Fire Emblem and end game content

[Tolvir]

Shadows of Valentia's Chapter 6 is something I really enjoyed about the game. While it wasnt exactly executed in the best way, I liked that there was a sort of endgame to play once the game was finished. It added a lot to an otherwise straightforward game. Awakening also had it to a lesser extent between its Apotheosis DLC, Future Past DLC, and its free download content. And this got me thinking about Fire Emblem and end game content. Is this something that should return for future games and remakes?

In my opinion, I think it should. I think endgame is something that adds a lot to Fire Emblem outside of just its main story, and its something that a lot of RPGs and other games do. From Dark Souls NG+ options to Final Fantasy 15's unlocked content after beating the game, they add to the game's experience. Of course this doesnt mean a game has to have it in order to be replayable or be enjoyable. Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn has no endgame content to speak of yet is highly replayable. But its something I think can add a lot to Fire Emblem.

How would end game for Fire Emblem be added though? We have two exampled of how it worked, but one is quite exclusive to the way the game is played with Dungeons in Gaiden/Echoes, and the other was done with the idea of it being call backs to previous games in a thought to be dying series. One option I think can be used is one from another Fire Emblem game, Fire Emblem Heroes. I think the idea of Tempest Trials can translate really well over to an actual Fire Emblem game on a console. Between the randomized enemies, and rewards for points I think this could add a good end game to the series. Pair it with the renown rewards from Fates and Awakening, and it could add a lot to the experience of Fire Emblem. Obviously though, it would need some changes from its Heroes counterpart. I think there are a few options in how it could be structured.

First option would probably require the least amount of work. Reusing maps from the game itself. Typically seen as a negative thing in Fire Emblem, and for good reason, Heroes does it quite well by throwing in randomized enemies and skills into the mix. Doing the same here, and you could play on the same maps you just went through, with a different experience each time. Adding to this idea, they could also recreate a few iconic maps from previous games in the series, like Elincia's Gambit or Greith's Citadel and it would work very well.

Another option that would take much more work would be creating maps specifically for this, or maybe even making some type of randomized map. Of course randomized maps could be disastrous as there is typically a lot of work that goes into the design of a Fire Emblem map, but maybe by making certain variables randomized, like tile set and enemy placement could work. Creating maps can also work as well, but would require a lot more work on behalf of the developers, this could also take away from the game's development as a whole due to it just adding a lot more work onto the game itself, but it could work well as a sort of DLC content.

To add to this, I think the point system of the Tempest Trials can translate over well too. Combined with what was renown rewards from the 3Ds games, and some of Heroes concepts it could give a good reason to go through the endgame. Throw in some consumable items, weapons, and stat boosters like the renown rewards do would be a good  starting place. Making them also go across all playthroughs could help, and make other playthroughs more fun. I also think taking Heroes concept of adding in some exclusive content to this could be interesting for a Fire Emblem game. Maybe by making extra characters available by reaching various points could be a good reward. A good option for this would be taking a bit from Path of Radiance's trail maps and making the game's villains and bosses available for use. Amiibo's could also come into play here to unlock useable characters for the purpose of this as well.

There are also a few other options for end game content, with Apotheosis style maps or maybe some sort of endless map that has a constant stream of reinforcements to attempt to see how many rounds you can go without being wiped out, each round getting progressively harder.

Any thoughts on this?

Edited July 31, 2017 by Tolvir

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

To be honest, instead of endgame extras, I much prefer the New Game+ option, where things change on your second playthrough onward, perhaps with new events, different developments and more endings, which is something FE7 and FE10 had. I am, for some reason, obsessed with this kind of thing.

[Armagon]

For shorter games, such as Echoes, i think i would prefer a Ch.6 post-game style content. For longer games, such as the Tellius games, New Game+ would be preferred so you carry over your stats from the previous playthrough to absolutely destroy everything in your path.

That Tempest Trials idea does sound pretty sweet tho. I also want to see the Trial Maps return.

[Darros]

Tbh New Game+ would be pretty interesting if you retained the same stats but you could change the difficulty. Imagine if harder difficulties unlocked as you go - so enemies would start off promoted because they'd expect you to come in with endgame stats and all that jazz. I'm iffy about various paths and stuff - Fates handled it extremely poorly and FE10's differences were very minor

unless youre like obsessed with Pelleas or Sephiran I guess

in the end.

[Topaz Light]

I'm actually not really so big on content that's strictly New Game+-exclusive, because the restriction is almost never something that makes sense in-universe and mostly just ends up being really annoying if the content locked behind a New Game+ is something that's actually meaningful and substantial.

As for a real "post-game", I'd say it depends on how much sense it makes. I'd be all for stuff that actually makes sense and ties into the story or at least can be tied into it in functional ways, but for other stuff I could kinda take it or leave it, honestly.

[X-Naut]

One postgame idea I had is that Anna offers to throw a festival celebrating your successful campaign that lets you train/optimize characters, fill out the support roster, battle Einherjar teams from other games, replay prior chapters and play a series of postgame challenges. Then when all's said and done you can talk to Anna to conclude the festival, which rerolls the credits with updated epilogues.

[Slumber]

I like end-game content. Just as long as it's not kind of bullshit like chapter 6 of SoV. A more drawn out, gradual challenge that doesn't feel like it needs incessant grinding would be ideal.

Something that gives you a reason to train up Ests, something that gives you a reason to diversify your army more than just "Who's on a horse?", which is how the "ideal path to endgame" usually ends up.

[Zelgius]

I think Awakening's endgame content did it the best so far. Though it was through the form of DLC, I liked that you had R&R3 as a maxed stat challenge with some really interesting characters to face, and then of course Apotheosis for the ultimate challenge. The best part of Apotheosis for me was after completing it once, I often went back with different types of teams. Fates' endgame was more to do with PvP, though to be fair that did hold interest for a good time and once again gave people a reason to max out characters and interact though my castle features.

Echoes' Act 6 was fun and interesting, but once completed that was it.

[Sire]

I typically don't mind New Game+, but the completionist in me dies every time I find out something is locked behind NG+ and it can take hours get to a place where something new/different happens. Sure, I can try speedrunning, but I like to take the time and experience absolutely everything the game has to offer.

I'm more of a fan of post-game content since I like sticking with my band of characters and optimizing the heck out of them instead of starting up multiple playthroughs. As for Fire Emblem, I enjoyed Sacred Stone's implementation of the Creature Campaign and the two side dungeons (the Tower and the Ruins). Echoe's Act VI was also fun since it had an "endgame dungeon" and I loved Awakening's "DLC postgame challenges" which required both optimization and tactics.

My ideal FE endgame content would essentially be a combination of these things.

1. Optional Side Dungeons/Maps with an "ultimate endgame dungeon" (Think Sacred Stones and Shadows of Valentia)
2. Super Challenging Maps with the Ultimate Challenge Map (Awakening Style)
3. Access to NPCs who are either treated solely as bonus characters or have a valid reason to join the party. (Sacred Stones did bonus characters well, I think. Awakening's  "detailed bonus characters" were nice to have, but the main story can be said to have suffered due to their implementation.)

[Nobody]

I think fire emblem is about tight strategical gameplay, that doesn't expect you to grind in order to overcome the powerful enemies, but rather come up with good strategies, which is also why I prefer the games to not have grinding. I feel like endgame content plays completely different (and worse) than main campaigns, since it tends to be a bunch of enemies with inflated stats unlike anything before the end of the game (like Tabes). So yeah, I don't really mind if IS does not add postgame content in the next Fire Emblem games.

[Tolvir]

10 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

To be honest, instead of endgame extras, I much prefer the New Game+ option, where things change on your second playthrough onward, perhaps with new events, different developments and more endings, which is something FE7 and FE10 had. I am, for some reason, obsessed with this kind of thing.

My only issue with this concept is FE10 really left a lot of important stuff out for the sake of other playthroughs. Pelleas, Sephiran, the special Soren and Ike support. All really interesting parts of the story left out for other playthroughs.

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

I like end-game content. Just as long as it's not kind of bullshit like chapter 6 of SoV. A more drawn out, gradual challenge that doesn't feel like it needs incessant grinding would be ideal.

Something that gives you a reason to train up Ests, something that gives you a reason to diversify your army more than just "Who's on a horse?", which is how the "ideal path to endgame" usually ends up.

I would definitely agree with that. I think minimal amounts of grinding needed would be a requirement for it. While I liked Thabes for the concept of an endgame dungeon, it did require too much grinding, and honestly taking a look at it from a design area it got quite boring with repeated hallways and enemies.

I think the best implemention of an end game dungeon, as far as remakes go, is FF1 on the GBA. It had added in 2 new dungeons, with a certain amount of levels with bosses from each game in the series up to Final Fantasy 6. It required no grinding in order to complete, but was challenging. It really added a lot to the game, one of them was even 99 levels if I remember correctly, and to a certain extent was randomized.

Maybe adding in challenges to the end game content would be a way of doing as you said and giving a reason for training others. Something almost like acheivements, but with actual rewards. Use x character to do x task, or use all x classes. Adding in a good reward for completing each, maybe an exclusive weapon for the class that is usable for NG+ or something along those lines.

1 hour ago, Sire said:

I typically don't mind New Game+, but the completionist in me dies every time I find out something is locked behind NG+ and it can take hours get to a place where something new/different happens. Sure, I can try speedrunning, but I like to take the time and experience absolutely everything the game has to offer.

I'm more of a fan of post-game content since I like sticking with my band of characters and optimizing the heck out of them instead of starting up multiple playthroughs. As for Fire Emblem, I enjoyed Sacred Stone's implementation of the Creature Campaign and the two side dungeons (the Tower and the Ruins). Echoe's Act VI was also fun since it had an "endgame dungeon" and I loved Awakening's "DLC postgame challenges" which required both optimization and tactics.

My ideal FE endgame content would essentially be a combination of these things.

1. Optional Side Dungeons/Maps with an "ultimate endgame dungeon" (Think Sacred Stones and Shadows of Valentia)
2. Super Challenging Maps with the Ultimate Challenge Map (Awakening Style)
3. Access to NPCs who are either treated solely as bonus characters or have a valid reason to join the party. (Sacred Stones did bonus characters well, I think. Awakening's  "detailed bonus characters" were nice to have, but the main story can be said to have suffered due to their implementation.)

I think NG+ should entirely only contain a more challenging experience, with the ability to use characters from another playthrough. I dont think major story content or important playable characters should be locked behind a NG+.

I think Path of Radiance did well in the trial maps you could unlock as far as access to NPCs go. Per how many times you completed the game you could unlock the games bosses like Petrine or Oliver for use in the Trial maps. Doing the same thing, except maybe expanding it to characters from previous games in the series could be fun.

4 hours ago, X-Naut said:

One postgame idea I had is that Anna offers to throw a festival celebrating your successful campaign that lets you train/optimize characters, fill out the support roster, battle Einherjar teams from other games, replay prior chapters and play a series of postgame challenges. Then when all's said and done you can talk to Anna to conclude the festival, which rerolls the credits with updated epilogues.

That is an interesting concept that can be explained in universe well enough too. That and it gives a good excuse to have Anna in the game. I think adding in challenge versions of previous maps could be a good idea too. Valkyria Chronicles had an extra difficulty (I think it was DLC though), that was unlocked after completing the game for all skirmishes. They were essentially challenges. Doing similar for Fire Emblem could work well.

1 hour ago, Nobody said:

I think fire emblem is about tight strategical gameplay, that doesn't expect you to grind in order to overcome the powerful enemies, but rather come up with good strategies, which is also why I prefer the games to not have grinding. I feel like endgame content plays completely different (and worse) than main campaigns, since it tends to be a bunch of enemies with inflated stats unlike anything before the end of the game (like Tabes). So yeah, I don't really mind if IS does not add postgame content in the next Fire Emblem games.

I can understand that, what about NG+ though? Allowing someone to use their characters from the previous playthrough again, with new enemy placement, higher level enemies, and a few other changes? That way it requires new strategies to complete.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd like to see hypothetical scenarios. For instance, something like Roy taking the Etrurian forces to Bern instead of going off to the Isles. Or Micaiah and Ike teaming up and defeating the Senate before the Medallion breaks. Or playing as the Corrinless side of BR/CQ and winning.

For the NG+ scenarios being described above, it reminds me of Advance Wars's Advance/Hard Campaigns (particularly AW2's). And the RPG aspect of FE would fade a little in favor of more strategy once everyone good and bad caps level- it'd also make those recent additions of personalized stat caps a bit more meaningful.

Trial Maps are good too.

Another idea would be a longer sub-campaign, if we were talking Jugdral for instance, Agustria and Silesia had rebellions independent of Seliph's, a ~10-15 chapter campaign telling the story of these other rebels would be good. At so many chapters it wouldn't be a fixed units scenario like Hidden Truths or Heirs of Fate, but an actual campaign, just on a smaller scale.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

18 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

To be honest, instead of endgame extras, I much prefer the New Game+ option, where things change on your second playthrough onward, perhaps with new events, different developments and more endings, which is something FE7 and FE10 had. I am, for some reason, obsessed with this kind of thing.

You mean replay bonus? Yeah thats super cool.

[Tolvir]

On 7/31/2017 at 11:34 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd like to see hypothetical scenarios. For instance, something like Roy taking the Etrurian forces to Bern instead of going off to the Isles. Or Micaiah and Ike teaming up and defeating the Senate before the Medallion breaks. Or playing as the Corrinless side of BR/CQ and winning.

For the NG+ scenarios being described above, it reminds me of Advance Wars's Advance/Hard Campaigns (particularly AW2's). And the RPG aspect of FE would fade a little in favor of more strategy once everyone good and bad caps level- it'd also make those recent additions of personalized stat caps a bit more meaningful.

Trial Maps are good too.

Another idea would be a longer sub-campaign, if we were talking Jugdral for instance, Agustria and Silesia had rebellions independent of Seliph's, a ~10-15 chapter campaign telling the story of these other rebels would be good. At so many chapters it wouldn't be a fixed units scenario like Hidden Truths or Heirs of Fate, but an actual campaign, just on a smaller scale.

Sub campaigns would be interesting. Resident Evil 4 did something similar. Once you beat the game, and I think this was the exclusive to the Gamecube version, was a side story where you played as one of the NPCs. It was really short, had a few bonuses for the main game, and filled in a few of the empty areas of the main story. It could work well for a Fire Emblem game, focusing on maybe a small task a few other characters did while the main characters did their job. I still think if Radiant Dawn ever gets a remake a fun idea for a challenge map is a really big defense map where you play all the characters left outside of the tower.