What is presently the best House/Route? (And Why I think it's Blue Lions/Azure Moon)

[Moonlit Knight]

Having played Golden Deer first, I will completely conform to type and say that it’s the best route. My arguments:

Pros:

-You get some level of onscreen closure with  both Rhea/Seiros and TWSITD (can we just rename them Twisted?) and actually get more than one map facing off against the latter

-Similarly, I believe it’s the only route where you get the full picture about what happened between Seiros and Nemesis (which, being the opening cinematic, seems to be the main thrust of the game and the other routes feel somewhat hollow if they don’t pick up that thread) (Bonus points as Claude seems to be the only person in the game that can get a straight answer out of Rhea)

-Neither Dimitri nor Edelgard is particularly portrayed as evil, as they each go down due to their own faults (Dimitri - inability to let go of revenge; Edelgard - inability to realize that there are other ways of getting what she wants - she even tells Claude that they have the same ideals but still refuses to work together with him)

- The big three-way battle at Gronder Field between the three armies (which was hyped up at the E3 trailer) only really makes sense on the Golden Deer route. While everyone has a reason to fight Edelgard, the key problem is that there isn’t much of an obvious reason for Claude and Dimitri to fight each other as well, which causes the fight on the Blue Lions route to feel contrived. On this route, Dimitri is too far gone and makes clear that he will step on anybody who gets in his way, including Claude. (Of course, on the other two routes, probably because they couldn’t think of a good reason for Claude and Dimitri to be fighting against each other as well as against Edelgard, the fight is skipped entirely)

-With the obvious exception that you basically hear nothing at all about what’s going on in the kingdom, the only part that really felt rushed or incomplete to me was the end, as I really would have loved another map against TWISTED (maybe just outside the entrance to the base?) and a bit more build up to the appearance of Nemesis (who seemingly just comes out of nowhere). But these are minor compared to how the other routes felt incomplete (Only one map to take back the entire kingdom on BL? No TWISTED in BE?)

-While I thoroughly enjoyed the final maps on all routes, the final boss battle on GD has many completely unique features that no other route can claim: the final boss does not make a personal appearance on any of the other routes, the final map is unique and is not reused anywhere else; the MUSIC is the best, there are no demonic beast shenanigans; and it is the biggest shout out to Genealogy in a game filled with shout outs to Genealogy.

-While Edelgard and Dimitri have their moments, Claude is the most consistently hilarious lord

Cons

- Playing multiple routes, it becomes painfully obvious that Claude doesn’t really “need” Byleth like Edelgard and Dimitri do, and so the emotional connection between the two doesn’t feel the same. (I could understand the counter argument though that he is clearly more mature and someone you’d actually want as a leader because of it). I never quite felt like Claude ever really fully opened up to Byleth, and I felt like he would be a whole lot more interesting if there was at least one moment where he completely drops his guard or loses his composure. The closest he gets is on the BE route when none of his plans are working, and people like Judith and Hilda start dying.

-Similarly, the Route appears to be lacking the grey v. gray battles that make the other routes interesting, and it’s the closest the game gets to white v. black. The only grey that appears is probably the fact that you can’t save Edelgard and Dimitri from themselves.

-Claude’s love of “tricks” seems more like an informed attribute on the GD route, as he doesn’t really need to do much in that capacity battle-wise when Byleth can just steamroll everything for him (though it does come across more in the story than in battle). Ironically, he comes across as far more clever on the other routes.

- Part One I think was the weakest on GD because there is so much focus on things that happened in Edelgard and Dimitri’s past and things that involve people from the Empire and Kingdom. As a result, you feel very detached from what’s happening, whereas the other two routes have many more emotional hooks that get you into the story. This is not always a bad thing, however. For instance, I’m glad I did GD first because the BIG twist at the end of Part One (the identity of the Flame Emperor) came across as legitimately shocking and surprising precisely because you are so detached, as you are fed so many other clues on the other routes that it cheapens the reveal (though the Blue Lions cinematic hella makes up for it)

All this being said, the breeziness of the first part combined with the massive amounts of exposition you get in the route and the uniqueness of the final level all lead me to think that Golden Deer was deliberately designed to be played last.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Moonlit Knight

[Holder of the Heel]

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

In some ways that's actually -worse- because I don't think Edelgard goes out of her way to murder bad people who happen to just cross her path lol.

Killing irrelevant baddies is worse than killing relevant goodies? That doesn't sound quite right.

[LegendOfLoog]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

She claimed she wasn't a part of it right after her reveal, and Dimitri clearly didn't believe that. Now he's okay with it, after spending five years a wandering murder hobo because of that perceived betrayal. Now that answer is acceptable, apparently, and he has no further questions about why she's associating with the clearly evil cult which destroyed his childhood... and now hopes she can be redeemed without, uh, asking questions about that.

I'm not contending that he should just drop everything and go after TWSITD and abandon the war. I'm saying his disinterest in the topic isn't very consistent with his behavior written up to that point, even with the redemption arc having been speedily handled.

EDIT: Edelgard herself vowed to make the TWSITD pay for Duscur, so I don't think she'd be reluctant to provide those answers at all, tbh. They're not exactly fond of each other.

Dimitri didn't believe her because he was in the middle of a psychotic break, presumably. The last month or more, he hadn't been sleeping very much, and he just found that his step-sister put a hit on him, is allied with the people behind the massacre at Remire that brought his insanity back to the forefront, and just attempted to kill him and all of his classmates. I don't think it's too incredibly strange that he didn't trust her in that moment. Once he's no longer an insane murder hobo as a result of becoming an outcast of his own kingdom and believing Dedue died in his stead, I don't think it's too strange that he would re-evaluate some of his past actions and maybe consider that a child probably wasn't involved in the Tragedy of Duscur. 

As for why she's associating with an evil cult, he gets his answer through his questions regardless. She has a goal she wants to accomplish, and clearly she doesn't have the power to do it without them. Otherwise, she wouldn't associate with them in the first place. The main reason he talks to her is to see if it's possible for them to reconcile which is ultimately impossible anyway due to their differences. So I guess he could have asked about TWSITD, but it wouldn't really impact the narrative much in the end. 

[Crysta]

17 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

My only question about Claude is why does he say the word scheme every other sentence yet he hasn't done jack squat except shoot arrows and crack jokes? Although the question for most people would be "Why isn't this man bisexual?"

It's very endearing, but not in a fascinating way that inspires thoughts. The fact that we went this long without even touching upon the topic of his character speaks to how little he raises questions or ideas comparatively speaking. Point me in the direction of where the debate on who Claude is and I may revise my position.

He does them. The narrative doesn't draw a gigantic red line under them, but he did try to infiltrate the Holy Tomb before your arrival and admits he would have snuck into your room to get Jeralt's diary if you had refused him. The problem is the game doesn't really put obstacles in his path pre-timeskip, except maybe in the mock battle. He tries an ambush and then attempts to strike a deal to let your side win if you're willing to forfeit the prize. So it's there.

You're right that he doesn't cross the moral event horizons Edelgard and Dimitri do, which is what usually facilitates the debates here, but that doesn't have much to do with his character depth. He ends up being the only sane guy because the other two are just that terrible at coping with their damage, not that he's so good and pure.

24 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Dimitri and Claude aren't political rivals though, I'll get to that more in the next bit, but really she makes them rivals, and they would only otherwise be so already if her motivation is just wanting all the power for herself, and admittedly they hint at that with her war declaration and her making a point early on about how the other two are illegitimate off-shoots and my impression is she isn't crazy about their independence, particularly because she says the Church is where that comes from and she hates the Church--or maybe she hates the Church because she divided up her future power (though that interpretation is pure fancy, it is consistent enough).

They're not really rivals even after Edelgard. They clash more out of miscommunication more than anything. And because the game forces you to kill all commanders on the field when you reunite at Gronder because... reasons. Idk. I think it would have been more in character for him to just sit back and watch the two sides kill each other, then either join up with Dimitri and replenish his forces or take care of the remnants of the Imperial forces for a morale boost. Less losses, maximum profit.

Claude's ultimate aims are very similar to Edelgard's, but he's far more willing to play the long game than she is. I -think- his S-rank support implies that it's the kind of struggle he actually enjoys, which is why he leaves Fodlan for Almyra in every ending. If you're playing a route other than his own, he's moving on because his "scheme" failed in Fodlan and he's taking it elsewhere. If you're playing his route, he's hatching part 2 of his grand plan to eliminate racism and xenophobia with the power of friendship by taking the game to Almyra because he's fine with leaving Fodlan in best bro Byleth's hands.

Funnily enough, because Edelgard was willing to act and failed, she unintentionally gives him the catalyst that speeds up his plans and makes him look like a hero for cleaning up her mess... even though you are consolidating the continent just like she aimed to.

46 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

As you say with your own example with the brigands, there's oddities with these "schemes". If only Edelgard almost dying from her own plot had caused some self-reflection. THAT would have been interesting! But nope, she never does doubt. She fires him for failing and then wants to find a replacement lol.

I mean, it -does-. She immediately attempts to recruit you afterwards and there doesn't seem to be any more assassination attempts. I know she's a baddie and her conceit makes her liable to make mistakes like that one, but it's not like she doesn't learn or try to adapt to the situation.

50 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

She was put in a pretty great position to change the world, if only she'd look around at her classmates.

Dimitri and Claude, future leaders of the other nations, all within her reach. Instead of having thoughts that favor homicide, why wouldn't she consider talking about their values?

Honestly, you could say the same for Dimitri. Like I said before, all he apparently needed to get out of his self-destructive cycle was a conversation with those around him. The prime time to do it would have been at the Academy, and it's not like his peers weren't aware of his baggage. Why does he get a pass? They both have heavy trauma in their backgrounds, ironically due to the machinations of the same people.

Then again she doesn't trust Claude with Fodlan because he's a dirty foreigner and she thinks he doesn't know it's history, even though the dude spends all his time in the library. And she might think Dimitri is too soft. It may not even work out even if she did. Unlike Dimitri, I think she's more capable of thinking things through even when under duress, so whatever stance she eventually arrives at is far more calculated and solidified... even if it's incorrect.

Edelgard is an extremist. And like most extremists, she believes she's justified and must act for the "greater good". She is written consistently. She's wrong, but I have no doubt she sincerely believes she isn't, and it makes sense for her to think the way she does.

All the things you think she should have done is more or less what Claude wants to do lol, and she isn't Claude. There is already a Claude.

1 hour ago, Holder of the Heel said:

But no, we get stuff like the Holy Tomb battle "Hey I know we've hitherto been fighting for Rhea and stuff but stand down or die because I said so but by the way I don't want to do this, I did so much to prevent this situation".

Yes, you're either with her or against her. Re: the extremist part. Her plans have been in the works for a long time, and she knows the drastic measures she's committed herself to doing aren't going to be popular with Fodlan's dominant religion for obvious reasons. You don't like it, but it's consistent. I do believe she genuinely didn't want to make an enemy out of Byleth, but she's willing to carve through him if he's in her way.

1 hour ago, Holder of the Heel said:

It's explained by her just not trusting people so she would rather just threaten or kill them, like when Dimitri accuses her at the start of not having what it takes to rule well due to distrusting others. But being skeptical and just not looking at your surroundings are too different things. This is Bernie levels of blind to what is around you, but instead of being (mostly) for laughs and relatively harmless, it is deadly serious with Edelgard. The ideas and direction is all there, the ingredients for it: trauma, revenge, ideals, reunification, lust for power, savior complex, trying to store meaning/purpose to horrific loss in her life, not having a full lifespan. In a nebulous sense, she is impeccably well thought out. But as soon as she jumps off the paper of theory and into the game of practice, better not grab a magnifying glass and instead don Dimitri's mysterious eyepatch so as to not look too closely at the details. "But Dimitri--!" Yes, Dimitri too. It all just goes back to who I enjoyed the journey of the game with and reasons why one might have sympathy for a character and not another. But at this point I'm just beating Dorte's corpse over and over at this point.

 This sounds more like you don't like her as a person more than a complaint about how she's written. If anything it sounds like they did a good job showing her flaws because you're capable of picking them out, even if it's more analysis over whether or not it was smart or morally right. She doesn't always make intelligent decisions and she isn't morally upright - same with Dimitri. But there's no light at the end of the tunnel for her because her personality is far, far less malleable. They convey that pretty well, I think?

 

 

 

 

[zuibangde]

Why are some people judging Dimitri’s action as if he’s a morally sound and mentally stable person? He’s as morally grey as Edelgard and is clearly the least mentally stable of the three lords. His good side, his violent side and his unstable mental state are all part of his character and it’s a bit unreasonable to expect him to constantly make rational decisions and actions. In fact, I’d argue his actions and inability to care/handle some issues is in par with how someone in his situation would act.

Edited August 20, 2019 by zuibangde

[Crysta]

32 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Killing irrelevant baddies is worse than killing relevant goodies? That doesn't sound quite right.

"They're irrelevant so it's okay to murder them" is definitely a take. The point was he doesn't kill just imperial soldiers and people who personally wrong him, and his murdering isn't more morally upright than Edelgard's. Or the rest of your merry band of ugly brigand slayers, for that matter. It was a weird point to try to argue.

27 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Dimitri didn't believe her because he was in the middle of a psychotic break, presumably. The last month or more, he hadn't been sleeping very much, and he just found that his step-sister put a hit on him, is allied with the people behind the massacre at Remire that brought his insanity back to the forefront, and just attempted to kill him and all of his classmates. I don't think it's too incredibly strange that he didn't trust her in that moment. Once he's no longer an insane murder hobo as a result of becoming an outcast of his own kingdom and believing Dedue died in his stead, I don't think it's too strange that he would re-evaluate some of his past actions and maybe consider that a child probably wasn't involved in the Tragedy of Duscur. 

As for why she's associating with an evil cult, he gets his answer through his questions regardless. She has a goal she wants to accomplish, and clearly she doesn't have the power to do it without them. Otherwise, she wouldn't associate with them in the first place. The main reason he talks to her is to see if it's possible for them to reconcile which is ultimately impossible anyway due to their differences. So I guess he could have asked about TWSITD, but it wouldn't really impact the narrative much in the end. 

And the betrayal was the catalyst for that psychotic break, presumably. Sounds like a good mystery to solve, psychotic break-inducing betrayals. And probably before you start considering forgiving them.

"He finds out the answers anyway" by presumed player deduction is lazy. He should want the answers. And he doesn't actually reflect on the situation and come to the conclusion that she couldn't be directly involved in the tragedy for five years: he still wants her head when you find him again. There's no indication of him reflecting in the story, it just... is how it is. The narrative just sort of glosses over this and people don't notice enough to question it, I guess.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[Crysta]

2 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

Why are some people judging Dimitri’s action as if he’s a morally sound and mentally stable person? He’s as morally grey as Edelgard and is clearly the least mentally stable of the three lords. His good side, his violent side and his unstable mental state are all part of his character and it’s a bit unreasonable to expect him to make rational decisions and actions. In fact, I’d argue his actions and inability to care/handle some issues is in par with how someone in his situation would act.

I actually agree with this to a certain point. He isn't. Never contended that he was: actually repeatedly called him a child who hasn't learned to really cope with his stuff. My point of contention is whether or not the narrative does a good job completing his redemption arc, and whether or not his writing is consistent based on what was established before. It's not.

But I also don't think it's fair to then turn around and expect Edelgard to be the epitome of maturity or mental soundness, given her own background and experiences. But people do.

[Julian Solo]

12 hours ago, Crysta said:

"They're irrelevant so it's okay to murder them" is definitely a take. The point was he doesn't kill just imperial soldiers and people who personally wrong him, and his murdering isn't more morally upright than Edelgard's. Or the rest of your merry band of ugly brigand slayers, for that matter. It was a weird point to try to argue.

And the betrayal was the catalyst for that psychotic break, presumably. Sounds like a good mystery to solve, psychotic break-inducing betrayals. And probably before you start considering forgiving them.

"He finds out the answers anyway" by presumed player deduction is lazy. He should want the answers. And he doesn't actually reflect on the situation and come to the conclusion that she couldn't be directly involved in the tragedy for five years: he still wants her head when you find him again. There's no indication of him reflecting in the story, it just... is how it is. The narrative just sort of glosses over this and people don't notice enough to question it, I guess.

He litterally gets his answers from

 

Cornelia and Thales before he kills them. He literally kills more of the bad guys then Cluade and the church route.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Julian Solo

[zuibangde]

12 hours ago, Crysta said:

I actually agree with this to a certain point. He isn't. Never contended that he was: actually repeatedly called him a child who hasn't learned to really cope with his stuff. My point of contention is whether or not the narrative does a good job completing his redemption arc, and whether or not his writing is consistent based on what was established before. It's not.

But I also don't think it's fair to then turn around and expect Edelgard to be the epitome of maturity or mental soundness, given her own background and experiences. But people do.

Are we supposed to search for a redemption arc for him though? He doesn't really have anything to 'redeem' from because he admits that he's not exactly a good guy and he made it pretty clear that he's not going to change who he is. Dimitri isn't here to prove his worth and how he's a 'good guy at heart'. His goal is to cut the head off the snake (Edelgard) because he feels betrayed by her and by doing so, he manages to untie the knot that's been formed since childhood. 

I'm not sure what the writing established him to be before? Pre skip Dimitri is clearly someone that has violent tendencies with many unresolved issues and is trying very hard to control his negative emotions. There are multiple instances where he lets himself go (characters like Felix, Ingrid and Dedue also provide a glimpse of his hidden personality through supports). 

[Ottservia]

18 hours ago, Crysta said:

This gigantic paragraph seems to just be telling me what his character is and what his arc is supposed to be? I've played the route. I know what it is. People don't seem to be aware of just how strange it is that he completely forgets about the group who enacted the tragedy that utterly traumatized him and doesn't seem at all interested in Edelgard's connection to them after he's "redeemed" himself, in spite of that betrayal also being key to him turning into a cruel murderer. Taking the story as a whole, it's not good, and the route is hyperfocused on Dimitri and his growth. It's a route whose basis is a bad character arc.

okay if that one very tiny tiny thing is enough to say THE ENTIRE character arc is bad. I just don't know what to say. first of all, you're missing the entire point of his character arc if that is your take away. At that point in the story Dimitri's character arc is for the most part finished. He does not care about revenge anymore. The whole point of his arc is that REVENGE IS BAD!! and will only perpetuate a viscous cycle of hatred that will get more innocent people killed. that's the entire point of his arc so him not caring about revenge is the kind of the point. You're criticizing the story for what it's not trying to be. It never wanted to be that kind of story so therefore it is not bad writing. Like if Dimitri still was hyper focused on revenge after he was redeemed that would be bad writing because that would be him pretty much going backwards on all of the character development he just went through. It is a good character arc because learns, grows, and changes through the course of the story. Secondly, Dimitri does ask numerous like Cornelia and Arundel about the truth of the tragedy but they die right before they are able to give him a complete answer. So yeah he still kind of cares but for the most part, he's abandoned that line of thinking because that was the point of his arc.

[Holder of the Heel]

15 hours ago, Crysta said:

He does them. The narrative doesn't draw a gigantic red line under them, but he did try to infiltrate the Holy Tomb before your arrival and admits he would have snuck into your room to get Jeralt's diary if you had refused him. The problem is the game doesn't really put obstacles in his path pre-timeskip, except maybe in the mock battle. He tries an ambush and then attempts to strike a deal to let your side win if you're willing to forfeit the prize. So it's there.

Yeaaah, it’s there. In a few lines of text. That if we just backspaced out of existence nothing would be different. He did raise questions when he seemed eager to have Teach’s sword, but that went nowhere. He is curious, willing to break rules to sate his interest, because he wants to bridge the gap between this place and the next. Very cool. But it’s not given the place in the game’s course that it deserves.

 

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They're not really rivals even after Edelgard. They clash more out of miscommunication more than anything. And because the game forces you to kill all commanders on the field when you reunite at Gronder because... reasons. Idk. I think it would have been more in character for him to just sit back and watch the two sides kill each other, then either join up with Dimitri and replenish his forces or take care of the remnants of the Imperial forces for a morale boost. Less losses, maximum profit.

My apologies for the miscommunication, but I meant that they aren’t rivals of Edelgard like you said, not each other. But that is also true.

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Claude's ultimate aims are very similar to Edelgard's, but he's far more willing to play the long game than she is. I -think- his S-rank support implies that it's the kind of struggle he actually enjoys, which is why he leaves Fodlan for Almyra in every ending. If you're playing a route other than his own, he's moving on because his "scheme" failed in Fodlan and he's taking it elsewhere. If you're playing his route, he's hatching part 2 of his grand plan to eliminate racism and xenophobia with the power of friendship by taking the game to Almyra because he's fine with leaving Fodlan in best bro Byleth's hands.

Funnily enough, because Edelgard was willing to act and failed, she unintentionally gives him the catalyst that speeds up his plans and makes him look like a hero for cleaning up her mess... even though you are consolidating the continent just like she aimed to.

Yes, if only the Almyran element of the world, and by extension his motivation, was a part of the plot. Because conceptually it absolutely is interesting and COULD raise tons of juicy questions. But naturally foreign borders barely can get consideration when Fodlan is tearing itself apart from the inside and there is a dragon and underground terrorists...  a shame. His story is never actually told, it's just a footnote at the end.

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I mean, it -does-. She immediately attempts to recruit you afterwards and there doesn't seem to be any more assassination attempts. I know she's a baddie and her conceit makes her liable to make mistakes like that one, but it's not like she doesn't learn or try to adapt to the situation.

But she says that she will look for a replacement. Her not following up on that =/= her self reflecting. That’s purely your invention.

As for that attempt to recruit goes... that is an example of questionable writing. She explains nothing or what her goal is and gives nothing but words that she didn’t have anything to do with the horror that just took place despite admitting to working with Solon and he Death Knight. Very, very persuasive.

Why would Byleth agree to help someone hiding their identity that has some connection to the seriously messed up stuff happening and won’t explain what it is they are signing up for exactly. If there was ever a time to be forthright about some critical info, that was the time when her identity isn’t exposed and the church isn’t listening. But no, she makes a show of trying but doesn’t ACTUALLY try. We don’t have a proper reason for that, hence why it seems to be an objection to writing more than it is her as a person, but by virtue of the former being bad, it does the latter no favors.

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Honestly, you could say the same for Dimitri. Like I said before, all he apparently needed to get out of his self-destructive cycle was a conversation with those around him. The prime time to do it would have been at the Academy, and it's not like his peers weren't aware of his baggage. Why does he get a pass? They both have heavy trauma in their backgrounds, ironically due to the machinations of the same people.

The glaring difference being that Dimitri’s problem doesn’t concern the life and death of those he isn’t having conversations with. Whereas Edelgard’s obviously does.

That and the fact that when his course of action DOES concern the life and death of those around him, he of course doesn’t get a pass. That’s why he is told to get his crap together. The agony you felt following him while he is frothing at the mouth is the entirety of Crimson Flower, from start to finish, not just the beginning of it.

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Then again she doesn't trust Claude with Fodlan because he's a dirty foreigner and she thinks he doesn't know it's history, even though the dude spends all his time in the library. And she might think Dimitri is too soft. It may not even work out even if she did. Unlike Dimitri, I think she's more capable of thinking things through even when under duress, so whatever stance she eventually arrives at is far more calculated and solidified... even if it's incorrect.

If a dumb decision is arrived at through a lot of thought and doesn’t revise itself through testing, is it better or worse than one that happens without proper consideration and can still be revised when actually calculated/solidified?

Edited August 20, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[Burklight]

On 8/19/2019 at 12:08 PM, Landmaster said:

Don't particularly care if you find Blue Lions overrated and I have no desire to change your mind~ However, I will argue against Edelgard being popular and having the biggest fanbase because of her Route. BE was always the most popular house before the game released and it remained that way afterwards. They are still the most popular House. Nothing changed that. The popularity was pretty much always BE > GD > BL in terms of House popularity and it was always due to the characters in the house, not anything exceptional about  the Route itself compared to others.

I'm not entirely convinced BE is actually the most popular house. If you're going by the most popular units deployed lists from the online stats, team BE people are usually 1-8 or something like that. However, that sort of makes sense given that you have to pick BE for half of the routes because of the church route, while BL and GD each only get one.

[Landmaster]

11 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I'm not entirely convinced BE is actually the most popular house. If you're going by the most popular units deployed lists from the online stats, team BE people are usually 1-8 or something like that. However, that sort of makes sense given that you have to pick BE for half of the routes because of the church route, while BL and GD each only get one.

I'm going by the fact that in several polls on several sites (Polygon I believe was one of them, IIRC) stated that Black Eagles was the most popular House. I'm not referring to the Online Statistics (mainly because I can't see them so I can't speak for them either).

But even just visiting this forum, Reddit, Youtube, etc. it has been pretty clear that Black Eagles was the most popular choice by far leading up to the release of the game.

[Crysta]

6 hours ago, Julian Solo said:

He litterally gets his answers from

  Hide contents

Cornelia and Thales before he kills them. He literally kills more of the bad guys then Cluade and the church route.

No, he doesn't. She tells him that Patricia was conspiring with them. He didn't even consider that possibility prior to that - it was Rodrigue who had doubts. Edelgard and her connection as the Flame Emperor isn't wondered at any more after he's on his redemption arc.

And he still seems convinced she's connected in the BE route when he's not nearly as unhinged? Blah.

6 hours ago, zuibangde said:

Are we supposed to search for a redemption arc for him though?

Yeah because the game doesn't really give you the option to not go along with his dumb, reckless plan to march straight to Enbarr... so you kind of know something else has to make him change course. He needs it if he wants to survive and not completely break story immersion. You're gonna die if you charge into the capital without any resources.

6 hours ago, zuibangde said:

He doesn't really have anything to 'redeem' from because he admits that he's not exactly a good guy and he made it pretty clear that he's not going to change who he is. Dimitri isn't here to prove his worth and how he's a 'good guy at heart'. His goal is to cut the head off the snake (Edelgard) because he feels betrayed by her and by doing so, he manages to untie the knot that's been formed since childhood.

The game, and people, aren't generally interested in following murder hobo to the ends of the earth for very long.

Unless you're contending that he doesn't need that redemption for people to like him this much and consider him an engaging character. He certainly does. Not gonna treat him like a character meant to be a villain because he's so very clearly isn't, and go "well it's okay that he doesn't consider himself a good guy" when the narrative is very clearly leading you to "deep down he's meant to be a good guy."

His route isn't supposed to be Murder Hobo Adventures. If it was then my complaints would be very different.

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

okay if that one very tiny tiny thing is enough to say THE ENTIRE character arc is bad. I just don't know what to say. first of all, you're missing the entire point of his character arc if that is your take away.

Why do you think I simply must not understand the goal of the character if I don't come to the same conclusions as you do?

Yes, I know he completely forgets about something he was really fixated about and a key part of his psychotic breakdown because the narrative is sort of just "well he's good and not bent on revenge any more so it doesn't matter", as if he needs to remain in that state of mind to be at all concerned or intellectually curious about it. Since it's the thing that sort of sets up his character arc in the first place, no, I can't say I find the entire character arc very good. You failed when you accepted the challenge, I guess, if that is the extent of your argument.

I don't even think they needed to go much further with it. They could have easily just breached the topic during Dimitri's and Edelgard's last conversation, where it would have been appropriate and she was clearly amiable to communication, and even segway it into his condemnation of her methods and general worldview. You could still end at the same point, but he'd get more clarification on her motives, which I still contend he should be naturally concerned about at this point and it's strange that he isn't. Writing is laaaazy.

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Yeaaah, it’s there. In a few lines of text. That if we just backspaced out of existence nothing would be different. He did raise questions when he seemed eager to have Teach’s sword, but that went nowhere. He is curious, willing to break rules to sate his interest, because he wants to bridge the gap between this place and the next. Very cool. But it’s not given the place in the game’s course that it deserves.

Sure I'd like it if they gave him a fully-fleshed character arc, too, because I find the character interesting and I'd have more material to work with in regards to my "Claude > Dimitri in character depth" argument. The game does give you mileage on what little he does give you but I suspect people don't really notice, while with Dimitri they his character hyper focus and don't deliver nearly as much as they should with the extra time it's given. He changes in the space of a couple chapters, after five years of staying in the same headspace, and it's treated as exceptional character growth.

But if you actually take out Dimitri's psychotic break and redemption arc, the overarching story doesn't change much, either. If you leave in the psychotic break but take away the redemption arc, it merely changes when and how he dies in the other routes. His arc isn't this huge transformative thing in anything but his own route, and it's not done well in his own route.

You can argue that the lack of a on-screen transformative arc at all in Claude's route makes him a less deep character than Dimitri, I guess, but I don't think you need to transform if you're very unlikely to go through an entitled and mentally unhinged murder hobo phase to begin with. The complaint that he clearly doesn't "need" Byleth as an emotional crutch so it doesn't feel like he and Byleth have as deep of a bond is a legitimate one but makes sense for him, because it's clear from his background that he's been conditioned to sort out his own messes from a very young age (his parents told him to "fight his own battles"). 

I would like more Almyrans and Spartan wyvern culture, but great emphasis on them would be strange in a political conflict very focused on Fodlan. Not surprised that they're not given more spotlight.

But a guy who is given plenty of spotlight and room for development and still flops, while being very relevant to the conflict at hand? A worse travesty, imo. It's like you give Claude a few yards and tsk at what little the story does with him, but you give Dimitri the entire football field and shrug at the fact that the writing stumbles the entire way and he kind of just tumbles into the endzone.

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

But she says that she will look for a replacement. Her not following up on that =/= her self reflecting. That’s purely your invention.

You can probably ask why she doesn't follow up if you want to. She likely would if she didn't think there was a way she could potentially benefit from the situation instead, and it was clear Byleth would be an outright hostile threat.

The "Edelgard is dumb" hill really, really isn't one I'd double down on especially given all the much better hills she gives you to die on. I'm working with limited information and I'm still confident it just isn't true with what little I have. She does adjust her plans to better adapt and try to get the most out of it, which does usually require reflection. The game really doesn't need to spell it out for me to lead me to that conclusion and I'm glad it doesn't insult my intellect in such a way.

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

As for that attempt to recruit goes... that is an example of questionable writing. She explains nothing or what her goal is and gives nothing but words that she didn’t have anything to do with the horror that just took place despite admitting to working with Solon and he Death Knight. Very, very persuasive.

Nah, it's good. She can't explain her goal entirely to a stranger - that would be dumb given her precarious position and not knowing Byleth's own motivations yet - but it makes sense for her to see the potential. I do wish she explained her goals more fully to Dimitri, because he should want those answers and is deliberately trying to understand where she's coming from better, but we know that isn't important at that point he's good now. 🙂

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Why would Byleth agree to help someone hiding their identity that has some connection to the seriously messed up stuff happening...

Same reason why Dimitri says he really wants to forgive her now after his redemption arc is complete, in spite of not even asking for the answers, apparently.

I'm not sure she actually thinks she has a good chance to convince Byleth to help her, only the chance may be potentially there if they get to know each other better, however small it may be, though I'm basing that suspicion simply on the reaction she gives when you first reject her as Flame Emperor on another route ("Unfortunate, but not unexpected").

Does she just not explain everything and go along with it after Byleth commits? Because that would strike me as outright bad writing. Not that she's shifty af and doesn't give Byleth a crayon drawing of everything she intends to do before that decision. Giving that info to a potential enemy is a very bad idea.

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

The glaring difference being that Dimitri’s problem doesn’t concern the life and death of those he isn’t having conversations with. Whereas Edelgard’s obviously does.

Dimitri's "problem" very easily could have resulted in the deaths of his friends and his countrymen. In the GD route, without Byleth there, that's exactly what happens. Pre-redemption arc Dimitri is far more dangerous than people are giving him credit for and part of that may have to do with the game having the characters around him just sort of uncomfortably going along with him and expressing their misgivings in private over confronting him about it. Felix is the only one who seems to point out what it's going to inevitably lead to if he doesn't get that juicy redemption arc soon.

5 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

That and the fact that when his course of action DOES concern the life and death of those around him, he of course doesn’t get a pass. That’s why he is told to get his crap together. The agony you felt following him while he is frothing at the mouth is the entirety of Crimson Flower, from start to finish, not just the beginning of it.

If a dumb decision is arrived at through a lot of thought and doesn’t revise itself through testing, is it better or worse than one that happens without proper consideration and can still be revised when actually calculated/solidified?

This doesn't happen. Or at least not as soon as it should.

There is no option for you to appropriately scold him. The most you do is tell him he's wrong when he insists ThAt We'Re ThE SaMe We'Re BoTh MoNsTeRs CuZ YoU aVeNgEd YoUr DaD and expressing you miss the old Dimitri, and he brushes both of those choices off. You're not allowed to have a full fledged argument with him. Felix gets the closest to scolding him and spelling it out, but dad is right there to tell him to STFU. Rodrigue himself attempts very gentle pushback when you first meet him, but he later approaches you and frets about how he lacks the conviction to outright tell Dimitri he's wrong. It is pointed out that freeing the kingdom capital from Imperial rule would be the smarter, more responsible thing to do but Dimitri isn't interested and no one challenges him. You go on your merry path, to the Hasty Important Plot Death that FINALLY breaks through in spite of how illogically it's set up.

The narrative doesn't paint his murderous phase in a positive light at all, but he certainly does get a pass by everyone until Rodrigue's death. A glaringly obvious one at that.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[Julian Solo]

47 minutes ago, Crysta said:

No, he doesn't. She tells him that Patricia was conspiring with them. He didn't even consider that possibility prior to that - it was Rodrigue who had doubts. Edelgard and her connection as the Flame Emperor isn't wondered at any more after he's on his redemption arc.

And he still seems convinced she's connected in the BE route when he's not nearly as unhinged? Blah.

 

 

She was literally allied with the group of people that as far as he knew murdered his mother and father and Edelgard was working with them. If you really think he didn't know Edelgard didn't actually do it personally when she be like 12 I don't know what to tell you. She triggers his trauma he doesn't think rationally till after his arcs done. He would have no reason to suspect his mother of murdering his own father There's such things as gulity by affiliation. Plus he kills the leaders of the cult that created Edelgard anyway. And cleared Duscars named most likely.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Julian Solo
One more thing.

[Crysta]

11 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

She was literally allied with the group of people that as far as he knew murdered his mother and father and Edelgard was working with them. If you really think he didn't know Edelgard didn't actually do it personally when she be like 12 I don't know what to tell you. She triggers his trauma he doesn't think rationally till after his arcs done. He would have no reason to suspect his mother of murdering his own father There's such things as gulity by affiliation. Plus he kills the leaders of the cult that created Edelgard anyway. 

So you're argument is that she really did have firsthand influence in it when she was a pre-teen? What? This phrasing seems... off.

I'm not sure if he's thinking rationally even after the arc is done, is my problem. The irrationality is just manifesting in the opposite direction afterwards and he's incurious about what connection she may have in it after being so fixated on it for so long. I don't think he needs to carry the grudge any longer, though, once he does get the answers (but he doesn't ask). And I'd buy that he's thought it over and concluded he was initially wrong about the likely extent of her involvement, too, after he realizes he was clearly wrong about his stepmother.

You know how he outright disbelieves Cornelia initially when she disparages Patricia, but slowly has to come to the unnerving conclusion that he didn't really know his stepmother that well when more evidence is presented from trustworthy sources? That's the appropriate away to show someone gradually working out inner conflict and mistaken beliefs. That's abandoned with Edelgard.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[Julian Solo]

23 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So you're argument is that she really did have firsthand influence in it when she was a pre-teen? What? This phrasing seems... off.

I'm not sure if he's thinking rationally even after the arc is done, is my problem. The irrationality is just manifesting in the opposite direction afterwards and he's incurious about what connection she may have in it after being so fixated on it for so long. I don't think he needs to carry the grudge any longer, though, once he does get the answers (but he doesn't ask). And I'd buy that he's thought it over and concluded he was initially wrong about the likely extent of her involvement, too, after he realizes he was clearly wrong about his stepmother.

You know how he outright disbelieves Cornelia initially when she disparages Patricia, but slowly has to come to the unnerving conclusion that he didn't really know his stepmother that well when more evidence is presented from trustworthy sources? That's the appropriate away to show someone gradually working out inner conflict and mistaken beliefs. That's abandoned with Edelgard.

No you misunderstood what I said. He clearly didn't think that Edelgard as a kid murdered his father and mother. When he said that he was angry and his ptsd was already in control. However she was working with the people that did murder his father and Byelths in the present. She wasn't innocent by gulity of affiliation. In all routes he know she was in remire village when it was destroyed anyway.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Julian Solo
Grammar

[Crysta]

I don't think the PTSD is a good enough excuse for him to not reflect upon it at all during the five years after the initial psychotic break, particularly because it's still there after the redemption arc and he's over the betrayal (and probably shouldn't be entirely yet). It makes his reactions just that much worse and he does a poor job coping, yes, but it doesn't deprive him of his intellect.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[0 Def Cleric]

5 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

No you misunderstood what I said. He clearly didn't think that Edelgard as a kid murdered his father and mother. When he said that he was angry and his ptsd was already in control. However she was working with the people that did murder his father and Byelths in the present. She wasn't innocent by gulity of affiliation. In all routes he know she was in remire village when it was destroyed anyway.

That's really not how PTSD works. People with it are still capable of differentiating reality from falsehood, unless they're being triggered, and episodes following triggers do not last long at all. Unless you're possibly presuming that every single conversation with Dimitri post-skip is constantly triggering him, PTSD is no excuse for that. 

[Julian Solo]

9 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

That's really not how PTSD works. People with it are still capable of differentiating reality from falsehood, unless they're being triggered, and episodes following triggers do not last long at all. Unless you're possibly presuming that every single conversation with Dimitri post-skip is constantly triggering him, PTSD is no excuse for that. 

He was far worst after the time skip because he spends time in prison in every route accept crimson flower.

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Julian Solo said:

He was far worst after the time skip because he spends time in prison in every route accept crimson flower.

Again, that's not how PTSD works. PTSD activates on triggers, and does not cause constantly disordered thinking. Whether he's been imprisoned or not, the fact remains that if he had PTSD, he would have considerably more logical thought patterns than he currently exhibits. PTSD may be a dissociative disorder to an extent, but it does not cause consistently warped thought processes, like many personality disorders as well as psychosis and schizophrenia. In addition, the majority of disorders that cause consistently warped thought processes are lifelong, and do not disappear when your good old pal Rodrigue dies on the spot. 

The closest thing to what Dimitri exhibits is trauma-induced psychosis, which is a very different animal to proper PTSD. Source: I have a psychology degree with a focus on trauma. 

[Slumber]

It's definitely psychosis related. And in a consistent, constant state. Dimitri thinks the ghosts he's seeing and the voices he's hearing are real. Even when he's able to separate them from reality, he's still seeing and hearing them.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Slumber

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

It's definitely psychosis related. And in a consistent state. Dimitri thinks the ghosts he's seeing and the voices he's hearing are real.

Yup! Fodlan definitely needs better mental health research because half of everyone in this game has issues. And that's only the nobility!

(If it is psychosis related, though, I do feel a bit disappointed that it's not maintained throughout the route.)

Edited August 20, 2019 by 0 Def Cleric

[Crysta]

8 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Again, that's not how PTSD works. PTSD activates on triggers, and does not cause constantly disordered thinking. Whether he's been imprisoned or not, the fact remains that if he had PTSD, he would have considerably more logical thought patterns than he currently exhibits. PTSD may be a dissociative disorder to an extent, but it does not cause consistently warped thought processes, like many personality disorders as well as psychosis and schizophrenia. In addition, the majority of disorders that cause consistently warped thought processes are lifelong, and do not disappear when your good old pal Rodrigue dies on the spot. 

The closest thing to what Dimitri exhibits is trauma-induced psychosis, which is a very different animal to proper PTSD. Source: I have a psychology degree with a focus on trauma. 

Does the trauma-induced psychosis play out realistically in the story, in your more learned opinion?

[Slumber]

13 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

(If it is psychosis related, though, I do feel a bit disappointed that it's not maintained throughout the route.)

The only thing that changed is Dimitri's ability to separate what's in his head from reality. Rodrigue being able to convey his dying wishes to Dimitri managed to get him to realize that he's been largely on a misguided rampage based on what he thought everyone else who died wanted.

Not saying that's a great way of handling it, since people usually(I dare say never, but I'm not the one with the psychology degree) don't just go from being haunted by hallucinations to just being able to ignore them due to a single event, but Dimitri is still clearly suffering from psychosis after Rodrigue dies.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Slumber