Silver-Haired Maiden Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 So, about Soren. I know lots of people love Soren as a character and to many he's even considered the best character in Radiant Dawn. What I wanna know is... WHY? I personally really dislike Soren, he's my least favorite character in Radiant Dawn and has been since my first playthrough, so I want to know why everyone seems to love him so much. If you don't love him then feel free to share that too! Also please be respectful of other people's opinions. I don't want a fight, just a calm discussion and reasons why. Thank you! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 A guy contrasted Micaiah with Soren on Reddit and I found it an interesting read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolvir Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I think a lot of people like him in a similar way as Takumi. He is well written, even though he is an absolute dick. Soren has motivations, he has reasons for why he acts the way he does. He isnt just a blank slate character like Illyana. And while he seems like a dick 24/7, he does have other emotions than just being that way. As seen with his supports with Ike. I personally am in the same boat as you in a way. As a person, Soren can go stuff it. I really didnt like him when I first played PoR, and my opinion of him didnt change in Radiant Dawn. But I find him to be a very well written character, besides all of that. And I think that is the largest reason many like Soren, he just has good writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I like him because his jerk attitude is realistic. I mean, before joining the Greil Mercenaries, he was treated like shit by everyone he met. Is it any suprised that he ended up like that? Before meeting Ike, no one showed him mercy or kindness, so how can he understand it? From his point of view, it makes sense that he believes that he has no obligation to be kind of others. He could be a villain in a different setting. That’s what makes him so interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Water Mage said: I like him because his jerk attitude is realistic. I mean, before joining the Greil Mercenaries, he was treated like shit by everyone he met. Is it any suprised that he ended up like that? Before meeting Ike, no one showed him mercy or kindness, so how can he understand it? From his point of view, it makes sense that he believes that he has no obligation to be kind of others. He could be a villain in a different setting. That’s what makes him so interesting. I completely agree, if Ike were a villain like Sephiran, Soren would become a villain like the Black Knight. Edited October 31, 2017 by Icelerate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I'd say Soren was well written... In Radiant Dawn, that is. In PoR, Soren came off waaaaaaay too much like a walking cliché, if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver-Haired Maiden Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) I really liked that reddit that you posted, thank you :) I do agree that Micaiah and Soren are rather similar but I think they have some key differences that really make me prefer Micaiah. Now I don't have any experience with PoR influencing my opinion on Soren one way or the other so I'm going purely off of RD here. That means that, for me, they get the same amount of development. Also on the whole Takumi thing, that's a good point. I'm not a fan of Takumi either though, I use him only because he's so OP with that bow. It seems like many of the reasons people like him so much are the exact reasons I dislike him so much. His backstory feels like a contrived sympathy grab, he's a horrible person to everyone but Ike and no one calls him out on being such a horrible person (in RD). They talk about how he's "better" than he was but if that's better than I'd hate to see how he was before. Not to mention I dislike how he's basically a plot device. Soren is the main reason Ike never looses and as soon as Soren enters the picture literally every other strategist is considered "bad" or they come up with some half explained reason as to why Soren is able to out plan these people. Also if he's actually the long lost son of Ashnard and Almedha then why exactly was he cast out by some random lady that was supposed to raise him? You'd think Ashnard would want to keep him close considering the lengths he went through to have a child with a dragon parent. It's one thing to be cold. It's entirely another to be a complete jerk and he's far from the only one to be treated that way. I get resentment... but he takes it way too far. His scene with Aimee was hilarious though, I have to give him that. Edited October 31, 2017 by Silver-Haired Maiden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 59 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said: I'd say Soren was well written... In Radiant Dawn, that is. In PoR, Soren came off waaaaaaay too much like a walking cliché, if you ask me. Yeah, PoR Soren is where the Takumi comparison makes sense to me, though Soren never crosses that line into straight up unlikable like Takumi does. He just kind of straddles the line of general unpleasantness. RD definitely rounded him out a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 20 minutes ago, Slumber said: Yeah, PoR Soren is where the Takumi comparison makes sense to me, though Soren never crosses that line into straight up unlikable like Takumi does. He just kind of straddles the line of general unpleasantness. RD definitely rounded him out a lot more. I'd agree if not for chapter 8, where I'd say he crossed that line. Considering that Lethe and Mordecai just finished cutting a bloody swath through a regiment of Daein soldiers without so much as breaking a sweat, you'd think he'd know better than to antagonize them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said: I'd agree if not for chapter 8, where I'd say he crossed that line. Considering that Lethe and Mordecai just finished cutting a bloody swath through a regiment of Daein soldiers without so much as breaking a sweat, you'd think he'd know better than to antagonize them... I mean, Soren definitely does have his moments. But none of those moments lead to Soren becoming the final boss of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etrurian emperor Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 The nice thing about Soren for me is that he is often rude and unpleasant but he's rarely entirely wrong. Soren has his reasons to say the things he does and they tend to be valid ones. The people of that port town really are terrible people, siding with Daein really was a logical option business wise, Begnion really wasn't all that reliable and Elincia really did grew up too sheltered for her own good. That's the thing these sort of characters often get wrong, they are just the most unpleasant jerks around but fail to actually make valid points to support the things they say. Soren almost always has a point hidden somewhere in the rude things he says and even when he doesn't, like in his meeting with Lethe and Mordecai it can be explained through his awful personal experiences. 1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said: Soren is the main reason Ike never looses and as soon as Soren enters the picture literally every other strategist is considered "bad" or they come up with some half explained reason as to why Soren is able to out plan these people. I don't really agree with this one. Elincia's tale spends plenty of time hyping up Bastian as an amazing strategist and it says Lucia isn't a slouch either. Soren easily outclasses any Laguz strategist because Laguz doesn't seem to have them and even look down on strategies which is why Soren is there to begin with. Soren also proves unable to overcome this sentiment. Even if he charmed Skimir it still ends up with them all not sticking to Soren's plans and getting trashed by Zelgius. You could argue Michy's little fire stunt also got the better of him. Outsmarting Begnion commanders isn't exactly a feat either since they incompetence is a running theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said: I really liked that reddit that you posted, thank you :) I do agree that Micaiah and Soren are rather similar but I think they have some key differences that really make me prefer Micaiah. Now I don't have any experience with PoR influencing my opinion on Soren one way or the other so I'm going purely off of RD here. That means that, for me, they get the same amount of development. Also on the whole Takumi thing, that's a good point. I'm not a fan of Takumi either though, I use him only because he's so OP with that bow. It seems like many of the reasons people like him so much are the exact reasons I dislike him so much. His backstory feels like a contrived sympathy grab, he's a horrible person to everyone but Ike and no one calls him out on being such a horrible person (in RD). They talk about how he's "better" than he was but if that's better than I'd hate to see how he was before. Not to mention I dislike how he's basically a plot device. Soren is the main reason Ike never looses and as soon as Soren enters the picture literally every other strategist is considered "bad" or they come up with some half explained reason as to why Soren is able to out plan these people. Also if he's actually the long lost son of Ashnard and Almedha then why exactly was he cast out by some random lady that was supposed to raise him? You'd think Ashnard would want to keep him close considering the lengths he went through to have a child with a dragon parent. It's one thing to be cold. It's entirely another to be a complete jerk and he's far from the only one to be treated that way. I get resentment... but he takes it way too far. His scene with Aimee was hilarious though, I have to give him that. 4 I like Micaiah more than Soren too. Doesn't Titania call Soren out for being unpleasant to Skrimir when Soren refused to sit beside him? Sure you can interpret as Soren being a douche, but not wanting to sit beside a man who is half animal is understandable. I'd be uncomfortable as well. I'm pretty sure Ashnard got rid of Soren because Soren couldn't transform into a dragon. Other strategists in the Greil Mercenaries are considered worse than Soren because, most of them are brawn over brain. Mist is quite young and Titania is the only other member who can be considered a tactician but Soren is simply better than her. This is similar to Micaiah being Daein's tactician even though one can argue that Nolan or Tauroneo should be more competent. Maybe mages have great innate intelligence which makes sense considering they carry around books. Mages are generally portrayed to be extremely intelligent in other FE games too (Lute, Pent, Canas, etc.). Edited October 31, 2017 by Icelerate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver-Haired Maiden Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said: The nice thing about Soren for me is that he is often rude and unpleasant but he's rarely entirely wrong. Soren has his reasons to say the things he does and they tend to be valid ones. The people of that port town really are terrible people, siding with Daein really was a logical option business wise, Begnion really wasn't all that reliable and Elincia really did grew up too sheltered for her own good. That's the thing these sort of characters often get wrong, they are just the most unpleasant jerks around but fail to actually make valid points to support the things they say. Soren almost always has a point hidden somewhere in the rude things he says and even when he doesn't, like in his meeting with Lethe and Mordecai it can be explained through his awful personal experiences. I don't really agree with this one. Elincia's tale spends plenty of time hyping up Bastian as an amazing strategist and it says Lucia isn't a slouch either. Soren easily outclasses any Laguz strategist because Laguz doesn't seem to have them and even look down on strategies which is why Soren is there to begin with. Soren also proves unable to overcome this sentiment. Even if he charmed Skimir it still ends up with them all not sticking to Soren's plans and getting trashed by Zelgius. You could argue Michy's little fire stunt also got the better of him. Outsmarting Begnion commanders isn't exactly a feat either since they incompetence is a running theme. Just because he's "not wrong" doesn't make him likable, a good person, or anything else. You can be right and still be a complete unlikable jerk. His awful personal experiences as you called them are seriously just sympathy grabs and an attempt to explain why he's such a complete jerk. He's never called out on it in RD, I haven't played PoR so I can't speak on anything he did or didn't do there, I'm going purely on RD here. I have no issue with Shinon even, who is a massive jerk, but at least he's called out on it! Titania mentions that Soren was being rude but... not to Soren and it's immediately brushed off as "Soren being Soren" and hey, at least he's better than he was! Again, I haven't played PoR so I'm going purely off of RD here. I get him being better than the Laguz strategists but he outsmarts Zelgius? And the entirety of the Begnion Central Army? They may not be the best but there has to be a few that are competent. My biggest issue is when they literally get rid of Micaiah's foresight, citing "exhaustion" when we all know it's just a way for Soren to keep his winning streak up. Because there's no way Soren can loose to a "silly girl" as he puts it. Also Micaiah's fire stunt didn't actually get the better of him because it didn't work and the only damage done was that they needed to wait for the pegasi to get the oil off their wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardin Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Soren is the stock edgy character of the game, and those types of characters tend to appeal to teenagers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hardin said: Soren is the stock edgy character of the game, and those types of characters tend to appeal to teenagers. That suits Shinon more than Soren. Soren gets told off, is the butt of jokes occasionally, and develops as a character, which is pretty atypical of the "edgy teenager appeal" character. Shinon's the one who's an unabashed asshole who doesn't really get any comeuppance like Soren does, and outside of his development with Rolf, doesn't really change as a character at all. Edited October 31, 2017 by Slumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardin Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Soren is a blunt and rude character, with a mysterious design and past. He absolutely is tailor made to appeal teenagers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intercopter Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I never saw Soren as an absolute dick, I saw him as a pragmatist. Aside from a few isolated occasions where he lets his emotions get the better of him, (a la chapter 8,) Soren demonstrates that he makes his decisions based purely on the well-being of the Greil Mercenaries, not committing to anything unless the company can benefit from it. Soren's pragmatism is most heavily demonstrated in the beginning of Chapter 5 in Path of Radiance--while Shinon wants to side with Daein purely so he doesn't have to step foot in Gallia, Soren does so because Daein was winning, and because he believes that fighting them is foolish. What I'm getting at is that people like Soren because he's an amoral character surrounded by a morally-driven party, and that dynamic is fun to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, Hardin said: Soren is a blunt and rude character, with a mysterious design and past. He absolutely is tailor made to appeal teenagers. This was not in your original post, and the former still applies to Shinon much more than Soren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahvi Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said: It seems like many of the reasons people like him so much are the exact reasons I dislike him so much. His backstory feels like a contrived sympathy grab, he's a horrible person to everyone but Ike and no one calls him out on being such a horrible person (in RD). They talk about how he's "better" than he was but if that's better than I'd hate to see how he was before. Not to mention I dislike how he's basically a plot device. Soren is the main reason Ike never looses and as soon as Soren enters the picture literally every other strategist is considered "bad" or they come up with some half explained reason as to why Soren is able to out plan these people. Also if he's actually the long lost son of Ashnard and Almedha then why exactly was he cast out by some random lady that was supposed to raise him? You'd think Ashnard would want to keep him close considering the lengths he went through to have a child with a dragon parent. It's one thing to be cold. It's entirely another to be a complete jerk and he's far from the only one to be treated that way. I get resentment... but he takes it way too far. Actually, I don't remember if it's said in PoR or RD but it's mentioned that Ashnard was at first very interested in Soren, due to him being branded and possibly having special powers because of that. After finding out that there was nothing special about Soren, he just lost interested. Still, I don't think it was ever explained how Soren got separated from his parents. Maybe it has something to do with him being branded. But anyway, Soren is pretty much my favourite character from the Tellius games. I like him exactly because of his general rudeness and because his personality actually makes sense because of his backstory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver-Haired Maiden Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 19 minutes ago, Kahvi said: Actually, I don't remember if it's said in PoR or RD but it's mentioned that Ashnard was at first very interested in Soren, due to him being branded and possibly having special powers because of that. After finding out that there was nothing special about Soren, he just lost interested. Still, I don't think it was ever explained how Soren got separated from his parents. Maybe it has something to do with him being branded. But anyway, Soren is pretty much my favourite character from the Tellius games. I like him exactly because of his general rudeness and because his personality actually makes sense because of his backstory. I don't think that was in RD but it very well could have been and I missed it. The last time I paid attention to Soren's story was years ago. I mostly skip his parts now but that does make sense. It still doesn't explain how he got separated or why Almedha gave him to someone else to be raised in the first place considering her slight obession with her son. I don't have an issue with rude characters. I like Shinon but I just don't like Soren. It's definitely more than his rudeness. It's how hypocritical he is, how he has everything special thrown at him after joining with Ike but he still finds excuses to be jaded, everything. Not to mention that I don't like characters whose entire thing is "I hate everyone that isn't *insert character*". Anyway the reason I dislike him is pretty much the reason other people seem to like him so much so I guess it's just a difference in preference :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLordIvy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Personally I have a quiet the soft spot for jerk characters, and a well written one like Soren is an absolute treat. But I absolutely get that this is subjective, everybody has characters types that just don’t do anything for them. I’d love to write my own in-depth analysis, but I have a lot to do at the moment so I can’t go super into it right now but... He has a very distinct and well rounded arc for a side character in a fire emblem game. Soren is a rasist asshole, but the game gives him reasons to be, and it doesn’t excuse his attitude and behavior. He makes some grand screw ups but does go onto try to improve his behavior. Not for himself, but it’s still a lot more than most characters like him get, and I feel is an interesting rout to take with this sort of character. His relationships with other characters and the way he plays off of them is compelling and entertaining. Also like Kahvi said, it’s mentioned somewhere that Ashnard was hoping for a war machine in Soren and was disappointed with the presumably scrawny unimpressive looking result. Which I’m pretty sure is why he instead just used Soren to capture and screw over Rajaion instead, and then promptly abandoned him just to be even more of a dick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardin Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, Slumber said: This was not in your original post, and the former still applies to Shinon much more than Soren. I didn't think the obvious needed pointing out. It boggles my mind that this is even up for debate, Soren's edgy look is as blatant as Camilla's sex appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLordIvy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Hardin said: I didn't think the obvious needed pointing out. It boggles my mind that this is even up for debate, Soren's edgy look is as blatant as Camilla's sex appeal. What’s mind boggling here is why you are so up in arms about an edgy looking character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truffa Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 I know why someone can find Soren unlikeable, but it hurts me because I love my precious boy; I really like harsh and hard to like characters, I like tragic backstories, I love Soren's desing and how he develops from PoR to RD. Soren life was a full load shit thanks to his asshole of a dad, he is cold and logical kind of guy because of his life experience, and only care for Ike because he was the only one to be nice with him. He grown alone and without love, and I have a thing for that kind of characters; but I dislike Takumi, he is a dick 'cause yes and he hardly grown from it, Soren is well-written not like Takomeme. And thinking of it, Soren would do a hell of a villain, kinda like Zephiel if you think about it, with the difference that Soren hates everything but Ike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 10/31/2017 at 2:46 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said: I don't think that was in RD but it very well could have been and I missed it. The last time I paid attention to Soren's story was years ago. I mostly skip his parts now but that does make sense. It still doesn't explain how he got separated or why Almedha gave him to someone else to be raised in the first place considering her slight obession with her son. That's explained in Part 4, Chapter 2. (https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/part-4-chapter-2-silent-world/) "There was no love between Ashnard and me. There was a strong mutual attraction between us, eventually resulting in a child... But all I ever was to him was a source of power. Once I became pregnant, I was useless to him. Bereft of my strength, he found my presence nothing more than an irritating distraction. After [Soren] was born, Ashnard became obsessed with the boy... But once he realized that [Soren] had no special powers... Ashnard rejected him, and used him as bait in a cruel trap for my brother." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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