Rank the Rally Skills from Worst to Best

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Indeed, it's the same in Heroes though. And sure, they're imprecise, (well, the lightning isn't) but I'd say their biggest problem is their price. Despite their downsides, the ones that you get for free are probably getting used, because they're that good during player phase. Also, as said before, they build up guard gauge faster, meaning they increase survivability as well.

And I consider the price another issue on top of the other downsides. And which ones do you get for free? There's the one Lightning from Ophelia's paralogue (assuming you used Odin enough to marry him off; given his rep as one of the most disagreed on units in Fates, that isn't necessarily something I'd assume), and that's about it. And while they build up shield gauge faster, dual guards are something I honestly see as unreliable.

[Aut]

14 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

When you're attacking. That needs to be emphasized. And the braves have some nasty downsides in Fates, on top of accuracy issues (-4 Defense and Resistance? No thank you. Halved strength or magic until you attack again? Forget it). Given the complaints about misses, they're not something I want to be touching with a 10-foot pole. Especially when missing means that the user eats a nasty counter thanks to the defense drops, in the case of the melee weapons.

And then I see his non-speed and Resistance stats and... is that the sound of a toilet flushing I hear? Because it sure sounds like it... Anyway, to keep things short, you're wasting your time - and mine - trying (and failing) to convince me Niles is good, so do us both a favor and bother me about him no more. I don't give a fig about capture when I have to use a lackluster unit to do it. WRT the others, Anna is DLC, but I have access to her map; I admit, though, that might not be the case for everyone. Nina might require me using him for a while, but I see it as worth it when she outclasses him (admittedly, that might depend on her mother). And Selena might be able to be a peg, but I don't see the appeal when there's better uses for my limited Heart Seals.

And then I went and said that Rally Resistance was hindered by being learned by a healing class, because more often than not they're better off, you know, keeping my army alive, dammit. Which, now that I think about it, might make it take a dive.

While I’m not who you responded to, I do wish to address some of your points. First things first, while Brave weapons do have some accuracy issues and lower your defenses (in some cases), they often make up for it by being the strongest offensive options around, which is mostly relevant for Lightning on generals (since It’s by far the most effective way of taking them down) and on Master Ninjas/Swordmasters (since doubling those guys is super hard). And if you’re conserned about enemy phase, you can, you know, Trade. Not exactly the hardest thing in the world to do.

On Niles, I do believe you overestimate the stats needed to be effective in Fates, and underestimate just how much Niles can do. You can’t just ignore the shining bow, it has a solid 13 might, and hits the stat that is frequently lower than Defense. On maps like the boat map the magic needed to 2HKO is about 28 for most enemies - a number which a promoted Niles can quite easily hit. And I think you overestimate how hard it is to capture rallyman - the 0% growths playthrough captures Rallyman, so this is something that can be done no matter what (whether or not it’s worth it is a different question). And since Nina will likely fail to have higher Strength or Magic than Niles (at least based off of growths), and fail to outclass him significantly in any other way,  I question whether or not she really outclasses him. Especially since he has added utility in being able to capture an enemy unit (rallyman) that’s really valuable, (I’d include the Pegasi for rally speed and Haitaka as other potential boons, but they come before Nina is likely to join. And you of course think they aren’t worth capturing, but considering your reasoning is I don’t want to, I’ll ignore that argument). All in all, I find your argument weak since it basically amounts to I don’t want to use Niles, but find it hard to take down since it is true that you do not want to use Niles. 

Also tangent Rally Res is definitely bad since Elise levels slow AF and has kind bad combat in strategist (fire tomes with 3 might, yay).

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Aut said:

While I’m not who you responded to, I do wish to address some of your points. First things first, while Brave weapons do have some accuracy issues and lower your defenses (in some cases), they often make up for it by being the strongest offensive options around, which is mostly relevant for Lightning on generals (since It’s by far the most effective way of taking them down) and on Master Ninjas/Swordmasters (since doubling those guys is super hard). And if you’re conserned about enemy phase, you can, you know, Trade. Not exactly the hardest thing in the world to do.

On Niles, I do believe you overestimate the stats needed to be effective in Fates, and underestimate just how much Niles can do. You can’t just ignore the shining bow, it has a solid 13 might, and hits the stat that is frequently lower than Defense. On maps like the boat map the magic needed to 2HKO is about 28 for most enemies - a number which a promoted Niles can quite easily hit. And I think you overestimate how hard it is to capture rallyman - the 0% growths playthrough captures Rallyman, so this is something that can be done no matter what (whether or not it’s worth it is a different question). And since Nina will likely fail to have higher Strength or Magic than Niles (at least based off of growths), and fail to outclass him significantly in any other way,  I question whether or not she really outclasses him. Especially since he has added utility in being able to capture an enemy unit (rallyman) that’s really valuable, (I’d include the Pegasi for rally speed and Haitaka as other potential boons, but they come before Nina is likely to join. And you of course think they aren’t worth capturing, but considering your reasoning is I don’t want to, I’ll ignore that argument). All in all, I find your argument weak since it basically amounts to I don’t want to use Niles, but find it hard to take down since it is true that you do not want to use Niles. 

Also tangent Rally Res is definitely bad since Elise levels slow AF and has kind bad combat in strategist (fire tomes with 3 might, yay).

And as I see it, Master Ninjas and Swordmasters are the very stuff brave weapons' accuracy is most likely to bite me in the ass against - is two attacks really that great when there's a good chance you are greeted by "MISS!!" on at least one of them??? Also, trade equipping another weapon is inconvenient as [EFF!], and might not be an option depending on the circumstances. So way to not help your case there. And this is ignoring that the price on braves makes them, how you say, a rip-off.

Or maybe I just absolutely refuse to trust the word of others on what he can do after he failed me in a big way, and as retribution for his failure, refuse to give him a second chance knowing full damn well he'll just blow it again. Which is my response to being disappointed by units that get a lot of hype and fail to live up to it. As for capture, I personally see Haitaka as aggravating to deal with, and not worth capturing just for that reason alone. It does not help that I often see mooks as not worth giving up unit slots for over actual characters. So long story short, you're getting nowhere. Do us both a favor and drop the subject, because my heart and mind are set, and you will never change my mind on Niles. Ever.

Then... what would you do with Elise? 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Cysx]

16 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And I consider the price another issue on top of the other downsides. And which ones do you get for free? There's the one Lightning from Ophelia's paralogue (assuming you used Odin enough to marry him off; given his rep as one of the most disagreed on units in Fates, that isn't necessarily something I'd assume), and that's about it. And while they build up shield gauge faster, dual guards are something I honestly see as unreliable.

You might not get any other in Conquest, actually. Might have been thinking of Rev were I do believe you're given a bunch.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

You might not get any other in Conquest, actually. Might have been thinking of Rev were I do believe you're given a bunch.

Okay then. Too bad that it isn't until the very end. And that they're generally better sold.

22 hours ago, Cysx said:

Why would the forge system not be worth it?

Simply put, I find the forge system as it is in Fates tedious, impractical, and near unusable due to heavy reliance on online to get gems. Not helping is that you only get one gem type (two if you're playing Revelation) with any regularity, and that the gem type you have at your castle is random.

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay then. Too bad that it isn't until the very end. And that they're generally better sold.

Simply put, I find the forge system as it is in Fates tedious, impractical, and near unusable due to heavy reliance on online to get gems. Not helping is that you only get one gem type (two if you're playing Revelation) with any regularity, and that the gem type you have at your castle is random.

It's not though. I forge all the time and I never use online to get gems. I don't even know how you get gems using online. Visiting other people's castles?

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not though. I forge all the time and I never use online to get gems. I don't even know how you get gems using online. Visiting other people's castles?

Exactly. And I call BS when you have to fight four battles to be able to harvest again. Or wait a day. And sure, there is the ore swap, but you need 5 ores to swap, and with how much you have to wait until you can harvest again... yeah. Another nail in the coffin of the forge system in Fates is that the improvements are rather minimal for how much time and money I have to crap away.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

43 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Exactly. And I call BS when you have to fight four battles to be able to harvest again. Or wait a day. And sure, there is the ore swap, but you need 5 ores to swap, and with how much you have to wait until you can harvest again... yeah.

Maybe you just have a different metric for what defines near unuseable. My most recent playthrough of the game, Lunatic Conquest I had the following forges, done without grinding money or gems or burning through extra maps (barely even recruited the child units). Just a regular casual playthrough, not marathoning the entire game in one day (and by casual I mean casually done, not casual mode, not that that has anything to do with anything).

Silver Bow+1

Violin Bow+1

Iron Lance+1

Raider Axe+1

Javelin+2

Killer Lance +1

Steel Lance+2

Hand Axe +2

Bronze Axe+3

Killing Edge+1

Hand Axe+3

Javelin+1

Iron Axe+1

Killer Bow+1

Rubber Bow+2

Bronze Sword+3

Silver Axe+1

Steel Axe+1

Bolt Axe+1

Thunder Jolt!!!!+3 (probably a Thunder Tome, no doubt named such for Odin use, but on Camilla right now).

Bronze Lance+1

Iron Sword +2

Bronze Axe +1

And then in my inventory

Ruby x32

Crystals x14

Sapphire x8

Onyx x12

Sapphire x8

That's way more than I even thought. 23 forged weapons, and consider a +2 weapon means an extra forge and a +3 weapon means an extra three forges were needed, the number of forges is way higher. If you're not getting enough gems, then it simply means you're not focusing on gem crafting enough. Upgrade your arena and ore mine asap, win arena battles, talk to the people in your castle, they give you free stuff. And you can even get more by visitin gother castles which I'm not even doing (as I clearly don't need to, although being able to forge Naginatas in Conquest would be nice so). The weapons necessary for forging are a way bigger limitation to forging than the ore required. In fact, I think I must have grinded Ghostly Gold to afford so many weapons (check your own file to see if 12 Hand Axes is viable without DLC), but I think it's clear from the sheer number of gems I have in reserve that they certainly weren't an issue. I think if one forged even half as much as I have it would be considered a more than viable feature in the game.

EDIT: Just checked my other three files. Birthright 35 forged weapons, Conquest 27 forged weapons, Revelations 34 forged weapons. All on Hard mode. So my slightly more efficiency focused Lunatic Conquest run is lower than my other playthroughs despite needing the forges more, although there's probably some deception in these numbers as I'm not counting +2s and +3s by the true number of forges needed. The true number is much higher than these.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Jotari

[Aut]

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And as I see it, Master Ninjas and Swordmasters are the very stuff brave weapons' accuracy is most likely to bite me in the ass against - is two attacks really that great when there's a good chance you are greeted by "MISS!!" on at least one of them??? Also, trade equipping another weapon is inconvenient as [EFF!], and might not be an option depending on the circumstances. So way to not help your case there. And this is ignoring that the price on braves makes them, how you say, a rip-off.

Or maybe I just absolutely refuse to trust the word of others on what he can do after he failed me in a big way, and as retribution for his failure, refuse to give him a second chance knowing full damn well he'll just blow it again. Which is my response to being disappointed by units that get a lot of hype and fail to live up to it. As for capture, I personally see Haitaka as aggravating to deal with, and not worth capturing just for that reason alone. It does not help that I often see mooks as not worth giving up unit slots for over actual characters. So long story short, you're getting nowhere. Do us both a favor and drop the subject, because my heart and mind are set, and you will never change my mind on Niles. Ever.

Then... what would you do with Elise? 

I don’t really care about the whole Master Ninja Swordmasters bit anyways, since that chapter’s easy enough with good Corrin Builds, but you still didn’t talk about Lightning Vs. Generals, which I feel is most certaintly a relevant use for it. Attack needed to 2HKO is 33, and Leo at base is doing 23 (without taking into account WT however, which depending on the general can be a positive or negative). While Leo’s attack isn’t too likely to get to the point of an ORKO on the lance ones, if for example you use Camilla and have her activate Savage Blow, Leo’s hitting the stat requirements for all of the kills and can help set up attack stance kills with other units. Or you can have him attack one with Axes, which may or may not be relevant, I don’t remeber the exact layout of Ch. 18. It’s at the very least useful in that regard. 

On trade equipping other weapons, if you’re argument against it is assuming that the person doing it is incompetent, than that’s a bad argument.

I’m going to be completely honest here, I think your problem is you don’t play in the most effective way. The impression I get is when you see a captured pegasus knight, you see a unit with weak combat. When I see a captured pegasus knight, I see rally speed, and flying rescue, which I find quite valuable. And that’s fine. But you don’t get to assume that everyone plays the same what as you. Your argument against rally speed was that’s it’s too hard to get, and when told ways to get it you say I don’t want to. It’s not even that hard to capture a pegasus knight, just deploy Niles during Ch. 11, that’s all you have to do. It’s fine if you dont’t want to, but you say that and then use that as your argument as to why it’s not that good. That’s not an argument. That’s saying I don’t want to use something, so it’s bad. It’s even worse with Rallyman, since it’s really not that hard to capture him, since if you bait him he’s the only one that attacks, and it’s not rocket science figuring out how to capture him from there. It’s to the point that I’d say that capturing Rallyman is fairly easy to do, as long as you want to. And I feel similarly to your argument against rally strength. Your argument from what I’ve gathered is that you don’t like the classline that has rally strength, therefore it’s not existing, therefore it’s bad, which makes the leap that everyone else doesn’t like berserkers, or that the aren’t willing to put up with it to get Rally strength. While it’s true that you aren’t, you make the assumption that others play the sam way, which makes your argument weak. And really, that’s what makes all your arguments here weak, the assumption that everyone is playing the exact same way as you, so they have the same resources as you.

Elise does whatever I need her to do. Don’t really care about her as a unit, she’s useful until she’s not.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Maybe you just have a different metric for what defines near unuseable. My most recent playthrough of the game, Lunatic Conquest I had the following forges, done without grinding money or gems or burning through extra maps (barely even recruited the child units). Just a regular casual playthrough, not marathoning the entire game in one day (and by casual I mean casually done, not casual mode, not that that has anything to do with anything).

Silver Bow+1

Violin Bow+1

Iron Lance+1

Raider Axe+1

Javelin+2

Killer Lance +1

Steel Lance+2

Hand Axe +2

Bronze Axe+3

Killing Edge+1

Hand Axe+3

Javelin+1

Iron Axe+1

Killer Bow+1

Rubber Bow+2

Bronze Sword+3

Silver Axe+1

Steel Axe+1

Bolt Axe+1

Thunder Jolt!!!!+3 (probably a Thunder Tome, no doubt named such for Odin use, but on Camilla right now).

Bronze Lance+1

Iron Sword +2

Bronze Axe +1

And then in my inventory

Ruby x32

Crystals x14

Sapphire x8

Onyx x12

Sapphire x8

That's way more than I even thought. 23 forged weapons, and consider a +2 weapon means an extra forge and a +3 weapon means an extra three forges were needed, the number of forges is way higher. If you're not getting enough gems, then it simply means you're not focusing on gem crafting enough. Upgrade your arena and ore mine asap, win arena battles, talk to the people in your castle, they give you free stuff. And you can even get more by visitin gother castles which I'm not even doing (as I clearly don't need to, although being able to forge Naginatas in Conquest would be nice so). The weapons necessary for forging are a way bigger limitation to forging than the ore required. In fact, I think I must have grinded Ghostly Gold to afford so many weapons (check your own file to see if 12 Hand Axes is viable without DLC), but I think it's clear from the sheer number of gems I have in reserve that they certainly weren't an issue. I think if one forged even half as much as I have it would be considered a more than viable feature in the game.

EDIT: Just checked my other three files. Birthright 35 forged weapons, Conquest 27 forged weapons, Revelations 34 forged weapons. All on Hard mode. So my slightly more efficiency focused Lunatic Conquest run is lower than my other playthroughs despite needing the forges more, although there's probably some deception in these numbers as I'm not counting +2s and +3s by the true number of forges needed. The true number is much higher than these.

So I have to ignore the stuff that's actually crucial for victory (like the staff shop) and instead prioritize the unimportant stuff for upgrades? *slow clap* Talk about digging yourself deeper, because that's what you just did. Also, the chance of getting a gem is rather small considering that there's much more of a chance that you get something else. Anyway, I generally think a slightly more powerful special weapon (any weapon with limits to how much you can get) is not worth having less of it to go around. And even just looking at the stuff I can get infinites of, it'd get really pricey really quickly, which means you'd need DLC to not have it be a massive drain on your money, especially in Revelation, and I know better than to assume everyone has DLC, because that just is untrue. Btw, I'm not sure 12 hand axes is feasible without DLC unless you married Arthur off, at least not on Conquest. (There are 10 hand axes in the level 3 shop, and Arthur comes with one on Conquest; on Revelation, Camilla and Scarlet both have one)

8 hours ago, Aut said:

I don’t really care about the whole Master Ninja Swordmasters bit anyways, since that chapter’s easy enough with good Corrin Builds, but you still didn’t talk about Lightning Vs. Generals, which I feel is most certaintly a relevant use for it. Attack needed to 2HKO is 33, and Leo at base is doing 23 (without taking into account WT however, which depending on the general can be a positive or negative). While Leo’s attack isn’t too likely to get to the point of an ORKO on the lance ones, if for example you use Camilla and have her activate Savage Blow, Leo’s hitting the stat requirements for all of the kills and can help set up attack stance kills with other units. Or you can have him attack one with Axes, which may or may not be relevant, I don’t remeber the exact layout of Ch. 18. It’s at the very least useful in that regard. 

On trade equipping other weapons, if you’re argument against it is assuming that the person doing it is incompetent, than that’s a bad argument.

I’m going to be completely honest here, I think your problem is you don’t play in the most effective way. The impression I get is when you see a captured pegasus knight, you see a unit with weak combat. When I see a captured pegasus knight, I see rally speed, and flying rescue, which I find quite valuable. And that’s fine. But you don’t get to assume that everyone plays the same what as you. Your argument against rally speed was that’s it’s too hard to get, and when told ways to get it you say I don’t want to. It’s not even that hard to capture a pegasus knight, just deploy Niles during Ch. 11, that’s all you have to do. It’s fine if you dont’t want to, but you say that and then use that as your argument as to why it’s not that good. That’s not an argument. That’s saying I don’t want to use something, so it’s bad. It’s even worse with Rallyman, since it’s really not that hard to capture him, since if you bait him he’s the only one that attacks, and it’s not rocket science figuring out how to capture him from there. It’s to the point that I’d say that capturing Rallyman is fairly easy to do, as long as you want to. And I feel similarly to your argument against rally strength. Your argument from what I’ve gathered is that you don’t like the classline that has rally strength, therefore it’s not existing, therefore it’s bad, which makes the leap that everyone else doesn’t like berserkers, or that the aren’t willing to put up with it to get Rally strength. While it’s true that you aren’t, you make the assumption that others play the sam way, which makes your argument weak. And really, that’s what makes all your arguments here weak, the assumption that everyone is playing the exact same way as you, so they have the same resources as you.

Elise does whatever I need her to do. Don’t really care about her as a unit, she’s useful until she’s not.

Then why'd you bring it up? And regarding Lightning on Generals, (1) Lightning has a laughable 1 might, and (2) most Generals use lances. When I can't get a follow-up, I'd feel I'd best make my one hit count. While Lightning gets around Wary Fighter, I would need both hits to connect for it to come out better than anything else - which I'm not willing to assume with no true hit, and against a class that often has WTA over tomes. Anyway, looking at the stats, the non-boss Generals in chapter 18 have 42/12 HP/Res. Most, if not all the non-boss Generals have lances (I'm not sure about Lunatic, but not all of them have Wary Fighter on Hard). Leo has 20 base magic. He would need 34/35 attack (before WTD since WTD negates weapon rank bonuses; I don't remember, but there might be some B ranks among the Generals) to ORKO. I say this once more, for good measure: Lightning has only 1 might. I dunno about you, but I don't like relying on strategies that require setup, luck, AND even then only work once because the conditions for them to work no longer apply after the one shot.

My point about trade equipping is that it's a piss weak argument because it's inconvenient as hell to have to constantly do. I say, for good measure, having to constantly trade equip to avoid the downsides of weapons with severe ones, like braves, is a massive inconvenience.

And yet I admit that not everyone has DLC, because that's the fair thing to do. If I assume everyone plays as I do, I would say you're guilty of assuming everyone would think the same way you think, so there. You might be okay with wasting a unit slot AND a Master Seal on Nyx, who is often seen as a terrible unit, to make Niles passable with the Shining Bow, but I deem that too much of a price to pay for the sake of someone who I don't see as all that amazing. Especially since this is Conquest, one of the most unforgiving FE games ever, we're talking about. Going back to Haitaka, I consider him aggravating enough to deal with thanks to most units only being able to engage him once without dying. Not to mention hitting him being like trying to hit a FE6 boss. I dunno about you, but if Niles missed the fatal hit and someone died because of it, it'd be all I could do to not throw my 3DS at a wall or something. And I'd say I have different priorities than others; look where I ranked Rally Magic in the context of Fates in comparison to in the context of Awakening. Between most mages in Fates being lackluster and the likes of the Shining Bow needing very specific users to really shine, is it any wonder that I consider Rally Magic the least useful Rally outright in Fates? It doesn't help that it's practically inaccessible in Conquest outside of Izana, who is rather mediocre and comes really late. That's a stark contrast to Awakening, where tomes were the best weapon type.

Then how come you mentioned it? Not that I disagree with you on Rally Resistance being bad, but while I often see a lot of hype for Wyvern Elise, I dismiss it as a terribad and half-assed gimmick since axes are inaccurate, and Elise's skill and strength both suck. That being said, imo, Elise's personal skill alone is enough for me to consider her a must deploy unit.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Aut]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Then why'd you bring it up? And regarding Lightning on Generals, (1) Lightning has a laughable 1 might, and (2) most Generals use lances. When I can't get a follow-up, I'd feel I'd best make my one hit count. While Lightning gets around Wary Fighter, I would need both hits to connect for it to come out better than anything else - which I'm not willing to assume with no true hit, and against a class that often has WTA over tomes. Anyway, looking at the stats, the non-boss Generals in chapter 18 have 42/12 HP/Res. Most, if not all the non-boss Generals have lances (I'm not sure about Lunatic, but not all of them have Wary Fighter on Hard). Leo has 20 base magic. He would need 34/35 attack (before WTD since WTD negates weapon rank bonuses; I don't remember, but there might be some B ranks among the Generals) to ORKO. I say this once more, for good measure: Lightning has only 1 might. I dunno about you, but I don't like relying on strategies that require setup, luck, AND even then only work once because the conditions for them to work no longer apply after the one shot.

My point about trade equipping is that it's a piss weak argument because it's inconvenient as hell to have to constantly do. I say, for good measure, having to constantly trade equip to avoid the downsides of weapons with severe ones, like braves, is a massive inconvenience.

And yet I admit that not everyone has DLC, because that's the fair thing to do. If I assume everyone plays as I do, I would say you're guilty of assuming everyone would think the same way you think, so there. You might be okay with wasting a unit slot AND a Master Seal on Nyx, who is often seen as a terrible unit, to make Niles passable with the Shining Bow, but I deem that too much of a price to pay for the sake of someone who I don't see as all that amazing. Especially since this is Conquest, one of the most unforgiving FE games ever, we're talking about. Going back to Haitaka, I consider him aggravating enough to deal with thanks to most units only being able to engage him once without dying. Not to mention hitting him being like trying to hit a FE6 boss. I dunno about you, but if Niles missed the fatal hit and someone died because of it, it'd be all I could do to not throw my 3DS at a wall or something. And I'd say I have different priorities than others; look where I ranked Rally Magic in the context of Fates in camparison to in the context of Awakening. Between most mages in Fates being lackluster and the likes of the Shining Bow needing very specific users to really shine, is it any wonder that I consider Rally Magic the least useful Rally outright in Fates? It doesn't help that it's practically inaccessible in Conquest outside of Izana, who is rather mediocre and comes really late. That's a stark contrast to Awakening, where tomes were the best weapon type.

Then how come you mentioned it? Not that I disagree with you on Rally Resistance being bad, but while I often see a lot of hype for Wyvern Elise, I dismiss it as a terribad and half-assed gimmick since axes are inaccurate, and Elise's skill and strength both suck. That being said, imo, Elise's personal skill alone is enough for me to consider her a must deploy unit.

The reason I brought it up was because it’s a valid point in favor of brave weapons, but I find that it doesn’t really matter unless you’re playing through the level legit. 

Mind you, on Leo, there are strategies that allow Leo to consistently get very big boosts to magic, to the point that he can reasonably 2HKO the enemies. I know you don’t like it, but Sorcerer Nyx gives 6 Magic on C-rank. That alone gets him to 29, and let’s not forget tonics, easy 31 attack right there. All it costs is a master seal, which I personally have never had trouble having enough of. From there, most cominations of being next to Camilla/Elise, magic level ups, Generals being weakened in any way (I.E. savage blow), or one of the 5 spirit dusts you get throughout the game will work. Also, if you’re using Lightning right you can go right on up to those generals and get that nice skill called heart seeker. And it doesn’t need to work more than once, after all, it’s pretty easy to set those generals up in a nice little formation so that they can all get Attack Stanced.

There’s a difference between how much thought something takes and how hard it is. Trade swapping might take a bit of thought, but it’s not exactly hard to do. It’s not like it costs money, or takes a significant amount of investment. Just because trade swapping is a higher level strategy doesn’t mean it can be dismissed as too hard.

I didn’t say that Nyx needs to be trained or anything, or that Niles has to use the shining bow, I was responding to your claim that Niles’s magic offense was bad by pointing out a (tbh quite easy) setup that allows Niles magic offense to be good, I.E. killing most enemies. Not that it really matters, since the best thing about him IMO is utility, and I find that his offensively weaker class (BK) allows more utility. Anyways, Haitaka is a pretty easy capture TBH, with Niles having a mid 80’s (IIRC) percent chance to hit if there is a dark mage next to Haitaka and (with a good setup) four shots to try and kill him. It’s quite a high success rate. I think you’re exaggerating a bit on his evasiveness.

More importantly, your explanations for not thinking rally strength and speed are good are utter nonsense. It’s super easy to capture a pegasus knight/rallyman, and getting a pegasus knight to rally speed isn’t exactly hard. I’d know, I did it, it was a lot of spamming heal but in the end I found it was worth it. And rally strength merely requires training Arthur or Charlotte, which isn’t that hard to do. And I certaintly think Rally magic is better than you give it credit for. I don’t care who it’s attached to, if it helps magic units hit ORKO’s it would otherwise by hard to get, it’s certaintly better than freaking rally luck. 

I brought it up because I felt I should address all of your points. I haven’t tried wyvern Elise, so I can’t say for sure how good or bad she is, but Elise’s personal skill isn’t really that good, since (at least in her base class) it’s hard to position her in ways that allow your units to make use of it.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

So I have to ignore the stuff that's actually crucial for victory (like the staff shop) and instead prioritize the unimportant stuff for upgrades? *slow clap* Talk about digging yourself deeper, because that's what you just did. Also, the chance of getting a gem is rather small considering that there's much more of a chance that you get something else. Anyway, I generally think a slightly more powerful special weapon (any weapon with limits to how much you can get) is not worth having less of it to go around. And even just looking at the stuff I can get infinites of, it'd get really pricey really quickly, which means you'd need DLC to not have it be a massive drain on your money, especially in Revelation, and I know better than to assume everyone has DLC, because that just is untrue. Btw, I'm not sure 12 hand axes is feasible without DLC unless you married Arthur off, at least not on Conquest. (There are 10 hand axes in the level 3 shop, and Arthur comes with one on Conquest; on Revelation, Camilla and Scarlet both have one)

Yes, I did marry Arthur off, Percy is my dedicated Rally Bot (I skill buy from my other files, sue me). And you don't need to ignore the staff shop or anything else, you just need to prioritize arena and ore mining if you actually want the stuff. That is to say upgrade them before you upgrade other things. Now if you personally don't want to do that because you want access to seals and stat boosters earlier, then that's absolutely fine, it's how you play the game. But saying forging is bad because you don't actually focus on it is like saying Deen is a bad unit (from like a game design standpoint, not a tier list standpoint) because you prefer Sonia. Of course if you ignore forging you're not going to get anything out of it. But if you want to do it, then it is absolutely viable, at least the gems are not a big limitation (at a certain point in the game I actually start ignoring the ore mine because I just have so damn many, it's not worth the time to walk over there and pick up another one), weapon limits are. And even then, there's still a lot you can forge because it's not like the game gives you no weapons. I personally, focus on forging for how I play the game, but as I said before, if someone only forges half as much as I do and promotes the Staff Shop before the mine, then it'd still be a more than viable feature in the game. I have a feeling you've dismissed the forging system entirely and judged it without actually trying to do anything with it just because you struggled to find some gems in the early game, in a similar way to how you've judged Thracia has an unbalanced cast despite never actually playing it.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Aut said:

The reason I brought it up was because it’s a valid point in favor of brave weapons, but I find that it doesn’t really matter unless you’re playing through the level legit. 

Mind you, on Leo, there are strategies that allow Leo to consistently get very big boosts to magic, to the point that he can reasonably 2HKO the enemies. I know you don’t like it, but Sorcerer Nyx gives 6 Magic on C-rank. That alone gets him to 29, and let’s not forget tonics, easy 31 attack right there. All it costs is a master seal, which I personally have never had trouble having enough of. From there, most cominations of being next to Camilla/Elise, magic level ups, Generals being weakened in any way (I.E. savage blow), or one of the 5 spirit dusts you get throughout the game will work. Also, if you’re using Lightning right you can go right on up to those generals and get that nice skill called heart seeker. And it doesn’t need to work more than once, after all, it’s pretty easy to set those generals up in a nice little formation so that they can all get Attack Stanced.

There’s a difference between how much thought something takes and how hard it is. Trade swapping might take a bit of thought, but it’s not exactly hard to do. It’s not like it costs money, or takes a significant amount of investment. Just because trade swapping is a higher level strategy doesn’t mean it can be dismissed as too hard.

I didn’t say that Nyx needs to be trained or anything, or that Niles has to use the shining bow, I was responding to your claim that Niles’s magic offense was bad by pointing out a (tbh quite easy) setup that allows Niles magic offense to be good, I.E. killing most enemies. Not that it really matters, since the best thing about him IMO is utility, and I find that his offensively weaker class (BK) allows more utility. Anyways, Haitaka is a pretty easy capture TBH, with Niles having a mid 80’s (IIRC) percent chance to hit if there is a dark mage next to Haitaka and (with a good setup) four shots to try and kill him. It’s quite a high success rate. I think you’re exaggerating a bit on his evasiveness.

More importantly, your explanations for not thinking rally strength and speed are good are utter nonsense. It’s super easy to capture a pegasus knight/rallyman, and getting a pegasus knight to rally speed isn’t exactly hard. I’d know, I did it, it was a lot of spamming heal but in the end I found it was worth it. And rally strength merely requires training Arthur or Charlotte, which isn’t that hard to do. And I certaintly think Rally magic is better than you give it credit for. I don’t care who it’s attached to, if it helps magic units hit ORKO’s it would otherwise by hard to get, it’s certaintly better than freaking rally luck. 

I brought it up because I felt I should address all of your points. I haven’t tried wyvern Elise, so I can’t say for sure how good or bad she is, but Elise’s personal skill isn’t really that good, since (at least in her base class) it’s hard to position her in ways that allow your units to make use of it.

Well, as I see it, we're using inaccurate weapons against the most dodgy classes in the game. I trust I don't have to point out the problem... with said problem being why I shot the idea down in the first place.

Well, I used base Leo because level ups are an unpredictable beast. And there's still the matter of unlucky misses that suddenly mean you're in a very bad position.

I'm not saying it's hard. I'm saying it's a huge inconvenience, in large part because I could end up exposing someone I don't want getting attacked to danger. This is especially true if Azura has already used her turn - after all, there's no canto, and only 4 rescue staff uses.

Sure, that looks good... until you remember that there's no true hit, and that one of the dark mages straight up gets one-shotted. And, most of all, that Fates is Murphy's Law: The Game. If I saw 2 hits at 92 hit whiff IN A ROW, you really think I'm going to trust an 80 to go my way in a situation where I stand to lose someone if it doesn't???

You mean the same rallies I happened to rank rather high despite that? Anyway, Charlotte and Arthur are even worse than Nyx. I would go so far as to say they're the absolute bottom of the barrel as far as Nohrian units go. Arthur has nonexistent luck, and a trash tier personal skill that renders him a massive liability, in addition to suspect accuracy. That's an automatic "nope" in terms of unit viability. Charlotte couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it, which it does because she takes hits like a chump. That, too, is an automatic "nope" in terms of unit viability. And I have to raise these scrubs in a class that's innately vulnerable to critical hits, in a game where eating a crit means "stick a fork in em, coz they're done"? Yeah, no. That ain't happenin'. I'd rather just buy Rally Strength than bother with one of those third-rate losers. And that's saying something, since I tend to not factor in skill buying. As far as Rally Magic is concerned, it's hindered by most of your units being physical, as well as tomes not being nearly as good a weapon type as they were in Awakening.

Okay then. While I happen to agree with your point that it might be hard to position her in ways that allow your units to make use of it, I still think the skill's effects speak for themselves. About the only personal that could rival it is Camilla's, as I see it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia