chococoke Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) I appreciate the knowledge you provide on the Marv front. However, I will always see him as a joke, and there really isn't any changing that. Sure, while he isn't solely responsible for his "perfect" playoff record, Marv-led teams are among the most undisciplined in the league and simply cannot handle adversity. I have no idea what that man has done to keep his job for so long (also, I find it hard to give him a point for "not fucking up a defense with generational talent") Edited December 19, 2017 by chococoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, chococoke said: I appreciate the knowledge you provide on the Marv front. However, I will always see him as a joke, and there really isn't any changing that. Sure, while he isn't solely responsible for his "perfect" playoff record, Marv-led teams are among the most undisciplined in the league and simply cannot handle adversity. I have no idea what that man has done to keep his job for so long (also, I find it hard to give him a point for "not fucking up a defense with generational talent") Okay, so please don't ignore what I said then go off on your own soapbox. You're better than that. First of all, Cincinatti this year in 21st in penalties. A bit below average, but you would expect way worse for a situation as bad as it is now. In 2016, they were fourth lowest in penalties committed. 2015 - 20th 2014 - 12th 2013 - 19th 2012 - 11th 2011 - 15th 2010 - 14th 2009 - 30th (remember, this was the year BEFORE the Palmer holdout, and they went 6-0 in the AFC North which consisted of two 2008 AFC Finalists) 2008 - 5th 2007 - 16th 2006 - 16th 2005 - 15th 2004 - 7th 2003 - 19th Penalties are not always a function of coaching, either, but they were only ranked below 20th once and they were Top 10 a few times, bottom 10 literally once. Otherwise, they were overall very middling on the penalties. Which is fine to me. You're conflating Vontaze Burfict with the 2003-2017 Bengals. They had off-field incidents until they moved on from guys like Palmer, sure, but it takes a lot of time to revitalize that Bengals squad, especially with that shitty ass owner. Regardless, the 2000 Ravens defense had generational talent? Outside of Ray Lewis and Rod Woodson, I really don't see it. Nobody else on that defense was a Hall of Famer or future Hall of Famer, and you could argue he influenced people like Rex Ryan who would eventually become a great DC and a good HC (early in his HC career, after 2012 he started to suck). Furthermore, Brian Billick did not even touch the defensive side of the ball; his focus was on making sure our offense wasn't fucking up (and he did a pretty bad job of that). It wasn't like he took a defense with Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, and Ray Lewis to the Super Bowl. It was Ray Lewis, a Rod Woodson really close to retiring, and Pete Boulware (good player, not a generational talent, but closer to a Clay Matthews-quality) and Jamie Sharper/Chris McAllister. Not world beaters, but good and effective players. And holding opponents to 165 points on the season is no small feat at all. That's 10.3 points per game, and that defense allowed a total of 16 points the entire Super Bowl run (that's 4 games). What he did with that defense is no small feat, and the defense was the entire reason the team was even competitive in 1999-2001. When he left in 2002 and 2003, the defense was not as good despite having Ray Lewis (injured in 2002 mind you) and eventually Reed and Suggs. Aside from that, his contributions as a GM are immeasurable and he has kept them from 1990s shittiness, and he has done it in one of the most consistently competitive divisions in football. Like, the Bengals were often one of two or three teams from their own division to make the playoffs; not many AFC North teams had flashy and ridiculously good records because they keep beating up on each other. Also, a "joke" of a HC can't make the playoffs between 2011 and 2015 (which is five years in a row) in a division that has had 2 Super Bowl wins since he became a head coach. I think you're vastly underrating Marvin Lewis' career. No playoff wins as an HC is bad, but he has definitely laid a wonderful foundation in Cincinnati in terms of scouting and talent. I think only Patriots fans view anything short of a Super bowl win as a massive joke, because from what I'm saying Mike Brown is a) safe and b) cheap. Nowadays, Marvin Lewis is not keeping them from the trash they were in the 90s (and I would like to re-emphasize that the 90s Bengals were complete and utter trash, devoid of talent and coaching), but he choked away the playoff win in 2015 and that definitely colored everyone's perception. The Bengals absolutely have to move on from him -- like the Eagles had to move on from Andy Reid who has done quite well in KC after that disaster of a 2012 season -- but of course he's not as good a coach. tl;dr i hate this division Edited December 19, 2017 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 Lord Raven, then explain why Marvin Lewis has gotten the Bengals to the playoffs 7+ times and lost in the first round every time? Sounds like a joke to me. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Anacybele said: Lord Raven, then explain why Marvin Lewis has gotten the Bengals to the playoffs 7+ times and lost in the first round every time? Sounds like a joke to me. :P Making the playoffs isn't a joke. Bills, Buccs, Browns, Cardinals, Chargers, Jets, and so on and so forth -- those fans practically celebrate making the playoffs like they won a Super Bowl these days due to the fact that they've been wallowing in mediocrity (at best) a lot. Give the Browns an average to above average coach like Marvin Lewis from 2003-2015 and they'll probably rejoice a lot more, but get tired of it once 2015 hits. Being Ravens, Patriots, and Steelers fans makes us relatively entitled due to relative playoff consistency as well as relatively recent Super Bowl wins. This kind of thing is more anomalous than regular. (In fact, the Patriots whole 17 year run is unprecedented!) Five straight playoff seasons is something that the worse teams only dream off while it's something we scoff at. They became a joke after 2015; everything up until then is not a joke and a team going over the hump. Regardless, I can explain each playoff season. 2005 - Carson Palmer torn ACL in his first pass of the game. It was a 66 yard pass. They were playing in Cincinnati. Carson Palmer put up MVP numbers; Jon Kitna is a career journeyman backup, going against a pretty good Steelers team that would later win the Super Bowl. 2009 - not a particularly great team to begin with, competing with the 2009 Colts team that would've been undefeated had they not spent two weeks resting their starters. They were knocked out early by a surging Jets team, but they were 10-6 compared to the Jets 9-7. 2009 was actually a very weak year for the AFC outside of the Colts; the 2 seed team were the 13-3 Chargers. Everyone after that was 10-6 or 9-7. 2011 - rookie Andy Dalton throwing to rookie AJ Green. Texans team was good; was an away game. They were not expected to go far, and they overperformed despite having all those rookies. This was basically a new team compared to the 2010 and prior years. Props to him for basically completely cleaning house. 2012 - Lost to a superior Texans team in Houston, once again. They were a very young team that was improving, but they were better than the Steelers that year. 2013 - Choked against the Chargers. That game was a headscratcher, and the Chargers were really bad this year. Andy Dalton had turnover issues here as well. 2014 - they played like trash here. Another headscratcher. I'd put him on the hotseat around this time. 2015 - their starting QB was out with an injury, and they were starting AJ McCarron who was not good. They could've gone 13-3 this year if they weren't starting AJ McCarron. That wild card game was a travesty and neither team can really say they were the better person. Around this time, I would DEFINITELY put Lewis on the hot seat. For the record, Andy Dalton was having an even better season than 2005 Carson Palmer. It was a close enough game that Dalton could put them over the hump, and hell the game wouldn't have even happened because they'd be 13-3 at least with Dalton still in there and have a first round bye. I can't really emphasize enough how good that 2015 Bengals team really was. Also, Marvin Lewis was incredible at spotting coordinators. Hue Jackson is a bad coach, but they had Mike Zimmer and Jay Gruden for a long ass time as their coordinators, and they're considered good to great coaches. Vance Joseph is a dud (though arguably, John Elway was the bad decision here, because Vance Joseph was just some linebackers coach), and Leslie Frazier was a dud in the end too. But Zimmer was DC of the Bengals for 6 years and look at what he's pulled off in Minnesota. He basically oversaw two complete rebuilds and managed to create quite a few talented teams, as well as coaching them to decent records. His 50+ wins from 2011-2015 is nothing to scoff at, and his win percentage is at .523 which is nothing to scoff at. He hasn't gone deep in the playoffs, but you cannot summarize his career as a joke at all. It's really not that simple to dissect; Don Coryell won one playoff game his whole career and he's largely considered the father of the modern passing offense. Lack of playoff success doesn't make you a "joke" inherently. I think history will look semi-favorably on Marvin Lewis, because right now the clusterfuck of the recent Bengals-Steelers games are all fresh in our minds. EDIT: He's ultimately a poor man's Belichick for the Bengals. He's the GM and HC. Belichick did not actually have to build the entire Patriots organization from the ground up; he had to build the rosters from the ground-up, but there was a significant support system in place to do so, and Robert Kraft did everything possible to ensure success for Belichick. I'm pretty sure Mike Brown wanted to fleece players in cap, and only spend the bare minimum in cap every year. They had the tiniest scouting department in the league when he went in; Mike Brown is the stingiest and most frugal owner in the NFL in every way, shape, or form, so the fact that they didnt even have proper scouting says a lot for what exactly he walked into and basically shaped from the ground up. As I said, if the Bengals win a Super Bowl or go deep into the playoffs in a few years, there is no doubt in my mind Bengals fans will be thanking Marvin Lewis for shit like that. He basically made them function like an NFL team, but unfortunately he could not break the cusp of "above average" in the end. If he stays in his GM role and manages to hire a the right head coach then we're all fucked in the AFC North. Those Bengals teams definitely had talent. Edited December 19, 2017 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 I guess I'll take your word for it, though I do admit that they did just choke in 2015 since they shot themselves in the foot like crazy against us there. xP Vontaze Burfict bullshit was what cost them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 You're right, he isn't a joke. My mind will just be permanently married to the idea that Marv is a joke. Something about his face and the idea of 7 trips to the playoffs with 0 victories. This isn't me going off on a soapbox and ignoring what you're saying, because you're right. Marv Lewis is a richer-than-poor man's Jeff Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 yeah i mean i have a hard time really truly hating him for beating us a bunch because of the fact that his work definitely took us to a Super Bowl, but it's just really impressive that he did two total rebuilds of an extremely shitty team They were definitely kind of a joke between 2006 and 2010 because you'd constantly hear about them in the news, but they went for character drafting and they've been fine on that end since. The Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton years for Lewis were basically two completely separate eras. I think the only player they have in common is Pacman, and before this year Andrew Whitworth. The thing about Vontaze Burfict is that he's a very dirty player, but he's mostly effective which makes them feel like he's worth the occasional 15 yard penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 To be honest I didn't know Marv was pulling the GM/Coach combination bullshit. That alone gives him a lot more credit in my book. You're right, he's survived two eras and had some quality talent on his squads throughout the years. Seems like Marv the GM is more effective than Marv the coach. Burfict is definitely the one of the dirtiest players of all-time, but he's very talented, too. I'd argue he's a top 8 all-around LB... not to mention, he's 27. It seems like the dude has been in the league at least 8 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) I don't care how good he is, the fact that he alone injured all three of our top players (Ben, Brown, Bell) in one season and tried to injure Cam Newton and Greg Olsen from the Panthers is enough to make me hate him for life... He also tried to injure Smith-Schuster this year after the latter planted him in the grass. Smith-Schuster's hit was bad, but Burfict had it coming and it was about time he got a taste of his own medicine. And yet while he was still down, he grabbed Smith-Schuster's ankle and tried to twist it. Edited December 19, 2017 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 you can say Burfict "had it coming" all you want, the fact is, celebrating an injury in the same game Shazier likely ended his career is sort of unbelievable to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 10 hours ago, chococoke said: you can say Burfict "had it coming" all you want, the fact is, celebrating an injury in the same game Shazier likely ended his career is sort of unbelievable to me Oh, I'm not approving of the taunting. Smith-Schuster took it a bit too far there. I only meant the actual hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 If anyone is going to shut out the Packers, it has to be the Vikings. It's too poetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, Slumber said: If anyone is going to shut out the Packers, it has to be the Vikings. It's too poetic. men in purple already shut them out earlier try again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said: men in purple already shut them out earlier try again Oh right, the Ravens shut them out, too. I guess purple just isn't Green Bay's color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 Fucc the Ravens. That's a team I'm not trying to see in the playoffs. I wonder if Marv can do me a solid and beat them next week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, chococoke said: Fucc the Ravens. That's a team I'm not trying to see in the playoffs. I wonder if Marv can do me a solid and beat them next week I hope too. Because it seems like every time the Ravens make the playoffs, the Steelers have to face them. We get enough of them in the main season, seriously. Go away! >_< Buuut... I can forgive them if they do us a favor and kick the Pats' butts first... Edited December 24, 2017 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, Anacybele said: I hope too. Because it seems like every time the Ravens make the playoffs, the Steelers have to face them. We get enough of them in the main season, seriously. Go away! >_< Buuut... I can forgive them if they do us a favor and kick the Pats' butts first... Luckily I can bank on the Jags and Steelers taking each other out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 1 hour ago, chococoke said: Fucc the Ravens. That's a team I'm not trying to see in the playoffs. I wonder if Marv can do me a solid and beat them next week dude you need other shit to go your way too even if we do lose to cincy i personally am excited to see us troll in the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 Oh I know. But it all starts with my homie Marv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) hes won us a super bowl before he can do it again 11 hours ago, Anacybele said: I hope too. Because it seems like every time the Ravens make the playoffs, the Steelers have to face them. We get enough of them in the main season, seriously. Go away! >_< Buuut... I can forgive them if they do us a favor and kick the Pats' butts first... tbf we're 1-3 against the Steelers in the playoffs, but Harbaugh in the wild card round is historically ridiculous. our worst win in the wild card has been by 13, due to a blocked punt (shoulda been 15 otherwise, and maybe a few more if some small things happened). 27-9, 33-14, 24-9, 30-17, 30-7 Edited December 24, 2017 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Lord Raven said: hes won us a super bowl before he can do it again tbf we're 1-3 against the Steelers in the playoffs, but Harbaugh in the wild card round is historically ridiculous. our worst win in the wild card has been by 13, due to a blocked punt (shoulda been 15 otherwise, and maybe a few more if some small things happened). 27-9, 33-14, 24-9, 30-17, 30-7 Yeah, but our record overall against you isn't so great lately and when we did win, we almost always got away by the skin of our teeth. >_< 11 hours ago, chococoke said: Luckily I can bank on the Jags and Steelers taking each other out Man, don't remind me... I'm actually more scared of those Jags than anything right now, even the Pats. xP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 That Jags defense is downright terrifying. Also Bortles has looked like a real QB the past month-ish. Jaguars are gonna make noise come January Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, chococoke said: That Jags defense is downright terrifying. Also Bortles has looked like a real QB the past month-ish. Jaguars are gonna make noise come January Yeah, if I picked anybody not named Steelers, Eagles, or Patriots to win the SB, it's those guys. o.o Edited December 24, 2017 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 I have a really bad feeling about this game against the Bills today. Brady looks shaky on his first throw and Bills are converting 3rd downs at will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, chococoke said: I have a really bad feeling about this game against the Bills today. Brady looks shaky on his first throw and Bills are converting 3rd downs at will If the Bills win, can Primanti Bros. send them sandwiches again? lol We'd get the first seed back if we win out! A few years ago, the Bills got us into the playoffs by beating the Jets and Primanti Bros. (I think it's a Pittsburgh exclusive restaurant) rewarded them with sandwiches and they were like "Oh, thanks!" XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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