New Heroes Appear: Nohrian Dusk (September 14th ~)

[bottlegnomes]

25 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Ally Support is stronger when you use it as a spur than as a drive, it's also a lot easier to apply buffs if you're allowed to be next to people. (And Swift Sparrow basically never had a reason to exist, anyway, between Fury 3's better bulk and L&D's better offense.)

For PP units, SS is outright better than fury if they aren't running desperation—the +3 def is outweighed by the 6 damage—and possibly still better even then, and L&D puts them in danger of being OHKOed on the counter.

[DehNutCase]

21 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

For PP units, SS is outright better than fury if they aren't running desperation—the +3 def is outweighed by the 6 damage—and possibly still better even then, and L&D puts them in danger of being OHKOed on the counter.

You do realize the same reason that makes SS better than L&D would make Fury better than SS, right? Similarly, the same reason that would make SS better than Fury would make L&D better than SS.

 

You either need bulk, or you don't. I'd be willing to forgive how wishy-washy SS was as a skill if it was at least as general as Fury and L&D---I'd rate Atk/Def + 4 slightly better than L&D and Fury---but the fact of the matter is, player phase units do, in fact, have enemy phases.

Cordelia, for example, matches up a lot better against dragons on the enemy phase than the player phase, by negating half their skill-slots.

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

You do realize the same reason that makes SS better than L&D would make Fury better than SS, right? Similarly, the same reason that would make SS better than Fury would make L&D better than SS.

 

You either need bulk, or you don't. I'd be willing to forgive how wishy-washy SS was as a skill if it was at least as general as Fury and L&D---I'd rate Atk/Def + 4 slightly better than L&D and Fury---but the fact of the matter is, player phase units do, in fact, have enemy phases.

Cordelia, for example, matches up a lot better against dragons on the enemy phase than the player phase, by negating half their skill-slots.

The thing is a lot of mages, or even just PP units, are squishy, but not so squishy that they can't take one hit. That -5 though, is pretty massive. Take Nino. She goes from bulk of 52/59 to 47/54. She was already in danger of getting OHKOed, but L&D makes that a really risky proposition. Or BH Lyn. She already has enough trouble surviving dragons; she doesn't need to be made more frail. For Fury, true, they can have existent EP—I've used both Lyn and Rein to tank plenty—but most would rather just have enough def to be passable, so they would actually rather have the +1 attack and speed than the +3 def and res. As Ice Dragon pointed out to me, SS also means potentially avoiding chills.

I'm not saying it's a perfect skill, but it does have its uses over the other two. If you can afford to dump your defenses, L&D is absolutely the best. If you absolutely need the extra bulk or your speed and attack are already obnoxiously high, fury might be the best. If you're somewhere in between, SS has you covered.

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

The thing is a lot of mages, or even just PP units, are squishy, but not so squishy that they can't take one hit. That -5 though, is pretty massive. Take Nino. She goes from bulk of 52/59 to 47/54. She was already in danger of getting OHKOed, but L&D makes that a really risky proposition. Or BH Lyn. She already has enough trouble surviving dragons; she doesn't need to be made more frail. For Fury, true, they can have existent EP—I've used both Lyn and Rein to tank plenty—but most would rather just have enough def to be passable, so they would actually rather have the +1 attack and speed than the +3 def and res. As Ice Dragon pointed out to me, SS also means potentially avoiding chills.

I'm not saying it's a perfect skill, but it does have its uses over the other two. If you can afford to dump your defenses, L&D is absolutely the best. If you absolutely need the extra bulk or your speed and attack are already obnoxiously high, fury might be the best. If you're somewhere in between, SS has you covered.

The thing is, it's pretty rare that you can afford to trade 5 bulk for 1 atk but can't trade 3 bulk for 1 Atk. For one single combat SS is +1/+1 offenses relative to Fury, but -3/-3 defenses, while it's +5/+5 defenses relative to L&D, but -1/-1 offenses. If Nino is getting OHKO'd by -5/-5 it's pretty likely she's getting OHKO'd by -3/-3 as well.

 

Regarding Horse!Lyn, the only reason to run her over staffs is if you need to kill things quickly---that is, in a single round---otherwise you can just dazzling gravity things into oblivion over multiple rounds, which is why I pretty much always have Brave Bow L&D on her. (I personally don't like running staves because they don't have mobility assists, but Gravity covers a lot of the issues for that, since it takes mobility away from the enemy team.) And L&D is also an enemy phase skill, speed is a defense stat, +2 spd is often worth dropping 8 bulk for (L&D v. Fury), and 5 spd is pretty much always worth 5 bulk if you're trying not to die on EP (L&D v. SS). This is why mages with Fury is a lot more dangerous than mages with SS on defense teams, SS makes them trivial to kill, whereas Fury at least forces the enemy to use a brave weapon rather than just outspeeding for a double.

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Ally Support is stronger when you use it as a spur than as a drive, it's also a lot easier to apply buffs if you're allowed to be next to people. (And Swift Sparrow basically never had a reason to exist, anyway, between Fury 3's better bulk and L&D's better offense.)

Except player phase units aren't usually moving everyone into space adjacent to where he/she will attack.  Usually player phase units go forward by themselves and then are repoed or danced for more kills or moving to safety.  Spurs don't come into play too much.  

All that spur stacking is great for enemy phase units who all squish together.  However most of those aren't running swift sparrow or LnD3 anyways.  

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Except player phase units aren't usually moving everyone into space adjacent to where he/she will attack.  Usually player phase units go forward by themselves and then are repoed or danced for more kills or moving to safety.  Spurs don't come into play too much.  

All that spur stacking is great for enemy phase units who all squish together.  However most of those aren't running swift sparrow or LnD3 anyways.  

Watch my video on Abyssal Marth---it's pretty easy to spurs consistently on player phase units once you're used to it.

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The thing is, it's pretty rare that you can afford to trade 5 bulk for 1 atk but can't trade 3 bulk for 1 Atk. For one single combat SS is +1/+1 offenses relative to Fury, but -3/-3 defenses, while it's +5/+5 defenses relative to L&D, but -1/-1 offenses. If Nino is getting OHKO'd by -5/-5 it's pretty likely she's getting OHKO'd by -3/-3 as well.

But she's not -3/-3 with SS. She's 0/0. That or she's -8/-8 with L&D, which is very liable to get you killed.

 

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

And L&D is also an enemy phase skill, speed is a defense stat, +2 spd is often worth dropping 8 bulk for (L&D v. Fury), and 5 spd is pretty much always worth 5 bulk if you're trying not to die on EP (L&D v. SS).

I'm not disagreeing on speed being a defensive stat, but there are units where that -5/-5 puts you in danger. Again, take Nino. 47 physical bulk is 33 + a regular weapon. 52 is 38 + a regular weapon. That's the difference between neutral Abel and +atk Cordelia, i.e. huge. 52 vs 55 is +atk Cordelia vs basically neutral Effie, which is a much smaller gap.

 

9 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

This is why mages with Fury is a lot more dangerous than mages with SS on defense teams, SS makes them trivial to kill, whereas Fury at least forces the enemy to use a brave weapon rather than just outspeeding for a double.

Most players and tier lists are much more concerned with how much the skills help the units under their control, so defensive teams aren't generally a concern.

[DehNutCase]

5 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

But she's not -3/-3 with SS. She's 0/0. That or she's -8/-8 with L&D, which is very liable to get you killed.

SS is +1/+1/-3/-3 vs. Fury, and -1/-1/+5/+5 with L&D.

 

If L&D was only 4 speed and Atk I'd buy your comparison, but it's 5.

[bottlegnomes]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

SS is +1/+1/-3/-3 vs. Fury, and -1/-1/+5/+5 with L&D.

You compared L&D and neutral as if one was -5/-5 and the other was -3/-3. You're mixing scales.

20 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

If Nino is getting OHKO'd by -5/-5 it's pretty likely she's getting OHKO'd by -3/-3 as well.

Edited September 14, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[DehNutCase]

3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

You compared L&D and neutral as if one was -5/-5 and the other was -3/-3. You're mixing scales.

It costs 3 bulk to get 1 of both offense stats for SS vs. Fury.

It costs 5 bulk to get 1 of both offense stats for L&D vs. SS.

 

SS is only worth it in the extremely rare case where 1 of both offenses is worth between 3 and 5 bulk. If 1 of both offenses is worth more than 5 bulk you go L&D always, otherwise, if it's worth less than 3 bulk you go Fury always.

Do you not know how opportunity cost works?

Edited September 14, 2018 by DehNutCase

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

SS is only worth it in the extremely rare case where 1 of both offenses is worth between 3 and 5 bulk. If 1 of both offenses is worth more than 5 bulk you go L&D always, otherwise, if it's worth less than 3 bulk you go Fury always.

44 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

If you can afford to dump your defenses, L&D is absolutely the best. If you absolutely need the extra bulk or your speed and attack are already obnoxiously high, fury might be the best. If you're somewhere in between, SS has you covered.

This was my exact argument, dumbass. Maybe take come comprehension lessons or get out of your own ass so you can actually see the screen.

 

[DehNutCase]

Just now, bottlegnomes said:

This was my exact argument, dumbass. Maybe take come comprehension lessons or get out of your own ass so you can actually see the screen.

Your argument is that player phase units that only ever use their player phase offenses and happened to value 1atk/1spd at between 3 def/3 res and 5 def / 5 res is such a common situation that SS is

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

For PP units, SS is outright better than fury if they aren't running desperation—the +3 def is outweighed by the 6 damage—and possibly still better even then, and L&D puts them in danger of being OHKOed on the counter.

 

This might surprise you, but extremely niche skills tends to be bad. Even ignoring the fact that the best player phase units happen to have enemy phases.

[bottlegnomes]

21 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Your argument is that player phase units that only ever use their player phase offenses

For 99% of cases yes. That's why they're PP, not MP. I'm aware I said I've used both Rein and Lyn as tanks, but again, that 1%.

 

21 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

value 1atk/1spd at between 3 def/3 res and 5 def / 5 res is such a common situation that SS is

 

This might surprise you, but extremely niche skills tends to be bad. Even ignoring the fact that the best player phase units happen to have enemy phases.

It might surprise you but most glass cannons in the game are made to be able to take one hit without support. Which can't be said when they lose as much defense as a super-super bane.

Edited September 14, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Flying Shogi]

Usually units with Valor skills are an instant pull for me but a 4 character banner doesn't have the best chances so I'll wait until Nina comes back on a 3 character banner. Here's to hoping that Dagger and Red Tome Valor make it into the general summoning pool eventually. Funny enough, it was this very decision that I decided to pull on the new FE4 banner.

Other people might have already mentioned this but Slaying Spear(non plus version) is finally available. 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by tobuShogi

[DehNutCase]

12 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

For 99% of cases yes. That's why they're PP, not MP. I'm aware I said I've used both Rein and Lyn as tanks, but again, that 1%.

 

It might surprise you but most glass cannons in the game are made to be able to take one hit without support. Which can't be said when they lose as much defense as a super-super bane.

Cordelia, Camus, Reinhardt Sword, Reinahardt Tome, Odin, Tharja, W!Tharja, Bow Jakob, Green Henry, Tome Lyn, Tana, Elincia, Flying Ryoma, Ayra, Karla, Karel, Raven, Oscar.

 

Do I need to print basically half the player phase capable units in the game or do you get the point already that a ton of people have enemy phases?

 

Edit: The key is that melee refines give 5 hp, and that if you needed more bulk than that Fury is an option, and if you need more speed to avoid doubles L&D is an option. +5 spd/ -5 def/ -5 res is in fact better than nothing on the enemy phase, because it helps avoid doubles.

Edited September 14, 2018 by DehNutCase

[bottlegnomes]

8 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Cordelia, Camus, Reinhardt Sword, Reinahardt Tome, Odin, Tharja, W!Tharja, Bow Jakob, Green Henry, Tome Lyn, Tana, Elincia, Flying Ryoma, Ayra, Karla, Karel, Raven, Oscar.

Now that I'm done being snippy, would it change things if I said glass cannon? I generally, and from what I've seen, most people, use the terms interchangeably. It seems like you're not making a distinction between PP and EP the same way, i.e. you're considering a unit as capable of being both simultaneously—I would classify that as mixed phase—or built toward full PP or EP. All the units you listed can be built as MP, PP, or EP, though some prefer certain over others.

Also, to note, my initial post was not saying some characters can only be glass cannons/PP units, but that some characters are built as glass cannons/PP units.

Edited September 14, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[DehNutCase]

Just now, bottlegnomes said:

Now that I'm done being snippy, would it change things if I said glass cannon? I generally, and from what I've seen, most people, use the terms interchangeably. It seems like you're not making a distinction between PP and EP the same way, i.e. you're considering a unit as capable of being both simultaneously—I would classify that as mixed phase—or built toward full PP or EP. All the units you listed can be built as MP, PP, or even EP in some cases.

Glass Cannon is fine, and probably would've been clearer.

 

Regarding the MP v. PP v. EP thing, I would definitely classify my Cordelia as PP, but she does see EP combat fairly often. [L&D, Slaying Lance, Galeforce, Desperation, Savage Blow, Heavy Blade 3.]

 

The build is pretty clearly focused on being good at killing things with Galeforce, which is player phase only, but it's pretty common to run into people whose player phases are so bad---and whose enemy phases are so good---that Cordelia is better off killing them on the enemy phase.

Dragons are the biggest example---they pretty much have to fight while being attacked into, since they don't have the weapon choice to run good player phase sets and their speed tends to be very low, so no natural doubles when attacking. Practically every melee player phase unit would kill a dragon 1v1---although some would take multiple turns---unless it's a hilariously disadvantaged matchup (TA-3 or Breaker on the dragon), because player phase melees are naturally designed to have enough bulk to survive one hit while they double someone to death.

Fighting a dragon on EP just changes the attack order from Self > Enemy > Self to Enemy > Self > Self, while avoiding all the enemy phase skills like Steady Breath, QR, and whatever dragons like to run.

[bottlegnomes]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Glass Cannon is fine, and probably would've been clearer.

 

Regarding the MP v. PP v. EP thing, I would definitely classify my Cordelia as PP, but she does see EP combat fairly often. [L&D, Slaying Lance, Galeforce, Desperation, Savage Blow, Heavy Blade 3.]

 

The build is pretty clearly focused on being good at killing things with Galeforce, which is player phase only, but it's pretty common to run into people whose player phases are so bad---and whose enemy phases are so good---that Cordelia is better off killing them on the enemy phase.

Dragons are the biggest example---they pretty much have to fight while being attacked into, since they don't have the weapon choice to run good player phase sets and their speed tends to be very low, so no natural doubles when attacking. Practically every melee player phase unit would kill a dragon 1v1---although some would take multiple turns---unless it's a hilariously disadvantaged matchup (TA-3 or Breaker on the dragon), because player phase melees are naturally designed to have enough bulk to survive one hit while they double someone to death.

Fighting a dragon on EP just changes the attack order from Self > Enemy > Self to Enemy > Self > Self, while avoiding all the enemy phase skills like Steady Breath, QR, and whatever dragons like to run.

It seems like we're actually on the same page. That's also why I sometimes have Sigurd bait Nowis*. She can more often than I'd like tank two hits from Rein or Lyn, even with Hone cavs, and Sigurd gets wrecked initiating, but on EP, he can usually do fine and soften her up enough for one of the others to kill.

Re SS vs Fury vs L&D, real quick, my point was never that it's always optimal. More that it does have a place, even if it is niche, though I don't honestly have enough access to it to know how niche it is**. L&D is ideal if it doesn't put glass cannons in range of OHKOs, Fury is ideal if they could use the extra bulk, and SS is for everywhere in between whether that's big or not. That said, I'm not sure why it's seen as such a premium skill and it feels a little like a remnant of when PP was all that mattered but you occasionally needed to retain bulk.

Sorry about the miscommunication, probably should've clarified earlier, and the insults.

*My arena team is way behind the times, but I like them, am comfortable with them, and they've kept me where I care enough to be, so I don't have a huge urge to change.

**I've had one fodder for it and that went to Celica because I wanted to keep her as close to full health as possible while boosting her PP back when Ragnarok had the HP threshold and was a bit nervous that she'd be a little too close to OHKO range with L&D. Plus I didn't want to spend 20,000 feathers. Everyone else has it because it didn't seem like the effort to replace their default skill.

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

Sorry about the miscommunication, probably should've clarified earlier, and the insults.

Hah. You should see me and Ice Dragon arguing.

 

No worries, I get pretty heated myself when I'm debating stuff.

[Johann]

I'm a big fan of Swift Sparrow on specific units that work far better by maintaining decent HP over a long period, especially in events like Grand Conquest. With the Galeforce build I use on Cain, Fury would wear him out too fast, and I don't like L&D's Def/Res hit on any unit who isn't using Firesweep. Likewise, I prefer to keep Gunnthra's HP up so she can use Chilling Seal.

New units are ok, nothing especially appeals to me. I'm mildly interested in Silas just because Anthony Del Rio is such an awesome VA, so maybe I'll build him when he's inevitably demoted.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

12 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

(The Tap Battles make me think FE7 is next anyway.)

If FE7 is next, all I ask is Fiora. And as a GOOD unit, not disappointing like Florina. Sain, Wil, Isadora, Nils, Pent, and a bunch of others would be cool, but Fiora is my single most-wanted FE7 character that isn't in the game yet.

[mampfoid]

No datamined stats yet? I just got an in-game update. 

[Poimagic]

The stats are out

Spoiler

I’ll post again when I can get a better image

 

[Lewyn]

Spoiler

Well pretty obvious what the next banner is going to be!  No wonder it is one month long.  Original characters as I predicted (I said that or beast units).  That banner is going to make IS so much money it isn't even funny!  Stats for the Nohr units look good.  

 

[Landmaster]

Spoiler

LAEVATEIN YAAAAASSSSSS, I always wanted her to be playable~

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Landmaster