About Arvis.....

[Køkø]

Most people here seem to agree that Arvis is one of the best villains in Fire Emblem, with me being one of them. There are a few things I don't understand about him though.  

 

Why does Arvis hate Sigurd? I understand why Sigurd needed to take the fall, but taunting him with Deirdre on top of that? And there's these two quotes.  

“His Majesty wants me to check on things… The savages sure aren’t going down easy. Sheesh… Sigurd, you don’t impress me much.” 

"Not since your dear departed father have I seen such a pathetic worm... My flames shall purge you from this world!”  

 

What's up with that?  

 

 

Next question.

"Hmph… Manfroy, I’ll say this once and only once, so listen good. I haven’t the slightest intention of rebuilding your Lopt Empire. I have no problem with your Lopt Sect existing, but I’m not leaving the world in the hands of the Dark Lord. You follow!? I don’t care if I have the Lopt Clan’s blood in me. I have Saint Maira’s blood and he fought for the good of the people. The Fire God Fala is also one of my ancestors. I will use my power to create a world which is free of prejudice. One where all peoples can live without fear of repression! Of course, Sigurd knows way too much. Consider him a sacrifice to the greater good.”

He says he wants to create a world without prejudice. What exactly is he referring to? The only disdained groups we know of are Thracians, Loptyrians, and the Verdanese. He can't be speaking of the Loptyrians, and he refers to the Verdanese as savages along with the rest of the Grandbellians.   

 

Third question. 

Why didn't he take action against the Loptyrians as soon as he gained power? It's not like they had public favor, in fact the majority of people despised them. It would have been an easy task. Did he really think that Manfroy and his goons were helping him without an ulterior motive? He just lets them do whatever they please until it's too late.  

 

I've got a few questions about Manfroy as well.  

Manfroy: “But the Book of Narga is sealed up at Barhara… I cannot envision Lord Narga somehow residing within the girl, as well.”

Yurius:
“You just don’t get it, do you… The incarnate of Narga flows within the Heim’s royal blood. We must wipe every last one of them from the planet!”

Manfroy:
“Alright, then. I’ll have her executed at once, Your Highness.”     

What the fuck? How would Manfroy not know how Holy Blood works when he was the one the one hooked up Arvis/Deirdre for an heir with major Loptyr blood? Why didn't he kill Julia? Why didn't Julius/Loptyr kill Julia on the spot?

                                                                                                                                                                        

[omegaxis1]

45 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Most people here seem to agree that Arvis is one of the best villains in Fire Emblem, with me being one of them. There are a few things I don't understand about him though.  

Why does Arvis hate Sigurd? I understand why Sigurd needed to take the fall, but taunting him with Deirdre on top of that? And there's these two quotes.  

“His Majesty wants me to check on things… The savages sure aren’t going down easy. Sheesh… Sigurd, you don’t impress me much.” 

"Not since your dear departed father have I seen such a pathetic worm... My flames shall purge you from this world!”  

What's up with that?  

No idea. This might actually be something more of a backstory that might have happened between Arvis and Sigurd back then, and was never explored. Though the later part might actually be some form of resentment about how he might in fact be Deirdre's true love and first husband. 

46 minutes ago, Køkø said:

"Hmph… Manfroy, I’ll say this once and only once, so listen good. I haven’t the slightest intention of rebuilding your Lopt Empire. I have no problem with your Lopt Sect existing, but I’m not leaving the world in the hands of the Dark Lord. You follow!? I don’t care if I have the Lopt Clan’s blood in me. I have Saint Maira’s blood and he fought for the good of the people. The Fire God Fala is also one of my ancestors. I will use my power to create a world which is free of prejudice. One where all peoples can live without fear of repression! Of course, Sigurd knows way too much. Consider him a sacrifice to the greater good.”

He says he wants to create a world without prejudice. What exactly is he referring to? The only disdained groups we know of are Thracians, Loptyrians, and the Verdanese. He can't be speaking of the Loptyrians, and he refers to the Verdanese as savages along with the rest of the Grandbellians.   

Remember that the people were prejudiced against ALL Loptyrians. Saint Maera was a good man that fought for the people, and even the Crusader Blaggi was something that was made for the purpose of showing that not all Loptyrians were bad. But people despised anyone connected to Loptyr. Meaning that even Arvis himself would have been prejudiced. And the Thracians also had their issues that Arvis likely also wanted to stop. All Arvis wanted was to create a world of peace. 

48 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Third question. 

Why didn't he take action against the Loptyrians as soon as he gained power? It's not like they had public favor, in fact the majority of people despised them. It would have been an easy task. Did he really think that Manfroy and his goons were helping him without an ulterior motive? He just lets them do whatever they please until it's too late.  

Well, remember that to stop the Loptyrians, he would have to expose that him, Deirdre, and Julius had Loptyr blood in them. In fact, this would turn public favor away from Arvis IMMEDIATELY. That's how Manfroy was able to use Arvis, as he blackmailed Arvis to keep the Loptyrians a secret as they would expose Arvis' lineage, and Arvis would be persecuted and burned at the stake. 

He tried to stop Julius and even at one point tried to exile him, but Julius was too powerful with Loptyr's power, and thus likely tortured Arvis a great deal. 

51 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I've got a few questions about Manfroy as well.  

Manfroy: “But the Book of Narga is sealed up at Barhara… I cannot envision Lord Narga somehow residing within the girl, as well.”

Yurius:
“You just don’t get it, do you… The incarnate of Narga flows within the Heim’s royal blood. We must wipe every last one of them from the planet!”

Manfroy:
“Alright, then. I’ll have her executed at once, Your Highness.”     

What the fuck? How would Manfroy not know how Holy Blood works when he was the one the one hooked up Arvis/Deirdre for an heir with major Loptyr blood? Why didn't he kill Julia? Why didn't Julius/Loptyr kill Julia on the spot?

Manfroy believed that it was the Holy Weapon that holds the actual being that made it, not the Holy Blood, and believes the Holy Blood to be just a conduit for the possession to take place, hence why he hooked Arvis and Deirdre, so that he could give the tome to the child with Major Loptyr Blood. 

As for why he didn't kill Julia, there's a heavy indication that he only wanted to hurt Seliph and the others even more. My personal belief is that Julia might bear a resemblance to his granddaughter, Sara, who might also bear a resemblance to Manfroy's daughter. So this might have been due to some form of parental love that Manfroy still held within him. 

[Etrurian emperor]

I don't think Arvis hates Sigurd. Its more then he really, really fears Sigurd.

If Deirdre ever regained her memories then she'd likely return to Sigurd which would scare Arvis since he really is in love with her. Arvis dragging Deirdre to Sigurd's face to just rub it in always struck me as some twisted self assurance that Deirdre really was his and not Sigurd rather then outright malice towards Sigurd. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

If Deirdre ever regained her memories then she'd likely return to Sigurd which would scare Arvis since he really is in love with her. Arvis dragging Deirdre to Sigurd's face to just rub it in always struck me as some twisted self assurance that Deirdre really was his and not Sigurd rather then outright malice towards Sigurd. 

Kaga confirmed that it was to see if Deirdre was Sigurd's missing wife, because he had this nagging fear. 

[Dandy Druid]

There could be several reasons why Arvis doesn't like Sigurd.

1. Could be their background- we know that Sigurd had studied at Belhalla in his youth. It's possible that Arvis was studying there at the same time and the two had started a rivalry of sorts.
2. He was threatened by Sigurd and his political connections. Although Sigurd's reputation gradually plummets in Grandbell, he was popular in foreign countries. He had an alliance with Verdane through Jamke. In Ch.2 and 3, his appearance has mixed reactions by the citizens of Agustria- they're mad about Eldigan, but happy they took down their king. He was in good standing with the Sileesians, and him protecting the prince of Isaac made him favorable to Isaachians. His sister was a lady of Lenster, so they were tied to Sigurd as well. As for in-Grandbell, Blaggi was the Chalphys' only true ally, but there were nobles from other houses (Dozel, Jungby, Tordo, and Velthomer) that sided and died with Sigurd.
3. The other threatened reason, and what I believe to be most canon, Arvis was afraid that as long as Sigurd was alive, Deidre would return to him. He had his hunches about Deidre's true husband being Sigurd, so jealousy may have consumed him. IIRC, Deidre actually regains her memories, but it was too late.
4. He actually doesn't hate Sigurd, but only said those things to make killing him later easier. It's easier to kill someone you hate rather than someone you respect. 

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

1. He actually doesn't hate Sigurd, but only said those things to make killing him later easier. It's easier to kill someone you hate rather than someone you respect. 

Like how he mocked Seliph and Sigurd when he fought the former, but really wanted Seliph to kill him.

[Dandy Druid]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like how he mocked Seliph and Sigurd when he fought the former, but really wanted Seliph to kill him.

I really agree. There's something poetic about that moment, and one of the reasons why I like Arvis as a villain so much.

It's clear that he felt guilty for his past actions- although he gained power and influence, he didn't gain happiness. For what happiness he had, was fleeting. He lost his crown to demon son, his daughter is MIA, and his beloved wife is passed away and learned of the truth- that she was Sigurd's wife before her passing. His ambition brought more consequences than good, and his realization of this is what makes him an intriguing and 

So there he was, in the home castle of the man he was robbed of life and wife, only for his son to come back and avenge his parents. There's a lot of poetic justice in this moment, but I just think that Arvis was guilty and wanted to die, as a way of atoning himself. I don't think he would feel guilty if he never respected Sigurd, and it's evident that Arvis was haunted by his past actions against him.

[omegaxis1]

32 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

I really agree. There's something poetic about that moment, and one of the reasons why I like Arvis as a villain so much.

It's clear that he felt guilty for his past actions- although he gained power and influence, he didn't gain happiness. For what happiness he had, was fleeting. He lost his crown to demon son, his daughter is MIA, and his beloved wife is passed away and learned of the truth- that she was Sigurd's wife before her passing. His ambition brought more consequences than good, and his realization of this is what makes him an intriguing and 

So there he was, in the home castle of the man he was robbed of life and wife, only for his son to come back and avenge his parents. There's a lot of poetic justice in this moment, but I just think that Arvis was guilty and wanted to die, as a way of atoning himself. I don't think he would feel guilty if he never respected Sigurd, and it's evident that Arvis was haunted by his past actions against him.

Want another one? How about the case on how Arvis literally did what his father did, and Arvis has an illegitimate son. Bet Arvis doesn't even know that he has another son with a woman that used to work for him.

[Køkø]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Well, remember that to stop the Loptyrians, he would have to expose that him, Deirdre, and Julius had Loptyr blood in them. In fact, this would turn public favor away from Arvis IMMEDIATELY. That's how Manfroy was able to use Arvis, as he blackmailed Arvis to keep the Loptyrians a secret as they would expose Arvis' lineage, and Arvis would be persecuted and burned at the stake. 

Manfroy believed that it was the Holy Weapon that holds the actual being that made it, not the Holy Blood, and believes the Holy Blood to be just a conduit for the possession to take place, hence why he hooked Arvis and Deirdre, so that he could give the tome to the child with Major Loptyr Blood. 

As for why he didn't kill Julia, there's a heavy indication that he only wanted to hurt Seliph and the others even more. My personal belief is that Julia might bear a resemblance to his granddaughter, Sara, who might also bear a resemblance to Manfroy's daughter. So this might have been due to some form of parental love that Manfroy still held within him. 

And how would he do that? What proof did they have? Are you saying people are going to trust the word of Loptyrians over their emperor? The one appointed by Azmur himself? 

What I mean is that he knew that Julia could use the only weapon capable of stopping Loptyr. He speaks as if he doesn't know how Holy Blood works, and has to be told by Julius.  

That's completely unnecessary and out of character for Manfroy, who's shown to be an extremely careful and intelligent person. He spent years toiling towards this goal, and bears no grudge towards Seliph. And Loptyr himself goes along with it. Why? It really seems like the writers made the villains too strong and had to make up some BS so you could beat the game. Julia should have never been kidnapped in the first place. There is zero evidence for the Sara/Julia thing, and Manfroy is completely dedicated to Loptyr. Loptyr takes precedence over anything else in his life. His dying words concern the Loptyr Empire, not his family. Even is that was true, why would he send her to fight and possibly slayed by Seliph's army?  

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like how he mocked Seliph and Sigurd when he fought the former, but really wanted Seliph to kill him.

 

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

I really agree. There's something poetic about that moment, and one of the reasons why I like Arvis as a villain so much.

It's clear that he felt guilty for his past actions- although he gained power and influence, he didn't gain happiness. For what happiness he had, was fleeting. He lost his crown to demon son, his daughter is MIA, and his beloved wife is passed away and learned of the truth- that she was Sigurd's wife before her passing. His ambition brought more consequences than good, and his realization of this is what makes him an intriguing and 

So there he was, in the home castle of the man he was robbed of life and wife, only for his son to come back and avenge his parents. There's a lot of poetic justice in this moment, but I just think that Arvis was guilty and wanted to die, as a way of atoning himself. I don't think he would feel guilty if he never respected Sigurd, and it's evident that Arvis was haunted by his past actions against him.

This is also a stupid moment. He only fought against Seliph's army because Manfroy said he would kill Julia (which he should have done immediately). Wouldn't a better atonement be joining Seliph's army rather than attempting to and possibly killing them? And shit-talking on top of that? If he wanted to die so bad, why didn't just kill himself instead getting in Seliph's way? 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Køkø

[Køkø]

 

2 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

There could be several reasons why Arvis doesn't like Sigurd.

1. Could be their background- we know that Sigurd had studied at Belhalla in his youth. It's possible that Arvis was studying there at the same time and the two had started a rivalry of sorts.

Your other points are good but this I don't get. Chalphy is implied to one of the lower houses in Grandbell, why would Arvis be envious of him? 

Didn't mean to double post, Serenes is acting up again.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

21 minutes ago, Køkø said:

And how would he do that? What proof did they have? Are you saying people are going to trust the word of Loptyrians over their emperor? The one appointed by Azmur himself? 

Given that Arvis was actually able to be blackmailed, Manfroy likely did have evidence. Or maybe all it takes is just to spread the word of him having Loptyr blood in him. People are that fearful and hold that much hate towards the Loptyrians, as stated by a villager, where any suspicion of it resulted in burning, and didn't care who they were, be they be child or woman. 

Also, again, how would Arvis be able to explain why his own son has Loptyr's power? Pretty convincing evidence right there. Arvis needing to explain that would mean that he needs to expose his own bloodline. 

21 minutes ago, Køkø said:

What I mean is that he knew that Julia could use the only weapon capable of stopping Loptyr. He speaks as if he doesn't know how Holy Blood works, and has to be told by Julius.  

Manfroy says that he has the Book of Naga locked up, so he was sure that so long as the book was locked away, Naga cannot interfere. Of course, the lock ended up having the key be the circlet that Arvis gave Julia. Still wondering why Manfroy never figured that part out.

21 minutes ago, Køkø said:

That's completely unnecessary and out of character for Manfroy, who's shown to be an extremely careful and intelligent person. He spent years toiling towards this goal, and bears no grudge towards Seliph. And Loptyr himself goes along with it. Why? It really seems like the writers made the villains too strong and had to make up some BS so you could beat the game. Julia should have never been kidnapped in the first place. There is zero evidence for the Sara/Julia thing, and Manfroy is completely dedicated to Loptyr. Loptyr takes precedence over anything else in his life. His dying words concern the Loptyr Empire, not his family. Even is that was true, why would he send her to fight and possibly slayed by Seliph's army?  

That's my personal belief though. There is no evidence, but he did murder Sara's father simply because he loved Manfroy's daughter, and Manfroy seems to make sure that other Loptyrians treated his granddaughter well, so he has some cases of being doting.

And Manfroy hates all humans or rather all non-Loptyrian humans in general. It was they that persecuted, so if he can inflict harm to the others, even to someone that has nothing to do with his revenge, them opposing Loptyr means that he will work to hurt them. However, its also possible that his own hubris got the better of him. He was always forced to work behind the shadows, and now he was finally working out in the open, so the new method of working might have inflated his ego too much, and he feels there's no longer need to truly fear anything. 

21 minutes ago, Køkø said:

This is also a stupid moment. He only fought against Seliph's army because Manfroy said he would kill Julia (which he should have done immediately). Wouldn't a better atonement be joining Seliph's army rather than attempting to and possibly killing them? And shit-talking on top of that? If he wanted to die so bad, why didn't just kill himself instead getting in Seliph's way?

You think that he wouldn't have wanted to at least give Seliph the chance to get vengeance on him? Arvis is the one that murdered Seliph's father. Naturally Seliph might want revenge for that. So Arvis might have wanted to let Seliph get that satisfaction. Plus, join Seliph's army? Impossible. He was already known as the villain to the people's eyes. He cannot explain himself no matter how much he wants to. It was already too late to for him to join the good guys, but he could try his best to help them with other methods. Plus, Arvis also had to try and protect as many people as he could from the child hunts and such. Ishtar seemed to be in on this as well.

Edited February 7, 2018 by omegaxis1

[Køkø]

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Given that Arvis was actually able to be blackmailed, Manfroy likely did have evidence. Or maybe all it takes is just to spread the word of him having Loptyr blood in him. People are that fearful and hold that much hate towards the Loptyrians, as stated by a villager, where any suspicion of it resulted in burning, and didn't care who they were, be they be child or woman. 

Also, again, how would Arvis be able to explain why his own son has Loptyr's power? Pretty convincing evidence right there. Arvis needing to explain that would mean that he needs to expose his own bloodline. 

That evidence does not exist as of now. You cite the villager, but that's among the peasantry. This is the emperor we're talking about here. I'm saying he should have dealt with Manfroy as soon as he ascended the throne. He lets them do whatever they please, and that's how Julius got corrupted.  

 How would his son be evidence if he didn't even exist? 

 

25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Manfroy says that he has the Book of Naga locked up, so he was sure that so long as the book was locked away, Naga cannot interfere. Of course, the lock ended up having the key be the circlet that Arvis gave Julia. Still wondering why Manfroy never figured that part out.

That's my personal belief though. There is no evidence, but he did murder Sara's father simply because he loved Manfroy's daughter, and Manfroy seems to make sure that other Loptyrians treated his granddaughter well, so he has some cases of being doting.

I know right? He was in the room when Arvis gave it to her. He should have smashed that thing in the least. 

Considering Sara is the granddaughter of their second in command, it kinda comes naturally. They actually avoid her because she creeps them out.There is no interaction between Manfroy and Sara so I fail to see any doting. 

 

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

You think that he wouldn't have wanted to at least give Seliph the chance to get vengeance on him? Arvis is the one that murdered Seliph's father. Naturally Seliph might want revenge for that. So Arvis might have wanted to let Seliph get that satisfaction. Plus, join Seliph's army? Impossible. He was already known as the villain to the people's eyes. He cannot explain himself no matter how much he wants to. It was already too late to for him to join the good guys, but he could try his best to help them with other methods. Plus, Arvis also had to try and protect as many people as he could from the child hunts and such. Ishtar seemed to be in on this as well.

Vengeance should be the least of his concerns given the situation at hand. Why couldn't that have been done after the war? If not joining he could have openly assisted like he did in the prologue and like Areone in the final chapter. What if he ended up killing Seliph or any member of his army?

[Dandy Druid]

55 minutes ago, Køkø said:

This is also a stupid moment. He only fought against Seliph's army because Manfroy said he would kill Julia (which he should have done immediately). Wouldn't a better atonement be joining Seliph's army rather than attempting to and possibly killing them? And shit-talking on top of that? If he wanted to die so bad, why didn't just kill himself instead getting in Seliph's way? 

I mean, since Manfroy threatened him, killing himself or joining Seliph's army wouldn't be an option, since Manfroy would perceive that as disobeying his orders and kill Julia. Having Seliph kill him is one way to ease the guilt he's had for years over Seliph's parents, and it's a loophole. He can protect Julia without Manfroy perceiving it as disobedience. The shit-talking helps, because it makes it easier for Seliph to kill him off rather than feel sympathy, especially since the Loptyr Sect was always watching from the shadows. Why Manfroy didn't kill the vessel that could (and did) put his plans to ruin is beyond me. Really OOC for Manfroy.

51 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Your other points are good but this I don't get. Chalphy is implied to one of the lower houses in Grandbell, why would Arvis be envious of him? 

Didn't mean to double post, Serenes is acting up again.

Arvis could've felt jealous simply because Sigurd was the paragon of chivalry and was an upstanding noble. Sigurd came from a family that loved him and groomed him well, meanwhile Arvis had to basically raise himself and his younger brother because his mother went MIA and his dad was a piece of shit. Seeing as how Ethlyn was implied to have visited (and met Cuan), one can theorize that because Sigurd was the good looking, athletic, and charismatic young lord, Arvis could've been jealous of his family background and leadership qualities. The Oosawa manga even details this event- saying that Sigurd, Eldigan, and Cuan were popular at the Belhalla school, with the trio being known to have many female admirers and Sigurd and Eldigan were reknown for their swordsmanship. Sigurd could've been in the "It Crowd" or "The Chad" while Arvis was a nerd watching from the sides.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Want another one? How about the case on how Arvis literally did what his father did, and Arvis has an illegitimate son. Bet Arvis doesn't even know that he has another son with a woman that used to work for him.

Oh boyyy. I forgot about that kid. Oh Aida, I hope you're mentioned in a memory prism at least.

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, Køkø said:

That evidence does not exist as of now. You cite the villager, but that's among the peasantry. This is the emperor we're talking about here. I'm saying he should have dealt with Manfroy as soon as he ascended the throne. He lets them do whatever they please, and that's how Julius got corrupted.  

 How would his son be evidence if he didn't even exist? 

Well, based on things, the Loptyrians didn't actually do anything with Arvis' rule as emperor until they handed Julius the Loptyr tome. When Arvis took claim of the throne, Manfroy and the others backed off and just bided their time. Arvis likely didn't truly see them as a threat and just held up his end of the bargain. Also, are you forgetting that Loptyr was among the royalty? Arvis having Loptyr Blood and being the emperor would actually send Jugdral into a huge panic. So him being royalty actually would have been worse. 

If Arvis was thought to possibly be Loptyrian, the people would get into a frenzy. The 200 years of fear that Loptyr had instilled into the people was that bad.

7 hours ago, Køkø said:

I know right? He was in the room when Arvis gave it to her. He should have smashed that thing in the least. 

Considering Sara is the granddaughter of their second in command, it kinda comes naturally. They actually avoid her because she creeps them out.There is no interaction between Manfroy and Sara so I fail to see any doting. 

Unless of course Arvis actually changed the locks without Manfroy knowing it.

I know. Like I said, this is just my personal belief. Not saying there's a powerful evidence to back it up, especially since before Thracia, Sara didn't exist, and Manfroy was just an idiot. But Sara was made and she does bear a similar resemblance to Julia, so I figure that maybe the design was made for Manfroy to see that. 

7 hours ago, Køkø said:

Vengeance should be the least of his concerns given the situation at hand. Why couldn't that have been done after the war? If not joining he could have openly assisted like he did in the prologue and like Areone in the final chapter. What if he ended up killing Seliph or any member of his army?

 

7 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I mean, since Manfroy threatened him, killing himself or joining Seliph's army wouldn't be an option, since Manfroy would perceive that as disobeying his orders and kill Julia. Having Seliph kill him is one way to ease the guilt he's had for years over Seliph's parents, and it's a loophole. He can protect Julia without Manfroy perceiving it as disobedience. The shit-talking helps, because it makes it easier for Seliph to kill him off rather than feel sympathy, especially since the Loptyr Sect was always watching from the shadows. Why Manfroy didn't kill the vessel that could (and did) put his plans to ruin is beyond me. Really OOC for Manfroy.

That's another one as well. A loophole.

And there was no such thing as openly assist them. To the entire continent of Jugdral, Arvis was the enemy. No amount of explaining himself would do. Also, it was explained in the designer notes that Arvis actually found out that Julia was his half sister after the events of chapter 5 when he let Sigurd and Deirdre meet, but still didn't stop loving her. He was responsible for the chaos and suffering that ensued throughout the continent. So Arvis likely just embraced the role of being the villain here. 

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, based on things, the Loptyrians didn't actually do anything with Arvis' rule as emperor until they handed Julius the Loptyr tome. When Arvis took claim of the throne, Manfroy and the others backed off and just bided their time. Arvis likely didn't truly see them as a threat and just held up his end of the bargain. Also, are you forgetting that Loptyr was among the royalty? Arvis having Loptyr Blood and being the emperor would actually send Jugdral into a huge panic. So him being royalty actually would have been worse. 

If Arvis was thought to possibly be Loptyrian, the people would get into a frenzy. The 200 years of fear that Loptyr had instilled into the people was that bad.

You're expecting me to not fault Arvis for thinking the biggest threat wasn't a threat? 

I did not forget, I've played FE4 a disturbing number of times. The fact remains that there was no proof, and if it were that easy, how is anything stable in Grandbell? Wouldn't it have been easier to just do that to Kurth instead of somehow manipulating just about every country on the continent in some convoluted scheme that easily could have gone wrong? Arvis betraying them once he got into power being an easy one. I mean he was in a relationship with a Loptyrian. Why not use him? 

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

 To the entire continent of Jugdral, Arvis was the enemy. No amount of explaining himself would do.

How exactly? Arvis was said to usher an era of peace for a decade. Things didn't go wrong until the creepy dudes in cloaks came back and started doing obviously Loptyrian things like child hunting. By Gen 2, it is well known that Arvis is opposed to and powerless against the LC and that Julius is the true ruler of Grandbell. You're seriously expecting me to believe that "playing the villain" and possibly killing Seliph was a better idea than just outright helping him?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

You're expecting me to not fault Arvis for thinking the biggest threat wasn't a threat? 

I did not forget, I've played FE4 a disturbing number of times. The fact remains that there was no proof, and if it were that easy, how is anything stable in Grandbell? Wouldn't it have been easier to just do that to Kurth instead of somehow manipulating just about every country on the continent in some convoluted scheme that easily could have gone wrong? Arvis betraying them once he got into power being an easy one. I mean he was in a relationship with a Loptyrian. Why not use him? 

That's just it. Arvis didn't realize that Manfroy manipulated him into getting a Major Loptyr Blood. Even if Arvis kept an eye on them, and the Loptyrians were stable, what did Arvis have against them? Arvis didn't realize that he was part of their plans. In fact, he thought that hooking up with Deirdre was just part of the plan for Arvis to take the throne, since she's Kurth's daughter. 

Except how do we know there was no proof? If Arvis could have just denied these claims, he would have. But the fact that he didn't, the fact that the Loptyrians knows that he has Minor Loptyr blood, means that there was in fact proof that could be presented. And after Julius was born, the proof was from Julius' very existence. 

As for Prince Kurth, the fact that he was even involved in an affair with Cygun was a lucky stroke of luck for the Loptyrians, as she was the one that had a child with her bastard of a husband, and then by chance had a second child. This was what Manfroy needed. It was likely because of Cygun that they even discovered a that Loptyr's bloodline still exists. 

7 minutes ago, Køkø said:

How exactly? Arvis was said to usher an era of peace for a decade. Things didn't go wrong until the creepy dudes in cloaks came back and started doing obviously Loptyrian things like child hunting. By Gen 2, it is well known that Arvis is opposed to and powerless against the LC and that Julius is the true ruler of Grandbell. You're seriously expecting me to believe that "playing the villain" and possibly killing Seliph was a better idea than just outright helping him?

To us. WE know that it was all Arvis being manipulated, but that's just it. He was still the emperor, but to the players, it was all in name only, and all the atrocities were done in Arvis' name. He went from a benevolent emperor that fought for the people to a tyrant. They never knew that Julius and Manfroy were the ones actually in charge, and Arvis was nothing more than a puppet ruler.

It's even reflected on the captions that was said after chapter 5:

Quote

…Seventeen years since the Battle of Barhara.
The people who once enthusiastically welcomed Emperor Alvis were now experiencing extreme hardship under his oppresive rule.
And in the surrounding nations which fell under the empire’s rule, the people were forced to live in slavery like conditions.

Quote

Levin: 15 years have passed since Lord Alvis unified the continent. The early days of the empire weren’t actually all that bad. Initially, Emperor Alvis applied constitutional law to govern the people. It was a bit constraining, but it was a peaceful time in Judgral’s history. But several years back the emperor did a complete about-face. He became very rigid with his rule and adopted oppressive governing tactics. Now the ominous Loputo Sect is back, and their influence has spread across the land. Sacrificial rituals have also reappeared. Children all over are being rounded up for the resurrection of the Loputian lord. And anyone who attempts to rise up is either enslaved or executed… It’s obvious now that they’re attempting to restore the Loputo Empire.

Seliph and the others didn't even know about Julius until he was revealed later on and was explained to be the true villain here. No one realized that Arvis was no longer the true ruler, and just thought that Arvis just went mad with power. 

So yeah, at that point, Arvis really had no way of truly redeeming himself in the eyes of the people. 

10 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Oh boyyy. I forgot about that kid. Oh Aida, I hope you're mentioned in a memory prism at least.

You know, Saias' very existence makes me question two things. One, why did Manfroy try to kill Saias in the past, just cause he had the Holy Mark for Fala? I mean, just cause he can use Valflame doesn't mean that he would be a threat. Arvis still owned Valflame, and even then, that shouldn't have warranted a threat against Loptyr. However, I think this would actually be because Saias was a scandal, in how he was the illegitimate offspring of Arvis the Emperor. So he likely wanted to eliminate him for political reasons. 

Two, does Saias have Loptyr blood in him? If so, it actually is possible to have a sequel in Loptyr reviving. It's one of the things that my friend and I theorized was possible, so we wanted to play on that in how Loptyr existed in the time of the First Exalt.

[Jotari]

Skimming the conversation thus far and echoing the sentiment of others. I don't think Alvis hated Sigurd by any personal reason. His comment to Seliph was to paint himself as a villian. His actions make it clear comitting suicide by cop. Namely handing Tyfring over to Seliph. Sure he could have defected and joined Seliph if he really wanted to atone, but you have to question, after everything he did, would the rebel army really accept him? Would he have any right to just say sorry and be forgiven? I don't think so. We see the nuiance in him, but for Seliph and the others, he's nothing but the dastard that betrayed Sigurd and sold out the entire continent to Lopt.

[Køkø]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

That's just it. Arvis didn't realize that Manfroy manipulated him into getting a Major Loptyr Blood. Even if Arvis kept an eye on them, and the Loptyrians were stable, what did Arvis have against them? Arvis didn't realize that he was part of their plans. In fact, he thought that hooking up with Deirdre was just part of the plan for Arvis to take the throne, since she's Kurth's daughter. 

You know, I wouldn't have a problem if the villains in this game were more subtle and at least tried to hide their motives. They make it very clear who they are and what they want to do. They're so blatantly evil you'd have to be an idiot to trust them. You ask what Arvis would have against them? Maybe the fact that their reign was the darkest era in Jugdral's history? The fact that they blatantly state they wish to revive the empire, thereby directly going against Arvis' wishes? The requirement for this would be toppling Arvis' regime. That's grounds for execution right there.  You will not convince me that letting them sit right under him and doing nothing wasn't stupid. If you were the leader of country and received backing from a terrorist group, would you not expunge said terrorist group if it were in your power to do so? Especially if said terrorist group is directly against your way of running things? Why would they help you if they didn't have something to gain from it? 

 

On 2/7/2018 at 10:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

 

Except how do we know there was no proof? If Arvis could have just denied these claims, he would have. But the fact that he didn't, the fact that the Loptyrians knows that he has Minor Loptyr blood, means that there was in fact proof that could be presented. And after Julius was born, the proof was from Julius' very existence. 

The writers of the story have an obligation to prevent questions like these. They couldn't think of anything, so that's why there's none present. The LC had no proof Arvis was one of them. Julius was not born yet. They were "blackmailing"  him in Gen 1.    

 

On 2/7/2018 at 10:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

 

As for Prince Kurth, the fact that he was even involved in an affair with Cygun was a lucky stroke of luck for the Loptyrians, as she was the one that had a child with her bastard of a husband, and then by chance had a second child. This was what Manfroy needed. It was likely because of Cygun that they even discovered a that Loptyr's bloodline still exists. 

What was the point of this? This doesn't explain why Kurth wasn't used instead of Arvis. If anyone could just say "X is Loptyrian!" to anyone and have them executed, there's no reason why Kurth (who was sexually involved with one) couldn't have been used. Nothing would be stable if this were the case. 

 

On 2/7/2018 at 10:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

 

To us. WE know that it was all Arvis being manipulated, but that's just it. He was still the emperor, but to the players, it was all in name only, and all the atrocities were done in Arvis' name. He went from a benevolent emperor that fought for the people to a tyrant. They never knew that Julius and Manfroy were the ones actually in charge, and Arvis was nothing more than a puppet ruler. 

Seliph and the others didn't even know about Julius until he was revealed later on and was explained to be the true villain here. No one realized that Arvis was no longer the true ruler, and just thought that Arvis just went mad with power. 

Villager dialogue suggests otherwise. Only once is Arvis mentioned when complaints about the empire are made. Only their respective conquerors and the LC are mentioned in lieu of "the empire". 

Village North of Rados 

"These sacrificial rituals didn't show up until just recently." 

"Before that, Emperor Arvis wouldn't allow them.... What in tarnation happened?!"   

Left Village, East of Miletos 

"That Prince Julius just sends chills down my spine. That gaze of his draws you in and you just totally lose yourself in it. I've had many friends leave for Belhalla to worship him but now they're all missing...." 

Village South of the path to Miletos

(Shortened)

"However the Dark Lord has once again been resurrected. Crusaders, do protect us!"

All of this clearly indicates that people other than "us" know the LC actions are separate from Arvis and that Julius is the head of Grandbell. One could even infer from the first one that the LC did attempt the child hunts before Julius' birth, and Arvis directly stopped them.  

I don't know what to tell you regarding that excerpt from the opening script because it contradicts what the villagers say. I'll put more trust in what the people ingame say, not some faceless narration. This could be meant specifically for the player, to make them wonder what's really going on. 

In regards to Forseti, he was only conscious recently. It's possible he was the one who didn't know what was really going, and jumped to conclusions.  

 

On 2/7/2018 at 10:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

 

You know, Saias' very existence makes me question two things. One, why did Manfroy try to kill Saias in the past, just cause he had the Holy Mark for Fala? I mean, just cause he can use Valflame doesn't mean that he would be a threat. Arvis still owned Valflame, and even then, that shouldn't have warranted a threat against Loptyr. However, I think this would actually be because Saias was a scandal, in how he was the illegitimate offspring of Arvis the Emperor. So he likely wanted to eliminate him for political reasons. 

That's what makes Manfroy look even dumber. 

Cyas has no ties to the Grandbell throne, so it wasn't because of political reasons.   

 

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

 Sure he could have defected and joined Seliph if he really wanted to atone, but you have to question, after everything he did, would the rebel army really accept him? Would he have any right to just say sorry and be forgiven? I don't think so. We see the nuiance in him, but for Seliph and the others, he's nothing but the dastard that betrayed Sigurd and sold out the entire continent to Lopt.

See my above comments in regards to the people's view of Arvis. Acceptence? They need all the help they can get, another holy weapon on their side would be invaluable. And he wouldn't have to take orders from Seliph, he could do what he did in the prologue. (It'd be a nice throwback to have him help you in the final chapter) Areone can assist Seliph without taking orders, why not Arvis? 

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Køkø said:

See my above comments in regards to the people's view of Arvis. Acceptence? They need all the help they can get, another holy weapon on their side would be invaluable. And he wouldn't have to take orders from Seliph, he could do what he did in the prologue. (It'd be a nice throwback to have him help you in the final chapter) Areone can assist Seliph without taking orders, why not Arvis? 

Because Areone didn't murder Seliph's family. Alvis is their enemy.  Some of them even believe he is Loptyr. And as you pointed out, Manfroy is threatening Julia's life to keep him in line when he goes to fight Seliph. Alvis has fucked up and he knows it and just wants out by the time they fight him. I mean, what other alternative interpretation is there? You might say if he was really that suicidal he should have just slit his own throat, and maybe if this was a novel or tv series then that's exactly how his story would have ended. But being a game, they want to have a boss battle in there (and perhaps, much like how the audience would feel cheated if they were denied a boss battle, Alvis feels that Seliph deserves his justice and should be the one that gets to kill him).

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jotari

[Køkø]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Because Areone didn't murder Seliph's family. Alvis is their enemy.  Some of them even believe he is Loptyr. And as you pointed out, Manfroy is threatening Julia's life to keep him in line when he goes to fight Seliph. Alvis has fucked up and he knows it and just wants out by the time they fight him. I mean, what other alternative interpretation is there? You might say if he was really that suicidal he should have just slit his own throat, and maybe if this was a novel or tv series then that's exactly how his story would have ended. But being a game, they want to have a boss battle in there (and perhaps, much like how the audience would feel cheated if they were denied a boss battle, Alvis feels that Seliph deserves his justice and should be the one that gets to kill him).

He is the son of the man who murdered his aunt and cousin's father. Thracia is an antagonist throughout most of the game as well, what's your point? 

Who believes he's Loptyr? 

My point is that Julia shouldn't be alive in the first place if LC got their hands on her. 

I don't understand or agree with the last part.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

He is the son of the man who murdered his aunt and cousin's father. Thracia is an antagonist throughout most of the game as well, what's your point? 

Who believes he's Loptyr? 

My point is that Julia shouldn't be alive in the first place if LC got their hands on her. 

I don't understand or agree with the last part.

Yeah Areone is the son of the man who killed Leif's parents. What does that have to do with him? Trabant's whole reason for getting himself killed was so Areone could broker peace with him out of the equation. Because Trabant knew he could never join the libreration army after what he did to Cuan and Ethlin, even though it would be in his best interests to ally with them and see an end to the Empire (that's sort of a blatant theme of Chapter 9 that runs through less blatantly in Chapter 10, but it's still there).

Seliph speaks with Oifey at the end of the chapter asking if he thinks Alvis was Loptyr. Oifey says that "many" peopole believe him to be.

Can't argue with you on Julia there. He being brainwashed is pretty contrived. Would have worked much better if Manfroy was characterized as the one who wanted to kill her, but Julius was the arrogant twat who thought it amusing to dominate the wielder of Naga. But we get what was given, and Manfroy becomes an idiot at the very end of the game. He must be pretty old by that stage, maybe he was just going senile.

What's not to understand? They're writing for a video game. Video games need boss battles. If Alvis had killed himself before the player got a chance to fight him it would have felt unrewarding for the player. For an in universe perspective, I'm saying that Alvis was working in the interest of keeping Julia alive, while also believing it would be karmic justice to be defeated by the son of the man he murdered.

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You know, I wouldn't have a problem if the villains in this game were more subtle and at least tried to hide their motives. They make it very clear who they are and what they want to do. They're so blatantly evil you'd have to be an idiot to trust them. You ask what Arvis would have against them? Maybe the fact that their reign was the darkest era in Jugdral's history? The fact that they blatantly state they wish to revive the empire, thereby directly going against Arvis' wishes? The requirement for this would be toppling Arvis' regime. That's grounds for execution right there.  You will not convince me that letting them sit right under him and doing nothing wasn't stupid. If you were the leader of country and received backing from a terrorist group, would you not expunge said terrorist group if it were in your power to do so? Especially if said terrorist group is directly against your way of running things? Why would they help you if they didn't have something to gain from it? 

Except another issue is that it was precisely because of the Lopto Sect that Arvis even ascended the throne in the first place. They were the ones that had caused the disturbances that allowed Kurth to be murdered, frame Sigurd, eliminate any potential threats that might be Sigurd's ally, and so forth. Arvis owed a lot to them. Even if he knew that they wanted the Loptyr Empire to be reborn, he never realized that Deirdre was the key factor. Arvis didn't realize the woman that he found and fell in love with was the one that had would help him claim the throne, and then realized that Manfroy was the one that brought her there. Actually, there was also the other case of how they could hold something over him. Arvis was deeply in love with Deirdre and feared her finding out the truth about how him and Deirdre were half siblings. Well guess who else know of this? Manfroy. Manfroy could easily at that point threaten to expose the truth to Deirdre even, and Arvis would fear that she would abandon him just like his mother.

Fear is the factor that kept Arvis in place. Fear of his Loptyr lineage exposed, fear of losing Deirdre. Furthermore, Azel was intending on talking to Arvis, and Manfroy captured Azel and had him petrified, because Azel could have stopped the ambitions of the Lopto Sect. 

43 minutes ago, Køkø said:

The writers of the story have an obligation to prevent questions like these. They couldn't think of anything, so that's why there's none present. The LC had no proof Arvis was one of them. Julius was not born yet. They were "blackmailing"  him in Gen 1.    

Do we actually know that? How do we know for certain that they didn't? Again, you can blame the developers for not actually putting that info in, but just because we didn't actually see it doesn't mean there was no evidence present. The very fact that the Lopto Sect even knew in the first place that Cygun had Minor Loptyr Blood and had two children must have meant that they found evidence that explains it, because we have to remember that Maera was banished many years ago and his descendants were kept hidden in Spirit Forest, and the Lopto Sect had lost power years ago, so they had to have found a way to discover the lineage.

47 minutes ago, Køkø said:

What was the point of this? This doesn't explain why Kurth wasn't used instead of Arvis. If anyone could just say "X is Loptyrian!" to anyone and have them executed, there's no reason why Kurth (who was sexually involved with one) couldn't have been used. Nothing would be stable if this were the case. 

Actually, what was the point of your assertions? How would Manfroy and the Lopto Sect actually make use of Kurth, given that Kurth was Major Naga Blood.

49 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Villager dialogue suggests otherwise. Only once is Arvis mentioned when complaints about the empire are made. Only their respective conquerors and the LC are mentioned in lieu of "the empire". 

Village North of Rados 

"These sacrificial rituals didn't show up until just recently." 

"Before that, Emperor Arvis wouldn't allow them.... What in tarnation happened?!"   

Left Village, East of Miletos 

"That Prince Julius just sends chills down my spine. That gaze of his draws you in and you just totally lose yourself in it. I've had many friends leave for Belhalla to worship him but now they're all missing...." 

Village South of the path to Miletos

(Shortened)

"However the Dark Lord has once again been resurrected. Crusaders, do protect us!"

All of this clearly indicates that people other than "us" know the LC actions are separate from Arvis and that Julius is the head of Grandbell. One could even infer from the first one that the LC did attempt the child hunts before Julius' birth, and Arvis directly stopped them.  

I don't know what to tell you regarding that excerpt from the opening script because it contradicts what the villagers say. I'll put more trust in what the people ingame say, not some faceless narration. This could be meant specifically for the player, to make them wonder what's really going on. 

In regards to Forseti, he was only conscious recently. It's possible he was the one who didn't know what was really going, and jumped to conclusions.  

Pay attention to some of the details here. 

The villager in the first one questioned why Arvis was allowing this kind of tyranny. This ties in with how Arvis once ruled benevolently, but then suddenly went full tyrant. 

Second villager is commenting about strange Julius is. Doesn't mean that they think that he's Loptyr.

Third one, as Jotari said, many people thought that Arvis has revived as Loptyr, not Julius. Once again, he was the emperor, but to the players, it was only in name, while it was actually Arvis and Manfroy in charge.

Furthermore, by what means do you have to say that Forseti was JUST conscious recently? He revived and possessed Lewyn's body, and thus he would actually have far more knowledge than Lewyn himself does, and would know what was actually happening. 

54 minutes ago, Køkø said:

That's what makes Manfroy look even dumber. 

Cyas has no ties to the Grandbell throne, so it wasn't because of political reasons.   

No, it would still work out for political scandals. Saias was born BEFORE Arvis' marriage with Deirdre. If word got out that he had an illegitimate son, one, Arvis would go insane from that, because he did exactly what his father did, and two, we don't exactly know if the marriage between Arvis and Deirdre can be legal anymore, since we aren't sure what laws there are against such things. 

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yeah Areone is the son of the man who killed Leif's parents. What does that have to do with him? Trabant's whole reason for getting himself killed was so Areone could broker peace with him out of the equation. Because Trabant knew he could never join the libreration army after what he did to Cuan and Ethlin, even though it would be in his best interests to ally with them and see an end to the Empire (that's sort of a blatant theme of Chapter 9 that runs through less blatantly in Chapter 10, but it's still there).

 

My point is that he had a good reason to hold a grudge against Dozel, Freege,Velthomer, and Thracia but he doesn't. Seliph is your average goody-two shoes anime protagonist anyway, so why wouldn't he accept Arvis's help if offered? He isn't even angry when he confronts Arvis. Travant has a much more negative reputation than Arvis and I can still see Seliph accepting him. FE5 ruins his character and implies that the LC were manipulating him as well, giving him even more reason to actively fight against them on his own accord if not for Seliph. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

 

Seliph speaks with Oifey at the end of the chapter asking if he thinks Alvis was Loptyr. Oifey says that "many" peopole believe him to be.

Oifey cites "many people" believe that, but that sentiment is not shown in any of the civilian conversations. Who exactly is he referring to?  

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

 

Can't argue with you on Julia there. He being brainwashed is pretty contrived. Would have worked much better if Manfroy was characterized as the one who wanted to kill her, but Julius was the arrogant twat who thought it amusing to dominate the wielder of Naga. But we get what was given, and Manfroy becomes an idiot at the very end of the game. He must be pretty old by that stage, maybe he was just going senile.

Now that's how it should have been. This would tie in well to what he and Ishtar did in the previous chapter. How much control does Loptyr have over Julius? I doubt he would allow Julia to live. 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

 

What's not to understand? They're writing for a video game. Video games need boss battles. If Alvis had killed himself before the player got a chance to fight him it would have felt unrewarding for the player. For an in universe perspective, I'm saying that Alvis was working in the interest of keeping Julia alive, while also believing it would be karmic justice to be defeated by the son of the man he murdered.

I don't understand why Arvis needed to be a boss. Gwenchaos is the main antagonist of Tearring Saga and you never fight him once. 

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except another issue is that it was precisely because of the Lopto Sect that Arvis even ascended the throne in the first place. They were the ones that had caused the disturbances that allowed Kurth to be murdered, frame Sigurd, eliminate any potential threats that might be Sigurd's ally, and so forth. Arvis owed a lot to them. Even if he knew that they wanted the Loptyr Empire to be reborn, he never realized that Deirdre was the key factor. Arvis didn't realize the woman that he found and fell in love with was the one that had would help him claim the throne, and then realized that Manfroy was the one that brought her there. Actually, there was also the other case of how they could hold something over him. Arvis was deeply in love with Deirdre and feared her finding out the truth about how him and Deirdre were half siblings. Well guess who else know of this? Manfroy. Manfroy could easily at that point threaten to expose the truth to Deirdre even, and Arvis would fear that she would abandon him just like his mother.

If he didn't have a problem with betraying Sigurd, why would he have a problem with betraying the LC when they are the biggest threat to his regime? He didn't have to know the whole truth about Deirdre to prevent their schemes. Manfroy possibly exposing the truth to Deirdre is all the more reason to kill him. They had no proof.  

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Do we actually know that? How do we know for certain that they didn't? Again, you can blame the developers for not actually putting that info in, but just because we didn't actually see it doesn't mean there was no evidence present. The very fact that the Lopto Sect even knew in the first place that Cygun had Minor Loptyr Blood and had two children must have meant that they found evidence that explains it, because we have to remember that Maera was banished many years ago and his descendants were kept hidden in Spirit Forest, and the Lopto Sect had lost power years ago, so they had to have found a way to discover the lineage.

 

And what way is that, genius? You can at least agree that it's a flaw on the developer's part for not explaining that, so that's great considering we rarely agree on anything.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Actually, what was the point of your assertions? How would Manfroy and the Lopto Sect actually make use of Kurth, given that Kurth was Major Naga Blood.

Pay attention to some of the details here. 

The villager in the first one questioned why Arvis was allowing this kind of tyranny. This ties in with how Arvis once ruled benevolently, but then suddenly went full tyrant. 

Second villager is commenting about strange Julius is. Doesn't mean that they think that he's Loptyr.

Third one, as Jotari said, many people thought that Arvis has revived as Loptyr, not Julius. Once again, he was the emperor, but to the players, it was only in name, while it was actually Arvis and Manfroy in charge.

It's ironic that you're telling me to pay attention when you missed a very obvious point. We're not talking to each other, everything we type is recorded. Seriously, go back and look.You claimed that the LC could tell everyone that Arvis had Loptyr blood without proof and they would believe them because of the witch trials. I asked if it was that easy, why not simply frame Kurth? 

What use would they have for Kurth? He was already next in line for the throne, there was no need for them to rely on a  continent wide scheme somehow going perfectly. Arvis and Deirdre still could have produced an heir without killing Kurth. Why couldn't they have used his love for Cigyun and Deirdre against him? If one were to argue that they wanted to get rid of him because his Naga blood, I'd say OK. But the fact that they don't kill Julia is what makes me propose these hypothetical scenarios.  

The first villager dialogue also supports my claim that they know Arvis is a good emperor, and that something has gone wrong. You'd have to be an idiot to think that someone who's actively against something for years suddenly becoming cool with it is normal. No one ever calls him a tyrant or even cites him as the reason for the empire's actions. The LC DO NOT hide, everyone knows they've taken over. 

Are you serious? The second village dialogue is a direct reference to the child hunts. They know Arvis is not responsible for them. They went off to worship Julius/Loptyr, not Arvis, who's supposedly head of the empire. How does this not support my claim? 

I addressed that above. Julius is worshiped and recognized as the leader his kingdom, not Arvis.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Furthermore, by what means do you have to say that Forseti was JUST conscious recently? He revived and possessed Lewyn's body, and thus he would actually have far more knowledge than Lewyn himself does, and would know what was actually happening. 

 

We don't have an exact date, but we do know that he possessed Levin's body sometime into Gen 2. Recent in the context of Gen 2. Dragon's are not omniscient beings, why would he know about Arvis' situation more than anyone else? He's even outright proven wrong, what in the world are you talking about?

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

No, it would still work out for political scandals. Saias was born BEFORE Arvis' marriage with Deirdre. If word got out that he had an illegitimate son, one, Arvis would go insane from that, because he did exactly what his father did, and two, we don't exactly know if the marriage between Arvis and Deirdre can be legal anymore, since we aren't sure what laws there are against such things. 

What? 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Køkø said:

If he didn't have a problem with betraying Sigurd, why would he have a problem with betraying the LC when they are the biggest threat to his regime? He didn't have to know the whole truth about Deirdre to prevent their schemes. Manfroy possibly exposing the truth to Deirdre is all the more reason to kill him. They had no proof.  

Except Deirdre WOULD believe them if they told her the truth. Arvis screwed that up by having Deirdre meet Sigurd in the first place because of Arvis' own paranoia. Meaning that if Manfroy told her the truth, she would believe him because she knows herself that it was the truth, and Arvis knows that. Plus, even as the emperor, given how much the Lopto Sect has manipulated events, they are not so easily disposed of, meaning that Arvis is wary that there would be possibilities that there were still some remnants underground that can avoid his gaze, meaning the information can still get out. 

So Arvis cannot try to make any reckless moves against them if they have anything up their sleeve. Also, it occurred to me that the very fact that the Lopto Sect had been kept hidden with Arvis help means that they can easily gather evidence in the fact that Arvis DID help the Lopto Sect. They also manipulated events and could even reveal Arvis was the one that was behind Prince Kurth's death, and Sigurd was not truly the villain there. Again, the very case of this plot to claim the throne, the hiding of the cult, and so forth are all more methods of gathering more evidence. Arvis himself wasn't manipulating events directly, the Lopto Sect were. So they had the most cards on to play with. But at the same time, only enough to keep the game at a stalemate until Loptyr was born again. 

11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

And what way is that, genius? You can at least agree that it's a flaw on the developer's part for not explaining that, so that's great considering we rarely agree on anything.

I'll agree to that much that the game didn't present how they could expose it. Bet if we got a remake, they might actually explain. Since there's the case of lore being changed with brands actually being able to appear if you have the bloodline, they might actually show that Minor Blood also manifest a brand on them, just a more incomplete one. In that regard, they would have the blackmail materials needed.

Actually, how exactly did Arvis even know that he had Loptyr Blood from that he was a descendant of Maera in the first place? He can easily know that he's got Major Fala blood with Valflame and the Brand, but how did he know about the Minor Loptyr Blood? If he managed to discover evidence over that, then Manfroy could have discovered it as well. 

13 minutes ago, Køkø said:

It's ironic that you're telling me to pay attention when you missed a very obvious point. We're not talking to each other, everything we type is recorded. Seriously, go back and look.You claimed that the LC could tell everyone that Arvis had Loptyr blood without proof and they would believe them because of the witch trials. I asked if it was that easy, why not simply frame Kurth? 

What use would they have for Kurth? He was already next in line for the throne, there was no need for them to rely on a  continent wide scheme somehow going perfectly. Arvis and Deirdre still could have produced an heir without killing Kurth. Why couldn't they have used his love for Cigyun and Deirdre against him? If one were to argue that they wanted to get rid of him because his Naga blood, I'd say OK. But the fact that they don't kill Julia is what makes me propose these hypothetical scenarios.  

Frame Kurth? He was still Major Naga blood and heir to the throne, while he simply had an affair, but he was not yet married at the time. He would easily get out of the situation. Arvis was not the true ruler of the kingdom though, as the king on his deathbed told Arvis that the ruler needed to be of Naga's blood and male I believe. So Kurth could easily be vindicated of the issues here. 

Also, even if they wanted to just hook Julius and Deirdre up, Kurth was still the issue in that he was still in possession of Naga's tome and had Major Naga Blood, so he was a threat. Yes, you can say that they should have gotten rid of Julia, but Kurth had both the bloodline and tome, and on Julia's case, Manfroy was sure that so long as they had Naga's tome, they were fine. Yes, still stupid on their part. 

25 minutes ago, Køkø said:

The first villager dialogue also supports my claim that they know Arvis is a good emperor, and that something has gone wrong. You'd have to be an idiot to think that someone who's actively against something for years suddenly becoming cool with it is normal. No one ever calls him a tyrant or even cites him as the reason for the empire's actions. The LC DO NOT hide, everyone knows they've taken over. 

They cannot understand why he turned. That's precisely what the narration even said. The first years of Arvis rule was just and kind. Forseti also mentions that as well. But then everything changed, and no one really understands what's up anymore. But the fact is, Arvis is STILL the emperor here. He's right there, not doing anything to stop it in the eyes of the people, but in fact condoning these actions. That's precisely the issue. To the people, they are seeing that Arvis is in fact working with the Loptyr Empire once again and reviving it. 

30 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Are you serious? The second village dialogue is a direct reference to the child hunts. They know Arvis is not responsible for them. They went off to worship Julius/Loptyr, not Arvis, who's supposedly head of the empire. How does this not support my claim? 

They said that they are going to worship Julius. Okay? But where does it actually say that they believe that Julius is Loptyr again? I don't recall any villager actually saying that they believe that Julius is Loptyr. All this second villager says is that Julius has this weird feeling that he emits to others. We know this is because of Loptyr, but the villagers don't know that its because of Loptyr.

32 minutes ago, Køkø said:

We don't have an exact date, but we do know that he possessed Levin's body sometime into Gen 2. Recent in the context of Gen 2. Dragon's are not omniscient beings, why would he know about Arvis' situation more than anyone else? He's even outright proven wrong, what in the world are you talking about?

After Gen 1, but before Gen 2, actually. Forseti revived Lewyn after he was killed by Manfroy, and as Lewyn, he went to his nation and renounced his claim on the throne and left. It was by no means recent in Gen 2 that he's been possessed, but rather for years now that he was, during Arvis' rule. Furthermore, notice exactly when Forseti is actually dumping exposition. He dumps them right when Seliph begins to learn more and more about the war, and starts getting the explanation. Forseti isn't omniscient, but he knows what's going on most of the time, and he times these things at the right time for Seliph so that he can better grasp the situation, grow, and mature from it. Furthermore, Julisu became possessed by Loptyr when he was a child. Deirdre died, but she warped Julia away. If I recall, it was Lewyn that's been caring for her ever since, though not entirely sure on this part. Would need to check up on it.

36 minutes ago, Køkø said:

What? 

1) Arvis hates his father with a passion. His father was a philanderer that cheated on his mother. You think Arvis would not have a huge reaction if he learns that he has an illegitimate son, a case of how he might have been just like his father? Manfroy captured and petrified Azel when Azel was going to try and talk to Arvis after Arvis took the throne, because it would damage the plans. So Saias could have been like that. It might have made Arvis act irrationally and do something that could damage Manfroy's plan, since this could actually have been before Julius was conceived even. 

2) If he has an illegitimate son, we have no idea how this would clash with any laws since it could make it that Arvis has no right to be married to Deirdre in that regard. Frankly, this is another thing. There's a lot of affairs that happens in this series, and we aren't sure if this would clash with any laws. I mean, can Arvis and Deirdre actually marry when Sigurd and Deirdre were married first? 

[Køkø]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except Deirdre WOULD believe them if they told her the truth. Arvis screwed that up by having Deirdre meet Sigurd in the first place because of Arvis' own paranoia. Meaning that if Manfroy told her the truth, she would believe him because she knows herself that it was the truth, and Arvis knows that. Plus, even as the emperor, given how much the Lopto Sect has manipulated events, they are not so easily disposed of, meaning that Arvis is wary that there would be possibilities that there were still some remnants underground that can avoid his gaze, meaning the information can still get out. 

So Arvis cannot try to make any reckless moves against them if they have anything up their sleeve. Also, it occurred to me that the very fact that the Lopto Sect had been kept hidden with Arvis help means that they can easily gather evidence in the fact that Arvis DID help the Lopto Sect. They also manipulated events and could even reveal Arvis was the one that was behind Prince Kurth's death, and Sigurd was not truly the villain there. Again, the very case of this plot to claim the throne, the hiding of the cult, and so forth are all more methods of gathering more evidence. Arvis himself wasn't manipulating events directly, the Lopto Sect were. So they had the most cards on to play with. But at the same time, only enough to keep the game at a stalemate until Loptyr was born again. 

When did I question whether Deirdre would believe them or not? Her memories come back anyway, so where did that come from? None of what you said refutes the fact that Arvis not doing anything about the LC was stupid. He wasn't powerless until Julius got the book.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Actually, how exactly did Arvis even know that he had Loptyr Blood from that he was a descendant of Maera in the first place? He can easily know that he's got Major Fala blood with Valflame and the Brand, but how did he know about the Minor Loptyr Blood? If he managed to discover evidence over that, then Manfroy could have discovered it as well. 

I'm just as clueless as you are. I'm assuming Manfroy told him about the Spirit Forest. 

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Frame Kurth? He was still Major Naga blood and heir to the throne, while he simply had an affair, but he was not yet married at the time. He would easily get out of the situation. Arvis was not the true ruler of the kingdom though, as the king on his deathbed told Arvis that the ruler needed to be of Naga's blood and male I believe. So Kurth could easily be vindicated of the issues here. 

What? 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

They cannot understand why he turned. That's precisely what the narration even said. The first years of Arvis rule was just and kind. Forseti also mentions that as well. But then everything changed, and no one really understands what's up anymore. But the fact is, Arvis is STILL the emperor here. He's right there, not doing anything to stop it in the eyes of the people, but in fact condoning these actions. That's precisely the issue. To the people, they are seeing that Arvis is in fact working with the Loptyr Empire once again and reviving it. 

Where did I say I didn't understand that? I won't deny that there may be people who jumped to that conclusion but in no way does the in game dialogue suggest that it's a majority. In fact, it's never shown at all. My point is that Arvis was not irredeemable.  

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

They said that they are going to worship Julius. Okay? But where does it actually say that they believe that Julius is Loptyr again? I don't recall any villager actually saying that they believe that Julius is Loptyr. All this second villager says is that Julius has this weird feeling that he emits to others. We know this is because of Loptyr, but the villagers don't know that its because of Loptyr.

You're not paying attention again. I never said they believed Julius was Loptyr, I said they worshiped and acknowledged him as the head of Grandbell. Not his father.  

Arvis + Grandbell = peace 

Julius + Grandbell = Loptyr 

Only an idiot wouldn't make the connection. 

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

After Gen 1, but before Gen 2, actually. Forseti revived Lewyn after he was killed by Manfroy, and as Lewyn, he went to his nation and renounced his claim on the throne and left. It was by no means recent in Gen 2 that he's been possessed, but rather for years now that he was, during Arvis' rule. Furthermore, notice exactly when Forseti is actually dumping exposition. He dumps them right when Seliph begins to learn more and more about the war, and starts getting the explanation. Forseti isn't omniscient, but he knows what's going on most of the time, and he times these things at the right time for Seliph so that he can better grasp the situation, grow, and mature from it. Furthermore, Julisu became possessed by Loptyr when he was a child. Deirdre died, but she warped Julia away. If I recall, it was Lewyn that's been caring for her ever since, though not entirely sure on this part. Would need to check up on it.

That entire incident is nebulous. We don't know when Lewyn died or when Forseti took over. It doesn't change the fact that Forseti doesn't know more than anyone else regarding Arvis. He was wrong about him. 

Julius is only 15 during FE4, so it couldn't have been that long ago. 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

1) Arvis hates his father with a passion. His father was a philanderer that cheated on his mother. You think Arvis would not have a huge reaction if he learns that he has an illegitimate son, a case of how he might have been just like his father?

If there were dialogue that supported this I would. What does "huge reaction" mean? I think some of your head canon is spilling in there.  

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

If he has an illegitimate son, we have no idea how this would clash with any laws since it could make it that Arvis has no right to be married to Deirdre in that regard. Frankly, this is another thing. There's a lot of affairs that happens in this series, and we aren't sure if this would clash with any laws. I mean, can Arvis and Deirdre actually marry when Sigurd and Deirdre were married first? 

What laws are you referring to? Arvis is married to Deirdre because Azmur chose him. He was the head of the royal guard after all. Sigurd and Deirdre being married first means nothing because Sigurd was dead. Cyas has no relation to the Grandbell throne, and is not under any circumstances a political threat. If you're going to make hypotheticals, make them based off of what we do know.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Køkø