How would you make knights viable?

[Alastor15243]

So it's pretty clear to me that armor units have pretty consistently gotten the short end of the stick balancewise. Frankly I think that comes down to a few things:

1: They have low movement, so they can't keep up with the rest of your group, reducing their viability in any map where you actually have to go somewhere (which is most of them).

2: They have low speed, giving them extreme difficulty in doubling (and thus killing) most enemies.

3: In spite of the above major flaws, the developers somehow deemed it appropriate to give them an effective weapon to negate one of the only two strengths they do have: their defense. Even when they're already vulnerable to magic, they seemed to want to make sure that even the units they're supposed to give a hard time can tear through them like butter.

So this got me to wondering about how I, personally, would design knights and generals to be properly balanced. Here's what I'd do:

 

1: Nerf effective weapons to hell and back. From now on, effective weapons only do a fixed 10 extra damage. No more. Not just for armor units either, I think this should apply to mounted and flying units too, because effective damage can get kind of ludicrous with the latter. It's fine to have physical weapons that do better than normal weapons against armor, but they shouldn't be so unfathomably strong that any unit using one can flatten a general in two strikes.

2: Give them full weapon triangle access. Swords, Axes, Lances. First off because they should have some advantage to make up for their poor movement, and having a crippling weakness in the most important stat in the game generally means it probably won't be statistically. So they should have full weapon triangle control. No reason why they shouldn't. Plus, sword-wielding generals are just awesome and should come back. It was utterly embarrassing that the Black Knight had to use a lance in Awakening.

3: Give them a skill that actually lets them serve their purpose. A skill that lets them shield their allies from harm, like the knights in other games like Final Fantasy. Maybe a skill that lets them take hits that would normally kill allies adjacent to them, or a skill that lets their allies perform actions from the back of guard stance so that they can keep a healer with them and let them heal while guarding them.

4: Design more maps to make them useful. Defense maps, maps with rear-guard reinforcements that try to exploit your ill-defended rear when you've already moved out. Basically, more situations to make sure that having 4-5 movement only gives them fewer options rather than none at all.

 

What do you think? How would you personally make them viable?

[Shoblongoo]

Well between Oswin, Gatrie, and Effie there's been no shortage of good armor knights over the years. Design your roster and your maps in such a way that you actually need them on the frontline holding choke points and shielding squishier units, and they're great. The Wary Fighter skill was also a pretty huge step in the right direction for making them the best at what they do. (i.e. Damage Sponging)

Edited August 25, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Florete]

I agree with your 2, 3, and 4, but not 1. As opposed to nerfing effective weaponry, I think they should be so defensive that effective weaponry may sometimes be the only reasonable choice for taking them out at all. Give them great defense and average/good resistance to make this work.

Armor as a unit type also needs to come with some sort of advantage, as to this day it is only ever a detriment to be considered armored. Something like cutting in half or even completely negating damage from thrown physical weaponry (hand axe, javelin, etc.) is an idea I've had in the past.

[Shadow Mir]

Another one of these threads, huh? Frankly, I don't think knights have been the one class that's most often gotten the short straw balance-wise (that honour goes to fighters), but I digress. Anyways, I think 2, 3, and 4 might help (though with Fates bringing Wary Fighter to the table, that's a step in the right direction).

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

3: Give them a skill that actually lets them serve their purpose. A skill that lets them shield their allies from harm, like the knights in other games like Final Fantasy.

That reminds me, Stella Glow had such a skill (except it was for nearby allies, and it negated the attack completely).

[Ronnie]

Idk Effie became the love of my life after my Conquest run. Tank those hits! Shake those hips! <3

[X-Naut]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

I agree with your 2, 3, and 4, but not 1. As opposed to nerfing effective weaponry, I think they should be so defensive that effective weaponry may sometimes be the only reasonable choice for taking them out at all. Give them great defense and average/good resistance to make this work.

Armor as a unit type also needs to come with some sort of advantage, as to this day it is only ever a detriment to be considered armored. Something like cutting in half or even completely negating damage from thrown physical weaponry (hand axe, javelin, etc.) is an idea I've had in the past.

My thoughts exactly. I was thinking a percent-based damage reduction from physical hits (like 20-25%) or a Defense bonus when being attacked.

[Shoblongoo]

Wary Fighter really wasn't enough of a buff for you? That skill is nuts.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Arn]

Even though I'm still learning about the series, I've been reading the wiki a lot(don't care much about spoilers) and I'm pretty much a bitch for class system in games, I absolutely love them.

I'm not sure if you are talking about the promotions here too, so I'll assume you are. I'm also goint to be specific about General too, since it's the standard Knight promotion.

The lack of MOV can be fixed in different ways, I think a good one would be giving them the ability to protect an ally from attacks as long as they are X squares away from the target, another one would be making the unit occupy a bigger amount of squares, so enemies will have to target them often or spend more movement or give them a sort of jump skill to better place themselves on the map. The ways would make turtling a map less tedious and a bit faster.

For damage it would be best to make them cap Atk as quick as possible, also give them better hit rate. The triangle system can be fixed by making them ignore it, so they would take "normal" damage regardless of the weapon they are wearing.

[Asmont Osborne]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Maybe a skill that lets them take hits that would normally kill allies adjacent to them

Wow, that's odd. In my idea for when/if I ever make a FE fangame, Pavel (an armor knight) was supposed to have that skill (Human Shield) as his personal.

[FiboSai]

The only way I can imagine generals ever being really useful is if the enemies and map layouts are changed to give them a niche. If the enemies don't hit hard enough, your units don't need high defense to survive, so other classes with more movement and speed will outshine any general. If the maps are large, then having low movement is a big disadvantage. FE4 is the prime example of a game that is the most hostile to generals. Arden, your only knight in the first generation, has the lowest movement out of all your units, can't double anything and most enemies don't hit hard enough for his defense lead over others to matter.

I actually liked generals in FE11 on the higher difficulites. FE11 is a game where most units have poor defense and low defense growths. Generals have a base defense of 15. That means that most enies cannot damage a general despite doubling. Turning Sedgar/Wolf into generals gives you a way more reliable way to deal with those high damage enemies. You can easily get those two to have 30 defense by the endgame, which trivialises the brave weapons the late game enemies tend to carry.

[Dunal]

They really just need higher stat totals than other units; and then the difficulty to be high enough where extra survivability is actually useful (as opposed to any other unit being able to tank significantly under similar circumstances). Healing is also part of that -- it tends to be extremely easy to top off any unit no matter how much damage they take. So if an armor is taking less, then it really doesn't matter since any amount of health loss can be healed to full anyway (usually). So all that matters is whether a unit lives though enemy phase. And if they do -- doesn't matter what health your paladin is left with. Long-term sustain/healing is rarely a thing.

Map design/terrain is a factor of course. Wary fighter would be huge if it was learned in T1 as well. There are many ways to make them good.

[vanguard333]

Knights typically end up competing with cavaliers as cavaliers usually end up with similar (if a little less) defence but better speed, resistance, and movement. I would suggest balancing the game so that there are ways in which cavaliers are better, and ways in which knights are better.

Chokepoints on maps would seem beneficial, but if cavaliers have almost as good of defence than they can guard such areas as well. I would suggest making it that cavaliers thrive better on open field, but suffer at guarding narrow areas on a map. One way to do this might be to have cavaliers have just that much less defence than knights that they can't stand enemies piling on them. Wary Fighter would also be good. Another thing that might just make it that much harder for cavaliers to hold a chokepoint would be an anti-cavalry bow. It doesn't sound like much, but it could very well act as a deterrent against cavaliers trying to guard chokepoints and create an incentive for keeping cavaliers on the move.

[Emperor Hardin]

I have a list of improvements I'll get later. 

For now I'll just mention Vestaria saga armored classes giving plus 5 defense and resistance to all adjacent units.

Also FE1 knight got 2 weapon types. Closest to a return was RD Generals being one of the few 2nd tier classes to have 2 weapon ranks.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Eden Agleam]

Honestly, I'd just buff their movement up to normal infantry pace. Their low movement makes their tanking take far too much time than what they're worth. If they could keep up with the rest of the cast, they would be able to have a decent niche. 

Also, I believe enemy and unit variety would help quite a bit. An even balance of physical and magical enemies, defense and res tanks for both physical and magical units, and a stronger weapon triangle could assist them in tanking. Also, raise offensive values for both enemy and allies alike and health, so the ability to take a few hits becomes important to function. 

Just a few ideas though. 

[Pin4apple]

The obstruct skill that's in Heroes.

It doesn't really do much in heroes since all units only have 1-3 movement and the maps aren't that big. But if it became a skill mainline fire emblem game where units have around 5-7 movement on average then I feel like they would become really helpful in defending units by forming a wall. If you had 2 armor knights in a field with this skill they could create a wall 6 tiles wide that no enemy units (without pass) could get through without killing the armor units. This could be really helpful in the large open field maps against an army of cavaliers since the cavaliers wouldn't be able to just run around the front line and pick off the squishy mages in the back. With this skill they would also be able to block a hallway that's 3 tiles wide. 

While I'm talking about skills that are in Heroes, quick riposte would also be a good skill to have. With this they would be able to get a lot more kills during the enemy phase and make them better to use as a wall. They could still be doubled by units so they wouldn't be too overpowered. Svalinn Shield would also be a cool skill though maybe it should only half damage from effective weapons instead of negate. 

These skills already exist in fire emblem so there's a decent chance that at least some of these skills will be added into a mainline fire emblem game. Having an armor knight with Obstruct, Svalinn shield, Wary fighter, Quick riposte, and Sol sounds like a lot of fun and a very viable unit. They'd still take a lot of damage from mages (although probably not one-rounded by them) and they'd have less movement than your other units but they still should have some weaknesses and I still think they would be useful despite them. 

[henrymidfields]

Apart from a larger Defense boost for pair up (which is already there in Fates), making the Dual Guard gauge filling up faster is another option. I say, overall, Pair/Up rescues should actually have class-differentiated effects. Armors can do the above and also have a chance to block attacks in attack stance (maybe support-based; 5-10% max chance, or Skill/4(%)), Assasins and Swordmasters can attack twice (albeit the second being a quarter of normal damage) etc.

Edited August 27, 2017 by henrymidfields

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, The_Unabashed_Weeb said:

Honestly, I'd just buff their movement up to normal infantry pace. Their low movement makes their tanking take far too much time than what they're worth. If they could keep up with the rest of the cast, they would be able to have a decent niche. 

Also, I believe enemy and unit variety would help quite a bit. An even balance of physical and magical enemies, defense and res tanks for both physical and magical units, and a stronger weapon triangle could assist them in tanking. Also, raise offensive values for both enemy and allies alike and health, so the ability to take a few hits becomes important to function. 

Just a few ideas though. 

It is surprising that Archers have had 1 range, but never normal infantry movement for Knights.

[NekoKnight]

Wary Fighter and Obstruct would be good ways to make them live up to their tanky potential. Dual Guard+ too

[Tolvir]

I think the biggest thing to make them more desirable on a team is going to be skills. Wary Fighter was a good step, giving them and their enemy only one attack. I think giving them a Provoke like skill would be a great idea. One that makes it more likely an enemy will go for them rather than a nearby weaker unit, like mages, archers, thieves, etc. Buff skills could also work, ones that give an AoE buff to nearby allies.

They are good units, the problem is the class as a whole fills a very specific niche that in some games just isnt needed. Fix part of that issue, whether it be expanding what the armor classes can do or making sure their niche can actually work on all maps, and you fix the problem.

[Flamy]

Easy. Make Armors NOT get a movement penalty. Make them at least able to keep up with foot units. This shit don't weigh you down as much as the game wants you to think. Sure, make them have a little less Speed, but make sure their ability to TAKE IT is good shit. Oh, and I guess give 'em TWO weapon proficiencies unpromoted. I say Lance and Axe.

[Ledah*]

I actually really like that in Fire Emblem Heroes you can make the Armor emblem actually work because I really like the aesthethics of the class. Especially in Echoes.

The most logical fix is to have wary fighter and a speed penalty to them, but not a movement penalty mmaking them have the same move as infantry.

The most complicated fix would be having maps and chapters where they can shine, but that could create problems for people who didn't level up their armor because of the low movement being screwed up in their game.

Another thing would be having the return of dismount and indoors levels but while I loved them most people hated it 

Still they were created to be a better enemy unit than a player unit like the ballistician

Edited September 9, 2017 by Ledah*

[Magical Glace]

Just get rid of the movement penalty, that's honestly their biggest problem, especially in games like FE6 where moving forward is emphasized.

[Rezzy]

I was thinking about this a while back.

I'm not sure if it would be game breaking, but honestly, maybe make armors immune to critical hits or take x2 instead of x3 damage.

In Baldur's Gate 2 wearing a helmet made your character immune to critical hits for instance.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I was thinking about this a while back.

I'm not sure if it would be game breaking, but honestly, maybe make armors immune to critical hits or take x2 instead of x3 damage.

In Baldur's Gate 2 wearing a helmet made your character immune to critical hits for instance.

Reduced damage from critical is something on my list of improvements.

Another one is while sword masters and berserkers get +15 critical, armor knights could get -15 critical Enemy critical.