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Jugdral gets no love.....


Køkø
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2 hours ago, Køkø said:

Eh, that probably wouldn't be an issue. Being incinerated isn't exactly the most pleasant way to go but there's worse. It's not like they have to show any gore. Besides, sexuality seems to be more offensive than violence for some reason.

Blame our lingering Puritan values. :P:

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Also, the Battle of Belhalla would be tricky. Because that's probably the biggest, most dramatic scene in the entire franchise, and it's all about half of Sigurd's army getting immolated and killed. A scene like that can't really be glossed over, and if anything, would likely have to be done in proper CG... which would be weird, since, again, it's supposed to be a very brutal, graphic scene, based on official art of the scene.

I would actually love a full-scale scene of the Battle of Belhalla. Remember Awakening's opening movie? The imagery in that is pretty dark and I imagine they could do the Battle justice. I don't really see them censoring it, since you can get away with a lot more these days in games than you could back when the game was released.

Yeah... As much as it would have been cool to see the Japan-only FE games here, if they were localized when they were released, FE4 would have been hacked to hell and back by the censorship team, haha.

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

If anything, I'd say the rape/sex slavery(Deirdre, Lara and Leen) is the harder part to skirt around. I mean, they could simply write out the implications with Leen and Lara without changing much of anything, but Deirdre is brainwashed and turned into a breeding object as a plot point. Which is far from the darkest thing ever put in a video game, but definitely darker than would likely fly with NoA.

Shadows of Valentia managed to neatly slip in some sexual themes. A few things Gray says right before rescuing Clair are pretty suggestive, as I recall, not to mention that Slayde pretty much hints at pillaging Ram Village in the prologue, especially when he asks Gray if he has any sisters. That sort of thing would go over the head of younger players, since it's not too obvious of explicit.

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Path of Radiance needs a lot of re-balancing, and Radiant Dawn could nearly do with a complete structure overhaul.

It's less than the Jugdral games need, but again, Ike's more popular.

The weird thing about Ike is that pretty much nothing else from Tellius besides him is anywhere on the radar, thanks to Smash and to a lesser extent Heroes. Like, Tellius itself and the Tellius games aren't actually that popular, and a lot of people have never played the games, but it's the main character that everyone demands. They don't know a thing about Ike otherwise, lol.

5 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The reason I think the Jugdral games are underrepresented is the visuals. More specifically the colors of the maps, just a glance at Google (I didn't play the game yet mind you) the games look very murky with dark greens and blues , which is a steep constant compared to  the later games in the series, especially the GBA games that followed, for the average gamer I'm petty sure that they could choose the brighter visuals.

The second reason is the art style. I know that art is subjective, but the artwork for the game feels like a 90's anime. Which may not be everyone's cup of tea having most of the guy rocking mullets.

Sure, but remember that it's a video game that was developed in the 90s. So everything looking like a 90s anime is par for the course during the time. I'm pretty sure the art style would be updated, just like SoV's art style had a major update. A Jugdral remake in SoV's style would be pretty cool, imo.

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4 hours ago, Slumber said:

Fates was practically built off of incest that we didn't really find out WASN'T incest(For Hoshido, mostly) until late in the game.

And even then, Corrin boinking Azura(His/her actual, biological cousin) is hardly shied away from. And then given all of the weird outcomes you could have with kids in Awakening, I think it's safe to say cousin on cousin incest is cool with NoA, even by today's standards.

The one case of incest that isn't cousin on cousin in Genealogy is portrayed in an incredibly villainous light.

If anything, I'd say the rape/sex slavery(Deirdre, Lara and Leen) is the harder part to skirt around. I mean, they could simply write out the implications with Leen and Lara without changing much of anything, but Deirdre is brainwashed and turned into a breeding object as a plot point. Which is far from the darkest thing ever put in a video game, but definitely darker than would likely fly with NoA.

I won't talk about cousin incest because it isn't considered incest where I live and thus I don't really care. I can't see how it makes sense to claim that relationships between cousins are incest, but I suppose those things are meant to be arbitrary.

Before we knew about the non-incest part in Fates, it was impossible to complete a S-rank pair without reading the mandatory support explicitely stating it is not incest. There was never such a problem in Fates.

The only case of incest in FE4 is with Deirdre. I don't think Lachesis and Eldigan count because they love each other but restrain themselves from going farther than that platonic relationship. As for Deirdre, she never realized in life that Alvis was her brother, and he only learned about that fact later (before he had children, but after he fell in love with her). Again, not justifiable, but it makes Deirdre's side more sympathetic - if anything, she was a victim, and Alvis is pretty much established as a vilainous bastard anyway. Also, she wasn't "brainwashed and turned into a breeding object", because other than losing her memories of Sigurd and Seliph she remained the same and kept her own will.

If it gets that bad, can't NoA omit their incest from the story? They could claim both were [rare] descendants of the Lopt clan who met the criteria for Julius and use holy blood mixing shenanigans to justify why both have the same Loptyr blood. Basically, keep the story as it is, but say Alvis and Deirdre are not related at all.

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1 minute ago, Rapier said:

I won't talk about cousin incest because it isn't considered incest where I live and thus I don't really care. I can't see how it makes sense to claim that relationships between cousins are incest, but I suppose those things are meant to be arbitrary.

Before we didn't know about the non-incest part in Fates, it was impossible to complete a S-rank pair without reading the mandatory support explicitely stating it is not incest. There was never such a problem in Fates.

The only case of incest in FE4 is with Deirdre. I don't think Lachesis and Eldigan count because they love each other but restrain themselves from going farther than that platonic relationship. As for Deirdre, she never realized in life that Alvis was her brother, and he only learned about that fact later (before he had children, but after he fell in love with her). Again, not justifiable, but it makes Deirdre's side more sympathetic. Also, she wasn't "brainwashed and turned into a breeding object", because other than losing her memories of Sigurd and Seliph she remained the same and kept her own will.

If it gets that bad, can't NoA omit their incest from the story? They could claim both were [rare] descendants of the Lopt clan who met the criteria for Julius and use holy blood mixing shenanigans to justify why both have the same Loptyr blood. Basically, keep the story as it is, but say Alvis and Deirdre are not related at all.

There are other bits besides Dierdre. Holyn and Ayra are fairly closely related(It's never stated, but they're both part of the Royal Family and both are direct descendants of Odo.

There's the pairing between Edain's children and Brigid's children(Which, since they're identical twins, makes the cousin pairings here genetically half-siblings).

Sannan can hook up with Larcei, his niece(They have the highest relationship value with each other than other potential mates).

One MAJOR one I forgot, is that the game heavily implies that Sylvia is Claude's missing sister, and they start with a very high relationship value, meaning they'll probably end up having kids together.

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7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There are other bits besides Dierdre. Holyn and Ayra are fairly closely related(It's never stated, but they're both part of the Royal Family and both are direct descendants of Odo.

There's the pairing between Edain's children and Brigid's children(Which, since they're identical twins, makes the cousin pairings here genetically half-siblings).

Sannan can hook up with Larcei, his niece(They have the highest relationship value with each other than other potential mates).

One MAJOR one I forgot, is that the game heavily implies that Sylvia is Claude's missing sister, and they start with a very high relationship value, meaning they'll probably end up having kids together.

Other than SylviaxClaude (which can be omited by not heavy implying that she is his lost sibling, since this is unnecessary), those examples are perfectly normal for a medievalesque setting. It was common for family members to marry close kin (nephews, cousins - not siblings) for political reasons. If this excuse will fly through the radar, however, is another story.

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1 minute ago, Rapier said:

Other than SylviaxClaude (which can be omited), those examples are perfectly normal for a medievalesque setting. It was common for family members to marry close kin (nephews, cousins - not brothers) for political reasons. If this excuse will fly through the radar, however, is another story.

That's the thing. I think most of those things can be sort of written around or removed(I don't think anyone will die if LarceixShannan is removed, and cousin incest is now a thing in the modern franchise, so I don't think anyone who doesn't think about it too hard/know about genetics will bat an eye at FebailxLana or LesterxPatty). The ClaudexSylvia one would be a bigger hurdle, since it's integral to both their backstories and you can't limit the parent potential in gen 1, since it'd make it impossible for Coirpre to get the Valkyrie staff otherwise. But they could easily change Sylvia from being his long-lost sister to being his long-lost cousin or something.

I don't think the Deirdre/Arvis thing can be written around, and I honestly think giving the greenlight to brainwashing and rape will be harder for NoA than giving the greenlight to them being half-siblings.

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4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I don't think the Deirdre/Arvis thing can be written around, and I honestly think giving the greenlight to brainwashing and rape will be harder for NoA than giving the greenlight to them being half-siblings.

The brainwashing you refer to is "just" Deirdre forgetting about Sigurd and Seliph, and there is no rape because Deirdre remains the same person and retains all her faculties despite having her memories about her husband and son lost/locked. All Manfroy did was lock/take those memories away and teleport her with amnesia to somewhere conveniently close to Alvis and Belhala. She is never turned into a breeding puppet.

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11 minutes ago, Rapier said:

The brainwashing you refer to is "just" Deirdre forgetting about Sigurd and Seliph, and there is no rape because Deirdre remains the same person and retains all her faculties despite having her memories about her husband and son lost/locked. All Manfroy did was lock/take those memories away and teleport her with amnesia to somewhere conveniently close to Alvis and Belhala. She is never turned into a breeding puppet.

That's totally still brainwashing, though.

She wasn't a breeding puppet, but the only reason any of this happened to her was so that somebody with Loptyr blood could be born.

The implications of the whole ordeal(To recap, a woman is abducted, and her mind is wiped so that nothing can get in the way of her falling in love with the villain, ALL so that basically what amounts to the anti-Christ can be born) are INCREDIBLY dark and rape-y for Nintendo.

Interviews with designers about FE4 even flatout say that Deirdre willingly let Julius kill her because she regained her memories, and wished to be with Sigurd rather than live with Arvis(At least according to some interviews that apparently used to be posted here).

Point is, the Deirdre situation is dark. Very, very dark. Waaaaaay too dark for NoA.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

She wasn't a breeding puppet, but the only reason any of this happened to her was so that somebody with Loptyr blood could be born.

The implications of the whole ordeal(To recap, a woman is abducted, and her mind is wiped so that nothing can get in the way of her falling in love with the villain, ALL so that basically what amounts to the anti-Christ can be born) are INCREDIBLY dark and rape-y for Nintendo.

Deirdre didn't know she was being used so the child with major Loptyr is born (and Arvis didn't know either, iirc). And, unless she got her memories back before the children were born, I'm pretty sure she willfully had sex with Arvis. So, while the whole thing of her getting brainwashed to give birth to what is basically the anti-Christ is very dark, there was definitely no rape. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

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I wouldn't really say Jugdral gets no love.  It's less represented than other continuities sure, but IS has far from forgotten about it.  Both generations of FE4 (including replacement kids) are represented in FE Cipher, and FE5 is going to be part of the upcoming expansion.  FE4 has 4 characters represented in FE Heroes and FE5 has 2 (one of whom is considered top tier), beating out/matching Sacred Stones' 2 (soon to be 3) reps and Radiant Dawn's measly 1.

As I understand it, FE4 is thought of in Japan along the same lines that games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI are thought of in the West.

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Also, wasn't there some kind of DLC for Fates which featured Sigurd (and I think Eldigan and Cuan too?). Which would mean that, while the Judgral series are kind of underrepresented, they're not forgotten by IS.

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14 hours ago, Køkø said:

Yeah, the characters portraits are an acquired taste, but the dull colors fit the game's theme. I think they're attractive.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the dark and edgy emo type. It's just that I'd like to see future FE games take a page out of Jugdral's book. FE4 has the best story to date.

 

Quote

like a 90s anime is par for the course during the time. I'm pretty sure the art style would be updated, just like SoV's art style had a major update. A Jugdral remake in SoV's style would be pretty cool, imo.

Don't be, Koko. Despite keeping me awake in the night, one of my favorite series is Berserk which has much more graphic content than the Jugdral games. That doesn't me dark and edgy. I do enjoy all kind of stories, from lighthearted Disney tale , to   violent crime movies,.

True, in my post I have overlooked the art style being a product of its time. That the Cipher cards has indeed modernized the character to  look more pleasing to today 's audience. Just in comparison to Nintendo other franchises  in 1996 like Pokémon Red and Blue  and Super Mario RPG. It aged better than Genealogy did. Main from  using cartoon aesthetic which is slower to age.

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3 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Also, wasn't there some kind of DLC for Fates which featured Sigurd (and I think Eldigan and Cuan too?). Which would mean that, while the Judgral series are kind of underrepresented, they're not forgotten by IS.

If you can link that let me know. I don't remember that and I can't find it in the list of Fates DLC.

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4 minutes ago, Køkø said:

If you can link that let me know. I don't remember that and I can't find it in the list of Fates DLC.

Found them:

https://serenesforest.net/2016/07/05/cipher-series-6-introduction-pre-orders/

https://serenesforest.net/2016/10/07/cipher-series-6-set-release-promo-information/

The characters from FE4 were featured along with the ones from Fates, for the cipher series. I remembered it wrongly as Fates DLC, sorry.

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Honestly FE5 was a misterpiece in having ideas. It was a brave move to introduce tons of new mechanics to make it complete different to its formers.
At the end some ideas worked, some not as much.

  • I love capturing, it's my favorite mechanic in FE of all time, and it works for me how it does.
  • Fatigue is a neat idea but it should work differently. Lots of lower leveled units tend to be screwed. It should be based on the total experience of an unit. Higher leveled units should become fatigued faster to force the player to use lower leveled characters to make everyone needed.
  • I like the way how status affecting staves work with their 100% success if the user's magic > opponent's. It gives the possibility of staff chains like in chapter 24 where you need barrier first to have enough magic to berserk or silence the opponent. 
  • Ch. 24x's warptiles were just stupid.
  • That heal staves can miss doesn't make sense in this game. In any other game where status affecting staves can miss, it'd make sense (despite I don't like it).
  • The scrolls fix weaknesses of everyone but it kills the point of having individual classes due to the generic caps. It makes no sense that generals can become as fast as swordmasters and falcon knights as strong as warriors. Each single class should have its own caps.
  • The new mission types route, defend and escape bring variety in FE you haven't see before. I also prefer FE5's way of escape chapters.


Overall although the creators went a bit too far with a few ideas, I still appreciate their try to of introducing a total new gameplay style.
Lots of mechanics like the mission objectives and even fatigue (despite nerfed in Echoes) returned in later parts.
 

Edited by Reimu Hakurei
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13 hours ago, Slumber said:

That's totally still brainwashing, though.

She wasn't a breeding puppet, but the only reason any of this happened to her was so that somebody with Loptyr blood could be born.

The implications of the whole ordeal(To recap, a woman is abducted, and her mind is wiped so that nothing can get in the way of her falling in love with the villain, ALL so that basically what amounts to the anti-Christ can be born) are INCREDIBLY dark and rape-y for Nintendo.

Interviews with designers about FE4 even flatout say that Deirdre willingly let Julius kill her because she regained her memories, and wished to be with Sigurd rather than live with Arvis(At least according to some interviews that apparently used to be posted here).

Point is, the Deirdre situation is dark. Very, very dark. Waaaaaay too dark for NoA.

I don't see how it is incredibly dark, or even rape-y. Rape implies that she was bedded without her consent or tricked by a fraud for that purpose. The former isn't true, as she loved Alvis and chose him as her husband willingly (despite Manfroy's plot to marry them off, which definitely influenced her but was far from being mind control). The later would be true (it is even regarded as rape by Law) if Alvis knew that they were siblings at that time, which he didn't, as per designer commentaries (which also don't back up your version of how Deirdre felt)

Spoiler

"Although he had no interest at all in girls, when he first saw Diadora he fell in love at first sight, which may have been influenced by his mother complex. After marrying Diadora, he noticed that Diadora often seemed to be another person, and was afraid that one day she would leave his side like his mother did. Gripped by this thought, he lived his days with great unease (so we can see how much he loved Diadora…) and heard rumours that “Sigurd’s wife had gone missing”, leading him to carefully watch Sigurd. So during Chapter 5, he progressed with his plan (to let Diadora meet Sigurd), which was caused by his inability to let go his endless worry. He obviously shouldn’t have checked, but he was unable to control himself; that was the extent of Alvis’s sorrow. Following that, he investigated Diadora’s past, traveling to the Spirit Forest, and found out that she was Cigyun’s daughter.

However, after discovering his wife was in fact his sister, his feelings still hadn’t changed. He simply tried his best to not let Diadora find out the truth. The sorrow that Diadora would feel after discovering the truth was the most unbearable thing for him… In the end, although Diadora never recovered her memory, she did discover that Sigurd was her husband, but she didn’t hate Alvis at all. When her own son Julius was about to kill her, she didn’t show any resistance, which is due to her subconsciously trying to repent for her crime. Regarding Diadora’s character, there are many ways one could judge her, but as for this issue, it is still too early to draw a conclusion."

If anything, until that point, for them what they saw in each other was what they really were. Alvis was also tricked by Manfroy, in a fashion, despite his scheming with him. There was no rape because both parties were oblivious to the fraud.

 

What I find really dark in FE4 is concentration camps and child hunts, plus Tiltyuu and Tinny's stories. Both are taken by their family and tortured for years until Tiltyuu finally gave in from severe stress and depression, while her daughter was treated like a pariah by everyone except Ishtore and Ishtar. Then again, concentration camps were a thing in FE10, child hunts aren't much above that and the latter can be glossed over slightly if it becomes an issue.

Edited by Rapier
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1 hour ago, Rapier said:

I don't see how it is incredibly dark, or even rape-y. Rape implies that she was bedded without her consent or tricked by a fraud for that purpose. The former isn't true, as she loved Alvis and chose him as her husband willingly (despite Manfroy's plot to marry them off, which definitely influenced her but was far from being mind control). The later would be true (it is even regarded as rape by Law) if Alvis knew that they were siblings at that time, which he didn't, as per designer commentaries (which also don't back up your version of how Deirdre felt)

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"Although he had no interest at all in girls, when he first saw Diadora he fell in love at first sight, which may have been influenced by his mother complex. After marrying Diadora, he noticed that Diadora often seemed to be another person, and was afraid that one day she would leave his side like his mother did. Gripped by this thought, he lived his days with great unease (so we can see how much he loved Diadora…) and heard rumours that “Sigurd’s wife had gone missing”, leading him to carefully watch Sigurd. So during Chapter 5, he progressed with his plan (to let Diadora meet Sigurd), which was caused by his inability to let go his endless worry. He obviously shouldn’t have checked, but he was unable to control himself; that was the extent of Alvis’s sorrow. Following that, he investigated Diadora’s past, traveling to the Spirit Forest, and found out that she was Cigyun’s daughter.

However, after discovering his wife was in fact his sister, his feelings still hadn’t changed. He simply tried his best to not let Diadora find out the truth. The sorrow that Diadora would feel after discovering the truth was the most unbearable thing for him… In the end, although Diadora never recovered her memory, she did discover that Sigurd was her husband, but she didn’t hate Alvis at all. When her own son Julius was about to kill her, she didn’t show any resistance, which is due to her subconsciously trying to repent for her crime. Regarding Diadora’s character, there are many ways one could judge her, but as for this issue, it is still too early to draw a conclusion."

If anything, until that point, for them what they saw in each other was what they really were. Alvis was also tricked by Manfroy, in a fashion, despite his scheming with him. There was no rape because both parties were oblivious to the fraud.

 

What I find really dark in FE4 is concentration camps and child hunts, plus Tiltyuu and Tinny's stories. Both are taken by their family and tortured for years until Tiltyuu finally gave in from severe stress and depression, while her daughter was treated like a pariah by everyone except Ishtore and Ishtar. Then again, concentration camps were a thing in FE10, child hunts aren't much above that and the latter can be glossed over slightly if it becomes an issue.

I'm not really putting the blame on Arvis and saying he was deliberately aware of the situation and taking advantage of it, but Manfroy's manipulation of the whole deal still fits under the "Tricked into consent", which still falls under the umbrella of "rape" by American standards today. You can't just say "Well, I mean the two loved each other! Besides, it's not like Arvis manipulated her! It was Manfroy!"

It's the same as if a buddy got a girl you liked drunk purely so you could have sex with her, without telling you. As much as you would defend yourself in court, and though your buddy would probably get in quite a bit more trouble, you'd likely still get in quite a bit of trouble and at the very least be labeled a sex offender.

I guess for a more appropriate comparison, it's basically the opposite of pretending to be somebody else for love/sex, which also falls under the umbrella for rape.

And fair enough on the interview. I read it a long time ago, and the link on the FE wiki didn't work, so I basically wrote what I remembered and what the wiki said. But it still shows that Deirdre really wasn't in the right mindset, and never would have given consent if she knew the circumstances. Which, again, is due to Manfroy's manipulation and brainwashing.

Really, no matter how you slice it, Deirdre was tricked/manipulated into falling in love and consenting. Doesn't really matter if Arvis was completely unaware. It still happened, it was still something that NEVER would have happened if it wasn't for the bad guys scheming and blocking parts of her memory.

Edited by Slumber
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8 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Found them:

https://serenesforest.net/2016/07/05/cipher-series-6-introduction-pre-orders/

https://serenesforest.net/2016/10/07/cipher-series-6-set-release-promo-information/

The characters from FE4 were featured along with the ones from Fates, for the cipher series. I remembered it wrongly as Fates DLC, sorry.

Thanks. Is the card game popular in Japan? I hardly hear about it. 

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6 hours ago, Køkø said:

Thanks. Is the card game popular in Japan? I hardly hear about it. 

I think so, but I haven't really searched much about it.

 

11 hours ago, Rapier said:

What I find really dark in FE4 is concentration camps and child hunts, plus Tiltyuu and Tinny's stories. Both are taken by their family and tortured for years until Tiltyuu finally gave in from severe stress and depression, while her daughter was treated like a pariah by everyone except Ishtore and Ishtar. Then again, concentration camps were a thing in FE10, child hunts aren't much above that and the latter can be glossed over slightly if it becomes an issue.

Tbh I don't think  these would be censored, especially Tiltyu's torture, since it's just told and not shown.

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On 8/6/2017 at 0:41 AM, Malik said:

Maybe if there they make a remake of thracia 776 or some continuation it will be better (correct me if am wrong) 

You know what would be cool? A remake of FE4 with actual FE5 inside it as a single game! Sounds crazy and highly unlikely if they ever remake the Jugdral games but with clever planning it could work.

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1 hour ago, MadJak91 said:

You know what would be cool? A remake of FE4 with actual FE5 inside it as a single game! Sounds crazy and highly unlikely if they ever remake the Jugdral games but with clever planning it could work.

You mean both games remade as one single game? I dunno, both games are heavily different from each other in terms of gameplay and mechanics.

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Yeeeeah, that is a good point, haha. True.

I would love to see one big Jugdral game where the midquel game actually takes place in the main game but what you said is probably the biggest obstacle. Dang :/

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18 hours ago, MadJak91 said:

Yeeeeah, that is a good point, haha. True.

I would love to see one big Jugdral game where the midquel game actually takes place in the main game but what you said is probably the biggest obstacle. Dang :/

Well, one way is to put the midquel game as gaiden chapters in FE4 remake. But Thracia 776 is already long enough, so, I don't think they would put over 20 gaiden chapters.

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2 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Well, one way is to put the midquel game as gaiden chapters in FE4 remake. But Thracia 776 is already long enough, so, I don't think they would put over 20 gaiden chapters.

I think they can make it FE5 a unlockable second game, after you beat the 1st gen.

You can continue on 2nd gen right away, or play it after beating FE5 and get some bonus items carried by Leif.

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2 hours ago, hanhnn said:

I think they can make it FE5 a unlockable second game, after you beat the 1st gen.

You can continue on 2nd gen right away, or play it after beating FE5 and get some bonus items carried by Leif.

I see.

But, the game would be really long, so would IS be able to make it?

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I think it would definitely be a huge undertaking but it is still a nice idea. I would love to see something similar done with FE6 and FE7.

The big scope of FE4 is already enough and not many played it here while FE5 is probably even more obscure. Going all out with a huge project would be risky but eh, the games belong together I guess :D

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