Dungeons, what works, what doesn't?

[Jotari]

This thread will talk quite a lot about how dungeons were used in Shadows of Valentia but since I want it to be about dungeons as a basic concept and what they can or can't do in the series, I'm putting it here rather than in the Shadows of Valentia section.

I had a lot of fun playing the dungeons in Shadows of Valentia, for the most part, but I think they were pretty badly handled in some regards.

#1, Fatigue was useless. Food was so abundant and dungeons were so small that fatigue never once was a prominent problem for me. Even in Thabes. I'm happy to see it come back into the series as a mechanic but really it was so completely inconsequential in my playing that it amounts to a complete waste of development time.

#2, They're too easy (and too cheap). So because you're fighting a lot of encounters and can't save in between they have to be easy than the regular map battles. But the developers also want to make it so they're not too easy so , otherwise the player could just auto grind there all day. To solve this they throw an occasional hard encounter into the mix that the player actually has to focus to beat. In practise this led me into a false sense of security in dungeons where I would play mindlessly until something screwed me over suddenly because I wasn't paying attention to the enemy stats. This isn't good design imo. It just leads to tedium.

#3, The encounters are quite meaningless. In early game they can grant a lot of exp but as the curve increases fighting enemies quickly becomes nothing but a waste of time. Most RPGs will grant money for every group of enemies you encounter but in Shadows of Valentia wether the enemies carry silver is random and just as often as not they are empty handed.

I think the way to fix all of these problems is quite simple, don't heal everyone at the end of battle. If HP carried on between encounters (as it does in almost every other RPG out there) then it doesn't matter how easy the encounters are. You're still going to have to think when you play them to ensure you win with maximum efficiency. Just Blitz and skipping all the action might net a win but it could put you in a much worse position for further encounters. This in turn would make food a much more valuable resource as it would be needed to heal characters (though if you're regularly healing characters fatigue would still be pointless so maybe have a choice to heal HP or Fatigue or maybe make separate items for doing one of the two). It could even be an incentive to get into battles as you could heal using your Cleric to maximise your resources. But even with that potential abuse aside (it would work better in a game with staves), an encounter would still be meaningful as it would be something that's actually affecting your play through rather than a pointless waste of a minute and a half.

Anyway despite those complaints I actually did enjoy playing the dungeons quite a bit. It's something new to the series (in the sense that Gaiden barely had them to begin with) and did lead to a different experience. What's your opinions on dungeons in Shadows of Valentia and their potential in the series as a whole?

[eclipse]

Eh.

If the later dungeons made me feel like I was doing SOMETHING right (as opposed to gaining some piddling amount of experience), it would've felt more rewarding.  Instead, it's a series of "OH SHIT" moments, followed by what felt like an underwhelming reward.

Carrying over HP between fights wouldn't have made a huge impact IMO.  Heal up with Tatiana, have someone else heal up Tatiana, then end the map.  One unit is missing 1 HP, everyone else is close to full.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

While grinding the same rooms, I noticed that the breakable objects were 100% empty after a while. That's rather odd, since you'd expect it to be random loot all the time, but instead items just dry up permanently for that game file. Dunno if cutting grass has the same effect, I'm not about to start cutting every inch of grass in a room to check.

I definitely wish more enemies dropped silver purses, as that seems to be unique only to rare enemy spawns. Silver marks are pretty scarce in this game, and it's a shame since I really enjoyed this game's version of forging weapons. Plus the only rare enemies that seem to give inflated experience are the golden entombed. Big bad boss type enemies that glow yellow only give slightly more exp as a result of being at a higher level, and that's pretty underwhelming

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Eh.

If the later dungeons made me feel like I was doing SOMETHING right (as opposed to gaining some piddling amount of experience), it would've felt more rewarding.  Instead, it's a series of "OH SHIT" moments, followed by what felt like an underwhelming reward.

Carrying over HP between fights wouldn't have made a huge impact IMO.  Heal up with Tatiana, have someone else heal up Tatiana, then end the map.  One unit is missing 1 HP, everyone else is close to full.

Well that's why I acknowledge it would work bettering a game with staves but I think it still would have helped somewhat. Tatiana healing everyone is just as broken during maps as it is (and overall she's only around for like the final dungeon and Thabes unless you do Fear Shrine after getting her).

3 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

While grinding the same rooms, I noticed that the breakable objects were 100% empty after a while. That's rather odd, since you'd expect it to be random loot all the time, but instead items just dry up permanently for that game file. Dunno if cutting grass has the same effect, I'm not about to start cutting every inch of grass in a room to check.

I definitely wish more enemies dropped silver purses, as that seems to be unique only to rare enemy spawns. Silver marks are pretty scarce in this game, and it's a shame since I really enjoyed this game's version of forging weapons. Plus the only rare enemies that seem to give inflated experience are the golden entombed. Big bad boss type enemies that glow yellow only give slightly more exp as a result of being at a higher level, and that's pretty underwhelming

Drop rates are reduced by a third every time you leave a room until you exit the dungeon.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Drop rates are reduced by a third every time you leave a room until you exit the dungeon.

This....lines up with my experience. Since I made characters fight long past the point they got fatigued and began using provisions to stay in the dungeon and clear out my convoy space.

Anyway, as far as what works, the booby trapped chest room in the Sylvan Shrine (alm's route, act 3) is my favorite dungeon specific part of the game. You walk past cages of monsters, find a chest at the end of the room, and you hear a noise upon opening it. Classic DnD moment. And if you're quick, you can actually make a beeline back to the exit by dashing and not having to fight the enemies. Other games would take control from the player and force you to fight them. And suddenly dashing is validated as a gameplay mechanic too.

My general problem with dungeon crawling in this game is that it's too much like dungeon crawling in other games. Here's an empty room with a patrolling enemy and breakable objects with random, useless loot. The magic map is so detailed and gets drawn as you explore that you can go through a dungeon completely by just looking at the bottom screen (go ahead, try it). The battles feature no terrain, and don't conform to the environment surrounding where the fight started. And if you want to retreat, you must fight until turn 3, where most of the enemies are dead anyway after having reached you. It's faster to fight them off on Normal mode. On hard mode, it's merely a test of the player forming a box of units around their squishy clerics. The only sin they didn't pull with dungeons in this game is that they're not randomly generated. Good on them, I guess.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Didn't tackle Thabes yet, but I agree that dungeons were underwhelming (though they looked nice). The first duo was okay due to being the first dungeons, and I'm willing to forgive the Secret Shrine being it's a secret. But the Lost Treescape wasn't puzzling enough, nor was Duma Tower (though its fights were fairly tricky), the Sylvan Shrine was a step back from the Deliverance Hideout. The only dungeon that really clicked for me was Fear Mountain Shrine, it's theme and its layout were solid.

Not being able to flee encounters as soon as they began was also annoying given how it was sometimes tricky to avoid them. Making it like TMS where your sword strike simply knocks the foe down for a while, with you only engaging the enemy in battle with an advantage if you touch them while knocked down, would have been so much better (why didn't IS mimic that?). At least the battles are fairly short in duration.

Provisions and alcohol were indeed too plentiful and too useless, and given the generous drops of them in dungeons, it isn't like you really need to stock up on them in advance.

[Thane]

HYA HEY HYA EEEEY! HYA HEY HYA EEEEY!

I swear it was almost like playing Zelda there for a while with all the shouts and grass cutting.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

Personally I wouldn't be disappointed if they never come back; it was cool at first, but after a while it got repetitive. It doesn't help that the running controls are really bad in dungeons. Alm & Celica loved crashing into walls, it got more annoying when all I wanted to do was, go to the Mila Shrine to promote someone and get out.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, I'm a Spheal said:

Personally I wouldn't be disappointed if they never come back; it was cool at first, but after a while it got repetitive. It doesn't help that the running controls are really bad in dungeons. Alm & Celica loved crashing into walls, it got more annoying when all I wanted to do was, go to the Mila Shrine to promote someone and get out.

I actually found the movement controls to be excellent. It makes avoiding enemies a very balanced challenge.

[Shoblongoo]

Like--Play NetHack or Sleash'Em or Stone Soup, or any dedicated roguelike dungeon crawler to see how to implement the feature correctly (and how satisfying it feels to clear the dungeon, when the game really makes you work for it)

Randomize every dungeon so that you never get the same dungeon twice: every time you go in its different enemy groups and different traps and different loot in different places.

...as opposed to the monotonous "okay...i'm entering fear mountain. This group of arcanists spawns when I walk in. Then theres the room with the gargoyles. This path takes me to the speed ring; that path takes me to the blessed bow.
  
It really shouldn't even be a hard thing to implement. Fire Emblem runs on RNG. Use it. 
  

Edited July 6, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

Like--Play NetHack or Sleash'Em or Stone Soup, or any dedicated roguelike dungeon crawler to see how to implement the feature correctly (and how satisfying it feels to clear the dungeon, when the game really makes you work for it)

Randomize every dungeon so that you never get the same dungeon twice: every time you go in its different enemy groups and different traps and different loot in different places.

...as opposed to the monotonous "okay...i'm entering fear mountain. This group of arcanists spawns when I walk in. Then theres the room with the gargoyles. This path takes me to the speed ring; that path takes me to the blessed bow.
  
It really shouldn't even be a hard thing to implement. Fire Emblem runs on RNG. Use it. 
  

I agree that the dungeons might work better if randomized, but only to an extent. Don't make it like Mystery Dungeon. I love Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, but due to how battles work in Fire Emblem, it might make randomized dungeons tedious. Of course, most dungeons have only one floor, so it doesn't matter, but imagine if something like Thabes was randomized every time. It'd be hard to prepare.

I say just randomize the enemy encounters.

[Tamanoir]

On ‎05‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 9:23 AM, Jotari said:

I think the way to fix all of these problems is quite simple, don't heal everyone at the end of battle. If HP carried on between encounters (as it does in almost every other RPG out there) then it doesn't matter how easy the encounters are. You're still going to have to think when you play them to ensure you win with maximum efficiency. Just Blitz and skipping all the action might net a win but it could put you in a much worse position for further encounters. This in turn would make food a much more valuable resource as it would be needed to heal characters (though if you're regularly healing characters fatigue would still be pointless so maybe have a choice to heal HP or Fatigue or maybe make separate items for doing one of the two). It could even be an incentive to get into battles as you could heal using your Cleric to maximise your resources. But even with that potential abuse aside (it would work better in a game with staves), an encounter would still be meaningful as it would be something that's actually affecting your play through rather than a pointless waste of a minute and a half.

So... You want to removes tedious... by adding more tedious ? 

Well, why not, but that's not solving the mai  porblem. Food 

The solution is actually quite easy. Keeps fatigue, but makes items that heals fighting rarer (and makes money appears more often.)
And makes foodbuyable in town. Not only does it makes it more logical (because every items you find in dungeons should makes you sick 99% of the time reasonalbly.), but it actually makes fatigue meaningfull. Bcause it means you need to be prepared before exploring a dungeon. 
That's the logic that was behind breakable weapons. I wasn't a fan of breakable weapons, but dungeons are a way of making them meaningfull, (like with Tower of Valnii, and the Ruins in Sacred Swords.), since it means you need to prepare your trips.

So, to recap : 

• Keeps fatigue (some changes ca be made to the system. Must be discussed)
• Replaces all food with money (You can keep the stat boosters, or food obtained from monsters, like Dagon Fillet).
  Having every encounter drops a specific amount of money after battle is a good solution as well (depending of the monsters and level, Like a revenant is 10 Silver + 2*Level, a Skeleton 15 + 3*Level, and so on.)
• Makes food only buyable in shops (you can raises the cost as well) (some may still be available in villages, but reduces the number and food quality (Flour/Bread pièces instead f a full bread). You can even adds a CCooking system similar to the Forging ones, but that's another topic

A system that may be fun is making classes relevant, like you need to have X Knights to move a large boulder blocking the path, or Something. Not sure how relevant it can be.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Tamanoir said:

So... You want to removes tedious... by adding more tedious ? 

Well, why not, but that's not solving the mai  porblem. Food 

The solution is actually quite easy. Keeps fatigue, but makes items that heals fighting rarer (and makes money appears more often.)
And makes foodbuyable in town. Not only does it makes it more logical (because every items you find in dungeons should makes you sick 99% of the time reasonalbly.), but it actually makes fatigue meaningfull. Bcause it means you need to be prepared before exploring a dungeon. 
That's the logic that was behind breakable weapons. I wasn't a fan of breakable weapons, but dungeons are a way of making them meaningfull, (like with Tower of Valnii, and the Ruins in Sacred Swords.), since it means you need to prepare your trips.

So, to recap : 

• Keeps fatigue (some changes ca be made to the system. Must be discussed)
• Replaces all food with money (You can keep the stat boosters, or food obtained from monsters, like Dagon Fillet).
  Having every encounter drops a specific amount of money after battle is a good solution as well (depending of the monsters and level, Like a revenant is 10 Silver + 2*Level, a Skeleton 15 + 3*Level, and so on.)
• Makes food only buyable in shops (you can raises the cost as well) (some may still be available in villages, but reduces the number and food quality (Flour/Bread pièces instead f a full bread). You can even adds a CCooking system similar to the Forging ones, but that's another topic

A system that may be fun is making classes relevant, like you need to have X Knights to move a large boulder blocking the path, or Something. Not sure how relevant it can be.

Two negatives make a positive. Though seriously speaking it's tedious now because its mindless. If you're actually focusing and playing the game then the tedium shouldn't exist.

[Slumber]

On the whole, I like dungeons, and think they should be kept for future games. They were a fun way to present "random battles" in an FE game, and it gave you a way to explore a portion of the world, which is something I think Fire Emblem could always use. Finding new items and shrines as rewards for completing them felt nice, and the possibility of running into super enemies was a neat idea.

That said, they need to be long enough and difficult enough to seem like getting into battles is an actual dire situation. Or maybe units don't replenish health after each encounter. Either way, the balance was off, and they were far too abusable.