CannedCaineghis (Guy) vs AnonymousSpeed (Dorcas)

[AnonymousSpeed]

So, I was planning to start with debate with a brief excerpt on the character of Dorcas. However, going back over his supports, I found out that he's...kinda boring. He's level headed, he fights for his wife, and that's noble and all, but not terribly compelling. So we'll just talk about him and axes now.

Dorcas has 1-2 range. Ergo, I win.

Before you click off, let me explain a bit. Guy with hard mode bonuses has a statistical edge over Dorcas. However, his weapon type severely limits him and is what makes Dorcas the superior unit.

(As a quick aside, I used this thread as a reference for hard mode stats)

Reason #1 Axes make Dorcas better than Guy: 1-2 Range

Even on HHM, enemy quality is...not very high, and Dorcas with a Hand Axe is able to 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters with bases alone. You can do is plop him on a forest with a vulnerary and a hand axe and let him go to work. With his monstrous HP stat, Dorcas has enough durability to take three or four hits from the early game enemies, and his HP is going to increase much faster than their attack. This means he can take on a group of 3-4 enemies, survive, heal up (or retreat and get healed if he's wounded enough), repeat once or twice, boom. Work done.

How does Guy compare in a similar situation?

Well, unless he's only facing one range enemies, he's going to have to actually initiate on player phase. That's a turn he can't be using a vulnerary, so while a wounded Dorcas is still productive, a wounded Guy draws a "Lose A Turn" card from the monopoly man. He might also have to exit advantageous terrain to engage, which is pretty bad for a couple of reasons. Having to lose out on 1 defense / 20 avoid from a forest sucks already, but for someone with a dodge-reliant defense like Guy, it's extra bad.
Even worse is that, should Guy eat a counter hit while he's engaging...he can't heal. He's used his action. Dorcas doesn't need to worry about that.
What this means is that Guy takes 4+ turns to do what Dorcas does in 2-3 while kicking back with an ice cold healing item.

Not only is the 1-range lock of a swords an issue, so is their weak power. Remember how I said base Dorcas could kill most enemies in two to three hits with a Hand Axe? Well, base Guy with an Iron Sword isn't even 2HKO'ing low level Pegasus knights. True, Guy could use a Steel Sword to alleviate some of this, but his low con means he's losing 5 speed from that, so he needs several levels of speed just to actually have his supposed main advantage over Dorcas, doubling. Again, that's only on player phase.

Reason #2 Axes make Dorcas better than Guy: Enemy Lance Users

The prevalence of lance wielding fliers, infantry, and cavalry in FE7 is ridiculous. This is great news for Dorcas, who now hits quite consistently. Again looking at critical early chapters, ~80 hit against lance wielders by default is pretty good with 2RN, and his accuracy will improve faster than their avoid. Even by chapter 20, enemies are so slow or weighed down so much that Dorcas is still decapitating them from a multitude of distances. The main issue of axes and 1-2 range is alleviated.

For Guy, this is very bad news. Being a member of a class that relies on dodging, it's not cool to constantly face -15 avoid. When the unit who faces -15 avoid and must choose between healing and fighting each turn, it is extra not cool. It also worsens his offense slightly.

***

Let's continue to discuss durability. Guy's durability is marginally above Lyn's, which is good. However, while Dorcas is tanking 3-4 hits with regular working man stats, even Hard Mode Guy is only taking 3 hits. Dorcas will be gaining more HP and defense as the game goes on than Guy will, letting him take on even more enemies and bear even more blows at once. Further, when considering that FE7 is full of lance users, it becomes apparent that Guy is further disadvantaged in terms of durability.

Now, let's talk about Dorcas's speed, the thing everyone likes to complain about with him. It's not even that bad. He doesn't double, true. However, 1-2 range still means his combat is more efficient than Guy's. His 6 base speed is enough not to get doubled by most enemies even if it never improves. Most enemies in the very last chapters of the game don't even break the 10 AS needed to double base Dorcas. It's even enough to double knights and soldiers, which doesn't sound like a lot but at least Dorcas is 2HKO'ing these enemies while Guy isn't.

Some very fast enemies might double Dorcas, such as myrmidons and mercenaries. However, even even an un-weighed-down Guy isn't doubling those enemies. Dorcas isn't even doubled by nomads until like chapter 17, and unlike Guy he can counter then on enemy phase. You can also just...keep Dorcas out of range of these enemies, which is probably what you'd want to do with Guy too.

Lastly, Dorcas can get Lyn mode levels while Guy cannot. It's a small advantage, but since you have to play through Lyn mode to get all the HHM chapters, it's certainly one Dorcas is likely to have. He can easily get a level or two (not unlikely to yield some strength, skill, and HP) without cutting too much into the EXP pile for your cavaliers.

@CannedCaineghis, let's see how you handle being on the opposite end of a hearty fighter debate. May the best debater win!

[CannedCaineghis]

Before I get into crushing your arguments here XD,  I'd just like to thank you @AnonymousSpeed for trying to keep the debate community active and for the invitation! I can already tell this is going to be an interesting one. I plan on being a bit spicier than normal, so I hope I don't offend. 

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

So, I was planning to start with debate with a brief excerpt on the character of Dorcas. However, going back over his supports, I found out that he's...kinda boring. He's level headed, he fights for his wife, and that's noble and all, but not terribly compelling. So we'll just talk about him and axes now.

I mean... point Guy? No, I'll go into more detail.

Obviously Guy is from Sacae an area that gets very little representation this time around, but got much more in the previous game. He has one of the best supports Matthew has (and I don't wish to spoil that, everyone should see it on their own if they like Matthew as a character). He also serves as an excellent foil for Rath to one day accept leadership of the Kutolah tribe, as a Karel as a worthy opponent in due time, and somewhat a surrogate son to Louise. He fulfills the anime awkward "guy" role in his support with Priscilla. 

Let's move on to some of the misinterpretations of facts presented. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Dorcas has 1-2 range. Ergo, I win.

So does Guy, just not as consistently. However, this isn't Sacred Stones. Hand Axes and Tomahawks don't grow on trees. Dorcas doesn't have perpetual 1-2 range like you'd have us all believe. Even if it was true, he'd be stuck with 7 mt hand axes the majority of the game which side bee pretty effectively pegged me on in the Garcia v. Lute debate. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Before you click off, let me explain a bit. Guy with hard mode bonuses has a statistical edge over Dorcas.

More like *drastic* statistical edge. Str +1, Skl +6, Spd +7, Lck +2, Def +3, and Res +1 that's more than the bonuses Dorcas or Guy get on promotion. The only stat he's better in is HP and it's only by +5. Which starts to break down the unit durability argument, but we'll get to that later. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Dorcas with a Hand Axe is able to 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters with bases alone. You can do is plop him on a forest with a vulnerary and a hand axe and let him go to work. With his monstrous HP stat

Where is he getting this initial hand axe? Bartre? Wouldn't that hand axe be better on Markus in an efficient playthrough? Minor point, but a vulnerary he doesn't start with unlike Guy. 
Is his HP stat "monstrous" if it's only 5 HP higher than HHM Guy? His growth rate in HP is also only 5% higher than Guys. This "durability" argument really needs to be examined a bit more. 

Also, Dorcas *maybe* can 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters, *IF* he can actually hit. With his drastically lower skill, and using axes which are much more inaccurate (especially the hand axe!), I'm betting Guy is far more consistent rounding enemies on enemy phase even without HHM bonuses. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This means he can take on a group of 3-4 enemies, survive, heal up (or retreat and get healed if he's wounded enough), repeat once or twice, boom. Work done.

More like repeat until Dorcas actually hits. And yet another issue with the durability argument crops up here we'll cover below. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

How does Guy compare in a similar situation?

Well, unless he's only facing one range enemies, he's going to have to actually initiate on player phase. That's a turn he can't be using a vulnerary, so while a wounded Dorcas is still productive, a wounded Guy draws a "Lose A Turn" card from the monopoly man. He might also have to exit advantageous terrain to engage, which is pretty bad for a couple of reasons. Having to lose out on 1 defense / 20 avoid from a forest sucks already, but for someone with a dodge-reliant defense like Guy, it's extra bad.

Not only is the 1-range lock of a swords an issue, so is their weak power. 

 

Lot of issues here, so let's take them as they come in order to show how Guy *actually* compares. First, using a vulnerary on your turn for a non-mounted unit is often sub-optimal if we're assuming efficient play, let your healers be your healers and let your attackers be your attackers (why can't your friends be your friends and your workers be your workers). Second, Guy is as you put it "dodge reliant" for his defense, yet has 3 more base defense than Dorcas, I'll take the higher dodge chance plus higher defense every day of the week. 

Swords in general have weaker power than axes, but if you're proposing that Dorcas should almost always have a hand axe equipped this argument falls apart pretty quickly with the 7 mt on a hand axe. Almost every sword above iron beats this out or equals it. 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Remember how I said base Dorcas could kill most enemies in two to three hits with a Hand Axe? Well, base Guy with an Iron Sword isn't even 2HKO'ing low level Pegasus knights.

This scenario is pretty much a complete fabrication that disregards the fact that there aren't even Peg Knights in the chapter Guy shows up and the idea you'd force him to use iron only. With base HHM Guy having an extra strength over base Dorcas he'll be hitting for only 1 or two less against these Pegasus Knights (and he'll actually be hitting). 

 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

True, Guy could use a Steel Sword to alleviate some of this, but his low con means he's losing 5 speed from that, so he needs several levels of speed just to actually have his supposed main advantage over Dorcas, doubling.

Let's keep this in mind when you start mentioning other axes as options for Dorcas. But even with this being true, if Guy gets only 2 more points of speed (so essentially two, not really *several*, level ups for Guy) he's doubling Dorcas and people Dorcas can't double, again. 

 

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The prevalence of lance wielding fliers, infantry, and cavalry in FE7 is ridiculous. This is great news for Dorcas, who now hits quite consistently. Again looking at critical early chapters, ~80 hit against lance wielders by default is pretty good with 2RN, and his accuracy will improve faster than their avoid. 

For Guy, this is very bad news. Being a member of a class that relies on dodging, it's not cool to constantly face -15 avoid. When the unit who faces -15 avoid and must choose between healing and fighting each turn, it is extra not cool. It also worsens his offense slightly.

Yes, HHM has tons of lance users to balance things for Hector being your main lord. However, the Lancereaver exists and even without it, with weapon triangle disadvantage Guy is hitting *every* time especially in 2RN, where Dorcas in 2RN still has chances to miss somehow with weapon triangle advantage. Not to mention, the prevalence of better axe wielders on your team (Like the aforementioned Hector) means every resource you put towards Dorcas is a resource you took away from those better users of axes. 

Going back to this old well again, yes Myrmidons and Swordmasters often are less durable than other classes and thus rely on avoid, but in the case Dorcas V. Guy, Guy has better avoid *and* better defensive stats. At base, at level 10, at level 20, and at promotion. Only late into their promotions does this stop being true, and shouldn't the journey to that late into promotion matter much much more? Also, again, "let your healers be your healers and your fighters be your fighers".  

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Let's continue to discuss durability. Guy's durability is marginally above Lyn's, which is good. However, while Dorcas is tanking 3-4 hits with regular working man stats, even Hard Mode Guy is only taking 3 hits. Dorcas will be gaining more HP and defense as the game goes on than Guy will, letting him take on even more enemies and bear even more blows at once. 

If Guy's durability is "marginally above" Lyn's I can't imagine what you'll say about a unit with 3 less defense than Guy has.... wait Dorcas has 3 less defense than Guy and you're saying he's more durable.... huh? Average stats on Serenes Forest itself (taking into account hard mode bonuses) can disprove the idea that Dorcas will be getting more defense for the majority of the game. 
5 more HP is worse than 3 more defense and I don't think anyone would argue against that and it's before we ever talk about avoid. 

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Now, let's talk about Dorcas's speed, the thing everyone likes to complain about with him. It's not even that bad. He doesn't double, true. However, 1-2 range still means his combat is more efficient than Guy's. His 6 base speed is enough not to get doubled by most enemies even if it never improves. Most enemies in the very last chapters of the game don't even break the 10 AS needed to double base Dorcas. It's even enough to double knights and soldiers, which doesn't sound like a lot but at least Dorcas is 2HKO'ing these enemies while Guy isn't.

Some very fast enemies might double Dorcas, such as myrmidons and mercenaries. However, even even an un-weighed-down Guy isn't doubling those enemies. Dorcas isn't even doubled by nomads until like chapter 17, and unlike Guy he can counter then on enemy phase. You can also just...keep Dorcas out of range of these enemies, which is probably what you'd want to do with Guy too.

Ok, at this point, I have to question if we are talking about the same game. 10 isn't "very fast" for enemies in FE7 and 6 base speed definitely gets you doubled by a large number of enemies like speedy lance cavs and fliers. And the idea that not doubling is okay because he can 1-2 range more often is a little much, just because someone can 1-2 range doesn't mean we should expect less of them in combat. "Even enough to double knights and soldiers" is like saying it's enough to double enemies on the tutorial maps. Doubtful that Guy wouldn't 2HKO a soldier, but maybe the knight you'd have a point if the armorslayer didn't exist. 

Change "might" to "definitely will every time" in the above, in the case of Guy though, an un-weighed down base Guy true, but a couple of levels are going to change that especially when you're saying 10 AS is rare. If Dorcas is getting doubled, I doubt many players are worried about him being able to counter, his life is probably gone if he's being doubled by more than like 2 units. 

 

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Lastly, Dorcas can get Lyn mode levels while Guy cannot. It's a small advantage, but since you have to play through Lyn mode to get all the HHM chapters, it's certainly one Dorcas is likely to have. He can easily get a level or two (not unlikely to yield some strength, skill, and HP) without cutting too much into the EXP pile for your cavaliers.

This whole statement is pretty much irrelevant if we're abiding by the old rules where Lyn Mode is explicitly banned. But you're technically correct. If I have to address it though, even if he gets 2 levels he'll still be behind base Guy in every stat but HP on Hard Mode including defense. 

 

Let me leave you with these thoughts: 

Guy's growths are better than Dorcas' growths based on one thing alone, the stat Guy wants more of (Strength) is at 30%, while the one Dorcas desperately needs more of (Speed) is at a laughable 20% (and this is before we consider who has the advantage in growths overall, that being.... Guy).

Every round of combat you use Dorcas in takes equipment (and exp but irrelevant) from better axe users.

We haven't even got to crits yet. 

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Before I get into crushing your arguments here XD,  I'd just like to thank you @AnonymousSpeed for trying to keep the debate community active and for the invitation! I can already tell this is going to be an interesting one. I plan on being a bit spicier than normal, so I hope I don't offend.

 

It's a pleasure, and don't worry. I try not to take offense even with people who argue Karla is better than Dorcas, as a matter of principle.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

So does Guy, just not as consistently. However, this isn't Sacred Stones. Hand Axes and Tomahawks don't grow on trees.

True, but they do grow in shops. Like, a lot of shops. Like the armories in chapters 13, 16, 18, 21, 24, 26, and 31x.

Dorcas has 1-2 range that might as well be perpetual. Guy's 1-2 range options are Light Brand and Runesword. You get exactly two of the former and exactly one of the latter, neither before Chapter 23. That isn't "not as consistently," that's "barely at all."

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Even if it was true, he'd be stuck with 7 mt hand axes the majority of the game which side bee pretty effectively pegged me on in the Garcia v. Lute debate. 

Even that Hand Axes has 7 strength isn't a massive concern with strength as high as Dorcas has. Let's look at Chapter 23, the very first chapter in which Guy can possibly have a 1-2 range option. Let's say Dorcas has gained around 14 levels, a reasonable number, and has also promoted. This puts him 16 strength, or 23 attack with a hand axe. That's still enough to 2-3 HKO the vast majority of enemies on the map. Even the reasonably bulky sword cavaliers, who have weapon triangle over Dorcas, are 2HKO'd by a Dorcas with a mere two strength above that.

Guy, also promoted and with 14 extra levels, has 14 strength and a weaker, worse weapon type.
This is around the point where Wyvern Riders are added to massive list of lance-wielding enemies your party must contend with.
Dorcas is 2HKO'ing most wyvern riders with Steel Axe, 3HKO'ing all of them with Hand Axe while countering Javelin throwers on enemy phase.
Guy is 3HKO'ing your average rider as well...with a Steel Sword, so good luck dealing with those Javelin tossers.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

More like *drastic* statistical edge. Str +1, Skl +6, Spd +7, Lck +2, Def +3, and Res +1

Strength +1, but axes have more than 1 might over their equivalent sword counterparts. 8 might iron axe versus 5 might iron sword, 11 might steel axe versus 8 might steel sword, 7 might hand axe versus...what, exactly?

Six skill is nice, but I think your assumptions about Dorcas's hit are a bit exaggerated. Let's look at the Steel Bow nomads of the mid-game. Even though they're weighed down, they're still some of the dodgiest enemies you're fighting, and they made a good, triangle-neutral foe to measure Dorcas and Guy against. Assuming they have 18 avoid, our mid-game averages and their performance against them are as follows:
Dorcas with 14 skill and 8 luck, or 92 hit with hand axe (74 displayed / ~87 true hit) and 107 hit with an iron axe (89 displayed / ~98 true hit), hardly a missaholic.

Guy with a Steel Sword, admittedly, faces them with 100 hit. I'll also admit that he doubles them. He does each of these things at 1 range. This means he's attacking half as much as Dorcas (less, really) and half of 100 is 50, markedly below 87.

+2 luck and +1 res aren't even worth boasting about.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Where is he getting this initial hand axe? Bartre? Wouldn't that hand axe be better on Markus in an efficient playthrough? Minor point, but a vulnerary he doesn't start with unlike Guy.

Until well after hand axes are buyable, everything is better on Marcus.

The vulnerary point would be great if this was FE4, but thankfully for Dorcas you can trade items like vulnerabilities pretty easily.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Also, Dorcas *maybe* can 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters, *IF* he can actually hit. With his drastically lower skill, and using axes which are much more inaccurate (especially the hand axe!), I'm betting Guy is far more consistent rounding enemies on enemy phase even without HHM bonuses. 

More like repeat until Dorcas actually hits.

I have already addressed your complaints with Dorcas's accuracy in discussing Guy's hard mode stats.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Not to mention, the prevalence of better axe wielders on your team (Like the aforementioned Hector) means every resource you put towards Dorcas is a resource you took away from those better users of axes. 

You aren't exactly lacking in axe access, though. Why not use two superior units instead of one superior unit and an inferior unit? You aren't limited to just one axe user.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Is his HP stat "monstrous" if it's only 5 HP higher than HHM Guy? His growth rate in HP is also only 5% higher than Guys. This "durability" argument really needs to be examined a bit more.

Going back to this old well again, yes Myrmidons and Swordmasters often are less durable than other classes and thus rely on avoid, but in the case Dorcas V. Guy, Guy has better avoid *and* better defensive stats. At base, at level 10, at level 20, and at promotion. Only late into their promotions does this stop being true, and shouldn't the journey to that late into promotion matter much much more? Also, again, "let your healers be your healers and your fighters be your fighers".  

If Guy's durability is "marginally above" Lyn's I can't imagine what you'll say about a unit with 3 less defense than Guy has.... wait Dorcas has 3 less defense than Guy and you're saying he's more durable.... huh? Average stats on Serenes Forest itself (taking into account hard mode bonuses) can disprove the idea that Dorcas will be getting more defense for the majority of the game. 
5 more HP is worse than 3 more defense and I don't think anyone would argue against that and it's before we ever talk about avoid. 

Let us examine then.

Around Chapter 15, enemies tend to have around 14 attack. Guy is taking 8 damage per hit, so his base 25 HP goes down in four hits, and just one lance user adds the one HP necessary to kill him in three hits. Dorcas is taking a little more damage, but he's got enough HP that his durability matches even if he faces a squad of lancers.

Around Chapter 23, where enemies have about 20 attack and our boys have these stats, based on the aforementioned averages:
Dorcas: 44 HP / 9 Def
Guy: 39 HP / 10 Def
Lance emblem is in full effect by now, so Dorcas is actually taking less damage in many circumstances while having more HP. With each unit taking around 10 damage a hit, Dorcas comes out with more reliable durability by this point.

Around Chapter 28x (i.e nearly end game), we'll assume each has gained 20 levels and promoted.
Dorcas: 49 HP / 11 Def
Guy: 45 HP / 11 Def
Againt, WTA vs. lance users gives Dorcas a slight defensive edge in addition to having superior HP. Enemy attack can vary pretty significantly here, so it's a bit harder to measure hits taken overall. We'll look at individual enemy types instead. Wyvern Riders 3HKO Guy and 4HKO Dorcas. Pegasus Knights 7HKO Guy and 10HKO Dorcas. Steel bow archers 5HKO Guy and 6HKO Dorcas.

***

Now for some more miscellaneous durability points:

Dorcas and Guy have pretty comparable resistance (pretty neck and neck honestly), so HP is more meaningful when taking hits from mages. Dorcas has more HP and can counter hit mages on enemy phase.

Let's also talk how 1-2 range helps Dorcas with damage control, further bolstering his durability and your team's durability. Enemies don't like getting countered, so a 1-range locked Guy is a juicy target to javelin throwers, archers, and mages. Dorcas can discourage enemies from attacking him by actually being able to counter. He also has the option to go 1-range and draw fire if needed. The ability to manipulate how much the enemy wants to attack Dorcas allows you to run better damage control across your entire front line.

***

With regards to healers: Sure, let Dorcas get healed by another unit. He can counter an enemy on their attack and finish them on his own, then hit more counter attacks later, potentially killing a multitude of enemies. Good strategic advice, thank you.

 

21 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

This scenario is pretty much a complete fabrication that disregards the fact that there aren't even Peg Knights in the chapter Guy shows up and the idea you'd force him to use iron only. With base HHM Guy having an extra strength over base Dorcas he'll be hitting for only 1 or two less against these Pegasus Knights

Doesn't mean there aren't frail little pegasus knights in other chapters.

Guy is hitting for less and hitting less often. Any pegasus with a Javelin is one he has to deal with using his single player phase action.

He's probably hitting for more than a couple points less than Dorcas as well. Accounting for weapon triangle, Guy has a 7 might steel sword and Dorcas has an 8 might hand axe, but Dorcas has double Guy's strength growth. That +1 base strength is gone pretty quickly, Dorcas gets a point of strength roughly every two levels instead of roughly every 3-4.

 

21 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes, HHM has tons of lance users to balance things for Hector being your main lord. However, the Lancereaver exists and even without it, with weapon triangle disadvantage Guy is hitting *every* time especially in 2RN, where Dorcas in 2RN still has chances to miss somehow with weapon triangle advantage.

Having to use a Lancereaver means not using a killer weapon, silver weapon or 1-2 range weapon Guy doesn't have. They also aren't exactly common swords, so Guy is still eating WTD most of the time.
Even if he's hitting, it's hurting his dodge chance. Let's, again, take those mid-game stats I laid out earlier. Guy will have 51 - 15 = 36 avoid versus lance wielders. Dorcas will have 26 + 15 = 41 avoid versus lance wielders. So there are a fair share of scenarios where Dorcas is actually out-dodging Guy, further compounded by his flexible range letting him strike from forests even if foes are not adjacent to them.
Further, 2 RN helps Dorcas quite a bit as well. He has a chance to miss but he still hits fairly reliably.

 

21 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Ok, at this point, I have to question if we are talking about the same game. 10 isn't "very fast" for enemies in FE7 and 6 base speed definitely gets you doubled by a large number of enemies like speedy lance cavs and fliers. And the idea that not doubling is okay because he can 1-2 range more often is a little much, just because someone can 1-2 range doesn't mean we should expect less of them in combat. "Even enough to double knights and soldiers" is like saying it's enough to double enemies on the tutorial maps. Doubtful that Guy wouldn't 2HKO a soldier, but maybe the knight you'd have a point if the armorslayer didn't exist. 

So, I looked through the HHM enemy stats thread I posted earlier, and unless it's mistaken, there isn't a single cavalier even on HHM that doubles base Dorcas. Even on chapter 28x, the number of enemies who break 10 AS is like, eleven*. Most of them do so by such a small margin that even Dorcas will have likely gained enough speed to not get doubled by them.

Pegasus Knights get weighed down by lances too much to actually double Dorcas, and wyvern riders lack the speed to double Dorcas even without being weighed down.

Dorcas can one round knights without having to equip a weapon specifically dedicated to knights. This ain't FE6, the Armorslayer isn't a decent general purpose weapon, and it only has double effectiveness anyway.

* - One of those enemies has a poison sword, so go ahead and make your mutton jokes.

 

21 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Change "might" to "definitely will every time" in the above, in the case of Guy though, an un-weighed down base Guy true, but a couple of levels are going to change that especially when you're saying 10 AS is rare. If Dorcas is getting doubled, I doubt many players are worried about him being able to counter, his life is probably gone if he's being doubled by more than like 2 units.

Speedy swordsmen are enemies you'll want to take down from a distance (because swords have pitiful 1-2 range options) or with lances (which neither Guy nor Dorcas can use so it's a mute point). Guy isn't the optimal choice for dealing with the units who double Dorcas either, so failing slightly less doesn't make him that much more useful.

 

21 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

This whole statement is pretty much irrelevant if we're abiding by the old rules where Lyn Mode is explicitly banned. But you're technically correct. If I have to address it though, even if he gets 2 levels he'll still be behind base Guy in every stat but HP on Hard Mode including defense. 

Is it? Wow. That's a bit objectionable, we should change it in our reconsideration of the rules.

 

2 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

We haven't even got to crits yet. 

Yeah, that huge +15 crit bonus is a real reliable, meaningful bonus to combat ability. Dealing triple damage 15% of the time is a real doozy, especially compared to actually dealing damage 90% of the time.

***

Now, to end, I'd like to do more math for showing why 1-2 range > doubling, if one has to choose.

Guy and Dorcas can each take 3 hits, that seems safe to say, so we'll say they jump in range of three enemies. Guy might be killing one or two on enemy phase, but any enemy with a two range option he has to approach, so he's taking an additional turn to clear that squad for every 2-range enemy he faces. Dorcas handles that squad in the same number of turns regardless. He doesn't spend any time getting pecked to death by throwing toothpicks while braiding his hair. Even taking the same number of hits, Dorcas still has a better Blows Dealt to Blows Received ratio than Guy does.

[CannedCaineghis]

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

It's a pleasure, and don't worry. I try not to take offense even with people who argue Karla is better than Dorcas, as a matter of principle.

Yeahhhh those people, yikes. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

True, but they do grow in shops. Like, a lot of shops. Like the armories in chapters 13, 16, 18, 21, 24, 26, and 31x.

Ok, let's assume for a moment that you're buying hand axes every time you shop. They have 20 uses and cost 300 gold a pop. How much money are we spending on hand axes just to give Dorcas "kind of" perpetual 1-2 range? And it isn't like you're saying Dorcas should only have hand axes across all his items slots, since you've already made arguments for him to have a vulnerary and a 1 range weapon to manipulate the way the AI attacks. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Let's look at Chapter 23... Let's say Dorcas has gained around 14 levels, a reasonable number, and has also promoted. This puts him 16 strength, or 23 attack with a hand axe. That's still enough to 2-3 HKO the vast majority of enemies on the map. Even the reasonably bulky sword cavaliers, who have weapon triangle over Dorcas, are 2HKO'd by a Dorcas with a mere two strength above that.

So we give Dorcas 14 levels and a promotion item for him to be able to do something over half way through the game? Not to mention this 14 levels thing seems like an arbitrary number picked only to prove your point. Going to talk more about this, but it's pretty standard in efficient playthroughs to promote as early as possible since it brings the most benefit at the quickest pace. That means only 7 levels for both Guy and Dorcas. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Guy, also promoted and with 14 extra levels, has 14 strength and a weaker, worse weapon type.

Yes, sword locked is worse than axe locked everyone understands this in the community, but it doesn't make or break unit viability. Let's take Raven v. Dorcas for example, Raven is sword locked until hero, but his mercenary combat outpaces a giant portion of the cast for large chunks of the game. Guy is just "Raven-lite" in this scenario and often will be wielding a higher might weapon than hand axes. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is around the point where Wyvern Riders are added to massive list of lance-wielding enemies your party must contend with.

Yes, units have other classes they're naturally weaker against? Wrymslayer and Lancereaver still exist though. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Dorcas is 2HKO'ing most wyvern riders with Steel Axe, 3HKO'ing all of them with Hand Axe while countering Javelin throwers on enemy phase.
Guy is 3HKO'ing your average rider as well...with a Steel Sword, so good luck dealing with those Javelin tossers.

Yeah, unfortunately, every time you switch Dorcas to a 1 range weapon, it takes away a huge advantage of being axe locked so first point is fairly irrelevant. We're also not talking about how many rounds of combat it takes Dorcas to get to 2 or 3 hits in order to KO them. Since well, that Steel Axe technically slightly weights down an unpromoted Dorcas. So often even when he can 1-2 range, he's still having to engage in just as many rounds of combat as Guy is, if not more. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Strength +1, but axes have more than 1 might over their equivalent sword counterparts. 8 might iron axe versus 5 might iron sword, 11 might steel axe versus 8 might steel sword, 7 might hand axe versus...what, exactly?

Every time you reference a 1 range axe, it blows the core of your argument out. I'm considering only the hand axe as your viable weapon since it's 1-2 range is the core of your argument. The other axes don't make your point, some weigh Dorcas down, AND as all axes are they are less accurate than swords. All the other axes with all their power which does exaggerate Dorcas' 1 real strength (his strength), but also shows you his incredible weakness in skill and speed. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Six skill is nice, but I think your assumptions about Dorcas's hit are a bit exaggerated. Let's look at the Steel Bow nomads of the mid-game. Even though they're weighed down, they're still some of the dodgiest enemies you're fighting, and they made a good, triangle-neutral foe to measure Dorcas and Guy against. Assuming they have 18 avoid, our mid-game averages and their performance against them are as follows:
Dorcas with 14 skill and 8 luck, or 92 hit with hand axe (74 displayed / ~87 true hit) and 107 hit with an iron axe (89 displayed / ~98 true hit), hardly a missaholic.

6 skill is the difference between Dorcas base skill being at 1 or 7. Very clear which is better there and how incredibly different those hit chances would be. 

These Dorcas stats are unrealistic for efficient play, assuming you're playing efficiently you should probably promote Dorcas as quickly as possible meaning level 10. So a promoted Dorcas from level 10 would have roughly 12 skill and 6 luck. Turns out his hit chances aren't as good as they're being presented here, at least a bit a missaholic anonymous situation. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

+2 luck and +1 res aren't even worth boasting about.

Hardly boasting, just pointing them out. Especially the Res because Guy's growth rate is higher and hard mode he starts higher, so he'll pretty much always stay higher in this stat than Dorcas. Luck is actually extremely important in the context of durability as well, since you've claimed that Guy is "dodge reliant" "luckily" (please make me lose based on this pun) for me luck increases evasion by 1 for each point of it (and less important for this particular part of my argument hit rate) and Guy stays ahead in this stat throughout the levels with or without hard mode bonuses. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Until well after hand axes are buyable, everything is better on Marcus.

The vulnerary point would be great if this was FE4, but thankfully for Dorcas you can trade items like vulnerabilities pretty easily.

I think we might need to reexamine who the better axe users are in the game before we even consider Dorcas then. 

Word. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I have already addressed your complaints with Dorcas's accuracy in discussing Guy's hard mode stats.

Hardly, as addressed above, the stats you presented for Dorcas were unrealistic given efficient play. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

You aren't exactly lacking in axe access, though. Why not use two superior units instead of one superior unit and an inferior unit? You aren't limited to just one axe user.

Yes exactly! Why not use almost every other axe user over Dorcas and keep Guy for the enemies those axe users struggle against?

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Around Chapter 15, enemies tend to have around 14 attack. Guy is taking 8 damage per hit, so his base 25 HP goes down in four hits, and just one lance user adds the one HP necessary to kill him in three hits. Dorcas is taking a little more damage, but he's got enough HP that his durability matches even if he faces a squad of lancers.

Ok, we're talking base Guy here, so let's talk base Dorcas in this context. "A little more damage" is 3 more damage per hit (totaling our per hit damage to 11), and Dorcas only has 30HP. So, he goes down in.... 3 hits rather than Guy's four, not to mention this appears by your math, to be before considering any sword users coming his way. Even leveling Dorcas up to 10, giving him the grace of 7 levels we aren't giving Guy. He still takes the same number of hits as Guy from an average enemy. This is before we consider Guy's higher evasion, speed, and hit chance. 

Not to mention, you've gone from "Dorcas is more durable than Guy" to "his durability matches" 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Around Chapter 23, where enemies have about 20 attack and our boys have these stats, based on the aforementioned averages:
Dorcas: 44 HP / 9 Def
Guy: 39 HP / 10 Def
Lance emblem is in full effect by now, so Dorcas is actually taking less damage in many circumstances while having more HP. With each unit taking around 10 damage a hit, Dorcas comes out with more reliable durability by this point.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned averages are a bit weird to use on an efficient run, but let's role with them for now, but we should throw luck in the mix here. If Guy has say a 3/10 chance of every hit missing (before we take enemy luck into account) and Dorcas has a 1/10 chance of every hit missing (same) then is it accurate to say Dorcas is statistically more likely to take less damage? 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Around Chapter 28x (i.e nearly end game), we'll assume each has gained 20 levels and promoted.
Dorcas: 49 HP / 11 Def
Guy: 45 HP / 11 Def
Againt, WTA vs. lance users gives Dorcas a slight defensive edge in addition to having superior HP. Enemy attack can vary pretty significantly here, so it's a bit harder to measure hits taken overall. We'll look at individual enemy types instead. Wyvern Riders 3HKO Guy and 4HKO Dorcas. Pegasus Knights 7HKO Guy and 10HKO Dorcas. Steel bow archers 5HKO Guy and 6HKO Dorcas.

Again, see above about Luck. As for everything beyond Wyvern riders, if we're in a position where any character is taking 5+ hits without healing in between, that character is probably dying either way, unless you believe strongly in their evasion/combat overall. 

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Now for some more miscellaneous durability points:

Dorcas and Guy have pretty comparable resistance (pretty neck and neck honestly), so HP is more meaningful when taking hits from mages. Dorcas has more HP and can counter hit mages on enemy phase.

Let's also talk how 1-2 range helps Dorcas with damage control, further bolstering his durability and your team's durability. Enemies don't like getting countered, so a 1-range locked Guy is a juicy target to javelin throwers, archers, and mages. Dorcas can discourage enemies from attacking him by actually being able to counter. He also has the option to go 1-range and draw fire if needed. The ability to manipulate how much the enemy wants to attack Dorcas allows you to run better damage control across your entire front line.

Comparable in a way that Guy will on average have ~2.25 more Res (or greater) than Dorcas throughout almost all their level ups beyond initial base stats and some earlier levels. So hard to say HP matters more especially when attacked by multiple mages of varying magic and speed stats. 

Kind of addressed this manipulating the enemy argument earlier, but a 1-range locked unit like Guy, can still very easily manipulate the AI to target him away from other vulnerable, weaker 1-2 / 2 range allies.... like say, Dorcas. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

With regards to healers: Sure, let Dorcas get healed by another unit. He can counter an enemy on their attack and finish them on his own, then hit more counter attacks later, potentially killing a multitude of enemies. Good strategic advice, thank you.

 Change this to "potentially damage" a multitude of enemies since he will almost never double throughout most of the game.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

He's probably hitting for more than a couple points less than Dorcas as well. Accounting for weapon triangle, Guy has a 7 might steel sword and Dorcas has an 8 might hand axe, but Dorcas has double Guy's strength growth. That +1 base strength is gone pretty quickly, Dorcas gets a point of strength roughly every two levels instead of roughly every 3-4.

 Yes, but you see, when you hit twice almost every combat instead of once almost every combat. You end up doing double the damage! So even if Guy hits for say, 15 damage at a time when Dorcas hits for 25; Guy does more actual damage. Not to mention, even if this wasn't true Guy has a secret weapon to combat this that we'll get too...

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Having to use a Lancereaver means not using a killer weapon, silver weapon or 1-2 range weapon Guy doesn't have. They also aren't exactly common swords, so Guy is still eating WTD most of the time.
Even if he's hitting, it's hurting his dodge chance. Let's, again, take those mid-game stats I laid out earlier. Guy will have 51 - 15 = 36 avoid versus lance wielders. Dorcas will have 26 + 15 = 41 avoid versus lance wielders. So there are a fair share of scenarios where Dorcas is actually out-dodging Guy, further compounded by his flexible range letting him strike from forests even if foes are not adjacent to them.
Further, 2 RN helps Dorcas quite a bit as well. He has a chance to miss but he still hits fairly reliably.

This post is interesting, mentioning killing weapons when you later on dismiss a 15% crit chance, huh. 

Again, these stats are inaccurate to efficient play, so not sure what to even say to this that I haven't already, but comparing only the people Guy has a disadvantage in combat with that Dorcas has an advantage in combat with is pretty misleading in general about who is pretty at evasion in general. Yes lance wielders are common, but far from the only unit in the game still. 

If we're trying to mitigate RNG in general in any run let alone efficiently, any chance to miss is near unacceptable especially in 2 RN. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

So, I looked through the HHM enemy stats thread I posted earlier, and unless it's mistaken, there isn't a single cavalier even on HHM that doubles base Dorcas. Even on chapter 28x, the number of enemies who break 10 AS is like, eleven*. Most of them do so by such a small margin that even Dorcas will have likely gained enough speed to not get doubled by them.

Yeah, this I have to say was me misunderstanding (slash being blind). I thought you were saying units with 10 speed were rare, when you were talking about AS. Which is incredibly different. However, even in this argument it nearly locks Dorcas to the lighter axes for the entire game to mitigate the chance of being doubled. And with his laughable 20% speed growth, who knows. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Dorcas can one round knights without having to equip a weapon specifically dedicated to knights. This ain't FE6, the Armorslayer isn't a decent general purpose weapon, and it only has double effectiveness anyway.

 Guy doesn't necessarily need an Armorslayer either, I'm just pointing to a near guaranteed option for him if the issue comes up. After all, crit chance exists. But we aren't there yet. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

* - One of those enemies has a poison sword, so go ahead and make your mutton jokes.

I would never joke about something as serious as.... XD

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Speedy swordsmen are enemies you'll want to take down from a distance (because swords have pitiful 1-2 range options) or with lances (which neither Guy nor Dorcas can use so it's a mute point). Guy isn't the optimal choice for dealing with the units who double Dorcas either, so failing slightly less doesn't make him that much more useful.

Speedy swordsmen being taking down from a distance by who? Not Dorcas, he'd miss, never double, and then be killed by them on enemy phase. Archers? Not a possibility if you care about unit quality or turn count. So yes lance users with Javelins or mages. OR if you're in need of them elsewhere you get another tactical option in Guy who can at the very least trade one for one and at the most outright kill these opponents. You can't say the same in this situation for Dorcas. Making Guy much more useful. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Is it? Wow. That's a bit objectionable, we should change it in our reconsideration of the rules.

Yeah in the original rules. However,  I believe the original rule creator Mekkah had decent logic behind it that goes something like this (if he ever sees this or anyone familiar with the time period sees this and wants to correct me please do): Every unit can be good with grinding, so things like arena abuse are out, which also causes Lyn mode to be out since it's essentially a tutorial of the game which makes later chapters easier because it allows you to grind. Lyn mode causes units like Kent and Sain (who are already good) to completely outshine (/ make look like poop) a really good unit like Lowen just because they got 8 extra chapters to grind. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Yeah, that huge +15 crit bonus is a real reliable, meaningful bonus to combat ability. Dealing triple damage 15% of the time is a real doozy, especially compared to actually dealing damage 90% of the time.

Well, it isn't like he doesn't deal damage the other 85% of the time (it also isn't like he'll *only* have that 15% so it's a bit higher than I'm presenting later in this comment) 

He'll often be dealing *at least* the same amount as Dorcas thanks to his decent strength and ability to double. Crit chance just gives him a 3/10 chance of doing triple damage on 1 of his 2 hits in a round of combat. Going from *at least* the same amount as Dorcas, to "way more than Dorcas can ever do statistically". 

If you think +15 crit isn't huge, let's do a romhack of FE7 and I'll give EVERY enemy +15 to crit on hard mode. Let me know how it goes. 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Now, to end, I'd like to do more math for showing why 1-2 range > doubling, if one has to choose.

Guy and Dorcas can each take 3 hits, that seems safe to say, so we'll say they jump in range of three enemies. Guy might be killing one or two on enemy phase, but any enemy with a two range option he has to approach, so he's taking an additional turn to clear that squad for every 2-range enemy he faces. Dorcas handles that squad in the same number of turns regardless. He doesn't spend any time getting pecked to death by throwing toothpicks while braiding his hair. Even taking the same number of hits, Dorcas still has a better Blows Dealt to Blows Received ratio than Guy does.

Yes they *can* both take 3 hits, but who is *more likely* to take those hits? And no, if Dorcas doesn't double and Guy does, it'll almost certainly end up taking them the same number of turns as Dorcas will either have to wait to counter again or will need to engage on player phase himself just like Guy. 

I don't think this last statement is accurate especially when you consider real hit and avoid. 

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yeahhhh those people, yikes. 

They probably play Heroes.

Sit down gets, get a nice glass of milk, and get comfortable. It's story time.

***

CHAPTER 18 DORCAS: THINGS TANGENTIALLY RELAYED TO AXES VS SWORDS

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Ok, let's assume for a moment that you're buying hand axes every time you shop. They have 20 uses and cost 300 gold a pop. How much money are we spending on hand axes just to give Dorcas "kind of" perpetual 1-2 range? And it isn't like you're saying Dorcas should only have hand axes across all his items slots, since you've already made arguments for him to have a vulnerary and a 1 range weapon to manipulate the way the AI attacks. 

That's not all that expensive, really.

Dorcas hardly needs 100 uses of hand axe to handle himself. A full sized army isn't going to leave it to one unit to knock out fifty enemies, even if that unit is Dorcas.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes, sword locked is worse than axe locked everyone understands this in the community, but it doesn't make or break unit viability. Let's take Raven v. Dorcas for example, Raven is sword locked until hero, but his mercenary combat outpaces a giant portion of the cast for large chunks of the game. Guy is just "Raven-lite" in this scenario and often will be wielding a higher might weapon than hand axes. 

Worse Raven =/= Better than Dorcas, nor does it negate the disadvantages of being sword locked just because Raven handles it better.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

I think we might need to reexamine who the better axe users are in the game before we even consider Dorcas then. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes exactly! Why not use almost every other axe user over Dorcas and keep Guy for the enemies those axe users struggle against?

This isn't a Dorcas vs another axe user debate. This is a Dorcas vs Guy debate.

The existence of a unit better than Dorcas does not imply that Guy is also better than Dorcas.

Honestly, if we're going to argue that "better axe users" invalidate Dorcas, we might as well throw Guy out the window because Raven massively outclasses him, Marcus wields swords better than axes, and every cavalier can use swords (before promotion) in addition to all the advantages their classes entail.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yeah, unfortunately, every time you switch Dorcas to a 1 range weapon, it takes away a huge advantage of being axe locked so first point is fairly irrelevant. We're also not talking about how many rounds of combat it takes Dorcas to get to 2 or 3 hits in order to KO them. Since well, that Steel Axe technically slightly weights down an unpromoted Dorcas. So often even when he can 1-2 range, he's still having to engage in just as many rounds of combat as Guy is, if not more. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Every time you reference a 1 range axe, it blows the core of your argument out. I'm considering only the hand axe as your viable weapon since it's 1-2 range is the core of your argument.

More options is never a bad thing in terms of strategic value. Dorcas can choose between 1-2 range or a more effective 1-range, Guy doesn't get to choose between those options.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

The other axes don't make your point, some weigh Dorcas down, AND as all axes are they are less accurate than swords. All the other axes with all their power which does exaggerate Dorcas' 1 real strength (his strength), but also shows you his incredible weakness in skill and speed. 

Some meaning Steel Axe, which weighs him down by like one. I will address hit rate issues later in this post. Guy's overkill skill isn't as large of an advantage as you're making it out to be, considering the poor enemy avoid in this game and the prevalence of lance users.

 

CHAPTER 20xx DORCAS: EXPERIENCE DISTRIBUTION

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

So we give Dorcas 14 levels and a promotion item for him to be able to do something over half way through the game? Not to mention this 14 levels thing seems like an arbitrary number picked only to prove your point. Going to talk more about this, but it's pretty standard in efficient playthroughs to promote as early as possible since it brings the most benefit at the quickest pace. That means only 7 levels for both Guy and Dorcas. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

These Dorcas stats are unrealistic for efficient play, assuming you're playing efficiently you should probably promote Dorcas as quickly as possible meaning level 10. So a promoted Dorcas from level 10 would have roughly 12 skill and 6 luck. Turns out his hit chances aren't as good as they're being presented here, at least a bit a missaholic anonymous situation. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Hardly, as addressed above, the stats you presented for Dorcas were unrealistic given efficient play.

It's not like you stop gaining experience after you promote though.

The number was specifically chosen, well...to be honest it was because Guy and Dorcas had their averages pretty close to whole numbers with that number of levels, but it also was based on the idea you'd get each unit about one level a chapter. This actually gives Guy a slight advantage, since he joins a little later than Dorcas at the same level. It is thus assumed he had slightly larger EXP gain than Dorcas had, and he still is comparable at best.

 

CHAPTER 23 DORCAS: DURABILITY, DODGING, ACTUAL USE OF +1 IN A STAT AND CONSISTENCY

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Ok, we're talking base Guy here, so let's talk base Dorcas in this context. "A little more damage" is 3 more damage per hit (totaling our per hit damage to 11), and Dorcas only has 30HP. So, he goes down in.... 3 hits rather than Guy's four, not to mention this appears by your math, to be before considering any sword users coming his way. Even leveling Dorcas up to 10, giving him the grace of 7 levels we aren't giving Guy. He still takes the same number of hits as Guy from an average enemy.

Yeah, but 3 extra defense isn't super useful if you're getting killed in the same number of hits. An additional point of defense is most useful when your defense is already high, which isn't exactly the case for either unit.

Again, Guy only takes an extra hit if he fights any lance users, which are considerably more common than myrmidons or anything of that sword.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Not to mention, you've gone from "Dorcas is more durable than Guy" to "his durability matches" 

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

Besides, while their durability matches early on, Dorcas ends up able to take more hits as the game progresses, see my 28x analysis.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

This is before we consider Guy's higher evasion, speed, and hit chance. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Unfortunately, the aforementioned averages are a bit weird to use on an efficient run, but let's role with them for now, but we should throw luck in the mix here. If Guy has say a 3/10 chance of every hit missing (before we take enemy luck into account) and Dorcas has a 1/10 chance of every hit missing (same) then is it accurate to say Dorcas is statistically more likely to take less damage?

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes they *can* both take 3 hits, but who is *more likely* to take those hits?

True, Dorcas is more likely to get hit, so he takes more damage overall over several rounds of combat. However, less total damage doesn't translate to better concrete survivability, because Dorcas can still survive more blows landing.
If Guy dies to four hits which each have a 7/10 chance of hitting (assuming I'm understanding you right), that's a 24.01% chance he explodes.
Meanwhile, if Dorcas dies to five hits and gets hit by all four of those incoming attacks...he still survives.

Here's a good statement to refute the dodging argument: Consistently good enough is better than inconsistently more than enough.

If Dorcas has such bad avoid, yet can have higher avoid against lance users...what does that say about Guy?

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Hardly boasting, just pointing them out. Especially the Res because Guy's growth rate is higher and hard mode he starts higher, so he'll pretty much always stay higher in this stat than Dorcas.

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Comparable in a way that Guy will on average have ~2.25 more Res (or greater) than Dorcas throughout almost all their level ups beyond initial base stats and some earlier levels. So hard to say HP matters more especially when attacked by multiple mages of varying magic and speed stats. 

Guy has, as you pointed out, +1 base resistance on hard mode and a 10% better growth. With such low resistance as these units have, a little extra isn't worth much.

Imagine a unit with 35 HP and facing enemies with 20 magical attack. If the unit has 5 resistance, they can take three hits. To increase to surviving four hits, you'll need six extra resistance.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Luck is actually extremely important in the context of durability as well, since you've claimed that Guy is "dodge reliant" "luckily" (please make me lose based on this pun) for me luck increases evasion by 1 for each point of it (and less important for this particular part of my argument hit rate) and Guy stays ahead in this stat throughout the levels with or without hard mode bonuses.

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Again, see above about Luck. As for everything beyond Wyvern riders, if we're in a position where any character is taking 5+ hits without healing in between, that character is probably dying either way, unless you believe strongly in their evasion/combat overall.

One luck equals +1 avoid, which isn't an absurd amount and certainly doesn't give Guy such good avoid that he doesn't need to worry about incoming attacks.
Even if Guy and Dorcas are at 20/20, Guy has a luck lead of...4-ish.

I have shown there are a couple places where Dorcas can take more than five hits, but I'll throw you a bone. You should keep your units well healed, but...if you're keeping your units well healed and not exposing them to 5+ attacks each turn, then...what good are these durability advantages Guy has? Whether Dorcas or Guy, you heal up and move forward.

 

CHAPTER 26 DORCAS: HIT RATES, AGAIN

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

6 skill is the difference between Dorcas base skill being at 1 or 7. Very clear which is better there and how incredibly different those hit chances would be. 

If 7 skill is enough, what's the point of having six more?

Imagine that a unit has enough strength to 2HKO basically every enemy. Yeah, there might be a rare few that survive such consecutive blows and wouldn't if the unit had a little more strength, but ultimately a few more strength doesn't increase the unit's usefulness that much (unless they're now one-hit-KO'ing but skill can't give you 101% hit or anything). They still kill most enemies in two hits. Dorcas is still hitting consistently.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Change this to "potentially damage" a multitude of enemies since he will almost never double throughout most of the game.

*definitely damage, see: all my talk about Dorcas having sufficient hit.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

If we're trying to mitigate RNG in general in any run let alone efficiently, any chance to miss is near unacceptable especially in 2 RN. 

Why "especially in 2 RN" ? Dorcas has above 50% hit basically all the time, so his true hit is always better than his displayed hit. In single RN, a 13% chance to miss (once every 7-8 attacks) might actually become an inconvenience, but an 87% is really a 96.75% (one miss every 33 battles or so).

Consistency is good, as stated above. However, the difference between Dorcas's hit and Guy's dodge is that Dorcas's hit is backed by reliable numbers.

Also, failing to hit and an enemy surviving is able to be worked with. Failing to dodge and then dying is not.

 

CHAPTER 28x DORCAS: ENEMIES AND WEAPONS

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

So hard to say HP matters more especially when attacked by multiple mages of varying magic and speed stats. 

I based my assumptions on the highest possible variant of enemy stats.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Kind of addressed this manipulating the enemy argument earlier, but a 1-range locked unit like Guy, can still very easily manipulate the AI to target him away from other vulnerable, weaker 1-2 / 2 range allies.... like say, Dorcas. 

Thing is, Guy is going to draw 2 range attacks basically always because of swordlock.

If he's in range of such an enemy, you can be quite sure they won't even take damage on that enemy phase.

Yeah, he can draw fire, but unlike Dorcas he can't turn that off.

If you want to actually counter hit enemies with ranged attacks, you can't have Guy in there range. This is a disadvantage you wouldn't have if you weren't using Guy, but instead a solid 1-2 range unit...like say, Dorcas.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Again, these stats are inaccurate to efficient play, so not sure what to even say to this that I haven't already, but comparing only the people Guy has a disadvantage in combat with that Dorcas has an advantage in combat with is pretty misleading in general about who is pretty at evasion in general. Yes lance wielders are common, but far from the only unit in the game still.

Guy is very pretty at evasion, yes.

Lance users are not the only enemies, yes.

However, they are extremely common enemies, easily the most common physical enemies, sometimes making up 40+% of the enemies on the map.

Of the remaining enemies, a fair number are magic users against whom HP is more useful than +2 on top of pitiful resistance.

The point is that if Guy and Dorcas aren't neutral with their enemy, the former is usually at an disadvantage and the latter at an advantage. I compare them in these unfair states because they are very common states for them to be in.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes, units have other classes they're naturally weaker against? Wrymslayer and Lancereaver still exist though. 

The classes which Guy is weaker against are not only more prevalent than the classes he's strong against, they're also classes Dorcas is strong against.

Dorcas has consistent access to WTA over lance users without having to use a Lancereaver. Admittedly, you can buy those- at like one armory in the whole game.
You can also get swordreavers there and Dorcas is suddenly fairing much better against those speedy swordies. He even 1HKO's a good number of the unpromoted ones AND gains +30 to the hit and avoid you think so highly of when Guy has it.

No doubt the lancereaver is better for Guy than the swordreaver for Dorcas though. Reaver weapons help Guy overcome an issue which he'll struggle consistently across the game, but the issues they alleviate for Dorcas come up much less often.

 

As for Wyrmslayers, you get one of them.

Since the wyrmslayer is not a reaver weapon, Guy has to choose between high avoid versus wyvern units or dealing severe-ish damage (x2 effectiveness and all), so these are partial fixes at best.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yeah, this I have to say was me misunderstanding (slash being blind). I thought you were saying units with 10 speed were rare, when you were talking about AS. Which is incredibly different. However, even in this argument it nearly locks Dorcas to the lighter axes for the entire game to mitigate the chance of being doubled. And with his laughable 20% speed growth, who knows. 

Yeah, sorry about that misunderstanding.

Lighter axes? With 14 base con? I don't think so.

Furthermore, a 20% speed growth is +1 speed every 5 (count 'em, not very many) levels, on average. By the time enemies start breaking 11 AS somewhat semi-frequently, Dorcas will have gained more than 10 levels and thus even his pitiful growth protects him from the times two.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Guy doesn't necessarily need an Armorslayer either, I'm just pointing to a near guaranteed option for him if the issue comes up.

And you're going to complain about Dorcas's inventory getting crowded by hand axes, but then have Guy lug around a big, highly situational armorslayer which has even fewer uses?

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Speedy swordsmen being taking down from a distance by who? Not Dorcas, he'd miss, never double, and then be killed by them on enemy phase. Archers? Not a possibility if you care about unit quality or turn count. So yes lance users with Javelins or mages. OR if you're in need of them elsewhere you get another tactical option in Guy who can at the very least trade one for one and at the most outright kill these opponents. You can't say the same in this situation for Dorcas. Making Guy much more useful.

Alright, fair enough. Guy breaks even against an uncommon enemy type which Dorcas looses too.

However, "better some of the time" does not mean "much more useful." Guy needs to be better most of the time, which he is not.

 

CHAPTER 20XX AD: LYN MODE AND CRITICAL HITS

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yeah in the original rules. However,  I believe the original rule creator Mekkah had decent logic behind it that goes something like this (if he ever sees this or anyone familiar with the time period sees this and wants to correct me please do): Every unit can be good with grinding, so things like arena abuse are out, which also causes Lyn mode to be out since it's essentially a tutorial of the game which makes later chapters easier because it allows you to grind. Lyn mode causes units like Kent and Sain (who are already good) to completely outshine (/ make look like poop) a really good unit like Lowen just because they got 8 extra chapters to grind. 

True, but, you know...them's the breaks, and certain units get availability advantages, just like Lowen has over Geitz.

If the game is going to lock HHM content behind Lyn Mode, I think we should assume Lyn mode. Like, what if you needed to play Lyn's tale in order to recruit Farina? I imagine there wouldn't even be a question, we'd assume you play through it.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

This post is interesting, mentioning killing weapons when you later on dismiss a 15% crit chance, huh. 

15 is half of 30, and Killer Weapons have decent stats all around, even beyond their crit chance.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Well, it isn't like he doesn't deal damage the other 85% of the time (it also isn't like he'll *only* have that 15% so it's a bit higher than I'm presenting later in this comment) 

Not only 15% crit, but only +15% crit compared to what he normally has. That obviously wasn't enough of an advantage for you to bring up independently of the Swordmaster bonus, so I assumed we agreed it was negligible. Two negligible things together are not necessarily a substantial thing.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Crit chance just gives him a 3/10 chance of doing triple damage on 1 of his 2 hits in a round of combat. Going from *at least* the same amount as Dorcas, to "way more than Dorcas can ever do statistically". 

Gambling isn't cool, kids. If your strategy depends on getting a 30% critical, then if has a 49% chance to fail. He is statistically doing a lot of damage with those crits, but one crit every four attacks does not mean a crit on an attack where you actually need it.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

If you think +15 crit isn't huge, let's do a romhack of FE7 and I'll give EVERY enemy +15 to crit on hard mode. Let me know how it goes. 

That's an unfair comparison- Guy is one unit with a +15% critical hit chance, which is quite different from 30+ units with a +15% critical hit chance.

Take ( 1 - 0.15 ) = 0.85 vs. (0.85)^15 to see how vastly different those two scenarios really are.

 

EPILOGUE: OUR FINAL CLOSING REMARKS

Spoiler

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

And no, if Dorcas doesn't double and Guy does, it'll almost certainly end up taking them the same number of turns as Dorcas will either have to wait to counter again or will need to engage on player phase himself just like Guy. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

He'll often be dealing *at least* the same amount as Dorcas thanks to his decent strength and ability to double. 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

Yes, but you see, when you hit twice almost every combat instead of once almost every combat. You end up doing double the damage! So even if Guy hits for say, 15 damage at a time when Dorcas hits for 25; Guy does more actual damage. Not to mention, even if this wasn't true Guy has a secret weapon to combat this that we'll get too...

Guy will be dealing some decent damage...to one enemy.

Player phase combat is just worse than mixed / enemy phase combat, because player phase combat is effectively one action while enemy phase combat is several.

Guy's 1-range lock might not be as severe as archers' 2-range lock, but it's a similar issue. He can do more than enough against one enemy, rather than good enough against several.

Dorcas is taking, at most, 3 turns to clear a field of enemies, as long as he survives them all, which we've shown he's able to do.

Guy's clear time will be equal to the number of ranged enemies he faces, no matter how good he is at not getting killed by them. He's getting attacked by enemies that could instead be getting counter attacked and killed and removed from the equation of threatening other units, like the healers you'll want to be keeping front line fighters healthy.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

I don't think this last statement is accurate especially when you consider real hit and avoid. 

The reason Dorcas has a better Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratio isn't because of hit rates, which I am a little done with saying are good for Dorcas (especially considering this is my last post). The reason is because, of course, 1-2 range. Each 2 range foe increases Guy's "received" counter without increasing his "dealt" counter, while both go up for Dorcas.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, CannedCaineghis said:

I would never joke about something as serious as.... XD

Yes you would. You're laughing right now.

***

Anyway, good debate. I hope my way of organizing this last post was helpful in understanding it and cleaning up the flow of the argument. Send us off, my friend.

[CannedCaineghis]

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

hope my way of organizing this last post was helpful in understanding it and cleaning up the flow of the argument. 

It definitely cleaned up the page and organized it, but practically it just made you harder to quote. 

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Worse Raven =/= Better than Dorcas, nor does it negate the disadvantages of being sword locked just because Raven handles it better.

This isn't a Dorcas vs another axe user debate. This is a Dorcas vs Guy debate.

 

To the fist. Slightly worse Raven definitely equals better than Dorcas. And this isn't a "swords vs. axes" debate either; everyone understands axes are better because of more consistent 1-2 range. It's a Dorcas v. Guy debate like you point out. Assuming they had the same weapon type, would *ANY* of your arguments hold up? 

The other point, it's critical in every debate to think about where the resources the game provides are going. So every debate a unit must be able to argue against those resources going to similar users. 

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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The existence of a unit better than Dorcas does not imply that Guy is also better than Dorcas.

Honestly, if we're going to argue that "better axe users" invalidate Dorcas, we might as well throw Guy out the window because Raven massively outclasses him, Marcus wields swords better than axes, and every cavalier can use swords (before promotion) in addition to all the advantages their classes entail.

 

To the first point, it does when Guy compares more favorably to the unit that is already established as better than Dorcas. That's like... the whole point of a tier list?

Since you didn't address the better axe users yourself, I was thinking of not responding to this, but I will. First, Raven also massively outclasses Dorcas since Raven can uses hand axes on promotion, so that's a wash. All cavs will one day use axes and outperform Dorcas with them, so another wash in the debate. Guy can outperform many people that also use only swords, such as: Karla, Matthew, Legault, Lyn, Eliwood (before he can use a horse because that's op), arguably Karel and Jaffar. Can the same be said for a single better axe user when it comes to Dorcas? Maybe, just maybe, Bartre? But Dart, Hawkeye, Geitz, and obviously Hector, all of them I'd argue outperform Dorcas. 

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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More options is never a bad thing in terms of strategic value. Dorcas can choose between 1-2 range or a more effective 1-range, Guy doesn't get to choose between those options.

Some meaning Steel Axe, which weighs him down by like one. 

 

It is when your other option invalidates your base argument? If he goes into 1 range, he's just a less accurate, slower (and therefore less damaging) unit than Guy with less avoid or true durability.

More like some meaning: Steel Axe, Brave Axe (and with the 2 speed he loses here he nearly negates the point of a Brave weapon), Devil Axe, Halberd, and the Hammer. 

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Yeah, but 3 extra defense isn't super useful if you're getting killed in the same number of hits. An additional point of defense is most useful when your defense is already high, which isn't exactly the case for either unit.

Again, Guy only takes an extra hit if he fights any lance users, which are considerably more common than myrmidons or anything of that sword.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

Besides, while their durability matches early on, Dorcas ends up able to take more hits as the game progresses, see my 28x analysis.

 

The first point we covered already. A combination of a higher stat plus a higher avoid means most of the time Guy will take *more* hits and when it isn't it's the same number Dorcas does.

Guy takes an extra hit fighting any lance users? I felt like you meant to say he gets killed faster against lance users, but it doesn't read that way.

Stonks!

One, we already know your commitment to that durability argument isn't as rigid as you'd have us believe but I think I've covered above enough to show Guy is more durable early on, mid game and possibly even early late game. Yeah man, a 28x analysis, too bad there are like.... 2/3 of the chapters in the game before that in which we have to compare Guy and Dorcas. 

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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True, Dorcas is more likely to get hit, so he takes more damage overall over several rounds of combat. However, less total damage doesn't translate to better concrete survivability, because Dorcas can still survive more blows landing.
If Guy dies to four hits which each have a 7/10 chance of hitting (assuming I'm understanding you right), that's a 24.01% chance he explodes.
Meanwhile, if Dorcas dies to five hits and gets hit by all four of those incoming attacks...he still survives.

Here's a good statement to refute the dodging argument: Consistently good enough is better than inconsistently more than enough.

If Dorcas has such bad avoid, yet can have higher avoid against lance users...what does that say about Guy?

 

 Didn't we already cover that Guy takes either the same number of blows, or *more* than Dorcas does for the majority of the game?

This 24.01% of "explosion" is still lower than Dorcas chance. Didn't we just cover the hits argument? Re-presenting as less accurate doesn't change it. 

The "good statement" there implies Guy is already "consistently good enough" and just happens to have the *bonus* of being inconsistently more than enough, which I'd take over someone without that bonus every day of the weak.

Yeah, he has worse avoid than Guy except when he has WTA. Which means he has worse avoid is even further exacerbated when his opponent has WTA. A detail you're glossing over... what does that say about Dorcas?

23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Guy has, as you pointed out, +1 base resistance on hard mode and a 10% better growth. With such low resistance as these units have, a little extra isn't worth much.

Imagine a unit with 35 HP and facing enemies with 20 magical attack. If the unit has 5 resistance, they can take three hits. To increase to surviving four hits, you'll need six extra resistance.

 

Yeah, this argument still ignores who is more likely to be doubled by those incoming magical attacks. Hint.... his name starts with D and has the group of animals "Orcas" in his name. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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One luck equals +1 avoid, which isn't an absurd amount and certainly doesn't give Guy such good avoid that he doesn't need to worry about incoming attacks.
Even if Guy and Dorcas are at 20/20, Guy has a luck lead of...4-ish.

I have shown there are a couple places where Dorcas can take more than five hits, but I'll throw you a bone. You should keep your units well healed, but...if you're keeping your units well healed and not exposing them to 5+ attacks each turn, then...what good are these durability advantages Guy has? Whether Dorcas or Guy, you heal up and move forward.

 

Yeah, that luck lead still translates to a avoid lead though. Point Guy. 

Ah here we go! Exactly my point before I had to dismiss your durability arguments. I don't particularly care that Guy has a durability advantage, I was only proving that Dorcas didn't have it. Since I see most debates as "accumulating points" in your units favor. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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If 7 skill is enough, what's the point of having six more?

Imagine that a unit has enough strength to 2HKO basically every enemy. Yeah, there might be a rare few that survive such consecutive blows and wouldn't if the unit had a little more strength, but ultimately a few more strength doesn't increase the unit's usefulness that much (unless they're now one-hit-KO'ing but skill can't give you 101% hit or anything). They still kill most enemies in two hits. 

 

What's the point of having 7 more skill? (assuming for a moment 7 skill is enough to consistently hit, which I think most people would dismiss in situations without WTA) This handy little calculation is the point Critical Rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill/2) + Support bonus + Crit bonus + S rank bonus. So 6 more points translates to effectively 3 more crit. And obviously it's even more important in the accuracy equation. 

Yeah, but skill *can* and does increase crit. So you don't get a 101% hit chance, but does give you a higher chance of a one-hit-KO that you ranted about above. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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*definitely damage, see: all my talk about Dorcas having sufficient hit.

 

Yeah, maybe he can hit, but the quote you're responding to with this quote is saying he doesn't double. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Why "especially in 2 RN" ? Dorcas has above 50% hit basically all the time, so his true hit is always better than his displayed hit. In single RN, a 13% chance to miss (once every 7-8 attacks) might actually become an inconvenience, but an 87% is really a 96.75% (one miss every 33 battles or so).

Consistency is good, as stated above. However, the difference between Dorcas's hit and Guy's dodge is that Dorcas's hit is backed by reliable numbers.

Also, failing to hit and an enemy surviving is able to be worked with. Failing to dodge and then dying is not.

 

"especially in 2 RN" Because it's ridiculously easy for most units to always have an effectively 100% hit rate in it, so units that don't really have to work their way out of that disadvantage.

Comparing Dorcas hit to Guy's dodge is pretty weird when I'm only trying to compare Dorcas' hit to Guy's hit and Dorcas' dodge to Guy's dodge?

See above? Compare the relevant stat to the relevant stat. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Guy is very pretty at evasion, yes.

Lance users are not the only enemies, yes.

However, they are extremely common enemies, easily the most common physical enemies, sometimes making up 40+% of the enemies on the map.

Of the remaining enemies, a fair number are magic users against whom HP is more useful than +2 on top of pitiful resistance.

The point is that if Guy and Dorcas aren't neutral with their enemy, the former is usually at an disadvantage and the latter at an advantage. I compare them in these unfair states because they are very common states for them to be in.

 

I tried to edit that on literally seconds after I posted and serenes told me my post was locked or something, so yes Guy pretty at evasion XD

40+% implies the majority of enemies are in fact not lances users.

I still disagree with your assessment that higher HP is better than a full two points in the relevant defensive stat especially when the HP stats don't differ that greatly for quite awhile.

This last point is just baffling to me. You control where your units go, the majority of the time your unit will have the advantage against who they face because you plan it to be that way. In which case, Guy outperforms Dorcas if we're going off of what is most common of a state.

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Dorcas has consistent access to WTA over lance users without having to use a Lancereaver. Admittedly, you can buy those- at like one armory in the whole game.
You can also get swordreavers there and Dorcas is suddenly fairing much better against those speedy swordies. He even 1HKO's a good number of the unpromoted ones AND gains +30 to the hit and avoid you think so highly of when Guy has it.

No doubt the lancereaver is better for Guy than the swordreaver for Dorcas though.

 

 Yeah, CH 24, long before 28x where Dorcas is supposed to become the unstoppable killer you've been saying XD. So you can stock up on them and alleviate any issues that may come up WTA wise. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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As for Wyrmslayers, you get one of them. Since the wyrmslayer is not a reaver weapon, Guy has to choose between high avoid versus wyvern units or dealing severe-ish damage (x2 effectiveness and all), so these are partial fixes at best.

Yeah, sorry about that misunderstanding.

Lighter axes? With 14 base con? I don't think so.

 

Yeah, I'm not recommending Wyrmslayers, I'm just pointing out that the game thought of a balance for those kinds of matchups already.

Totally my bad. Covered the axes above. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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And you're going to complain about Dorcas's inventory getting crowded by hand axes, but then have Guy lug around a big, highly situational armorslayer which has even fewer uses?

 

Well, you see the thing is, we have the "view map" function before deployment, so Guy only needs to ever have the Armorslayer in his inventory when you can clearly see a need for it. The same can't be said for the hand axes since it's your arguments "default" weapon. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Alright, fair enough. Guy breaks even against an uncommon enemy type which Dorcas looses too.

However, "better some of the time" does not mean "much more useful." Guy needs to be better most of the time, which he is not.

 

Like I said above, real arguments are won in increments. Even performing better against an "uncommon enemy" type is a point in Guy's favor. 

"Better some of the time" while according to your arguments so far "at parity" the rest of the time does mean "much more useful". But Guy already is better for the majority of the game, just statistically speaking. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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True, but, you know...them's the breaks, and certain units get availability advantages, just like Lowen has over Geitz.

If the game is going to lock HHM content behind Lyn Mode, I think we should assume Lyn mode. Like, what if you needed to play Lyn's tale in order to recruit Farina? I imagine there wouldn't even be a question, we'd assume you play through it.

 

 I don't think efficient play really cares that much about trying to get "all content" done, it's like the difference between an any% speedrun and an all bosses% speedrun. I think perhaps we should ask side bee what he thinks and anyone else who is wanting to be more involved in the debate community their opinions on allowing it, but I'm still with Mekkah myself. (Maybe we should even have a debate on Lyn Mode v. No Lyn Mode)

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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15 is half of 30, and Killer Weapons have decent stats all around, even beyond their crit chance.

 

Not only 15% crit, but only +15% crit compared to what he normally has. That obviously wasn't enough of an advantage for you to bring up independently of the Swordmaster bonus, so I assumed we agreed it was negligible. Two negligible things together are not necessarily a substantial thing.

 

Yes, 15 is half of 30 thank you, but pair that killer weapon with that 15 bonus and suddenly you're at 45. Then consider the critical rate equation, then realize that with that set up Guy is critting over 50% of the time. And realize it's close to 25+% when he isn't weilding a killer weapon. 1/4 chance of doing 3x damage on each hit and hitting more often than Dorcas seems pretty substantial to me. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Gambling isn't cool, kids. If your strategy depends on getting a 30% critical, then if has a 49% chance to fail. He is statistically doing a lot of damage with those crits, but one crit every four attacks does not mean a crit on an attack where you actually need it.

That's an unfair comparison- Guy is one unit with a +15% critical hit chance, which is quite different from 30+ units with a +15% critical hit chance.

Take ( 1 - 0.15 ) = 0.85 vs. (0.85)^15 to see how vastly different those two scenarios really are.

 

 

49% of failure implies a 51% of success, incredibly higher than any gambling. That's like FE 101, make your riskiest attacks first (like when you want a lucky crit) so you can plan contigencies afterwards. 

It's unfair in order to point out how ridiculous it is to dismiss free bonus crit chance, of which Dorcas doesn't get in his promotion.  

Also... just like mathematically speaking (.85)^15 is smaller than .85.... (.85)^15 is only like 0.09ish. But I think I understood your actual meaning. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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Guy will be dealing some decent damage...to one enemy.

Player phase combat is just worse than mixed / enemy phase combat, because player phase combat is effectively one action while enemy phase combat is several.

Guy's 1-range lock might not be as severe as archers' 2-range lock, but it's a similar issue. He can do more than enough against one enemy, rather than good enough against several.

Guy's clear time will be equal to the number of ranged enemies he faces, no matter how good he is at not getting killed by them. He's getting attacked by enemies that could instead be getting counter attacked and killed and removed from the equation of threatening other units, like the healers you'll want to be keeping front line fighters healthy.

 

The first statement is just factually incorrect, he deals damage to one enemy on player phase (like ya know, every single unit in your army), but not every enemy unit has access to 1-2 range, so it's much more likely he's hitting as many units as you allow to reach him on enemy phase. <-- this covers the 2nd statement and third statement is just a repeat of the first.

Lucky for Guy though, you don't clear most maps with only 1 unit especially in effective play, and you can actually knock out a lot of the 1-2 range threats to guy with your cavaliers because of their superior movement (this is true for Dorcas and Guy) while your infantry are dealing with the bulk frontliners. 

On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

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The reason Dorcas has a better Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratio isn't because of hit rates, which I am a little done with saying are good for Dorcas (especially considering this is my last post). The reason is because, of course, 1-2 range. Each 2 range foe increases Guy's "received" counter without increasing his "dealt" counter, while both go up for Dorcas.

 

Well one, Dorcas hit rate is still factually lower than Guys, regardless of whether or not Dorcas hit is "good enough", therefore his Blows Dealt will be lower before considering 1-2 range, then throw in Guy's higher speed meaning Guy is more likely to double his opponent so even more Blows Dealt over Dorcas. Then when we consider Blows Received Dorcas has it worse because of his worse avoid stat meaning he's taking more hits than Guy, then of course his speed is lower so now add even more hits over Guy to Blows Received. So both sides of that equation look worse for Dorcas before we take into account his ability to do 1-2 range combat, the problem there is it'll also be exposing him to more possible hits, so at best it's a wash in the Blows Dealt to Blows Received and at worst it increases his Blows Received to unredeemable levels.  Leaving Guy the clear winner in an argument over Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratios

 

To my closing argument then

Here are some calculation equations that Guy has a ridiculous/normal advantage on, like for instance avoid which is much higher than just the bonus he's getting from his Luck stat being better. 

Avoid

= (Attack Speed x 2) + Luck + Support bonus + Terrain bonus + Tactician bonus

That's right, avoid cares about your AS , and we all know Guy is superior there. 

Staff avoid

= (Resistance x 5) + (Distance from enemy x 2)

Remember Guy's superior Resistance from earlier, turns out the 2 Res is extremely important in the above. Who is more likely to be beserked or sleeped? Dorcas

Accuracy

= Weapon Hit + (Skill x 2) + (Luck / 2) + Support bonus + Weapon Triangle bonus + S Rank bonus + Tactician bonus

We all saw that one coming, but I won't beat on that drum anymore.

Critical rate	= Weapon Critical + (Skill / 2) + Support bonus + Critical bonus + S Rank bonus
Critical evade	= Luck + Support bonus + Tactician bonus

Not only does Guy have a vastly higher Critical Rate , but a higher Critical evade.

And these are just the ones I think are worth mentioning, many more give Guy the advantage as well. 

So to recap, we have on the one hand. A more interesting, faster, stronger, higher crit rate and avoid unit. 

On the other we have someone with 1-2 range with mediocre speed and a "passable" hit rate. 

An easy decision. Vote Guy for President  for better unit. 

****

Had a great time in this debate @AnonymousSpeed hope you did as well. Thanks again for the invitation and the attempt to keep the debates going. 

To anyone else that decided to view this debate. If you're interested at all let us know. I'll take any debate, with any pairing within reason in any of the GBA/3DS FEs and obviously the Tellius series. Start flexing your debate muscles now for when everyone has finally finished Three Houses