Ilyana & Jill should have started promoted

[Killer Poleax]

It bugs me that they're the only two returning characters from PoR who aren't already promoted. You get Ilyana after Sothe and get Jill at the same time as Zihark and Tauroneo so there's no reason why they should be unpromoted. Ilyana should have started as a level 1 or 2 thunder sage and Jill should have been a level 2 or 3 dragonmaster. Plus it would really help Ilyana's weapon ranks in fire and wind magic (when she promotes to thunder sage she starts with E-fire and E-wind, that's worse than Brom starting with E-sword)

[Thingy Person]

I somewhat disagree. Tauroneo is excused from his promotionness because he leaves until everyone else is on par with him. Zihark actually has bad base stats for his level, as not to allow him to solo entire maps when the Big T isn't around (soloing 1-6 to 1-E with a jeigan would be pretty lethal). Jill has room to develop normally, and she ends up as one of the best in the game (as far as I'm concerned).

As for Ilyana, I dunno. Never bothered using her.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Thingy Person

[ritsuo]

Game mechanics aside, in Ilyana's case, it could be argued that she maybe "un-promoted" since she spent her time with the convoy guys traveling and not fighting, right? Jill, as far as I know, spent her time doing nothing until the Daein Liberation Army was formed. So maybe she "un-promoted" because she wasn't fighting before then. Or maybe she was? I mean, she would have to be doing something productive with her time; dragons don't feed themselves. Or maybe they do...? I think it would be more costly to feed Ilyana for three years than feeding a dragon for three years.

Mechanics-wise, they wanted to give you a strong mage and a strong flying unit during part 1, but they didn't want to make them crutch characters. In that dimension, I kinda wish they had just made two more new characters and had Ilyana and Jill rejoin at a later point. For example, maybe Jill was traveling with Haar and met up with Elincia and pals during part 2. And maybe Ilyana could have just stayed with the GM group instead. It woulda been nice to have met up with Melty the forgotten Pegasus Knight or something. Who knows?

Edited November 3, 2008 by ritsuo

[Killer Poleax]

I know that if they were promoted the game would probably be easier but its just weird. They were in the last game so they should start promoted like everyone else. Sothe couldn't even promote in PoR and he starts promoted. Its true that they could have given us another mage or dracoknight and have these two start in tier 2.

I know Jill turns out good (I use her a lot) and I wasn't sure if I should include Tauroneo in that first post. I just find it weird that they're the only two that aren't promoted (regardless of gameplay reasons). I'm just saying that they should have started promoted since everyone else from PoR starts promoted.

[bunny: spider bitten]

I agree with the concept. But I don't think they had the ability to do it. They would have had to expand part 1 first, and added a few characters to make up for it. I can see doing both would make almost all characters more balanced from part 1 more balanced, but I think it should have been associated with transfer bonuses.

Though honestly, I don't think a tier three is completely needed when you consider just how many characters are near impossible to use in the last chapter/part 4 because they're under leveled and when you consider how much easier part 3 is because you start with a team of monsters.

[sandmanccl]

I think the reason Ilyana and Jill deserve starting promoted, even if at level 1 or 2, is because they are near useless unless you over-use them in part 1, which means your DB team will be gimped throughout Part 3.

If you don't get Ilyana promoted in part 1, she rejoins in Part 3 as a totally awful unit. If you don't get Jill promoted by the map you recruit Ulki and Janaff, she's not worth bringing into Ike's group to try and get ready for End-game.

Even if you never touch Zihark, he's still viable in Ike's group if you recruit him during those maps. I wish Ilyana and Jill could say the same, because I'd rather not have a severely weakened Edward, Leonardo, Nolan, Aran, Meg, and even maybe Fiona. Trying to get Ilyana viable for when they rejoin means at least 3 of that group will be totally gimped.

[_____]

I think the reason Ilyana and Jill deserve starting promoted, even if at level 1 or 2, is because they are near useless unless you over-use them in part 1, which means your DB team will be gimped throughout Part 3.

If you don't get Ilyana promoted in part 1, she rejoins in Part 3 as a totally awful unit. If you don't get Jill promoted by the map you recruit Ulki and Janaff, she's not worth bringing into Ike's group to try and get ready for End-game.

Even if you never touch Zihark, he's still viable in Ike's group if you recruit him during those maps. I wish Ilyana and Jill could say the same, because I'd rather not have a severely weakened Edward, Leonardo, Nolan, Aran, Meg, and even maybe Fiona. Trying to get Ilyana viable for when they rejoin means at least 3 of that group will be totally gimped.

Jill isn't completely useless when you re-recruit her in Part 3. She's already had a chapter to level up a bit. Ilyana has the most play-time of any character, and while I don't consider her a good unit, that's gotta' count for something.

[Reikken]

Only bother leveling the higher leveled unpromoted DB units (Nolan, Jill, Ilyana), and they almost reach tier 3 by part 4. This is with not recruiting Jill in 3-7, and on hard mode.

[Florete]

I think the reason Ilyana and Jill deserve starting promoted, even if at level 1 or 2, is because they are near useless unless you over-use them in part 1, which means your DB team will be gimped throughout Part 3.

Jill is one of the best units on Micaiah's team. Flies + axes + good starting level.

[sandmanccl]

I like Jill if you leave her on the Liberation Army, but then she'll have a big potential level difference from if you recruited her into Ike's party.

But still, she's not nearly as strong as the other guys in your group are likely to be at that point so she's only got potential going for her. It's pretty significant potential so it's definitely worth doing but you have to admit on a casual playthrough where you're not solely using guys you want to bring end-game, she's kind of underwhelming.

Ilyana on the other hand... she's just terrible. I honestly don't know why I haven't ripped her a new one yet as it's own thread. Even if by some grace of God you get her to level 5 Thunder Sage by the time she shows up in Ike's party, she's useless in that group because everyone else in it already joins better, has better growths, and even have greater potential anyway. I actually got her to level 3 sage at the end of Part 1 once upon a time and regretted it because a lot of my DB units were underpowered for their Part 3 maps and she was still useless THE CHAPTER SHE JOINS in Ike's group. 18 damage to things she's got bonus damage against? Fuck that.

Edited November 3, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Florete]

Ilyana on the other hand... she's just terrible. I honestly don't know why I haven't ripped her a new one yet as it's own thread. Even if by some grace of God you get her to level 5 Thunder Sage by the time she shows up in Ike's party, she's useless in that group because everyone else in it already joins better, has better growths, and even have greater potential anyway. I actually got her to level 3 sage at the end of Part 1 once upon a time and regretted it because a lot of my DB units were underpowered for their Part 3 maps and she was still useless THE CHAPTER SHE JOINS in Ike's group. 18 damage to things she's got bonus damage against? Fuck that.

Maybe you got screwed with her?

She's always been great for me. She passed up Soren almost immediately and went uphill from there. She's also the sole user of Rexbolt, making her a great choice for the dragons.

[CGV]

I like how those two are unique. It gives them room to grow

[Metal Rabbit]

I don't have a problem with Jill being underleveled. I have a problem with her fragility.

I don't care about Ilyana much, they both have ample time to reach promotion before part 2.

[Liz]

well, doesn't Ilyana have like, the most playability of all the FE10 characters?

i mean, she's in Daein, in Crimea, with the Mercenaries, and in part 4. so gameplaywise, its understandable why she started in first tier.

as for Jill, she has enough room to grow if you use her. she's a flying unit, making her easy to use, and is pretty awesome once you level her up a bit.

:P

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Plus you can have Jill join the Mercenaries.

[sandmanccl]

Maybe you got screwed with her?

She's always been great for me. She passed up Soren almost immediately and went uphill from there. She's also the sole user of Rexbolt, making her a great choice for the dragons.

Go compare her stats to Soren. Assuming she somehow gets equivalent level with him (which means being level freakin' 5 promoted by the end of Act 1), he still trumps her in magic, skill, and resistance, which equates to him trumping her in every category but strength if you gain him some levels with bonus experience. Even without it, she only beats him significantly in HP, and even then it's just 4 points at level 20/20, and he actually eventually beats HER in HP despite her better growth because he's got a much better HP cap.

To top it off, she's got a useless affinity for her own use (+defense and accuracy? bluh).

Playability time doesn't mean much when Soren's lesser playtime still totally outclasses her. She's not needed, and she's not all that good. The ONLY chapter she's a star player is 4-E-3. And that's only a whole 3 MT over Thoron or 5 MT over Arcthunder, something you can get your other archsages to use.

[Florete]

To top it off, she's got a useless affinity for her own use (+defense and accuracy? bluh).

How is Accuracy useless for her?

[Killer Poleax]

It's true that both of them have time to grow. I just think it'd be better if they started promoted so you could level up other members of the DB and you'd have a better overall team instead of only a few good units.

The main reason why I don't use Ilyana much is cause she leaves after part 1 and takes all that exp with her, making the DB even lower than they would be. When she joins the GM she's underleveled and not as good as the rest of them and has some catching up to do.

I've never recruited Jill to the GM cause I think the DB needs her more than they do. She is one of the best on Micaiah's team but she comes at the same time as Zihark does except he's promoted and she's not. Zihark might have bad base stats but at least you don't have to give him exp to promote him. The exp used to get Ilyana and Jill to 2nd tier could be used on other DB units and then maybe they wouldn't seem so crappy. It would benefit the team alot more if they started 2nd tier like every other PoR character.

[bunny: spider bitten]

The game basically forces Soren on you. Expecting Ilyana to beat him is. . . Not going to happen.

It also happens in FE9, though, if it makes you feel better.

[sandmanccl]

How is Accuracy useless for her?

For one, when she really needs that accuracy boost (Part 3), she can't get it because building supports during Part 1 will eventually get erased if you want to use her in Part 3. By the time you actually build a support high enough that it will significantly boost her accuracy (because there's not a helluva lot of difference between 84% and 86%), her skill will have finally arrived at a level so missing isn't much of a problem anymore even if she's using thunder magic. Unless you build her supports up with Jill or Zihark and also take them into Ike's group, it won't make a difference in her viability.

And the defense she gets... well, I've already explained my view on durability of units that should be protected anyways multiple times, but I'll add that she has shade so she only gets attacked if she's already wounded and likely to die. Her slightly better durability than most mage units doesn't somehow mean you can be careless with her and let her get attacked by enemies in the hopes she'll counter back, like that somehow makes up for the fact she's now sitting at 2 or 3 HP maximum and has to run away to heal.

@ Bunny:

It's not like Soren is the only archsage option there is. There's also Calill. She gets access to arguably the best magic tome in the game with Rexflame. She's pretty quick, has decent magic growths, and has decent luck and HP. You only get to use her for 4 chapters before Part 4 rolls along, but 3 of those chapters, you're not required to bench another teammate in order to have her tag along so if you want to use her, you can overuse her a bit there so she'll make it to tier 3 before Part 4.

Ilyana is a mediocre unit during Part 1, a bad unit in part 3, and a mediocre unit end-game. She's one of my least favorite units in FE10, only slightly above Fiona, who is only slightly above Lyre, who is only slightly above Gareth.

[bunny: spider bitten]

No, he's not the only option, but Soren has like the highest Growth Rate Total in the game for a tier 2 character at 370 and has the best skill of all the Sages.

I wasn't saying that the others are unusable or even that Soren is broken, but both FE9 and 10 are designed so that you pick up benefits in using Soren. And it doesn't seem accidental, like Levin/Sety in FE4 or Lugh in FE6.

Edited November 4, 2008 by bunny

[sandmanccl]

Granted, he's a story unit. Units important to the story are almost always better than ones who aren't.

I don't mind a unit being "shoved down my throat" when the unit is pretty damn good and very playable. Haar is in my top 5 units, for example, because he is pretty much broken with how good they made him.

[bunny: spider bitten]

It just bothers me a bit for them to use a Sage that doesn't work for me. It'd be a completely different thing if *all* the other Sages were better.

Which is one of two reasons the Haar situation is completely different. Jill is comparable. The other is he's not knee deep in the story.

[sandmanccl]

You should give Skrimir a shot one time. A laguz with resolve, so he can actually tank things and kill them reliably whilst untransformed so he actually gains regular experience? He's one of the most broken units in the game, and completely underutilized by everyone. It's a shame.

[Florete]

For one, when she really needs that accuracy boost (Part 3), she can't get it because building supports during Part 1 will eventually get erased if you want to use her in Part 3. By the time you actually build a support high enough that it will significantly boost her accuracy (because there's not a helluva lot of difference between 84% and 86%), her skill will have finally arrived at a level so missing isn't much of a problem anymore even if she's using thunder magic. Unless you build her supports up with Jill or Zihark and also take them into Ike's group, it won't make a difference in her viability.

And the defense she gets... well, I've already explained my view on durability of units that should be protected anyways multiple times, but I'll add that she has shade so she only gets attacked if she's already wounded and likely to die. Her slightly better durability than most mage units doesn't somehow mean you can be careless with her and let her get attacked by enemies in the hopes she'll counter back, like that somehow makes up for the fact she's now sitting at 2 or 3 HP maximum and has to run away to heal.

Thunder is the least accurate magic. Accuracy might be the best thing she can get. And higher durability > lower durability, no matter the case.