Grima on retrospect

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, saisymbolic said:

I mean, it could be canon. It could not be. Or maybe it's both at the same time.

We can also say Xander in tight swimming trunks smacking people with a giant Lilith Floatie, Leo using a tome that spits tomatoes at people's faces and Chrom crushing naughty heroes' heads with a Sack-o'-Gifts is canon, too.

and i wouldn't necessarily be against any of those

1

Pft! 

Well, in this case, I mean, most of the quotes that Heroes has characters say are references to actual quotes that they give in the game. Grima though has quotes that don't match his game counterpart, or rather, some of them don't. 

I think with Echoes showing Grima's backstory, in that he is an experiment created by a mad alchemist named Forneus, they are depicting that Grima has existed even before the time of the First Exalt, to the time of Marth and Alm. And the Valentian Accordion reveals that Grima existed even before that, in that he existed before Tiki even did.

So Heroes is trying to show that Grima may have forged an opinion on humanity from the thousands of years he has existed. Possibly had lived among humans and saw how terrible they really were. 

He was made by humans. He was created by humans, but he is a god. And as he says, his ugly form is just a reflection of humanity's own evil. 

[Etrurian emperor]

I agree that Grima is very intimidating but I find that more a mark against him rather than in favor of him. In the end this intimidating aura is just wasted when you put it on a subpar villain who didn't have anything going for him in his debut game. It raises expectations that a generic evil dragon can't meet without at least bringing something to the table. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I agree that Grima is very intimidating but I find that more a mark against him rather than in favor of him. In the end this intimidating aura is just wasted when you put it on a subpar villain who didn't have anything going for him in his debut game. It raises expectations that a generic evil dragon can't meet without at least bringing something to the table. 

Not that there were that many great dragon bosses in general. 

• Medeus had great reasons for hating on humans, but he has such boring roles in the story, in that he is confined to his castle in Shadow Dragon, maybe coming out one time to take Camus in, and then is just reviving by the end of New Mystery.
• Loptous has nothing going for him and is by far the pettiest dragon boss.
• Jahn is a dragon that goes on to say that he's got no emotions and every dragon has no emotions. Despite how Fae and Idunn, and Aenir seemed to have emotions. Although maybe that's just that Divine Dragons of FE6 and Aenir are the exceptions. 
• Idunn sadly has no personality, but that's to be expected as she had her soul destroyed.
• The FE7 Dragon boss is just weird as it didn't talk. Some claim it was a degenerated dragon, and who knows. One thing's for sure, it was way stronger than the FE6 dragons, given that multiple legendaries couldn't kill it.
• No dragon boss in FE8.
• Ashnard was riding a dragon, I guess?
• Dheginsea was just a stubborn guy that had reasons, but sort of caused a lot of problems for not even trying to act. 

So yeah, FE dragons bosses don't really have the strongest track record.

[Etrurian emperor]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Not that there were that many great dragon bosses in general. 

• Medeus had great reasons for hating on humans, but he has such boring roles in the story, in that he is confined to his castle in Shadow Dragon, maybe coming out one time to take Camus in, and then is just reviving by the end of New Mystery.
• Loptous has nothing going for him and is by far the pettiest dragon boss.
• Jahn is a dragon that goes on to say that he's got no emotions and every dragon has no emotions. Despite how Fae and Idunn, and Aenir seemed to have emotions. Although maybe that's just that Divine Dragons of FE6 and Aenir are the exceptions. 
• Idunn sadly has no personality, but that's to be expected as she had her soul destroyed.
• The FE7 Dragon boss is just weird as it didn't talk. Some claim it was a degenerated dragon, and who knows. One thing's for sure, it was way stronger than the FE6 dragons, given that multiple legendaries couldn't kill it.
• No dragon boss in FE8.
• Ashnard was riding a dragon, I guess?
• Dheginsea was just a stubborn guy that had reasons, but sort of caused a lot of problems for not even trying to act. 

So yeah, FE dragons bosses don't really have the strongest track record.

I don't really think that characters like Idunn and the generic fire dragon are peers of Grima. I think his peers are more the likes of Nergal and Zephiel. Grima isn't just there to be the boss at the end like the fire dragon or Idunn who's guided by Zephiel. Grima appears several times throughout the story and his presence is felt from the midpoint onwards so I'll hold him to the standards of the likes of Ashnard, Nergal or Lyon. 

The expectations Grima raises are also pretty unique. Fortemiss might be the demon king and Loptyr might have dominated Jugdral but Grima is supposed to be far above every previous villain in terms of scale. As such I don't think it would have been too much to ask if his personality was a step up too. 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't really think that characters like Idunn and the generic fire dragon are peers of Grima. I think his peers are more the likes of Nergal and Zephiel. Grima isn't just there to be the boss at the end like the fire dragon or Idunn who's guided by Zephiel. Grima appears several times throughout the story and his presence is felt from the midpoint onwards so I'll hold him to the standards of the likes of Ashnard, Nergal or Lyon. 

The expectations Grima raises are also pretty unique. Fortemiss might be the demon king and Loptyr might have dominated Jugdral but Grima is supposed to be far above every previous villain in terms of scale. As such I don't think it would have been too much to ask if his personality was a step up too. 

You are correct. The issue is that I feel Awakening was structured to not be too thought-provoking or question your morals and such. Yeah, it'd make for a better story, but this was to be the last game. They likely wanted you to be sure that you were doing the right thing, or that you don't need to sympathize with the enemies. They left things there that allows for sympathy, but they don't dwell on it too long.

If a remake happens int he distant future, I hope they take the chance to really expand the game and show what it really can be like.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I am annoyed you did not include Radiant Historia there. XP

Play it.

Ah, a point of happy agreement, this I like! 

I did play it, cleared the original DS version twice.

I'm thinking I'll actually change my avi to a pic of Lippti and Teo, or just Teo if I can't get both to fit in a pic, whenever I finally go in all the way. Since I've picked Pandur for my FEH ID name, the gun they give Stocke at the end of the conut sidequest.

 

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I really need to get back to my Tales of series games. So many Tales games that I have not yet played.

Tales of Xillia I felt was good. Definitely rushed towards the end, a little lacking on endgame content too, but I enjoyed it.

One of the more interesting things is the main "heroine", Milla Maxwell. Now if the name "Maxwell" in Tales rings a bell, it is probably because you're thinking of the summon spirit. And this is what Milla is. The great Lord of Spirits Maxwell, having descended from the spirit realm by taking a human form, in order to fight evil. So although being in the human form limits them, you are playing as a deity, who certainly doesn't act human. Milla does make the point that although they look female and are addressed with feminine words (and Jude has a crush on her), they are technically as a spirit genderless and sexless. For me, it was quite an interesting concept I enjoyed.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ah, a point of happy agreement, this I like! 

I did play it, cleared the original DS version twice.

I'm thinking I'll actually change my avi to a pic of Lippti and Teo, or just Teo if I can't get both to fit in a pic, whenever I finally go in all the way. Since I've picked Pandur for my FEH ID name, the gun they give Stocke at the end of the conut sidequest.

2

Ah, it is just amazing. Possibly the best time travel game I ever played. I replayed the original DS version several times. And hearing the remake, I went and bought it. So good. And the voice acting, my god!

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tales of Xillia I felt was good. Definitely rushed towards the end, a little lacking on endgame content too, but I enjoyed it.

One of the more interesting things is the main "heroine", Milla Maxwell. Now if the name "Maxwell" in Tales rings a bell, it is probably because you're thinking of the summon spirit. And this is what Milla is. The great Lord of Spirits Maxwell, having descended from the spirit realm by taking a human form, in order to fight evil. So although being in the human form limits them, you are playing as a deity, who certainly doesn't act human. Milla does make the point that although they look female and are addressed with feminine words (and Jude has a crush on her), they are technically as a spirit genderless and sexless. For me, it was quite an interesting concept I enjoyed.

My very first Tales of game was Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World. Since then, I have managed to play to completion Tales of the Abyss, Tales of Eternia, and Tales of Phantasia. I have Tales of Symphonia, and I have played Tales of Innocence, but the latter one always froze in my rom, so I never finished it. :/

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except that's just it. Loptous doesn't possess anyone. It's just his resentment and anger that corrupts others. There's no true possession (except for maybe when Julius is dying) in that Julius is just himself, but just has a warped personality that is influenced by Loptous. That's what the blood pact is in the end. It's the same with Lewyn. It's Lewyn, but his personality has become warped because of Forseti's will and personality. That's also why Julius has this possessive love towards Ishtar that makes him have jealousy. It's Julius' own feelings that have become warped by Loptous.

But Loptous himself has no real personality other than the fact he hates humans just cause they exist. He wanted to make humans suffer just because they existed. 

And no, we didn't get ANY proper backstory of Loptous. We only learned what he is, but even the interview with Kaga told us absolutely nothing anything personal about Loptous. 

If you view the situation as there's no possession, then you can't really call Loptous a bad character, as that logically means he never actually appeared in the game and we never actually got to see his character outside of a death quote. It's like calling Anri a bad character.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If you view the situation as there's no possession, then you can't really call Loptous a bad character, as that logically means he never actually appeared in the game and we never actually got to see his character outside of a death quote. It's like calling Anri a bad character.

No. There's a difference between Anri and Loptous. Anri never appears. He only sets up a plot point. 

Loptous though, though it's not full possession, it's his will, his power, and his empire that was all done under his direction. He's set up as this terrifying person and entity, this dark god that is feared and admired, only to end up revealing that he's a dragon that hates humans just cause they exist. That's it. 

Kaga basically explained that Loptous only went to Jugdral to make humans suffer beyond the dragon war. Except, unlike Medeus, who hated humans for the persecution, Loptous hated humans just because he's salty about humans having to exist that when the dragons face extinction, the humans would inherit the land. 

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And even Arvis is not that great of a villain considering how stupid he ended up being in not realizing how he got played. If he was able to think even a little, he'd have realized that hooking up with Deirdre was a terrible idea the moment that he canonically found out that she was his sister after the Battle of Belhalla. 

You got into a pretty big convo there that I've only just skimmed (because it seems far too long and repetitive to fully read), so forgive me if this has already been explained to you, but Alvis only found out Deirdre was his sister after Julius and Julia were born.

5 hours ago, saisymbolic said:

I mean, it could be canon. It could not be. Or maybe it's both at the same time?

We can also say Xander in tight swimming trunks smacking people with a giant Lilith Floatie, Leo using a tome that spits tomatoes at people's faces and Chrom crushing naughty heroes' heads with a Sack-o'-Gifts is canon, too.

and i wouldn't necessarily be against any of those

Yeah, that was one aspect I really liked about Grima. Overall, I really liked the Grimleal aesthetic, to be honest.

Well swimsuit Xander does actually appear in Fates DLC, so that's not really Hero dependent to question. Seems to be as equally canon as Future Past, Heirs of Fates, Death's Embrace or any other DLC episode.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No. There's a difference between Anri and Loptous. Anri never appears. He only sets up a plot point. 

Loptous though, though it's not full possession, it's his will, his power, and his empire that was all done under his direction. He's set up as this terrifying person and entity, this dark god that is feared and admired, only to end up revealing that he's a dragon that hates humans just cause they exist. That's it. 

Kaga basically explained that Loptous only went to Jugdral to make humans suffer beyond the dragon war. Except, unlike Medeus, who hated humans for the persecution, Loptous hated humans just because he's salty about humans having to exist that when the dragons face extinction, the humans would inherit the land. 

That's still just how a backstory character influences the plot. It's completely identical to Anri (with the exception of Julius' death quote). Either you have to accept we don't see Loptyr directly in the game (again, outside of that one line), in which case you can make no judgement on him as an actual character, or you have to accept we do see his character in the game and thus everything that Julius does can be attributed at least in part to the character of Loptyr. The two ideas can't be simultaneously true. Loptyr is either a character, or he isn't. Saying he's a bad character because he isn't a character doesn't make sense.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

• Jahn is a dragon that goes on to say that he's got no emotions and every dragon has no emotions. Despite how Fae and Idunn, and Aenir seemed to have emotions. Although maybe that's just that Divine Dragons of FE6 and Aenir are the exceptions. 

I think you've said this somewhere else recently. Jahn never claims that dragons don't have emotions, that's Zephiel. He only claims that certain emotions are pointless. The relevant quotes being:

Quote

"Right. And that Divine Dragon, Idoun, was to become the Dark Dragon. However, she felt hesitation in letting the Divine Dragons and us other Dragons going on to bad terms. Hesitation...such nonsense is for humans only. We Dragons have no need for it."

Quote

"Hate? Only humans have such ridiculous emotions. We battled to maintain our species, and we lost. That is all."

Quote

And then after seeing her as the little girl Idoun, he must have felt pity for her. It is another emotion that we Dragons cannot comprehend."

So to me that paints a pretty clear picture that the dragons were harsh and utilitarian, but not emotionless. It's very specific emotions that go against pragmatism, hesitation, hatred and pity. Everything suggests they still feel and value things like happiness, sadness and even anger. He even specifically refers to himself as having hope.

Quote

I waited for the resurrection of the Dark Dragon that would bring hope to us Dragons again.

In fact, Jahn clearly makes a distinction between himself and Idoun/War Dragons by saying they have no heart.

Quote

"She changed into the Dark Dragon and fought back, just like the War Dragons who have no heart."

Not mind, or consciousness or intelligence, but heart. War Dragons and Idoun are completely emotionless, while Elibe Dragons just have a more Blue and Orange morality system where they value things that are practical, but aren't completely lacking in emotion. Of course I should note this is all coming from the common fan translation, which might be adding or lacking a certain amount of nuance. Regardless, Yahn never claims that dragons have no emotions period and makes a clear distinction between himself and the completely emotionless war dragons.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

You got into a pretty big convo there that I've only just skimmed (because it seems far too long and repetitive to fully read), so forgive me if this has already been explained to you, but Alvis only found out Deirdre was his sister after Julius and Julia were born.

 

Nope. Before. Kaga himself confirmed it in the interview:

Quote

Q: Did Alvis know that Diadora was his half-sister?

A: Not in the beginning. Within the palace, there were few people who could tell him about Prince Kurth and Cigyun’s relationship, and he was only 7 years old when his father committed suicide, so he would likely have been uninterested in the palace gossip that was occurring during that time. Afterwards, his beloved mother Cigyun disappeared, but because of his powerful trust in his mother he wasn’t disturbed by the rumours. Alvis always held the belief that his mother would return for him. He became the ruler of the Velthomer family in his youth and his influence frightened the nobles. Often he would quarrel with them after they disrespected his mother (even though they spoke the truth) and in extreme cases, he even killed people.

Although he had no interest at all in girls, when he first saw Diadora he fell in love at first sight, which may have been influenced by his mother complex. After marrying Diadora, he noticed that Diadora often seemed to be another person, and was afraid that one day she would leave his side like his mother did. Gripped by this thought, he lived his days with great unease (so we can see how much he loved Diadora…) and heard rumours that “Sigurd’s wife had gone missing”, leading him to carefully watch Sigurd. So during Chapter 5, he progressed with his plan (to let Diadora meet Sigurd), which was caused by his inability to let go his endless worry. He obviously shouldn’t have checked, but he was unable to control himself; that was the extent of Alvis’s sorrow. Following that, he investigated Diadora’s past, traveling to the Spirit Forest, and found out that she was Cigyun’s daughter.

However, after discovering his wife was in fact his sister, his feelings still hadn’t changed. He simply tried his best to not let Diadora find out the truth. The sorrow that Diadora would feel after discovering the truth was the most unbearable thing for him… In the end, although Diadora never recovered her memory, she did discover that Sigurd was her husband, but she didn’t hate Alvis at all. When her own son Julius was about to kill her, she didn’t show any resistance, which is due to her subconsciously trying to repent for her crime. Regarding Diadora’s character, there are many ways one could judge her, but as for this issue, it is still too early to draw a conclusion.

6

This shows that Arvis discovered his relation to Deirdre before Julius and Julia were even conceived. He knew, and he knew that Manfroy likely had a hand in Deirdre appearing before him, knew that she was Sigurd's wife, and knew that Manfroy wanted to bring back the Loptous Empire. Not only that, but even a villager knew that if two minor bloods got together, the minor blood might become a major blood, then even Arvis would have to know this kind of information. The practice for such things is even forbidden. 

So Arvis knew all this, yet he gets treated like he was a victim of fate. He wasn't. He chose to stay with Deirdre, he chose to have children with her, and he basically chose to let the risk of creating the anti-Christ happen. 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well swimsuit Xander does actually appear in Fates DLC, so that's not really Hero dependent to question. Seems to be as equally canon as Future Past, Heirs of Fates, Death's Embrace or any other DLC episode.

1

Future Past and the Scramble DLC holds a great amount of canonicity in Awakening though, since Odin, Laslow, and Selena reference the latter ones in regards to Summer and Hot Spring Scramble, and Morgan is heavily implied to be from the Future Past DLC.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's still just how a backstory character influences the plot. It's completely identical to Anri (with the exception of Julius' death quote). Either you have to accept we don't see Loptyr directly in the game (again, outside of that one line), in which case you can make no judgement on him as an actual character, or you have to accept we do see his character in the game and thus everything that Julius does can be attributed at least in part to the character of Loptyr. The two ideas can't be simultaneously true. Loptyr is either a character, or he isn't. Saying he's a bad character because he isn't a character doesn't make sense.

He became a bad character the moment that his motivation for all of this was so petty. Why did he make a blood pact and escape to Jugdral? Because he wanted to make humans suffer. And ironically, this move is arguably even MORE hypocritical of him because, in my eyes, he's made his spirit become DEPENDENT on humans. He cannot live without humans. His spirit now exists in the blood of the humans, where he must mate with humans to pass on the blood, and if he is killed from his vessel, he is forever trapped in limbo until someone gets a Major blood and his tome together. 

Unlike the Manakete form, where you can still restore your dragon form, the blood pact makes it impossible to restore that. You are forever confined to a human vessel.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think you've said this somewhere else recently. Jahn never claims that dragons don't have emotions, that's Zephiel. He only claims that certain emotions are pointless. The relevant quotes being:

So to me that paints a pretty clear picture that the dragons were harsh and utilitarian, but not emotionless. It's very specific emotions that go against pragmatism, hesitation, hatred and pity. Everything suggests they still feel and value things like happiness, sadness and even anger. He even specifically refers to himself as having hope.

In fact, Jahn clearly makes a distinction between himself and Idoun/War Dragons by saying they have no heart.

Not mind, or consciousness or intelligence, but heart. War Dragons and Idoun are completely emotionless, while Elibe Dragons just have a more Blue and Orange morality system where they value things that are practical, but aren't completely lacking in emotion. Of course I should note this is all coming from the common fan translation, which might be adding or lacking a certain amount of nuance. Regardless, Yahn never claims that dragons have no emotions period and makes a clear distinction between himself and the completely emotionless war dragons.

Fair point. But the thing is that Idunn and Fae clearly experienced emotions that Jahn claims dragons cannot comprehend. The emotions dragons feel are basically at a bare minimum. So would that make Divine Dragons of Elibe the unique exceptions? They were the only ones that took a different stance in the war. 

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nope. Before. Kaga himself confirmed it in the interview:

This shows that Arvis discovered his relation to Deirdre before Julius and Julia were even conceived. He knew, and he knew that Manfroy likely had a hand in Deirdre appearing before him, knew that she was Sigurd's wife, and knew that Manfroy wanted to bring back the Loptous Empire. Not only that, but even a villager knew that if two minor bloods got together, the minor blood might become a major blood, then even Arvis would have to know this kind of information. The practice for such things is even forbidden. 

You're extrapolating something that doesn't exist there. The quote specifically identifies Alvis as discovering the truth post chapter five. True given Julius' appearant age, he was probably born a few years after Chapter 5, but saying post chapter five does not mean pre Satan's conception. We also get this line from the actual game.

Alvis:
“No… I’ve been such a fool. Manfroy’s been using me all along. But by the time I realised what was going on, it was too late. Yurius is the reincarnation of the Dark Lord Loputousu. He murdered my beloved Diadora and had the same fate in store for you…”

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He became a bad character the moment that his motivation for all of this was so petty. Why did he make a blood pact and escape to Jugdral? Because he wanted to make humans suffer. And ironically, this move is arguably even MORE hypocritical of him because, in my eyes, he's made his spirit become DEPENDENT on humans. He cannot live without humans. His spirit now exists in the blood of the humans, where he must mate with humans to pass on the blood, and if he is killed from his vessel, he is forever trapped in limbo until someone gets a Major blood and his tome together. 

You seem to have changed your stance to the fact that we do get to see Loptyr's actual character in game and thus can judge him as a character, which fair enough, if you don't like him I can't argue with you, that's your opinion. But those are exactly the traits that make me like him.

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Fair point. But the thing is that Idunn and Fae clearly experienced emotions that Jahn claims dragons cannot comprehend. The emotions dragons feel are basically at a bare minimum. So would that make Divine Dragons of Elibe the unique exceptions? They were the only ones that took a different stance in the war. 

I wouldn't say they're at a bare minimum, just different.  I don't think it's so much Divine Dragons are the exception, and more a difference in priorities between the military class and the hippies, to put things crassly. It could easily be a cultural thing too (given Arcadia, the Dragon's who went beyond the gate and the Dragon Temple, everything points to the idea that the dragons were not one united culture). Maybe Fire Dragons in particularly prided themselves on being utilitarian while Divine Dragons preferred to be egalitarian. In either case, I think it's clear that Yahn can feel emotions. He's baffled by Hartmut's decision, but he's not so divorced from the concept of feelings that he can't identify what emotion the hero was working upon when he chose to spare Idoun (and aside from that hope reference above, he does seem to show some resentment (which isn't the same thing as hatred) towards humanity when he discovered they blamed the Ending Winter entirely on the dragons).

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're extrapolating something that doesn't exist there. The quote specifically identifies Alvis as discovering the truth post chapter five. True given Julius' appearant age, he was probably born a few years after Chapter 5, but saying post chapter five does not mean pre Satan's conception. We also get this line from the actual game.

Alvis:
“No… I’ve been such a fool. Manfroy’s been using me all along. But by the time I realised what was going on, it was too late. Yurius is the reincarnation of the Dark Lord Loputousu. He murdered my beloved Diadora and had the same fate in store for you…”

Pay closer attention to what Kaga said. In particular, despite knowing that Deirdre was his sister, he loved her too much because of his mother complex. If he really thought about it, he'd have known. But he didn't think about it. That's why by the time it did click, it was too late. For all of Arvis' cunning and knowledge, and how he investigated Deirdre's origins because of how the reaction of showing Deirdre to Sigurd, he would be the time to investigate. But he was unable or unwilling to think on the dangers of being with her. 

Hence why I say that Arvis is rather stupid. Both him and Manfroy ended up screwing themselves over badly.

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You seem to have changed your stance to the fact that we do get to see Loptyr's actual character in game and thus can judge him as a character, which fair enough, if you don't like him I can't argue with you, that's your opinion. But those are exactly the traits that make me like him.

2

My stance never actually changed. Loptous is a shitty villain. His motivations are about as one-note as you get and he's extremely petty. He hates humans because they simply exist, and even moreso when they have to be the dominating species because dragons face extinction. 

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say they're at a bare minimum, just different.  I don't think it's so much Divine Dragons are the exception, and more a difference in priorities between the military class and the hippies, to put things crassly. It could easily be a cultural thing too (given Arcadia, the Dragon's who went beyond the gate and the Dragon Temple, everything points to the idea that the dragons were not one united culture). Maybe Fire Dragons in particularly prided themselves on being utilitarian while Divine Dragons preferred to be egalitarian. In either case, I think it's clear that Yahn can feel emotions. He's baffled by Hartmut's decision, but he's not so divorced from the concept of feelings that he can't identify what emotion the hero was working upon when he chose to spare Idoun (and aside from that hope reference above, he does seem to show some resentment (which isn't the same thing as hatred) towards humanity when he discovered they blamed the Ending Winter entirely on the dragons).

That's a thing that makes me wonder. They don't expand on too much about how dragons are. With how Jahn describes dragons, and how Idunn apparently acted, how Fae acts, and so on, it's hard to understand which is the truth. Jahn speaks for dragons as if all dragons should act like he says they do, but every other dragon we know or see act differently. However, Jahn is the one that existed during the time of the Scouring, so he would have more rich knowledge on how dragons are.

And if they have such a distance of emotions, is that possibly what triggered the Scouring in the first place?

Like, have dragons done things that are so bad to the humans that dragons just shrug it off? Before I always thought that humans were being douches to the dragons since humans started the war, but it's possible that the humans had reason to start the war.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pay closer attention to what Kaga said. In particular, despite knowing that Deirdre was his sister, he loved her too much because of his mother complex. If he really thought about it, he'd have known. But he didn't think about it. That's why by the time it did click, it was too late. For all of Arvis' cunning and knowledge, and how he investigated Deirdre's origins because of how the reaction of showing Deirdre to Sigurd, he would be the time to investigate. But he was unable or unwilling to think on the dangers of being with her. 

Hence why I say that Arvis is rather stupid. Both him and Manfroy ended up screwing themselves over badly.

In no way does that suggest Alvis conceived a child with her after discovering the truth. It just means he continued to love her after discovering she was his sister. He very explicitly says in game that by the time he found out it was too late. The order of events are clearly Get Married -> Kill Sigurd -> Obsess over her relationship with Sigurd -> Have babies -> Continue to obsess over her relationship with Sigurd -> Travel to the spirit forest and learn the truth -> Get widowed.

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

\My stance never actually changed. Loptous is a shitty villain. His motivations are about as one-note as you get and he's extremely petty. He hates humans because they simply exist, and even moreso when they have to be the dominating species because dragons face extinction. 

That's a thing that makes me wonder. They don't expand on too much about how dragons are. With how Jahn describes dragons, and how Idunn apparently acted, how Fae acts, and so on, it's hard to understand which is the truth. Jahn speaks for dragons as if all dragons should act like he says they do, but every other dragon we know or see act differently. However, Jahn is the one that existed during the time of the Scouring, so he would have more rich knowledge on how dragons are.

And if they have such a distance of emotions, is that possibly what triggered the Scouring in the first place?

Like, have dragons done things that are so bad to the humans that dragons just shrug it off? Before I always thought that humans were being douches to the dragons since humans started the war, but it's possible that the humans had reason to start the war.

What you initially said was this.

19 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except that's just it. Loptous doesn't possess anyone. It's just his resentment and anger that corrupts others. There's no true possession (except for maybe when Julius is dying) in that Julius is just himself, but just has a warped personality that is influenced by Loptous. That's what the blood pact is in the end. It's the same with Lewyn. It's Lewyn, but his personality has become warped because of Forseti's will and personality. That's also why Julius has this possessive love towards Ishtar that makes him have jealousy. It's Julius' own feelings that have become warped by Loptous.

But Loptous himself has no real personality other than the fact he hates humans just cause they exist. He wanted to make humans suffer just because they existed. 

And no, we didn't get ANY proper backstory of Loptous. We only learned what he is, but even the interview with Kaga told us absolutely nothing anything personal about Loptous. 

If you accept that Loptous doesn't possess anyone and that it's just his corrupting influence, then you can't criticize his character since he never shows up. We can't judge what we don't actually see. If you think Loptyr is an actual character in the game with screentime and dialogue, then sure, you can call him a shitty villain, but if you hold the stance that Julius is a completely separate entity who is only influenced by Loptous, then there's no actual Loptous present to judge. What you have then is a backstory character like Victor or Sigyun.

37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's a thing that makes me wonder. They don't expand on too much about how dragons are. With how Jahn describes dragons, and how Idunn apparently acted, how Fae acts, and so on, it's hard to understand which is the truth. Jahn speaks for dragons as if all dragons should act like he says they do, but every other dragon we know or see act differently. However, Jahn is the one that existed during the time of the Scouring, so he would have more rich knowledge on how dragons are.

And if they have such a distance of emotions, is that possibly what triggered the Scouring in the first place?

Like, have dragons done things that are so bad to the humans that dragons just shrug it off? Before I always thought that humans were being douches to the dragons since humans started the war, but it's possible that the humans had reason to start the war.

Well consider if this way, if a thousand years from now an alien meets a Nazi that was in suspended animation, who starts spouting Social Darwinism and Ugenics, should the aliens assume that these are values and view points held as important by all humans? Not saying Jahn is a Nazi, as I do actually have some sympathy for the dragon's position, but his very story itself showed that the dragons were divided on what they thought was the best method to win the war (and the prequel even gives us a third faction who ran away to another world), so he doesn't speak for all dragons, even if he maybe thinks he should.

Neither Loptyr or Jahn happen to be Grima though...so this conversation has gotten pretty off topic.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

In no way does that suggest Alvis conceived a child with her after discovering the truth. It just means he continued to love her after discovering she was his sister. He very explicitly says in game that by the time he found out it was too late. The order of events are clearly Get Married -> Kill Sigurd -> Obsess over her relationship with Sigurd -> Have babies -> Continue to obsess over her relationship with Sigurd -> Travel to the spirit forest and learn the truth -> Get widowed.

 

Kaga literally states that Arvis investigated Deirdre's origins following the events of the Battle of Belhalla. There was no make babies and THEN investigate. Arvis discovered it before he conceived any children.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If you accept that Loptous doesn't possess anyone and that it's just his corrupting influence, then you can't criticize his character since he never shows up. We can't judge what we don't actually see. If you think Loptyr is an actual character in the game with screentime and dialogue, then sure, you can call him a shitty villain, but if you hold the stance that Julius is a completely separate entity who is only influenced by Loptous, then there's no actual Loptous present to judge. What you have then is a backstory character like Victor or Sigyun.

 

That's in regards to what Slumber said:

20 hours ago, Slumber said:

The part that makes Loptyr interesting is everything we're told about Julius in gen 2. Throughout the whole thing, we're told that it's barely Julius anymore, and by the end, Loptyr has completely taken over. Everything we see of Julius in gen 2 of FE4 and the bits he's in of FE5 have the lingering question of "Is this Julius, or is this Loptyr?"

A dragon potentially acting in human ways like that is more interesting than what we see of Grima. When Grima is in Robin's body, he's essentially just another Validar. Once he's a dragon, he all but stops talking.

Oh, AND WE GET A PROPER BACKSTORY FOR LOPTYR PRIOR TO THE DEVS GOING "Oh, whoops, we wrote a bad character in a world that's thousands of years old and didn't explain at all why he's there."

But Loptous himself, everything learned about him, and the story of how he ended up in Jugdral, all that was stated by Kaga himself, and that basically expresses Loptous' character. In that, he is a hypocrite that would become dependent on humans for the sole purpose of exacting vengeance on the human race, that did absolutely nothing wrong. 

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well consider if this way, if a thousand years from now an alien meets a Nazi that was in suspended animation, who starts spouting Social Darwinism and Ugenics, should the aliens assume that these are values and view points held as important by all humans? Not saying Jahn is a Nazi, as I do actually have some sympathy for the dragon's position, but his very story itself showed that the dragons were divided on what they thought was the best method to win the war (and the prequel even gives us a third faction who ran away to another world), so he doesn't speak for all dragons, even if he maybe thinks he should.

2

Based on how this is said, Fire and Ice, two-thirds of the dragon tribes in Elibe, were all up for the demon dragon. Because only the Divine Dragons truly left the war. The only Ice Dragon that wasn't part of the war was Aenir.

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Neither Loptyr or Jahn happen to be Grima though...so this conversation has gotten pretty off topic.

You kind of opened that can of worms the moment you asked if Grima is better now than before. If you talk about a villain or character, people will ALWAYS make comparisons to others. 

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Kaga literally states that Arvis investigated Deirdre's origins following the events of the Battle of Belhalla. There was no make babies and THEN investigate. Arvis discovered it before he conceived any children.

Following just means after. That accounts for all the time after chapter five up until the moment Deirdre dies. And your ignoring a quote from the actual game to try and make it so Alvis willingly conceived a child through incest. Unless you think Alvis was lying to Julia to save face, it's uncontrovertible that he discovered Deirdre's origins after conceiving his children.

26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But Loptous himself, everything learned about him, and the story of how he ended up in Jugdral, all that was stated by Kaga himself, and that basically expresses Loptous' character. In that, he is a hypocrite that would become dependent on humans for the sole purpose of exacting vengeance on the human race, that did absolutely nothing wrong. 

And how does that make him a bad character? That's just a character concept. To bring things back to Grima, if we never see Grima in the game and only learn about him from heresay and director's comments, then I could say "Grima is a bad character because he's just big scary monster who wiped out the world." That's worth nothing, because execution is worth way more than concept. If you don't think Loptous was executed well based on his actions as Julius, then fair enough, but if he's just someone from the backstory then what you're criticizing is a concept, not an actual character. And if you think that's a bad concept, then fair enough, I don't think any concept is irredeemably bad or good, but a character needs to actually be in the story in some way to be a character.

26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Based on how this is said, Fire and Ice, two-thirds of the dragon tribes in Elibe, were all up for the demon dragon. Because only the Divine Dragons truly left the war. The only Ice Dragon that wasn't part of the war was Aenir.

Well that's not true at all as there's Fire Dragons beyond the dragon's gate who fled the war too. I also don't believe there's anything to indicate Arcadia was made up solely by divine dragons. In fact, looking at the text dump, there's a quote that says there are 'also' signs of divine dragons in Arcadia. Implying other types lived there too, and that Divine Dragons are just the rarest. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Aenir was the only ice dragon not involved with the war.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Following just means after. That accounts for all the time after chapter five up until the moment Deirdre dies. And your ignoring a quote from the actual game to try and make it so Alvis willingly conceived a child through incest. Unless you think Alvis was lying to Julia to save face, it's uncontrovertible that he discovered Deirdre's origins after conceiving his children.

2

He can know that Deirdre is his sister but not be willing to think about the consequences of having Loptous blood. That dialogue is him realizing that being with Deirdre resulted in Julius being the revival of Loptous. He's just got that huge mother complex that he didn't think of the consequences, which is the failing despite making such preaching about how he envisions a world of peace. For all his cunning, he didn't think about the dangers by the time the truth came out. 

And even IF Julius was already conceived by then, Arvis STILL didn't think to take any steps against the Lopto Sect. Because even if Julius and Julia were conceived by the time he discovered it, there are a full 7-8 years after they were given birth to for Arvis to have found the truth. Yet Arvis didn't make a move against Manfroy or realize it.

Meaning that he still allowed his son to ultimately be corrupted. 

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And how does that make him a bad character? That's just a character concept. To bring things back to Grima, if we never see Grima in the game and only learn about him from heresay and director's comments, then I could say "Grima is a bad character because he's just big scary monster who wiped out the world." That's worth nothing, because execution is worth way more than concept. If you don't think Loptous was executed well based on his actions as Julius, then fair enough, but if he's just someone from the backstory then what you're criticizing is a concept, not an actual character. And if you think that's a bad concept, then fair enough, I don't think any concept is irredeemably bad or good, but a character needs to actually be in the story in some way to be a character.

4

Even if Loptous isn't fully possessing Julius, many of Julius' own actions are influenced by Loptous' will. Making humans suffer, the child hunts, etc. Everything is going to how Loptous envisions it.

So why is it that Loptous, who holds such an extreme hatred towards Naga, actually have it that Julius would allow Manfroy to keep Julia alive? Julius was even going on about how the blood of Naga must be eradicated no matter what, as Naga's spirit resides through the blood of Heim. So clearly Loptous holds great hatred and fear towards Naga being awakened. And yet, despite that, Julius let himself be talked to not killing Julia outright.

Just as how this part is utterly stupid on Manfroy's part, it is just as stupid as Julius/Loptous' part. 

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well that's not true at all as there's Fire Dragons beyond the dragon's gate who fled the war too. I also don't believe there's anything to indicate Arcadia was made up solely by divine dragons. In fact, looking at the text dump, there's a quote that says there are 'also' signs of divine dragons in Arcadia. Implying other types lived there too, and that Divine Dragons are just the rarest. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Aenir was the only ice dragon not involved with the war.

In other words, there were more exceptions. However, I'm taking it based on how Jahn is describing it, where pretty much the entirety of the Divine Dragons refused the war.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He can know that Deirdre is his sister but not be willing to think about the consequences of having Loptous blood. That dialogue is him realizing that being with Deirdre resulted in Julius being the revival of Loptous. He's just got that huge mother complex that he didn't think of the consequences, which is the failing despite making such preaching about how he envisions a world of peace. For all his cunning, he didn't think about the dangers by the time the truth came out. 

And even IF Julius was already conceived by then, Arvis STILL didn't think to take any steps against the Lopto Sect. Because even if Julius and Julia were conceived by the time he discovered it, there are a full 7-8 years after they were given birth to for Arvis to have found the truth. Yet Arvis didn't make a move against Manfroy or realize it.

Meaning that he still allowed his son to ultimately be corrupted. 

Yeah, Alvis failed to stop Julius from getting possessed and Deirdre died for it. What's your point? That led directly to his personality in the Second Gen where he's riddled with guilt and regret. Alvis is a shitty person who failed to realize he was being played, but that doesn't make him a bad character. Bad person maybe, but not a bad character.

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Even if Loptous isn't fully possessing Julius, many of Julius' own actions are influenced by Loptous' will. Making humans suffer, the child hunts, etc. Everything is going to how Loptous envisions it.

So why is it that Loptous, who holds such an extreme hatred towards Naga, actually have it that Julius would allow Manfroy to keep Julia alive? Julius was even going on about how the blood of Naga must be eradicated no matter what, as Naga's spirit resides through the blood of Heim. So clearly Loptous holds great hatred and fear towards Naga being awakened. And yet, despite that, Julius let himself be talked to not killing Julia outright.

Just as how this part is utterly stupid on Manfroy's part, it is just as stupid as Julius/Loptous' part. 

In other words, there were more exceptions. However, I'm taking it based on how Jahn is describing it, where pretty much the entirety of the Divine Dragons refused the war.

You're going on a tangent away from what I'm trying to debate here. If you think the execution is bad, fair enough, but it only works if you acknowledge that an execution is actually taking place.

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In other words, there were more exceptions. However, I'm taking it based on how Jahn is describing it, where pretty much the entirety of the Divine Dragons refused the war.

Yes, the entirety of the Divine Dragons refused to fight in the war, after the dragon leaders decided to resort to cloning, as they believed such a thing went against nature.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, Alvis failed to stop Julius from getting possessed and Deirdre died for it. What's your point? That led directly to his personality in the Second Gen where he's riddled with guilt and regret. Alvis is a shitty person who failed to realize he was being played, but that doesn't make him a bad character. Bad person maybe, but not a bad character.

1

It is incredibly stupid of Arvis, to be depicted as this really intelligent and competent person that would be able to plan things rather well. Even if Manfroy outplayed him in hooking up with Deirdre, Manfroy didn't make a move to turn Julius evil until Julius was 7-8 years old. Are you telling me that Arvis was incapable of putting 2 and 2 together by the time he found out that Deirdre was his sister? Really? 

Or did he actually delay when he learned about Deirdre's origins? Are you saying that he learned that Deirdre was his sister at the literal last minute when Julius got possessed? No, he didn't.

He had to have learned it way before Julius got corrupted or before Julius was even born. Meaning he had not even ATTEMPTED to try and protect Julius? Or tried to eliminate the Lopto Sect? He was the emperor by then, meaning that he had all the power at that point. 

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're going on a tangent away from what I'm trying to debate here. If you think the execution is bad, fair enough, but it only works if you acknowledge that an execution is actually taking place.

 

Yeah, I will say the execution is bad.

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, the entirety of the Divine Dragons refused to fight in the war, after the dragon leaders decided to resort to cloning, as they believed such a thing went against nature.

Yet from what it sounds like, the majority of the Fire and Ice Dragons clearly were fighting against the humans. Given how small Arcadia is, I would argue that Arcadia didn't have that many dragons, especially when you consider that Fae is the referred to as the last true dragon. 

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is incredibly stupid of Arvis, to be depicted as this really intelligent and competent person that would be able to plan things rather well. Even if Manfroy outplayed him in hooking up with Deirdre, Manfroy didn't make a move to turn Julius evil until Julius was 7-8 years old. Are you telling me that Arvis was incapable of putting 2 and 2 together by the time he found out that Deirdre was his sister? Really? 

Honestly, I suspect he hoped neither of his children had inherited Major Lopt blood. Maybe he did try to banish the lopt sect, which seems likely given how they're only meant to have recently started appearing in positions of power, but didn't want to go full witch hunt on them. We know he did try to banish Julius himself at some point, but it just didn't take. In the end, he wasn't in a great position, his only true, surefire way to stop Loptyr returning would have been to murder both his children, with the knowledge that they may or may not have major lopt blood due to inconsistent holy blood mechanics.

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yet from what it sounds like, the majority of the Fire and Ice Dragons clearly were fighting against the humans. Given how small Arcadia is, I would argue that Arcadia didn't have that many dragons, especially when you consider that Fae is the referred to as the last true dragon. 

Arcadia's population of dragons does seem pretty small, but also bear in mind that the dragon population over all was not that big. Regardless, that's the sum of things. Most of the dragons were killed fighting the eight heroes and overwhelming number of human enemies, some fled to Arcadia while others fled beyond the Dragon's Gate. All of the Divine Dragons were in the latter two categories (or maybe even just in Arcadia).

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly, I suspect he hoped neither of his children had inherited Major Lopt blood. Maybe he did try to banish the lopt sect, which seems likely given how they're only meant to have recently started appearing in positions of power, but didn't want to go full witch hunt on them. We know he did try to banish Julius himself at some point, but it just didn't take. In the end, he wasn't in a great position, his only true, surefire way to stop Loptyr returning would have been to murder both his children, with the knowledge that they may or may not have major lopt blood due to inconsistent holy blood mechanics.

2

You mean that he didn't try to post any kind of guards, keep the kids close in hand, make sure that no one could get near them without his permission, etc? With his resources and power, there should have been no way for Manfroy to even get in the castle. Thanks to the power struggle, Arvis united almost all of Jugdral. 

Arvis didn't make a movie against the Lopto Sect. Rather, he expresses just as his quote says. he didn't realize until he was too late. That's bad story writing, in that Arvis had to realize he sired the anti-Christ because he was too incompetent to put two and two together, which Gen 1 was focused strictly to show that he's not really that incompetent.

If you ask me, Kaga should never have made that statement about Arvis investigating Deirdre's origins and finding out that she's his sister. Had this been the one thing that Arvis didn't know or realize, or never managed to bear fruit, it could have worked out. But Kaga went and made Arvis have to look so stupid as to know that info. 

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Arcadia's population of dragons does seem pretty small, but also bear in mind that the dragon population over all was not that big. Regardless, that's the sum of things. Most of the dragons were killed fighting the eight heroes and overwhelming number of human enemies, some fled to Arcadia while others fled beyond the Dragon's Gate. All of the Divine Dragons were in the latter two categories (or maybe even just in Arcadia).

Consider how War Dragons, who are said to be mostly inferior to normal dragons b Jahn I believe, they already have such a superior advantage. It doesn't strike to me that this would make any sense that there would ever be a numbers advantage. The ratio would need to be astronomically high for the humans to ever have an advantage over dragons for sheer numbers to be able to overwhelm the dragons. Then again, I always felt the Elibe Dragons were weaker than the Arhanean Dragons, so this could just be a case of perception.

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

But Loptous himself, everything learned about him, and the story of how he ended up in Jugdral, all that was stated by Kaga himself, and that basically expresses Loptous' character. In that, he is a hypocrite that would become dependent on humans for the sole purpose of exacting vengeance on the human race, that did absolutely nothing wrong. 

No, actually, it's not. Forseti/Lewyn spills the bean in the final chapter. There's some inference to be done, but what Kaga does explicitly state make the inferences pretty clear in hindsight.

Galle left Jugdral and went to a distant continent. He found a dragon, drank its blood, and came back to Jugdral with dark powers. From there, the possessions and rise of the Lopto Sect began. Then, 12 dragons came from their plane to aid humans in fighting the Lopto Sect.

With the knowledge that Naga is part of this game, that dragons are still (Relatively)flourishing, and that Naga's power is the only one capable of really hurting Loptyr, you can make connections.

A) That this game takes place before FE1-3 and the war of dragons had been truly settled. The opening implies this as well

B) That Loptyr is an Earth/Shadow Dragon, a Dragon clan that sees humans as cattle, that fled the war(Seeing as he's not in the table and still has his mind) and is using humans to live on

These are pretty easy to pick up on from details you get in the game. What you admittedly can't really pick up on is why he's using humans and willingly made a pact with Galle. That, yes, had to be clarified by Kaga, in that it was all just to avoid degeneration. But everything else? It is in the game and the hoops you have to jump through to make sense of it aren't that small.

Do you not agree that this is still objectively WAAAAY more than we got on why Grima is a thing? We could have made the inference that Grima was ALSO an Earth Dragon who avoided the Table, as many people had assumed before SoV, but this turned out to be entirely not true, meaning the bits and piece we got before SoV weren't even all that clear.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

These are pretty easy to pick up on from details you get in the game. What you admittedly can't really pick up on are why he's using humans. That, yes, had to be clarified by Kaga, in that it was all just to avoid degeneration. But everything else? It is in the game and the hoops you have to jump through to make sense of it aren't that small.

 

No, it wasn't to avoid degeneration. His goal was always just one thing: make humans suffer. 

Quote

A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision.

He wasn't using humans to escape degeneration. He was using humans just so he could have revenge on humans. Revenge for what? Existing. 

That's it. He hates humans because they exist and humans ultimately becoming the dominant species in Archanea. 

Also, Blood Pact... doesn't function as an escape from degeneration. It never was. I don't know why anyone thinks that. Loptous spirit does exist through the blood, yes, just as Naga's does through Heim, performing a blood pact by no means indicates that your body is gone. Loptous performed the blood pact, but he still had a physical body. Which was presumably sealed away or killed in the dragon war. But the blood pact doesn't truly make any avoidance of degeneration. And he doesn't fully possess his hosts, only his will influences and warps them.

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Do you not agree that this is still objectively WAAAAY more than we got on why Grima is a thing? We could have made the inference that Grima was ALSO an Earth Dragon who avoided the Table, as many people had assumed before SoV, but this turned out to be entirely not true, meaning the bits and piece we got before SoV weren't even all that clear.

Grima's origins were a mystery, yes. But what we lacked in information, we ended up getting something different. In that, unlike Loptous, we got to SEE just how much danger he poses to the world. How his very existence can destroy all hope. With the cutscenes and how Lucina reacted at seeing Grima in person, she was downright terrified. Though the localization one wasn't as great as the original (that extra booming echo in Japanese was just terrifying to me), it was still pretty dark in how Grima showed just how far he had won, and how dire things looked for Lucina. 

There was really nothing to need to understand where Grima was coming from, only understand what Grima's existence posed to the world. @Otts486 describes it best, in that Grima is basically this force of nature.

Maybe that's why I'm able to appreciate Grima so much. Because rather than having to hear and be told about Grima, I got to really SEE the destruction and chaos he wrought. 

[Ottservia]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima's origins were a mystery, yes. But what we lacked in information, we ended up getting something different. In that, unlike Loptous, we got to SEE just how much danger he poses to the world. How his very existence can destroy all hope. With the cutscenes and how Lucina reacted at seeing Grima in person, she was downright terrified. Though the localization one wasn't as great as the original (that extra booming echo in Japanese was just terrifying to me), it was still pretty dark in how Grima showed just how far he had won, and how dire things looked for Lucina. 

There was really nothing to need to understand where Grima was coming from, only understand what Grima's existence posed to the world. @Otts486 describes it best, in that Grima is basically this force of nature.

Maybe that's why I'm able to appreciate Grima so much. Because rather than having to hear and be told about Grima, I got to really SEE the destruction and chaos he wrought.

Thank you and that's exactly my point. you see the problem here is that everyone is analyzing grima under the assumption he is a narrative villain which he isn't. if you do that, then you'll be woefully disappointed because as a narrative villain he sucks. He has no backstory(at the time anyway), motivations, ideals, etc. he just has the goal of killing humanity. which would normally be a bad thing if he was a narrative villain but he's a force of nature villain which don't need those things. Grima in it of himself is supposed to represent hopelessness. The hopelessness in trying to defy your fate, hopelessness in trying to fight on despite such dire circumstances. In this he somewhat succeeds. Now could have it been better? most definitively but I wouldn't say it's terrible.