Clones and Default Movesets

[Tolvir]

I saw a post over on reddit that made a good point of how we might get more characters than we originally thought, and that is something that was kind of discussed early on. Default movesets and clones. Now I know the more infamous reputation these types of characters have for Warriors games, most of the time people want a completely unique character rather than 5 that use the same moveset. But looking at it from a different angle, it actually fits considering the game we are dealing with.

It isnt unlike Fire Emblem to hand us multiples of one class. For example, Fates gave us 2 Heroes with a possibility of another 2 if you stay with their base class and only go with the branching in promotions, Laslow, Selena, Arthur, and Charlotte. That is 4 characters with the same exact moveset and same skills. The only different between them being their stat growths, and the characters themselves. That isnt including the idea of reclassing either. Fire Emblem has always been about the one you prefer more. When you are given multiple swordmasters, you choose the one you like the best, or you go with all 3. Its up to the player. So as far as clone characters in Fire Emblem Warriors goes, it really isnt that much different compared to the way Fire Emblem is to begin with. Why should it really bother us as players if characters use the same movesets as each other? Its not like they had their own in their original game.

Putting the idea of clones and alts into a new light, I think its likely that we have a good bit of clone or alt characters. Maybe a default moveset spread between multiple, with a few variations between as seen with F!Robin and M!Robin. From a development standpoint, it would be a great way of implementing multiple characters without sacrificing a ton of development time in the process. In otherwords, it makes something like a 30 character roster or higher easier to achieve.

Any thoughts on the idea?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Tolvir

[HK Motendra]

Admittedly, the idea of that is prolly why Lyn was able to be put into the game at all, as she was able to spring off of the accidental Navarre (or is it more accurate to say the other way around?). It'd be rather bizarre if every Myrm/SM worked just like Ryoma, considering how SMs in Fates appear and look so much more differently than the rest of the series.

Though with that in mind, I don't believe that, should Minerva be revealed, she'd be an absolute clone to Camilla, considering how they are different kinds of wyvern classes. In the case of Hinoka/Cordelia, well, aside from an updated crit animation, much of their class is functionally the same, barring aesthetics.

We'll just have to wait and see for the rest, however 

[Lau]

I honestly don't mind clones, Smash has given me an immunity of sorts to them. At the end of the day, they're still different characters outside of battle.

So I say, bring on the clones!

[Tolvir]

1 minute ago, Motendra said:

Admittedly, the idea of that is prolly why Lyn was able to be put into the game at all, as she was able to spring off of the accidental Navarre (or is it more accurate to say the other way around?). It'd be rather bizarre if every Myrm/SM worked just like Ryoma, considering how SMs in Fates appear and look so much more differently than the rest of the series.

Though with that in mind, I don't believe that, should Minerva be revealed, she'd be an absolute clone to Camilla, considering how they are different kinds of wyvern classes. In the case of Hinoka/Cordelia, well, aside from an updated crit animation, much of their class is functionally the same, barring aesthetics.

We'll just have to wait and see for the rest, however 

Cant see them being clones of each other either, but I can see some default moves between certain characters, like Lyn and Navarre. If we truly have a larger roster than we thought, I can see Cherche being a clone of Minerva, or Alm being a clone of Chrom. Obviously not every character would be a clone, but there are some that definitely could be without hurting the character.

[HK Motendra]

Just now, Tolvir said:

Cant see them being clones of each other either, but I can see some default moves between certain characters, like Lyn and Navarre. If we truly have a larger roster than we thought, I can see Cherche being a clone of Minerva, or Alm being a clone of Chrom. Obviously not every character would be a clone, but there are some that definitely could be without hurting the character.

See now, the only thing about Alm possibly emulating Chrom being a no go is the simple fact that he's left handed. Otherwise, agreed

[Tolvir]

Just now, Motendra said:

See now, the only thing about Alm possibly emulating Chrom being a no go is the simple fact that he's left handed. Otherwise, agreed

That is true, forgot about that one.

[Nanima]

I don't have too much against "clones" so long as it's not not the entire moveset that is identical. There's got to be stuff that makes them unique. Of course, half the cast being made up of clones just to push up the unit counter would be irritating too. At the same time, there is only so much variety you can bring in for people using the same weapon type. My guess is this will be an even bigger issue once we hit dlcs and sequels. A compromise would probably be normal attack strings being the same for certain weapons, but charge and special attacls being unique for everyone. Normal Fire Emblem games already have standard class animations anyway.

[HK Motendra]

1 minute ago, Nanima said:

A compromise would probably be normal attack strings being the same for certain weapons, but charge and special attacls being unique for everyone. Normal Fire Emblem games already have standard class animations anyway.

With the exception of Lucina to Chrom, this seems to be the case so far, though given that she was literally trained by Chrom, I can excuse her. Hopefully, this carries on with the rest of the cast

[Etrurian emperor]

If there were to be clones that would leave the question why they didn't go for a much larger roster. Clones don't strike me as hard to do so why settle for such a relatively small roster.

tying moves to classes instead of characters to actieve a big roster from the start was my main FE warriors idea before the game was anounced.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Only a true warriors fan combs the footage of characters and says "THERE! Did you see that third light attack? It's different!" Just change their supers, swap out a personal mechanic bada bing. I theorized this game would have characters sharing a base move set based on their class, effectively making about 5-6 different characters in a roster of 40 when not counting the lords. Lords need that unique move set. Otherwise fans cry favoritism. 

"Ugh, can you BELIEVE they gave Elincia Hinoka's moveset instead of her own?" "Wow, Roy's so similar to Marth that's not even funny."

may cause more problems than it solves. Another part of my theory was them limiting you to one lord at a time as the rest of your party are these generic classes you pick out whose level and stats depend on that lord's experience level. Call back to leadership stars.

[Arthur97]

23 minutes ago, Motendra said:

With the exception of Lucina to Chrom, this seems to be the case so far, though given that she was literally trained by Chrom, I can excuse her. Hopefully, this carries on with the rest of the cast

She still has special...specials.

[HK Motendra]

2 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

She still has special...specials.

I'm aware of this. This also applies to everyone else who have similar movesets to others, so it kinda goes without saying. Additionally @Nanima had already mentioned this where I quoted him

[Wildeye]

There's actually a lot of shared movesets even in the good Warriors games. The trick here whether or not Team Ninja/ Omega Force take the time and effort to differentiate each character.

Example in DW4, Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Jian, Sun Quan, Yuan Shao and Zhou Yu all share the same basic sword moveset as such they had the same S1 to S6 attack string on foot and on horseback.

But you can tell them apart even at the corner of your eye because each man has different T specials and combo enders, hit sparks, effects when swinging a weapon and attack speeds. Even the very similar stuff such as the elemental balls Cao Cao and Zhou Yu summon in their T1s have have different effects on them.

The problems arise when Koei decides be to cheap and just stick in movesets without personalizing them and the only thing different between characters with similar weapons are musous and combo enders (a good number which possibly not meshing very well with the movesets they're married to because they weren't optimized for them) leading to characters feeling very samey very quickly. 

[Arthur97]

4 minutes ago, Motendra said:

I'm aware of this. This also applies to everyone else who have similar movesets to others, so it kinda goes without saying. Additionally @Nanima had already mentioned this where I quoted him

I just thought it was odd that you made an exception. Maybe I misread what you meant. If you were talking about characters with the same weapons having the same standard strings, wouldn't Marth be the exception?

[Tolvir]

22 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Only a true warriors fan combs the footage of characters and says "THERE! Did you see that third light attack? It's different!" Just change their supers, swap out a personal mechanic bada bing. I theorized this game would have characters sharing a base move set based on their class, effectively making about 5-6 different characters in a roster of 40 when not counting the lords. Lords need that unique move set. Otherwise fans cry favoritism. 

"Ugh, can you BELIEVE they gave Elincia Hinoka's moveset instead of her own?" "Wow, Roy's so similar to Marth that's not even funny."

may cause more problems than it solves. Another part of my theory was them limiting you to one lord at a time as the rest of your party are these generic classes you pick out whose level and stats depend on that lord's experience level. Call back to leadership stars.

Agreed on most of the Lords, though I do think to a certain extent they can be similar to each other using similar basic moves, but having different special attacks and such.

 

27 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

If there were to be clones that would leave the question why they didn't go for a much larger roster. Clones don't strike me as hard to do so why settle for such a relatively small roster.

tying moves to classes instead of characters to actieve a big roster from the start was my main FE warriors idea before the game was anounced.

At this point we dont know the roster size. With Navarre being there, it kind of breaks the whole 25 character theory based on the cards. Im not going to bet on it, but I can see the roster being higher than originally thought. Especially if we start seeing a few more basic movesets across characters, and maybe some more clones.

[Arthur97]

I'm fine with clones though. It seems like the best chance of getting Lon'qu, Sumia, and Cherche in as they seem nigh impossible without it unless they really want an Awakening wyvern rider.

[HK Motendra]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

I just thought it was odd that you made an exception. Maybe I misread what you meant. If you were talking about characters with the same weapons having the same standard strings, wouldn't Marth be the exception?

I made the exception to point her out because, after looking at Chrom gameplay extensively in the early days following E3 and then of Lucina, I can confirm that literally every attack string that Lucina has, be they normal or charged, is taken from Chrom. I can't say the same for Hinoka to Cordelia. As for your mention of Marth, that echoes into my failed case against Lucy regarding movesets being determined by weapons in the Warriors series. The very fact that Marth's Falchion is different to Chrom's and Lucy's by extension speaks for itself. Also, the site explicitly calls Marth's as the Exalted Falchion, if that says anything

[Arthur97]

8 minutes ago, Motendra said:

I made the exception to point her out because, after looking at Chrom gameplay extensively in the early days following E3 and then of Lucina, I can confirm that literally every attack string that Lucina has, be they normal or charged, is taken from Chrom. I can't say the same for Hinoka to Cordelia. As for your mention of Marth, that echoes into my failed case against Lucy regarding movesets being determined by weapons in the Warriors series. The very fact that Marth's Falchion is different to Chrom's and Lucy's by extension speaks for itself. Also, the site explicitly calls Marth's as the Exalted Falchion, if that says anything

Exalted Falchion seems to be the norm these days for Marth.

So, what do you mean by "charged?" Are you talking the strong finisher combo button things (I pressed the Y button to do them in HW whatever they're called). Could've sworn some of those were different.

[HK Motendra]

Just now, Arthur97 said:

Exalted Falchion seems to be the norm these days for Marth.

So, what do you mean by "charged?" Are you talking the strong finisher combo button things (I pressed the Y button to do them in HW whatever they're called). Could've sworn some of those were different.

Precisely. That's what people mean when they say things like C3, C6 and the like. I'd be fine if proven wrong, but I quite literally checked every single one of them.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, Motendra said:

Precisely. That's what people mean when they say things like C3, C6 and the like. I'd be fine if proven wrong, but I quite literally checked every single one of them.

I'm pretty sure C1 (or just pressing the button without a combo going) is different. That or Chrom is charging around stabbing, and that just doesn't seem like him. Still, that's a bit disappointing. I was hoping for more variety than that. I mean, I like both, but given the choice, I'd go for Lucina so...poor Chrom.

[Nanima]

21 minutes ago, Motendra said:

I'm aware of this. This also applies to everyone else who have similar movesets to others, so it kinda goes without saying. Additionally @Nanima had already mentioned this where I quoted him

Her, actually. :P

As for the topic, how is this usally for Warriors again? As the cast expands, I imagine clones also start popping up with more frequency? With characters using the exact same weapon like the Falchion, bringing in differences might be more difficult. Then again, I think Lucina was a special case, since she almost got scrapped, was only brought in because of her dad, and it's a story point in her game that she and Chrom fight alike. That's probably why she is astronger clone then most.

 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

If you watch some of the trailers again, you'll find that Cordelia and Hinoka actually have the same exact basic moves. Takumi and Sakura also share moves as bow users. Then, all the tome users share the new "Steel" tome as their base attacks.

[Arthur97]

3 minutes ago, Nanima said:

Her, actually. :P

As for the topic, how is this usally for Warriors again? As the cast expands, I imagine clones also start popping up with more frequency? With characters using the exact same weapon like the Falchion, bringing in differences might be more difficult. Then again, I think Lucina was a special case, since she almost got scrapped, was only brought in because of her dad, and it's a story point in her game that she and Chrom fight alike. That's probably why she is astronger clone then most.

 

I think she was brought in because Nintendo knew she needed to be here.

[HK Motendra]

2 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I'm pretty sure C1 (or just pressing the button without a combo going) is different. That or Chrom is charging around stabbing, and that just doesn't seem like him. Still, that's a bit disappointing. I was hoping for more variety than that. I mean, I like both, but given the choice, I'd go for Lucina so...poor Chrom.

I'd rather call it a lunge than a stab, but are ultimately the same thing, and he does do so in the cinematic against "Marth". No "poor Chrom" cause I'll be filling in for you as the equally opposite side of the spectrum!

Just now, Nanima said:

Her, actually. :P

As for the topic, how is this usally for Warriors again? As the cast expands, I imagine clones also start popping up with more frequency? With characters using the exact same weapon like the Falchion, bringing in differences might be more difficult. Then again, I think Lucina was a special case, since she almost got scrapped, was only brought in because of her dad, and it's a story point in her game that she and Chrom fight alike. That's probably why she is astronger clone then most.

 

Dammit! I'm usually good at catching myself >-<;

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

If you watch some of the trailers again, you'll find that Cordelia and Hinoka actually have the same exact basic moves. Takumi and Sakura also share moves as bow users. Then, all the tome users share the new "Steel" tome as their base attacks.

As far as normal attack strings, yes. Aside from maybe C1 or 2 (idr which one it is but I'm leaning toward C2), the rest is uncertain. We've yet to see any of Sakura's charge attacks, so again, its too early to tell.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

2 minutes ago, Motendra said:

As far as normal attack strings, yes. Aside from maybe C1 or 2 (idr which one it is but I'm leaning toward C2), the rest is uncertain. We've yet to see any of Sakura's charge attacks, so again, its too early to tell.

It's honestly quite a shame, since Musou games don't really do template movesets unless you're really unimportant... You can't use a lance the same way you do with a naginata.