Jotari Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 So Shadows of Valentia gave the player the ability to turn back time and undo mistakes. I'd like to get people's general opinion on whether this is a good feature or what needs to be improved on it. I reckon some people would decry it as further casualisation of the series but personally I really like the idea that you can undo some mistakes. Because sometimes you do sink an hour into a chapter and suddenly loose a unit because you do something stupid. That being said I didn't really use the turnwheel all that much in Shadows of Valentia because I thought its uses were a consumable (maybe it would have been better if they were) and by the end you can have like 12 opportunities to undo mistakes per battle (or dungeon) which basically makes any battle unloosable unless you're really incompetent. So maybe it should be nerfed a little but overall it is a feature I would like to see kept around in future games. What's your opinion on the matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I like having an undo button, but being able to undo so many times is too strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YingofDarkness Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) I barley used Mila's Turnwheel, but I was happy to have it when those few times did occur. I know I am going to be using it a lot when I eventually get around to doing the last dungeon. We did get a lot of uses by the end though so maybe just have it so that you only get three permanent uses of the turnwheel, and every time you use one you can't get it back. I feel like they only gave us so many in Echoes because of the Thabes dungeon, kind of like how the Overclasses are also there to help cheese it. Maybe they won't give us as many in the next game if it comes back. In future installments they can also do it like the Light's Blessings in Heroes. The extra cogs work like a consumable item you can collect throughout your journey, but instead of only activating it when all your units are dead, only the main lord/s will be able to use it from the convoy. That might make players horde them till the final battle, but the option is still there. Edited July 12, 2017 by YingofDarkness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elincia Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Hoping it becomes a stable in the series. It helps in letting you take more risks and abuse the RNG to your advantage, though they should probably limit the amount of uses a bit more, never found myself ever really running out of uses for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Way too many uses for a game that lacks a lunatic difficulty. But as long as that aspect of the turnwheel is properly balanced, I think it's an excellent addition that absolutely should return. Fire Emblem is an RNG based strategy game. And I was never truly engaged when playing on a harder difficulty, since the right decisions could still result in death against stat-inflated enemies. Conquest did more with its difficulty settings, but this isn't a thread analyzing difficulty. Having just one use of turnwheel per map will stave off the majority of bitter resets. Hotter take: Turnwheel should replace the concept of casual mode. Have us all play the same game again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 11 minutes ago, Gustavos said: Hotter take: Turnwheel should replace the concept of casual mode. Have us all play the same game again. I would love this, though I'm not a Casual player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 The Turnwheel didn't change the RNG in Echoes so it was pointless for me for the most time. Anyways it's a more elegant option thanĀ FE10's quick battle save and causal mode. Seriously it should replace CM. You learn more in FE by testing out the limitsĀ of all your strategical possibilites than just byĀ hit and hope and wait till everyone's back in the next chapter. A mode with infinite turnwheels would be a way better mode than casual mode to let learn newcomers learn FE. Ā Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doof Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 25 minutes ago, Reimu Hakurei said: The Turnwheel didn't change the RNG in Echoes so it was pointless for me for the most time. Anyways it's a more elegant option thanĀ FE10's quick battle save and causal mode. Seriously it should replace CM. You learn more in FE by testing out the limitsĀ of all your strategical possibilites than just byĀ hit and hope and wait till everyone's back in the next chapter. A mode with infinite turnwheels would be a way better mode than casual mode to let learn newcomers learn FE. Ā I'm pretty sure it did, since it allowed me to evade hits/crits from enemies that I took before the rewind, it just didn't change the RNG on level ups, which is fixed at the beginning of the battle. But yeah, the Turnwheel is a welcome addition and it sort of makes Casual Mode useless. I hope it returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I hope it's just a one time thing. I feel like Echoes was balanced around it, and i'd rather this didn't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I think it works in SoV but not really for the Classic experience in most games. SoV had high enemy density so it was a chore to check the range and stats of every enemy. I played somewhat recklessly and undid any fatal mistakes. It's good for dungeons too where the player won't be able to save their progress between battles. Other games don't have these features so I don't need a turnwheel for them. I wouldn't mind it replacing casual mode, however. Undoing your moves is a better teacher than your characters never dying off for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, NekoKnight said: I think it works in SoV but not really for the Classic experience in most games. SoV had high enemy density so it was a chore to check the range and stats of every enemy. I played somewhat recklessly and undid any fatal mistakes. It's good for dungeons too where the player won't be able to save their progress between battles. Other games don't have these features so I don't need a turnwheel for them. I wouldn't mind it replacing casual mode, however. Undoing your moves is a better teacher than your characters never dying off for good. What? Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia have some of the lowest enemy density in the series. Unless you let a Cantor get out of hand that is. This is the game that throws a map with only three units at you. Edited July 12, 2017 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, Jotari said: What? Kaiden and Shadows of Valentia have some of the lowest enemy density in the series. Unless you let a Cantor get out of hand that is. This is the game that throws a map with only three units at you. Yes, Cantor bullshit every other fucking map but sometimes regular enemies come in packs too. But sure, give the single map with 3 enemies as an example. I should add that longer range spells and archers increase the number of things that I have to check for range amd damage. The Turn Wheel reduces the tedium. Ā Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 18 minutes ago, NekoKnight said: Yes, Cantor bullshit every other fucking map but sometimes regular enemies come in packs too. But sure, give the single map with 3 enemies as an example. I should add that longer range spells and archers increase the number of things that I have to check for range amd damage. The Turn Wheel reduces the tedium. Ā The three enemy map is just the most extreme example but a lot of other maps are on the low side too. Just before that map you fight in a forest with just seven enemies. After it you assault Desaix's fortress which has a whopping ten enemies (one of which is a cantor). Ā After that you fight twenty enemies which are split into two groups on either side of the map. High for Gaiden but quite low for most games. The next map battle you fight ten units again and by this point you can deploy 12 units and actually outnumber the enemy, which is very common in Gaiden. The games enemy density is definitely on the low side compared to other games in the series. The difference is that they actively approach you unlike other games where they sit patiently as you make your way across the map. The maps in Gaiden are more arenas that actual maps. Gaiden you do definitely have to consider your actions but it's not because of high enemy density, the opposite really enemies are fewer but because of that they're stronger so what individual enemies can do affects you more. But in terms off the volume of enemies, Gaiden is definitely on the low side compared to other games. Yeah Cantors are a thing but so is Expel. Sourced here:Ā http://www.fireemblemwod.com/fe2/gaguia/gacapitulo3a.htmĀ I realise I was saying Gaiden for most of this post but don't think they added much more enemies in the remake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 The Turnwheel I originally refrained from using completely, and while I broke and actually began using it, it was only in caseĀ somebody died, which wasn't too often given I avoided taking overly risky manuevers. This said, it works for SoV. Witch AI is quite random, and once in a while, the Witches might actually try to gang up on someone and thus kill them, which they normally wouldn't do. We also have dungeons. In normal FE games we get save after almost every fight, but in dungeons you don't have that luxury. While the fights are fairly easy, the dungeonsĀ and Mila Statues are often nearby, Duma Tower at least has battles that can get fairly hairy, and since there are no saves on the way up, having the Turnwheel is nice in case somebody dies in one of the later fight (yet, we get 9 Sacred SpringĀ revives, so thats a counterargument).Ā Hit rates on the lower and thus more random side might also justify the Turnwheel to some extent as well. Mitigating the aggravation of fatal random enemy crits was a boon too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book Bro Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I like it. It's like a quicker reset button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Serious question. Is there any difference between using Mila's Turnwheel and playing Casual mode with battle saves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Ronnie said: Serious question. Is there any difference between using Mila's Turnwheel and playing Casual mode with battle saves? With Mila's turnwheel, you still have to make a conscious effort to correct your mistakes. Requiring at least a bit of focus and understanding of the game. On Casual mode, you just have to keep your lords alive. All other mistakes have no threatened penalty or long term repurcussions. Plus the turnwheel is a constant choice. Classic mode is a permanent choice, and if you want to start taking the game seriously, you have to start over. Classic mode in Fates allowed you to switch to Casual in the middle of a playthrough, but not the other way around. Edited July 13, 2017 by Gustavos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediocreLee Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I would definitely like to see the mechanic of Mila's Turnwheel return, obviously not calling it Mila's Turnwheel depending on the game, since it reduces the amount of times I would have to reset (although it's still a force of habit to reset when someone dies anyway). Ā Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Sun Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Keep it. Implement it in the story in a way that it makes basic sense and it'll be alright (oh how I wish the MyCastle feature was implemented in the story better). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Sen Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I'm firmly on the side of keeping it. As long as they keep it limited uses and balance it well, I can't see any real reason for it not to come back. I do think the level of max resets should be trimmed a little, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Ronnie said: Serious question. Is there any difference between using Mila's Turnwheel and playing Casual mode with battle saves? There's a pretty major difference between the turnwheel and casual mode since in Casual mode you could build a strategy around sacrificing your units. But the turnwheel is pretty similar to the idea of battle saves. Except it's more player friendly since you can return to any prior point, not just one you selected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogla Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I'd like for this mechanic to make a return, but yeah 12 uses in one battle/dungeon is a bit overkill. Ideally it'd be the lord character's personal skill; maybe make it like 5 uses max or a Light's Blessing effect once per battle and then do away with Classic/Phoenix mode altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB44 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I do like it a lot. After all, a lot us here use save states when playing the ROMs of older games anyways, so this mechanic is just a way bringing that to an actual console and streamlining the experience some more. Granted you do get a lot of cogs throughout so maybe it could be refined in later games, but if anything, it serves as a quicker way to get back to the beginning of the map if one insists on not abusing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Doof said: I'm pretty sure it did, since it allowed me to evade hits/crits from enemies that I took before the rewind, it just didn't change the RNG on level ups, which is fixed at the beginning of the battleĀ No, it didn't. You had to change your order of actions to affect the RNG. If you did the same, the result was the exact same before using the turnwheel.Also, please. Why can't I just post below a quote box? Is it really too much asking SF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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