New to game. Need build advice

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

You really wouldn’t have such a problem with that if you’d just use guard stance more often. It gives innate +5 dodge.

And I would if guard stance was the perfect solution, which it tends not to be, considering pair up received some nerfs. And some (by which I mean most) of those units have Really. Bad. Luck. It's bad to the point that even with the 5 extra Cev from guard stance, it ain't enough.

[Alastor15243]

7 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And I would if guard stance was the perfect solution, which it tends not to be, considering pair up received some nerfs. And some (by which I mean most) of those units have Really. Bad. Luck. It's bad to the point that even with the 5 extra Cev from guard stance, it ain't enough.

Just because you cant’ attack from the back does not mean pair up got nerfed. Dual guards have been changed from an unrleliable rate to a solid half of attacks being stopped when you double, you no longer need any investment in the back unit to maximize the front unit’s stats, and it neutralizes deadly dual attacks. In nearly every situation besides defense maps and fighting ninjas, it’s just as unwise not to pair up now as it was in Awakening.

[De Geso]

On 11/10/2017 at 6:26 AM, KusanagiShiro said:

What should I Build Corrin as? Any specific builds you find effective?

Cavalier, Wyvern (+Mag for Malig Knight is pretty good especially), and Ninja are all really good. Berserker or Hero aren't bad either (though Berserker is better kept to other, non-Corrin units since Corrin can do just about anything else and there are loads of great Berserkers in Conquest).

Diviner isn't bad in stack builds since it gets Rally Magic - they're the only unit in Conquest capable of this outside of captured units, so it's pretty nice to have.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Diviner isn't bad in stack builds since it gets Rally Magic - they're the only unit in Conquest capable of this outside of captured units, so it's pretty nice to have.

Izana?

[Shadow Mir]

51 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Cavalier, Wyvern (+Mag for Malig Knight is pretty good especially), and Ninja are all really good. Berserker or Hero aren't bad either (though Berserker is better kept to other, non-Corrin units since Corrin can do just about anything else and there are loads of great Berserkers in Conquest).

Diviner isn't bad in stack builds since it gets Rally Magic - they're the only unit in Conquest capable of this outside of captured units, so it's pretty nice to have.

Bold: I would NOT consider ANY of the Berserkers in Conquest worth calling "great". Ever.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[starburst]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Everybody SAYS this, but when I ask them about it. everybody also goes hush-hush about just how many goddess icons are there that you get early, which makes me wonder if they're bullshitting... (I can only remember the one from the first 5 chapters)

Two, I think. One from the village in Hoshido, where Corrin meets their 'sisters', and the other one from the first Invasion. If I choose Luck as a bane, I give those two to Corrin, and another one usually goes to Camilla.
 

I am not as paranoid as you are about critical hits, but I do value Luck. I simply focus on its offensive value (hit and critical hit) rather than on its defensive one. I can only remember being hit by two critical hits in all of my campaigns (once by the Berserker in Sophie's paralogue [against Sophie], and once by a Spear Master in the Wind Chapter [against Camilla]).

I do not know how to value Luck without Skill. Elise and Felicia fit into this case, they are hardly ever attacked (except by magic users) and thus I do not know how much they can avoid and evade; they almost never deliver a critical hit, and they miss every now and then. Thus, I have no use for their high Luck. Odin, Ophelia, Sophie (Mozu's) and Heroine Velouria (Camilla's), on the other hand, deliver tons of critical hits, and I want to believe that it is because of their high Luck and Skill.

Anyway, back on topic, I still think that +Magic and -Luck is a good choice for Corrin.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, starburst said:

Two, I think. One from the village in Hoshido, where Corrin meets their 'sisters', and the other one from the first Invasion. If I choose Luck as a bane, I give those two to Corrin, and another one usually goes to Camilla.
 

I am not as paranoid as you are about critical hits, but I do value Luck. I simply focus on its offensive value (hit and critical hit) rather than on its defensive one. I can only remember being hit by two critical hits in all of my campaigns (once by the Berserker in Sophie's paralogue [against Sophie], and once by a Spear Master in the Wind Chapter [against Camilla]).

I do not know how to value Luck without Skill. Elise and Felicia fit into this case, they are hardly ever attacked (except by magic users) and thus I do not know how much they can avoid and evade; they almost never deliver a critical hit, and they miss every now and then. Thus, I have no use for their high Luck. Odin, Ophelia, Sophie (Mozu's) and Heroine Velouria (Camilla's), on the other hand, deliver tons of critical hits, and I want to believe that it is because of their high Luck and Skill.

Anyway, back on topic, I still think that +Magic and -Luck is a good choice for Corrin.

Umm, you do realize that luck doesn't affect critical hit chance, right...? (Except in Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia, that is) Anyway, I don't buy into the hype that Magic boon and Luck bane gets. At all. On the other hand, I have been served well by Robust/Clumsy, so I stand by that.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[starburst]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Umm, you do realize that luck doesn't affect critical hit chance, right...? (Except in Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia, that is)

Really?... I mean, really fucking seriously? Ha, ha, ha!
Well, I am glad that I said "and I want to believe that it is because of their high Luck and Skill."

I always thought that Odin's and Ophelia's crit madness was because of their Luck (for Ophelia's Skill is usually not as high as that of her father.) I mean, I have seen Odin delivering critical hits on Chapter 8; and Ophelia, during her very first attack phase on her Paralogue. One can only laugh when it happens.

Those two must have an innate critical hit bonus, independent of their skills, equipment or class. That or there is a bug in the game.

Now that I know that Luck does not affect critical hit (only critical hit evade), I am way more comfortable using -Luck.
(I know how you feel about it, I am only stating my opinion.)

[Shadow Mir]

39 minutes ago, starburst said:

Really?... I mean, really fucking seriously? Ha, ha, ha!
Well, I am glad that I said "and I want to believe that it is because of their high Luck and Skill."

I always thought that Odin's and Ophelia's crit madness was because of their Luck (for Ophelia's Skill is usually not as high as that of her father.) I mean, I have seen Odin delivering critical hits on Chapter 8; and Ophelia, during her very first attack phase on her Paralogue. One can only laugh when it happens.

Those two must have an innate critical hit bonus, independent of their skills, equipment or class. That or there is a bug in the game.

Now that I know that Luck does not affect critical hit (only critical hit evade), I am way more comfortable using -Luck.
(I know how you feel about it, I am only stating my opinion.)

Well, Sorcerer is one of the classes with boosted crit...

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Just because you cant’ attack from the back does not mean pair up got nerfed. Dual guards have been changed from an unrleliable rate to a solid half of attacks being stopped when you double, you no longer need any investment in the back unit to maximize the front unit’s stats, and it neutralizes deadly dual attacks. In nearly every situation besides defense maps and fighting ninjas, it’s just as unwise not to pair up now as it was in Awakening.

You say this, but to be blunt, I have extreme doubts that not pairing up is even half as unwise as you claim it is...

[Alastor15243]

19 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

You say this, but to be blunt, I have extreme doubts that not pairing up is even half as unwise as you claim it is...

It is objectively the best option for anyone who plans to spend any time whatsoever attacking on enemy phase. It reduces your damage taken to about a third, it reduces the enemy crit rate, thickens your XP spread if you don’t use the back unit, and buffs your stats and makes it way easier to double. Anybody capable of one-rounding the enemy is better off in guard stance. What on earth makes you think it isn’t amazing?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

It is objectively the best option for anyone who plans to spend any time whatsoever attacking on enemy phase. It reduces your damage taken to about a third, it reduces the enemy crit rate, thickens your XP spread if you don’t use the back unit, and buffs your stats and makes it way easier to double. What on earth makes you think it isn’t amazing?

If it was objectively the best option, I would've noticed that by now, having beaten the game 5 times (divided among the paths)... And yet I didn't. Which, once again, make me think you're trying to feed me bullshit. And it ain't gonna work. I mean, while it does some of what you say, most of that tends to not be relevant (reduced crit chance only really matters against Berserkers), and thus I have EXTREME doubts it's the miracle worker that you're trying to hype it up as. . .

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

If it was objectively the best option, I would've noticed that by now, having beaten the game 5 times (divided among the paths)... And yet I didn't. Which, once again, make me think you're trying to feed me bullshit. And it ain't gonna work.

Okay, tell me exactly how often you used guard stance and what difficulty you beat Conquest on.

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, tell me exactly how often you used guard stance and what difficulty you beat Conquest on.

I beat Conquest on hard twice. And I mostly used it when I felt I really needed it, which tended to be against the last boss, or to protect super squishy Azura (chapter 24 is just plain horrible for her).

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I beat Conquest on hard twice. And I mostly used it when I felt I really needed it, which tended to be against the last boss, or to protect super squishy Azura (chapter 24 is just plain horrible for her).

Are you saying you had your units enemy-phasing solo? How many resets per battle did it take? 

[Shadow Mir]

4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Are you saying you had your units enemy-phasing solo? How many resets per battle did it take? 

No - I mostly used attack stance. And the only chapters that were reset heavy were chapter 23 and the luckfest that was chapter 25. More of my resets were due to feeling that I could've prepared better or because I was doing a dry run.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

No - I mostly used attack stance. And the only chapters that were reset heavy were chapter 23 and the luckfest that was chapter 25. More of my resets were due to feeling that I could've prepared better or because I was doing a dry run.

So you simultaneously felt you hardly needed it and yet i’ve consistently heard you complaining about things it would have solved, like criticals and Hoshido’s fragile roster. I don’t understand. Why would you even use attack stance when one-rounding without it is hardly difficult for most enemy phase units? Attack stance is for early game when you can’t double, or when you’re fighting enemies like ninjas you really don’t want getting a hit in on you.

[De Geso]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: I would NOT consider ANY of the Berserkers in Conquest worth calling "great". Ever.

Go somewhere. I don't care anymore.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Izana?

Oops, forgot him

Edited November 22, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[Shadow Mir]

26 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Go somewhere. I don't care anymore.

Heh. It ain't my fault that I only want those I feel I can trust on the battlefield, and that the potential Berserkers are too awful to measure up to my standards.

29 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So you simultaneously felt you hardly needed it and yet i’ve consistently heard you complaining about things it would have solved, like criticals and Hoshido’s fragile roster. I don’t understand. Why would you even use attack stance when one-rounding without it is hardly difficult for most enemy phase units? Attack stance is for early game when you can’t double, or when you’re fighting enemies like ninjas you really don’t want getting a hit in on you.

To be frank, other than Ryoma, AKA the King of Overrated, there are very few units that can really sustain enemy phase (hence my insisting on using an HP boon - to ensure that Corrin is someone I can trust on the frontline, which is HUGE in Birthright, and in Revelation as well, given your starting situation; hell, I'd imagine it'd be a big boon in Conquest as well). As for Hoshido, about the only classes that give any notable amount of defense on pair up aren't very good (two of them are in the same class tree, and the other is a gimmicky class; if I stretch that to characters as well, it's the same deal). Regarding criticals, aside from Berserkers, which I largely try to exterminate with extreme prejudice on my turn, most of the people I use tend to not run into that problem short of the pathetic killer weapons (and the ones that DO are likely warming the bench). Also, I've seen a lot of complaints about how slow WExp is to build in Fates, and attack stance alleviates that.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

21 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

To be frank, other than Ryoma, AKA the King of Overrated, there are very few units that can really sustain enemy phase

I don't even know how to begin to respond to that assertion.

The reason you think there aren't units who can sustain enemy phase is because your units are taking three times more damage than they have to.

If you find attack stance gets you better results on enemy phase than guard stance, it can only be because you're building terrible units who can't one-round without the extra attacks, when there are units like Xander, Leo, and Corrin who can easily do that from 1 and 2 range, as well as countless units who can easily do it from 1 range at least. You have this weird sort of mental disconnect where you are maintaining two entirely contradictory points. Which is it? Is Guard stance utterly superfluous because you can handle enemy phase with ease without it, or is fighting on the enemy phase a totally implausible and impractical method of dealing with enemies?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

31 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't even know how to begin to respond to that assertion.

The reason you think there aren't units who can sustain enemy phase is because your units are taking three times more damage than they have to.

If you find attack stance gets you better results on enemy phase than guard stance, it can only be because you're building terrible units who can't one-round without the extra attacks, when there are units like Xander, Leo, and Corrin who can easily do that from 1 and 2 range, as well as countless units who can easily do it from 1 range at least. You have this weird sort of mental disconnect where you are maintaining two entirely contradictory points. Which is it? Is Guard stance utterly superfluous because you can handle enemy phase with ease without it, or is fighting on the enemy phase a totally implausible and impractical method of dealing with enemies?

Bold: Again with random assertions that don't make an iota of sense... *sigh*

Anyways, I wouldn't say that attack stance is only good against ninjas - you're underselling it AND overselling guard stance at the same time, from where I'm standing. What about those foxes in chapter 19? Or Kotaro? Guard stance isn't going to save the day here... Instead, it ensures that you can't take advantage of the real solution to those problems. Aside from those, I find it useful for killing mages in one round, particularly early on. Also, you know nothing of my deployment habits - either Corrin is the only male unit that sees use, or I only deploy one other male unit besides him, maybe as a filler. Regarding Xander, I don't really care what he does, as long as he's not getting attacked by a mage or anything with anti-beast weaponry - he chokes points, and he does that well, which is enough for me. He also makes an excellent decoy - see chapter 26, where my strategy is to get the Berserkers to chase all the way back to the beginning portion of the map... and right into my trap. What's more, the limited quantity of Master Seals doesn't really help matters, because I'm far and away more likely to see that  they go to the units that I know I'm using until the end of the game, as opposed to pair up fodder.

[Alastor15243]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: Again with random assertions that don't make an iota of sense... *sigh*

Fact #1: Guard stance increases your units survivability by, at bare minimum, a factor of two, far more often 3.

Fact #2: You state, completely at odds with the experience of most of the people who have played the game, that almost no units in the game are capable of properly handling enemy phase.

Fact #3: You have a thoroughly-established dislike for using guard stance.

It's not a random assertion, I'm just connecting the fairly obvious dots.

 

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anyways, I wouldn't say that attack stance is only good against ninjas - you're underselling it AND overselling guard stance at the same time, from where I'm standing. What about those foxes in chapter 19? Or Kotaro?

Attack stance only gives a +10 accuracy bonus unless you specifically design your attack stance pairs around accuracy boosts, and that's far less practical than just using more accurate weapons, especially when facing Kitsune outside of guard stance only increases the odds that your units won't be able to double them. And besides, that strategy would only work until you have to deal with the ones that wait for you to come to them, Because the illusions ensure you can never kill all of them in one turn, making it much safer to use a sturdy guard-stance tank to fight them and eventually wear them down.

 

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

What's more, the limited quantity of Master Seals doesn't really help matters, because I'm far and away more likely to see that  they go to the units that I know I'm using until the end of the game, as opposed to pair up fodder.

That's literally not remotely true. At all. Ever. Between a level 2 shop and the ones you find in the field you'll have eleven by the end of chapter 17, (the time my team has always started promoting), twelve by the end of chapter 18, and infinite by the end of chapter 20. And considering that the game throws three totally endgame-viable prepromotes at you in the form of Xander, Camilla and Leo, it would be very, VERY difficult to find yourself in a position where you can't promote a full team.

And pair-up fodder IS used until the end of the game. Pair-up fodder's job is to stick to the side of a frontliner at all times, and never leave, because the sheer advantage it gives to the unit they stick to is well worth the decrease in deployment slots, especially since it indirectly raises the level of everyone on your team by having one less unit to hog the party's experience.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Alastor15243

[joshcja]

Pretty sure it's objectively dead wrong in every way to devalue guard stance in ch19.

That said aurabot Elise is a pretty top kek attack stance enabler and can be chained off of by almost every unit in your army (Camilia/Effie/All the males). So building for accuracy boosts is far from suboptimal.

Edited November 22, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Fact #1: Guard stance increases your units survivability by, at bare minimum, a factor of two, far more often 3.

Fact #2: You state, completely at odds with the experience of most of the people who have played the game, that almost no units in the game are capable of properly handling enemy phase.

Fact #3: You have a thoroughly-established dislike for using guard stance.

It's not a random assertion, I'm just connecting the fairly obvious dots.

 

I was wrong on the second one, I'll admit that much. But I don't really see guard stance being as big a boon to survivability as you claim when you have units like Hana, who are so awful defensively that two hits spell doom for them... And I don't dislike using guard stance - I just don't think it lives up to the hype you're heaping upon it (not that it can when you hype it up as much as you do), that's all.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Attack stance only gives a +10 accuracy bonus unless you specifically design your attack stance pairs around accuracy boosts, and that's far less practical than just using more accurate weapons, especially when facing Kitsune outside of guard stance only increases the odds that your units won't be able to double them. And besides, that strategy would only work until you have to deal with the ones that wait for you to come to them, Because the illusions ensure you can never kill all of them in one turn, making it much safer to use a sturdy guard-stance tank to fight them and eventually wear them down.

Except for the part where your sturdy guard stance tank might get ignored if they're too sturdy - then what??? (The Life and Death Kitsune will bite, but everything else might not) And as for doubling them, I wouldn't expect that to happen unless you're like, Kaze with a speed pair up or something. And while attack stance hit boosts might not be the ideal solution, what else is there for boosting the chance I'll hit them? Heartseeker? I wouldn't trust my mage to survive that enemy phase unless there was only one Kitsune that could attack them. Rally Skill? Has even less effect than the attack stance hit boost. More accurate weapons? The anti-unit weapons are actually very accurate (Hunter's Knife has 95 base hit, Hunter's Bow and Beast Killer both clock in at 85; the only weapons that surpass them in accuracy are bronze weapons, which aren't that much more accurate [only 5 more hit, which, once again, is less than the attack stance hit boost] and some other stuff that's randomly obtained).

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's literally not remotely true. At all. Ever. Between a level 2 shop and the ones you find in the field you'll have eleven by the end of chapter 17, (the time my team has always started promoting), twelve by the end of chapter 18, and infinite by the end of chapter 20. And considering that the game throws three totally endgame-viable prepromotes at you in the form of Xander, Camilla and Leo, it would be very, VERY difficult to find yourself in a position where you can't promote a full team.

And pair-up fodder IS used until the end of the game. Pair-up fodder's job is to stick to the side of a frontliner at all times, and never leave, because the sheer advantage it gives to the unit they stick to is well worth the decrease in deployment slots, especially since it indirectly raises the level of everyone on your team by having one less unit to hog the party's experience.

I knew about the seven in the shop, but I couldn't remember how many others were there aside from those. Also, my units start promoting around chapter 16 or so (some might promote slightly earlier or later). And even with those three, that's still 12 other unit slots that need filling; you'd have a point if one of those was Azura. That is, other than the part where Corrin needs one too. But if I don't use her for some reason, or forgo one of those other prepromos (like I do with Leo), that means more Master Seals needed.

Well, as I see it, I generally feel deploying the likes of Charlotte just to be pair up fodder is wasting a unit slot I could've put to better use with someone else who could actually contribute, like a healer. And given the fact that the exp formula is harsher on higher level units... I don't really see it as THAT much more exp going around.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I was wrong on the second one, I'll admit that much. But I don't really see guard stance being as big a boon to survivability as you claim when you have units like Hana, who are so awful defensively that two hits spell doom for them... And I don't dislike using guard stance - I just don't think it lives up to the hype you're heaping upon it (not that it can when you hype it up as much as you do), that's all.

I can tell you're just going to keep accusing me of exaggerating until I actually show you the math. Very well:

Say Leo is sent into the fray against 7 sorcerers, each of which can do 10 damage to him. He's fast enough to double them. Assume that his pair-up partner gives him literally no stats at all, to be generous. One of the sorcerers just barely isn't in range and so positions himself for dual strikes; the other 6 attack.

 

Without guard stance:

Sorcerer 1: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 2: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 3: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 4: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 5: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 6: 10 + 5 damage.

Total damage: 90, almost certainly dead twice over.

 

With guard stance, assuming they start with at least 4 shields, which they will if they fought even once before:

Sorcerer 1: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 2: 0 damage.

Sorcerer 3: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 4: 0 damage.

Sorcerer 5: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 6: 0 damage.

Total damage: 30, almost assuredly still alive.

If they started with an empty or insufficient shield gauge for three attacks to fill it up, then the enemy gets one extra hit in at the beginning before it falls back into this pattern of every other attack being guarded.

Thus, on average, when used properly, a guard stanced unit takes 1/3 the damage of a solo or attack stanced unit.

Inconvenient critical hits from your unit will reduce the guard rate from every other attack to every third attack, but even assuming you crit every single time causing that to be the whole pattern, that's still more than a 50% reduction in damage on average.

What do you contest about this? What am I overhyping?

Edited November 23, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

I can tell you're just going to keep accusing me of exaggerating until I actually show you the math. Very well:

Say Leo is sent into the fray against 7 sorcerers, each of which can do 10 damage to him. He's fast enough to double them. Assume that his pair-up partner gives him literally no stats at all, to be generous. One of the sorcerers either just barely isn't in range and so positions himself for dual strikes, the other 6 attack.

 

Without guard stance:

Sorcerer 1: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 2: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 3: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 4: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 5: 10 + 5 damage.

Sorcerer 6: 10 + 5 damage.

Total damage: 90, almost certainly dead twice over.

 

With guard stance, assuming they start with at least 4 shields, which they will if they fought even once before:

Sorcerer 1: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 2: 0 damage.

Sorcerer 3: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 4: 0 damage.

Sorcerer 5: 10 damage.

Sorcerer 6: 0 damage.

Total damage: 30, almost assuredly still alive.

If they started with an empty or insufficient shield gauge for three attacks to fill it up, then the enemy gets one extra hit in at the beginning before it falls back into this pattern of every other attack being guarded.

Thus, on average, when used properly, a guard stanced unit takes 1/3 the damage of a solo or attack stanced unit.

Inconvenient critical hits from your unit will reduce the guard rate from every other attack to every third attack, but even assuming you crit every single time causing that to be the whole pattern, that's still more than a 50% reduction in damage on average.

What do you contest about this? What am I overhyping?

Why the hell would you throw Leo into that many units in the first place??? That's certainly worth calling out.