[DATAMINE] Special Heroes Arrive! Greil's Devoted!

[Gregster101]

19 minutes ago, Xenovia said:

So...is this the Path of Radiance banner IS mentioned would be coming out in 2019 (after the Dream banner fiasco)?  If so, it looks like Jill won't be added to the game any time soon :( 

IS said there would be a RD banner in January, which was the laguz banner that we got. I'm pretty confident we'll get at least one more Tellius banner this year considering beast units seem to be the hot new thing for Book 3. Maybe we'll get a PoR banner with Jill, Ranulf, and Lethe.

[Alastor15243]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

As I mentioned before, Ike and Zelgius fought in Part 3, and if Ike wins, Zelgius comments that Ike is still not at Greil's level. 

The empowerment of the blessing isn't simply a boost in raw power. Their skills and abilities would obviously grow as well. 

So Ike before the blessing not being a Greil's level, then soon enough getting a blessing and is suddenly at Greil's level. This jump in power is a clear indication that the blessing played a major part. 

Like, seriously. There isn't any reading between the lines here. It's straight up stated.

Only if you assume (without evidence, because he never says he feels more skilled) that the blessing boosted his skill with the sword, and also think nothing happened between that fight and the second. Zelgius didn’t make it sound like Ike was too far off. My interpretation was that he finally made it to Greil’s level during that massive trek to the tower of guidance.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Only if you assume (without evidence, because he never says he feels more skilled) that the blessing boosted his skill with the sword, and also think nothing happened between that fight and the second. Zelgius didn’t make it sound like Ike was too far off. My interpretation was that he finally made it to Greil’s level during that massive trek to the tower of guidance.

Power and strength can very well be equated to one's skill with the sword, though. Ike commenting that he feels stronger that he can take on anyone is another testament about how he feels like he's grown in skill as well. It wouldn't make sense if the strength Ike really felt was gaining superstrength, which just isn't true. He fights with a sword, and therefore the blessing boosted his skills. 

In the end, no matter how much you try to deny it, Ike's growth in the end to reach Greil's level was attributed to the blessing of a goddess. 

Yes, it does feel like a cop-out. Yes, it probably should have been Ike growing strong on his own, but the writers ended up making it a magic blessing that did it in the end. But then again, a lot of the writing in RD is rather poor. 

[Xenovia]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

As I mentioned before, Ike and Zelgius fought in Part 3, and if Ike wins, Zelgius comments that Ike is still not at Greil's level. 

The empowerment of the blessing isn't simply a boost in raw power. Their skills and abilities would obviously grow as well. 

So Ike before the blessing not being a Greil's level, then soon enough getting a blessing and is suddenly at Greil's level. This jump in power is a clear indication that the blessing played a major part. 

Like, seriously. There isn't any reading between the lines here. It's straight up stated.

What if it was a case of sour grapes, and Zelgius wasn't being sincere?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Xenovia said:

What if it was a case of sour grapes, and Zelgius wasn't being sincere?

Zelgius's worship of the strength General Gawain possessed and the value he held in that strength would not be something that he would ever lie about. If anything, he has never really lied per se in the game. 

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Power and strength can very well be equated to one's skill with the sword, though. Ike commenting that he feels stronger that he can take on anyone is another testament about how he feels like he's grown in skill as well. It wouldn't make sense if the strength Ike really felt was gaining superstrength, which just isn't true. He fights with a sword, and therefore the blessing boosted his skills. 

In the end, no matter how much you try to deny it, Ike's growth in the end to reach Greil's level was attributed to the blessing of a goddess. 

Yes, it does feel like a cop-out. Yes, it probably should have been Ike growing strong on his own, but the writers ended up making it a magic blessing that did it in the end. But then again, a lot of the writing in RD is rather poor. 

You are guessing. You are reading things in the text (that power also means skill) that aren’t there to contradict what the text itself explicitly says (that Ike has become as skilled as his father in a way neither he nor Zelgius would recognize as bullshit). This is not ironclad proof I have to fight to deny. What you are saying is practically baseless.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

You are guessing. You are reading things in the text (that power also means skill) that aren’t there to contradict what the text itself explicitly says (that Ike has become as skilled as his father). This is not ironclad proof I have to fight to deny. What you are saying is practically baseless.

Not really. When the game itself shows that Ike has grown stronger thanks to a blessing from a goddess, and before that, is not at Greil's level, but is at Greil's level after, it's right there. If anyone is trying to fight it by saying something baseless, such as the claim of hyperbole, that'd be you.

Edited February 8, 2019 by omegaxis1

[Othin]

9 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

IS said there would be a RD banner in January, which was the laguz banner that we got. I'm pretty confident we'll get at least one more Tellius banner this year considering beast units seem to be the hot new thing for Book 3. Maybe we'll get a PoR banner with Jill, Ranulf, and Lethe.

Another FE9 banner would make a lot of sense now that beasts are in the game, and those three do seem like good picks.

Hopefully Ashnard GHB, too. He's overdue, I'd say.

[Alastor15243]

26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. When the game itself shows that Ike has grown stronger thanks to a blessing from a goddess, and before that, is not at Greil's level, but is at Greil's level after, it's right there. If anyone is trying to fight it by saying something baseless, such as the claim of hyperbole, that'd be you.

Again, you’re acting as if divine intervention is the only conceivable explanation for how Ike could improve his swordsmanship between those two fights, when that’s demonstrably not the case. Just because stats aren’t a reliable demonstration of canon power doesn’t mean nobody ever “levels up”.

And again, we're not talking about strength. It's skill we're talking about, and you have no proof the blessing made him more skilled, which you need for your claim to have any basis at all. The blessing making him more skilled is the only way he could only owe becoming Greil's equal in Zelgius's eyes to the blessing. So you have no proof at all for your claim.

And as an aside, even if we were talking about strength, exactly how powerful do you imagine Greil to have been that his vastly more accomplished son needed to become a demigod to become his equal?

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

24 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Again, you’re acting as if divine intervention is the only conceivable explanation for how Ike could improve his swordsmanship between those two fights, when that’s demonstrably not the case. Just because stats aren’t a reliable demonstration of canon power doesn’t mean nobody ever “levels up”.

And again, we're not talking about strength. It's skill we're talking about, and you have no proof the blessing made him more skilled, which you need for your claim to have any basis at all. The blessing making him more skilled is the only way he could only owe becoming Greil's equal in Zelgius's eyes to the blessing. So you have no proof at all for your claim.

And as an aside, even if we were talking about strength, exactly how powerful do you imagine Greil to have been that his vastly more accomplished son needed to become a demigod to become his equal?

2

First off, you're trying to claim that the blessing from a goddess ultimately does nothing when literally, the game has been doing nothing but demonstrate that the goddess's powers and blessings are serious business. Yes, the goddesses are inconsistent, but the game has been using them nonetheless for the sake of plot convenience. 

Second, what you are using is a translation from Japanese text that can very well have various interpretations and contextual meaning. Skill can very well be spoken as one's strength. Just as one can be very skilled with a weapon, and people will label them as "strong".

And finally, that's just it. Greil is the legendary figure that in his prime is so powerful and great that it took Ike to fight through two wars and a blessing from a goddess to match up to Greil. Legendary figures are talked about in legend for how amazingly strong they are but are almost never fully shown in their might. The Elibe Heroes, Anri, the Crusaders, and here, General Gawain. We hear about how powerful they were, but we're never to actually see how powerful and mighty they truly are first hand. 

The Greil we know is crippled and a shadow of his former self, but still is so strong. But in his prime? We never see it for ourselves. And that's how it always works.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Second, what you are using is a translation from Japanese text that can very well have various interpretations and contextual meaning. Skill can very well be spoken as one's strength. Just as one can be very skilled with a weapon, and people will label them as "strong".

Is the business about Zelgius wanting to fight Greil at his peak even in the original japanese? I know that the business about Zelgius letting Ike win in service of seeing that was entirely made up by the localization because the original text was some nonsense about Ike fighting Zelgius's ghost.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Is the business about Zelgius wanting to fight Greil at his peak even in the original japanese? I know that the business about Zelgius letting Ike win in service of seeing that was entirely made up by the localization because the original text was some nonsense about Ike fighting Zelgius's ghost.

Yes. Even in the original, Zelgius worshipped Greil and wanted nothing more than to best him. But the localization made the reason why Zelgius lost to Ike back then make infinitely more sense than the original one, where his soul was not truly there due to the malfunction of the warp powder.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes. Even in the original, Zelgius worshipped Greil and wanted nothing more than to best him. But the localization made the reason why Zelgius lost to Ike back then make infinitely more sense than the original one, where his soul was not truly there due to the malfunction of the warp powder.

Alright. If you're familiar with the japanese version, I suppose you know where to find a translation of the original text so we can sort this out?

And again, I find it highly suspect that you think the blessing was both insanely powerful but was also simultaneously just barely enough to make a legendary hero of two wars who was described as "almost" as good as his father suddenly the equal of his mere mortal father who had no blessings of any kind.

But honestly at this point, if you find that information, PM it to me, because I think we've been off topic in this thread for too long.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Alright. If you're familiar with the japanese version, I suppose you know where to find a translation of the original text so we can sort this out?

And again, I find it highly suspect that you think the blessing was both insanely powerful but was also simultaneously just barely enough to make a legendary hero of two wars who was described as "almost" as good as his father suddenly the equal of his mere mortal father who had no blessings of any kind.

But honestly at this point, if you find that information, PM it to me, because I think we've been off topic in this thread for too long.

... Why? You were the one that went out of his way to look over a Japanese text translation from the original to make a claim that it was wrong, but now you don't know if Zelgius had that obsession? Find it yourself since you're so curious. 

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

... Why? You were the one that went out of his way to look over a Japanese text translation from the original to make a claim that it was wrong, but now you don't know if Zelgius had that obsession? Find it yourself since you're so curious. 

I'm not the one who looked at the japanese text, I found the english game script and read that. You're the one who then claimed "But maybe the word they translated as skill actually means strength in japanese", so the burden of proof is on you. Also I have no idea where I'd find a translated version of the original script to check that.

[Gregster101]

49 minutes ago, Othin said:

Another FE9 banner would make a lot of sense now that beasts are in the game, and those three do seem like good picks.

Hopefully Ashnard GHB, too. He's overdue, I'd say.

Yeah. I'm surprised Ashnard and Nergal aren't already in the game tbh

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Gregster101 said:

Yeah. I'm surprised Ashnard and Nergal aren't already in the game tbh

Fair point. But then I think most final bosses aren't in the game yet (though technically Nergal isn't the final boss). I think the only ones in the game are Grima and Duma unless I'm very much mistaken.

[Gregster101]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Fair point. But then I think most final bosses aren't in the game yet (though technically Nergal isn't the final boss). I think the only ones in the game are Grima and Duma unless I'm very much mistaken.

Don't forget Garon and Fallen Takumi

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'm not the one who looked at the japanese text, I found the english game script and read that. You're the one who then claimed "But maybe the word they translated as skill actually means strength in japanese", so the burden of proof is on you. Also I have no idea where I'd find a translated version of the original script to check that.

Not really, since you're the one that brought it up the first place and tried to insist your claim that it wasn't the same thing. Like, really, the burden of finding proof doesn't fall to me by any means. 

[Alastor15243]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really, since you're the one that brought it up the first place and tried to insist your claim that it wasn't the same thing. Like, really, the burden of finding proof doesn't fall to me by any means. 

Your claim, again, is that a mere mortal was so insanely powerful that Ike, who accomplished way, way more than he ever did and beat the crap out of a guy who was powered up by Lehran's medallion and who was riding a giant black dragon, roughly halfway through his climb to greatness, only ever became his father's equal after receiving a blessing so powerful it allegedly made a slim thief strong enough to arm-wrestle a giant lion. Narratively, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and can and should be chocked up to inconsistent power level discussion in the narration due to gameplay and story segregation. But you insist, in defiance of the English text and without any knowledge of what the Japanese text says, that it's canon fact that Ike never legitimately surpassed his father and that Zelgius and Ike are both idiots for not realizing this.

How is the burden of proof on me?

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Your claim, again, is that a mere mortal was so insanely powerful that Ike, who accomplished way, way more than he ever did and beat the crap out of a guy who was powered up by Lehran's medallion and who was riding a giant black dragon, roughly halfway through his climb to greatness, only ever became his father's equal after receiving a blessing so powerful it allegedly made a slim thief strong enough to arm-wrestle a giant lion. Narratively, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and can and should be chocked up to inconsistent power level discussion in the narration due to gameplay and story segregation. But you insist, in defiance of the English text and without any knowledge of what the Japanese text says, that it's canon fact that Ike never legitimately surpassed his father and that Zelgius and Ike are both idiots for not realizing this.

How is the burden of proof on me?

That says ultimately more about Greil than it does about Ike. Like, as I once again stated, Greil was regarded as this amazingly insanely powerful legend that you only ever hear about. As I have stated before, this is how they do it in stories. They always tell you how strong they are, never show you. You never see Greil in his prime, but you hear how obscenely powerful he was. The very fact that Zelgius talks about Ike being Greil's equal in both localization and original goes to show that Ike has gone through all that and is merely Greil's equal. 

Just as Marth has fought through two wars, collected weapons and items, fighting against many foes, but states that he is not at the same league as Anri, who was a peasant that went through a magma cavern, scorching desert, huge mountains, and then went all the way back to fight Medeus. Like, that sounds ridiculously unbelievable, but he did it. By himself. We cannot believe that he did those things by himself with little to no resources, but apparently, he did. 

It's not MEANT to make sense. It's meant to be a type of a goalpost for characters. Legendary figures that are a level heroes strive to try and achieve. That's how it works.

[Alastor15243]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That says ultimately more about Greil than it does about Ike. Like, as I once again stated, Greil was regarded as this amazingly insanely powerful legend that you only ever hear about. As I have stated before, this is how they do it in stories. They always tell you how strong they are, never show you. You never see Greil in his prime, but you hear how obscenely powerful he was. The very fact that Zelgius talks about Ike being Greil's equal in both localization and original goes to show that Ike has gone through all that and is merely Greil's equal. 

Just as Marth has fought through two wars, collected weapons and items, fighting against many foes, but states that he is not at the same league as Anri, who was a peasant that went through a magma cavern, scorching desert, huge mountains, and then went all the way back to fight Medeus. Like, that sounds ridiculously unbelievable, but he did it. By himself. We cannot believe that he did those things by himself with little to no resources, but apparently, he did. 

It's not MEANT to make sense. It's meant to be a type of a goalpost for characters. Legendary figures that are a level heroes strive to try and achieve. That's how it works.

But, again, you have no proof whatsoever for any of this. You are basing it entirely on the fact that Zelgius declared Ike Greil's equal after receiving the blessing, and that therefore it was only thanks to the blessing that Ike became Greil's equal, which only works if:

1: The english was a very specific mistranslation and that they weren't purely talking about skill (unproven)

Or:

2: The blessing improved his skill (unproven)

and

3: Ike didn't make any other normal improvement in skill between those two fights with Zelgius (unproven).

Your entire argument is based on premises you have yet to provide any evidence for whatsoever, only semantic arguments for why it's plausible to believe it might be the case. You have shown absolutely nothing that would demonstrate any of these things are the case.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[thecrimsonflash]

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Your claim, again, is that a mere mortal was so insanely powerful that Ike, who accomplished way, way more than he ever did and beat the crap out of a guy who was powered up by Lehran's medallion and who was riding a giant black dragon, roughly halfway through his climb to greatness, only ever became his father's equal after receiving a blessing so powerful it allegedly made a slim thief strong enough to arm-wrestle a giant lion. Narratively, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and can and should be chocked up to inconsistent power level discussion in the narration due to gameplay and story segregation. But you insist, in defiance of the English text and without any knowledge of what the Japanese text says, that it's canon fact that Ike never legitimately surpassed his father and that Zelgius and Ike are both idiots for not realizing this.

How is the burden of proof on me?

look, I'm primarily in agreement with you, but we can't just go arguing "the japanese version could be different", we already have our basis, the differences are negligible at best, let's argue with what we have, not what may or may not be there.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

look, I'm primarily in agreement with you, but we can't just go arguing "the japanese version could be different", we already have our basis, the differences are negligible at best, let's argue with what we have, not what may or may not be there.

I'm a bit confused. I'm not the one arguing the japanese version could be different, omegaxis1 was the one who said that, unless I misunderstood them. I never made that claim.

[thecrimsonflash]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

I'm a bit confused. I'm not the one arguing the japanese version could be different, omegaxis1 was the one who said that, unless I misunderstood them. I never made that claim.

oh, I may have misread, regardless, my point still stands regardless of who brought it up first.