Amelia vs. Dozla

[Meteor]

On the topic of powerful enemies in this game, we have the Demon King. I remember someone once saying his stats could make Hector break a sweat.

Only if he didn't have an effective weapon.

[sandmanccl]

Don't mean to straight up ignore the numbers, but I'm cutting them out of the quote because getting THAT detailed into them doesn't actually matter a whole lot.

Amelia has significant offensive leads, due to actually being able to double most things and actually hitting everything without any problems. Amelia also can barely be killed. The highest hit percentage she faces is 26%, and there are only two enemy Sages. Amelia can't be killed by most enemies, due to massive Avoid or her great concrete durability (HP/Def/Res).

L'Arachel sucks. Rennac sucks. Ewan sucks. Myrrh sucks. Garcia also isn't too great due to lollable AS (like Dozla).

I've used Garcia to amazing effect even with poor speed. Attack speed means very, very, very little when you hit for as hard as the guy can hit. Plus, that supreme power with a bow? Very difficult for me to give up tactically.

L'Arachel is amazing. Rennac serves a purpose so even if he's not the best fighter on the floor, he is still fielded. Ewan isn't that great barring going just one stage into a random battle to get him at least to mage/shaman level (which I don't consider cheating as it was the game developer's intentions, but whatever). Myrrh is actually pretty freakin' amazing if you bother to level her up, but I agree it's a poor support choice because she's very limited in her action.

And as I've said, Garcia is pretty good in the right hands.

What?

Dozla's job is to fight and kill things. Amelia's job is also to fight and kill things. Both have the exact same jobs, and Amelia does that job a lot better than Dozla.

That's an overly simplified way of looking at things.

A cavalier's job is to be mobile enough to track down fleeing enemies, run in to kill things behind enemy front-lines, rescuing weaker units that would die should they get attacked on the enemy phase, and to bait either sword or axe users while equipped with a lance or sword respectively. (This is assuming you make her a cavalier and then GK or Paladin, which seems to be what all you guys think she's best as.)

A berserker's job is to decimate things with large defenses, to tank situations where you know you're going to get hit so the only thing that's going to save you is a high HP count, and to obliterate lance wielders.

They have pretty distinct roles in combat. Using each how the game developers intended, they don't overlap roles very often.

If you're going to compare Amelia to someone, compare her to people with the same role, i.e. Seth, promoted Ephraim and Eirika, Franz, Forde, Kyle, and possibly to a different extent Vanessa, Tana, and Cormag.

[Swordsalmon]

They both fight enemies. No reason to use a class just to handle a specific enemy class. You fight all enemies with whatever character unless Character X would not survive.

[Defeatist Elitist]

A cavalier's job is to be mobile enough to track down fleeing enemies, run in to kill things behind enemy front-lines, rescuing weaker units that would die should they get attacked on the enemy phase, and to bait either sword or axe users while equipped with a lance or sword respectively. (This is assuming you make her a cavalier and then GK or Paladin, which seems to be what all you guys think she's best as.)

A berserker's job is to decimate things with large defenses, to tank situations where you know you're going to get hit so the only thing that's going to save you is a high HP count, and to obliterate lance wielders.

They have pretty distinct roles in combat. Using each how the game developers intended, they don't overlap roles very often.

Except Amelia wins at her role, and beats Dozla at his. She reliably tanks better than him and kills things better. So either way she wins. In fact, she wins EVEN MORE with this "role" business.

[sandmanccl]

You guys are joking, right?

Tell me you're joking.

This isn't Disgaea. You can't make one unit do everything for you.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You guys are joking, right?

Tell me you're joking.

This isn't Disgaea. You can't make one unit do everything for you.

I know you can't. What I'm saying is that for BOTH OPTIONS, Amelia is better. You have other good units too. You can use them for all sorts of things. Hell, you don't have to use Amelia for Dozla's job. But the point is, if she did, SHE'D BE BETTER THAN HIM AT IT. We understand you can't have one unit do everything. But some units are just better at basically everything.

Amelia's only real weakness is her shitty Join Situation. Ironically, she'll end up better if you go Knight > General, but it's usually better if she goes Cavalier first because it makes training her a hell of a lot easier.

[Tino]

Also, it's a Knight's job to form a wall in front of your team. That's their job, right? No, because that means you move your team only four or less spaces a turn, which is hihgly lollable. That's why their job is to fight things as well, and they have a hard time doing that due to their shitty Mov.

The same applies here, sort of. Amelia fights things, Dozla fights things. Amelia has the possibility of doing other things that benefit the team as well, only making her a much more valuable unit.

[sandmanccl]

Just because you don't appreciate how awesome a unit is because you focus on downsides, doesn't mean that moving your army ahead only 4 or 5 spaces a turn is a bad strategy. The vast majority of the time, you get muddled up with enemies in a round or two even if you move ahead all 8 spaces a paladin can provide, so you're not actually progressing further into the map in the same number of turns. It's just that if you leave them behind, they can catch up sooner.

If you don't understand strategy, that's fine. I just question why you play a strategy RPG.

[Tino]

Personal strategies/playing styles don't matter anyway, because everybody uses/has a different one.

And I perfectly understand strategy, and beating the game faster and without problems > beating the game slower by moving only four spaces every time and with problems, because sometimes you indeed need to move fast to reach a certain character/village/etc.

[DeSu]

You guys are joking, right?

Tell me you're joking.

This isn't Disgaea. You can't make one unit do everything for you.

1) Disgaea is amazing and you win for playing it.

2) Amelia + General/Great Knight = WTC

WTC + Good HP, Good Def, Good Avoid = Situation control.

The only thing Amelia can't do that other units can is fly, walk on water/mountains, and steal. That's about it.

[sandmanccl]

Personal strategies/playing styles don't matter anyway, because everybody uses/has a different one.

And I perfectly understand strategy, and beating the game faster and without problems > beating the game slower by moving only four spaces every time and with problems, because sometimes you indeed need to move fast to reach a certain character/village/etc.

Which is why you send your fliers or horsemen over to that certain character/village/etc.

It's not rocket science, man. Play to your unit's strengths and you'll do better, guaranteed.

@ Karol:

First, thanks. Second, I don't like Great Knights a whole lot because 6 movement on a horse isn't very good. If there's even the slightest bit of terrain to slow you down, you're better off as a General because horses can't move over mountains and lose massive movement in forests. I'd rather take the superior stats of a General because they are pretty much the exact same class.

[Tino]

Which is why you send your fliers or horsemen over to that certain character/village/etc.

And guess what? Amelia is one of those. Woot!

[sandmanccl]

I never once said Amelia is a bad unit. I think she's pretty damn awesome, and was easily my best unit the first time I beat the game.

I'm just saying, Dozla isn't half bad and thinking he's absolutely terrible is your own loss.

[Tino]

I just proved how terrible his offense is, and how below average his durability is.

He sucks. Prove me wrong.

[sandmanccl]

Videos coming in a couple months.

Stay tuned.

[Tino]

Point is that videos don't prove anything, because they're all personal experience, which don't matter a thing in debates like this.

[sandmanccl]

So actually playing the game doesn't matter for the point of debating how to play the game.

Right.

[Tino]

Many people have many different playing styles and strategies on how to beat certain points in certain chapters. No, you indeed can't prove how to play the game.

[Florete]

But how can a unit be proven bad if he can show you how said unit can be used wisely and very strategically, and effectively be a good unit?

[Swordsalmon]

It's wiser to throw a couple of excellent characters into the enemy and let them kill everything. >__<

[Big Klingy]

It all comes down to your playing style. In my opinion, I'd take soneone who starts out crap but ends up awesome over someone starts out good but ends up medeocre any day.

Though that's probably because my playing style has always been: Judge someone by how they end up, not how they start off.

Amelia seems similar to Meg, and since I defend Meg, I therefore defend Amelia as well.

I will admit that her choice of classes dosn't really suit her, so she's probably the weakest of the three trainees. (assuming all have reached Lv. 20)

Also (because I don't think anyone has mentioned this) best thing about the trainees is not uber growths, it's those 10 extra levels they get.

[Defeatist Elitist]

But how can a unit be proven bad if he can show you how said unit can be used wisely and very strategically, and effectively be a good unit?

Gau~

Alright, this is the basic idea here. With "strategy" you can use almost any unit, it's a fact. So, with strategy, Dozla could be incredibly effective. But most other characters are at least as effective WITHOUT strategy, and thus would be far more effective WITH strategy. What I think you guys aren't quite getting is that we know how the game is played. We understand the strategy. Strategy has no bearing on a units usefulness.

In addition, every single person has a different playstyle, so debating takes all of them into consideration, which is essentially the same as taking none of them into consideration.

So basically, Dozla is bad because the amount of effort/strategy/thought it takes to effectively use him could be used to use another unit EVEN MORE EFFECTIVELY. By no means should you never use him, or should you think he can't BE used. He's just NOT AS GOOD as a lot of other characters.

[Florete]

Gau~

Perfect.

But I get all of it. I completely understand. But do you understand my side of things? Any unit that can be used effectively and to your advantage can't be considered definitely bad. This is another reason I don't like debates and tier lists, because they make it seem like characters are absolutely horrible. I think Nino is a good character because she fits my playstyle. I don't care if you can "prove" me wrong.

Note: I still don't think Dozla is any good.

Edit: That Nino thing was only an example. Please don't start a Nino debate.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Defeatist Elitist]

Perfect.

But I get all of it. I completely understand. But do you understand my side of things? Any unit that can be used effectively and to your advantage can't be considered definitely bad. This is another reason I don't like debates and tier lists, because they make it seem like characters are absolutely horrible. I think Nino is a good character because she fits my playstyle. I don't care if you can "prove" me wrong.

Note: I still don't think Dozla is any good.

Edit: That Nino thing was only an example. Please don't start a Nino debate.

Maybe I should clarify.

When I say bad, I mean bad in comparison with the other characters. Just using that example, I would say Nino is bad, because she is not as good as many other characters. That is a statement that overall will generally be true.

So, you say you don't think Dozla is any good, we say he's bad. It's pretty much the same thing.

[sandmanccl]

My whole point is that when comparing characters, compare people who fulfill similar roles. I don't compare Saleh to Seth. They don't fulfill the same combat role.