters from attacks hurts Tactics, making formations virtually worthless except in few cases.

Also, in Lyn Vs. Guy, a supportless Guy still beats Lyn due to promoting early and actually having some sort of durability. This would also apply if Lyn somehow got Florina A. >__<

[Kintenbo]

.....Huh?

Going back to topic, Amelia is probably better than Dozla for actually capable of being good. Dozla is definately not the absolute worst, but he's pretty bad. At least Amelia has some time to get not very behind Dozla when he joins.

What's with the Guy, Priscilla, Raven, and a whole ton of hoolaboo arguments?

[sandmanccl]

I typed up a response I'm going to put in a new thread in the FE7 forums. Not that this thread is even remotely on track, but at least the potential will be there.

Regarding Dozla:

You saying 25 or 26 strength on average, 59 or 60 HP (60 is the max, fyi), 17 or 18 skill, 16 or 17 speed, 16 or 17 defense is bad? It might not be stellar but it's hardly bad and more than enough to get the job done effectively. His luck IS pretty bad, and his resistance isn't very good, but that's a pretty common theme among a lot of the units you can use in the game so working around that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Mekkah]

Dozla's problem is that he sux at DAing, so he needs a Crt to one round, and he also has terriblegh avoid. He's not the worst unit in the game, but he's down there.

[sandmanccl]

Comparing him to other guys that use axes as their main form of attack:

Ross ends up with 19 speed. That's two to three points better is all. Not the most significant difference in the world. His strength will be a lot better and his avoid is a lot better due to higher luck, but takes more patience to get there because Ross is kind of a pussy for a couple maps while Dozla is available as a viable unit immediately.

(Note: I like Ross a lot more personally because it's rewarding to me to use the guys that require the most babying but become amazing. Just giving an argument that Dozla isn't actually that bad.)

Garcia ends up even slower than Dozla on average, due to his pathetically bad growths. He'll have even more trouble double attacking than Doz.

Duessel also ends up slower than Dozla. Much better defense, but Dozla's actually got the HP lead and neither of them have avoid even worth talking about.

So if you want someone that will S-rank axes without you having to completely drop other weapon types in favor for axes after promotion, Dozla is your second fastest option. Even comparing 20/20 stats to a lot of the guys who can potentially gain axes, he's usually not too far behind in one of the areas he's commonly slammed on (like say defense or avoid). He's got better HP and ties defense against both Forde and Franz, ties speed, luck and resistance with Gilliam.

Kyle, Gerik, and Amelia destroy him, but there's not a whole lot of people they DON'T totally overwhelm at max level.

[General Spoon]

I should use Dozla sometime. I don't know why I haven't yet. His happy go lucky attitude is pure win.