What is presently the best House/Route? (And Why I think it's Blue Lions/Azure Moon)

[DragonFlames]

On 8/17/2019 at 3:15 AM, Spectrum said:

Hmm I disagree with you. I think the 2 "major" plot points of 3H are about Rhea and TWISTD, so these 2 cons outweigh the 3 pros you mentioned imo. I have yet to finish Church route, but so far, BL is my least favorite. The lack of confrontation with TWISTD in Crimson Flower makes me think that GD route is the normal/best route since all of the questions are answered and Rhea is exposed. Crimson Flower is my personal favorite, but as for a completed route, I think GD is the best.

Having played three of the four routes except the Church route, I agree.

I do, however, also agree with the OP: Blue Lions was a fantastic and very emotional route, but for me, Golden Deer wins, as it goes into the overarching plot of Rhea and TWSITD (they REALLY need another name, Jesus), something Blue Lions completely forgets about. I played Blue Lions first, because blue is my favorite color, so I was baffled by how many major plot threads were left hanging and never resolved. 

Though if my theory of Thales (the leader of TWSITD) and Arundel being the same person is correct (they have the same voice actor), you DO get to deal with TWSITD... sort of. You'd at least have killed their leader.

I also like Golden Deer and Crimson Flower more because Azure Moon was "Fuck your fliers, fuck your squishy units, fuck the ones that have either low defense or resistance, because I have SIEGE WEAPONS, baby! Wooohooo!!!" The game. Seriously, that stuff got old REALLY quickly.

Edited August 18, 2019 by DragonFlames

[Holder of the Heel]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Having played three of the four routes except the Church route, I agree.

I do, however, also agree with the OP: Blue Lions was a fantastic and very emotional route, but for me, Golden Deer wins, as it goes into the overarching plot of Rhea and TWSITD (they REALLY need another name, Jesus), something Blue Lions completely forgets about. I played Blue Lions first, because blue is my favorite color, so I was baffled by how many major plot threads were left hanging and never resolved. 

Though if my theory of Thales (the leader of TWSITD) and Arundel being the same person is correct (they have the same voice actor), you DO get to deal with TWSITD... sort of. You'd at least have killed their leader.

Yeah I had actually completely missed the Arundel and Thales connection, and I see no reason why I should deny it for VA's being shared is the trend with hidden identities. In that case, that is oddly a slight point in favor of Azure Moon, but only in comparison to Crimson Flower. Verdant Winds has you fighting his true form in their HQ, so I have to echo the sentiment that you do in that Green Deer is arguably the winner, also having Rhea's backstory. My opinion is biased in that I just really enjoyed the journey more in the other in White Clouds and onward.

Which really makes one wonder: would this game have just been better if it was all one route? Dimitri's transformation could have been paced because it wouldn't be rushed for plot progression. All the White Clouds BL connections. We could get Golden Deer revelations and fights. Byleth could return to normal with Rhea's death (or maybe Greenleth being the archbishop is better, I don't know). Every student is where they need to be and not helping someone else inexplicably. Nothing would end up rushed, shorter, or incomplete, and no reused/redone content. I guess we'll never know.

P.S. Yes, Those Who Slither in the Dark is annoying as hell to type, but the name has grown on me because I love when Hubert's VA says it lol.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[wissenschaft]

What do people think of the church vs golden deer routes?

[timon]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Though if my theory of Thales (the leader of TWSITD) and Arundel being the same person is correct (they have the same voice actor), you DO get to deal with TWSITD... sort of. You'd at least have killed their leader.

Crimson Flower spoilers

Spoiler

It's confirmed they are the same person, what is actually not confirmed anywhere is if Thales is the original Arundel or they replaced him like with Tomas and Monica. There's a small hint in a book in the library, where it's said that the noble Lord Arundel mysteriously stopped donating money. There's also the fact that he was leading the recent uprising of the nobles in the Empire, and the Duscur tragedy happened more or less at the same time.

All of this considered, I'm pretty sure the whole storyline of the game sets off when Thales replaces Arundel (which would also be when he kidnapped Edelgard), that's the first step of TWSITD's plan which is to disrupt both Kingdom and Empire with the purpose of weakening the Church.

 

[LegendOfLoog]

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

What do people think of the church vs golden deer routes?

Church route is essentially Golden Deer without the Golden Deer. The maps are very similar for the most part and the purpose story-wise behind each map is very similar. The only significant differences are that Seteth and, to a lesser extent, Flayn gain actual story relevance in the Church route. Also, it's the only route that fully explains Byleth's past. I recommend spacing the GD route and Church route far apart because the similarities can become grating if played back-to-back. 

[Slumber]

On 8/17/2019 at 8:04 AM, Thane said:

However, the execution is simply not there. Dimitri's post-timeskip self is too over the top to be believable and is treated so awkwardly. He goes from thinking only of vengeance and hallucinating about the dead judging him back to his pre-timeskip self within ONE chapter. Everyone kind of awkwardly ignores how seriously far gone Dimitri seems, and it's a wonder there's not some kind of max desertion from the army considering how he acts. Gilbert, Rodrigue and the other students kind of shrug it off and immediately start talking about something else whenever he goes off on his rants.

Dimitri definitely doesn't go back to his pre-timeskip personality. He comes back from his bloodthirsty self, but he's still bitter, jaded and haunted. He's just better able to deal with those issues.

Part of what caused him to go through such a big change in one chapter is Rodrigue's last words. It's cheesy to have somebody's dying words change a person so drastically, but the game actually sets this up quite a bit:

Dimitri being "haunted" by the ghosts of people who keep telling him to avenge them are all in his head. He's hallucinating what he thinks the dead want from him based on the words of his dying father, and he has immense survivor's guilt. Rodrigue, however, actually got to tell Dimitri what he wanted from him with his dying words, which was the exact opposite of what he'd been thinking the dead wanted from him. While Dimitri was still clearly having issues and hallucinating, Rodrigue's death FINALLY got him to separate the voices in his head from reality. That's why Dimitri had his whole "Do I have the right to live for myself?" moment, because he's been building up this image of what it means to avenge people in his head for 9 years of his life. He basically has an identity crisis when Rodrigue dies, and comes out of it different than he was before he had to question what he was doing.

I definitely think him finding out Dedue was still alive should have softened him up more which would build up to that more extreme flip in personality, but since that's an event that only happens if you do a certain paralogue...

Edited August 18, 2019 by Slumber

[wissenschaft]

3 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Church route is essentially Golden Deer without the Golden Deer. The maps are very similar for the most part and the purpose story-wise behind each map is very similar. The only significant differences are that Seteth and, to a lesser extent, Flayn gain actual story relevance in the Church route. Also, it's the only route that fully explains Byleth's past. I recommend spacing the GD route and Church route far apart because the similarities can become grating if played back-to-back. 

Thanks, I'll certainly prefer the church route then, Cluade is cool and all but meh, I'll take the church characters instead.

Edited August 18, 2019 by wissenschaft

[Crysta]

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Character shifts, or the conspicuous lack thereof, are rampant in Three Houses.

Really? Who else goes through a dramatic character shift?

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Supports can span any length of time, from one week to the next, or more notably, after five years, everyone comes back as if distilled in a hyperbolic time chamber and things just proceed as if normal. No matter the setting or mood in the monastery, you can invite them to tea and they will always be happy and charming. The game progression and mechanics come first, always, and characters will flimsily justify whatever they must for the sake of it, like when the Black Eagles House awfully explain why they are going along with the Empire's war.

The most I've seen a support do is simply offer an explanation on why the character is the way they are, or them admitting their mindset has changed because of your influence or something. Hardly qualifies as someone completely changing their priorities or attitude. Dimitri's writing does deserve critique because it's pretty much the entire focus of that route and the mechanical limitations of the game have very little influence over it, outside the fact that you can't interact with him at all for a couple of months after the timeskip and he has fewer supports with Byleth.

The Black Eagle complaint is legit, but not really the same thing. Character recruiting INTO the Black Eagles likely has the same cognitive dissonance, particularly with BL characters, but it's still not quite the same thing.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

This kind of stuff is in contrast with Dimitri who is the only one to really have a change over the years of being alone, dead to the world, amidst a bloody war. It seems sudden, because for us it IS, we skipped all those years. Plenty of things are done to set up his shift as you say. Sure we can say that more should be there, but I don't think it's a fault of Dimitri and the Blue Lions route being weak writing wise.

He's the same teenager you leave after the timeskip but with just a higher kill count and willingness to apparently torture. He hasn't grown, but his priorities have shifted... and the growth isn't there to really justify it. Funnily enough there are support conversations where he's all like "if someone had told me that five years ago things would have been completely different" which means all he needed, apparently, was the conversation everyone was afraid to have with him lmao. But since he isolated himself and presumably just spent the time hunting bad people down and killing them, instead of like... being worried about WTF is happening to his kingdom and/or taking proactive measures to murder Edelgard until you show up again, it makes sense... but doesn't really do him any favors as a character or protagonist.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

So instead of me seeing it as Dimitri being bad, it is relatively exceptional, but because it's on another level than the dynamic of the gameplay that dictates the pace, it might stick out in a way that isn't favorable, but it's not a fault of that story but rather the game itself in my opinion. 

Hard disagree there. It's beginning to feel they moved him in this direction for the sake of being edgy and different, and being different alone isn't enough for it to be exceptional. I don't think his revenge arc is even good compared to other, far less significant revenge arcs in the series.

Just got to the post time skip conversation with Edelgard and he doesn't ask her at all about why she's hanging out with the guys who are presumably responsible for Duscur so I guess he's over that now? Instead we're talking about ideals and how wrong Edelgard is. Again, nothing to do with game mechanics, 100% having to do with the writing and plot direction. He's good now. We don't have to delve much further into things, I guess?

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

You say that if we had spent another chapter fighting Edel it wouldn't have changed much... but having another Chapter with Dimitri being in a stage between a "monster" and his chivalrous self, would that have changed much? The end result is still the same. Sure I too would have liked more exploration of it, but it is still arguably the most characterization we have for anyone.

Another fight alone wouldn't do it, but this route is screaming for more exposition and character building. Which is weird because it's clear they put the most story emphasis on his route. I haven't gotten around to playing the Black Eagles yet, but in spite of it being a shortened route it seems have enough to make it's anti-hero developed enough to make her route the most popular and give her the biggest fanbase. It's not like they're incapable of pulling it off, but it seems they decided they just didn't have to (and they might be right lol).

tl;dr Blue Lions route writing is overrated. Change my mind.

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Crysta

[Slumber]

38 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Thanks, I'll certainly prefer the church route then, Cluade is cool and all but meh, I'll take the church characters instead.

But you'll miss possibly the best final map ost in the series!

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 8/16/2019 at 4:48 PM, Holder of the Heel said:

I've done all the routes except the Church one, and from what I can tell, it is no one's favorite, and I've already put so much time into it I really need to set it down... until all the DLC is out and I will play it a ton again.

No route is perfect, and some have positives that others don't, so I can't declare my take as objective fact, but I will try my best to lay down my thoughts and see how many might agree or disagree.

Blue Lions Pro #1: Strongest White Clouds / Pre-War

Blue Lions Pro #2: Best interactions between the main lords

Blue Lions Pro #3: Best narrative and emotional arc

Blue Lions Con #1: No Confrontation with Those Who Slither in the Dark

Blue Lions Con #2: No resolution with Rhea

Anyone else with experience of multiple routes have any thoughts on how they compare to one another?

I've only experienced two routes so far (Black Eagles and Blue Lions) and I really enjoyed both! I have a mixture of agreements and disagreements.

Pro #1: Hmm, I don't think I agree with this one. Sure, Lonato and Miklan connect directly with Faerghus and thus Dimitri, but from a story-telling perspective they connect more directly with Edelgard and her desire to oppose the church and destroy crests as the arbiters of social order. I loved the ground-view of seeing her reactions and comments on these events and how they set the stage for what she is planning to do, and of course build to Rhea as her main antagonist.

Pro #2: Agreed with this one. Exploring Dimitri's relationship to Edelgard gives this route some effective emotional gravitas. The scene in which Dimitri and Edelgard face off prior to Enbarr to discuss why they each are doing what they are doing, and the ending is beautiful.

Pro #3: Agreed with this one as well. I loved watching Dimitri's mask crack in late part 1 until after a final series of betrayals he becomes a shattered husk of a man who his allies want and arguably need to place their trust in, but with great reservations since he's so obviously unhinged. I can't recall seeing much like else like it in this medium, and certainly in this series. He overcomes this eventually, but not in a treacly way, and the endgame Dimitri is obviously still permanently scarred, tears up at the liberation of Faerghus, and offers lines like "after everything, will I ever truly deserve to be happy?" So good.

Con #1: Honestly? This is a pro for me. You know what I don't care about in Fire Emblem? Cults full of evil (and usually ugly) men doing evil things for evil reasons. To be perfectly honest they helped ruin the plots of Fire Emblem 4, 7, 13, and Echoes for me, to varying degrees. Contrasted with the excellent grey villainy of Edelgard and Rhea, they're downright childish. I don't really care about them at all. I haven't played Golden Deer/Church yet, so y'know maybe I'll be eating my words later. The game's writing has high overall quality and maybe they'll even make the Slitherers work. But I doubt it. Dimitri's antagonist is NOT the Slitherers, even if they may be responsible for Duscur. It's Edelgard, and the wrtiers knew this and embraced it. Good for them. And hey Dimitri did end up killing two of the Slitherer leaders without even knowing it!

Con #2: On the other hand, I agree with this one. Edelgard just leaves Rhea sitting in her basement for five years, and when you finally rescue her she doesn't even appear on screen? It's very strange, given her importance to the world. To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with this not being a route about Rhea, but narratively if that's the choice I think it would be better if Rhea was just killed off. It'd have the added bonus of causing a few other characters to become revenge-fueled (Catherine for instance) which would create opportunities to examine them in parallel with Dimitri.

Overall though, yeah, if it's not clear, I really liked both this route and Crimson Flower. I think the other two routes have their work cut out for me to like them as much, because conceptually they don't sound as interesting, but we'll see!

[Holder of the Heel]

 

Quote

He's the same teenager you leave after the timeskip but with just a higher kill count and willingness to apparently torture. He hasn't grown, but his priorities have shifted... and the growth isn't there to really justify it. Funnily enough there are support conversations where he's all like "if someone had told me that five years ago things would have been completely different" which means all he needed, apparently, was the conversation everyone was afraid to have with him lmao. But since he isolated himself and presumably just spent the time hunting bad people down and killing them, instead of like... being worried about WTF is happening to his kingdom and/or taking proactive measures to murder Edelgard until you show up again, it makes sense... but doesn't really do him any favors as a character or protagonist.

Well if you can understand why he is lost, hopeless, and deluded, then we're on the same page. He's deeply flawed, that isn't being debated. He isn't the antagonizing force like Edelgard, but the game is even more acutely aware that Dimitri is just plain wrong and that's the point. I don't defend him because I think he's some great hero, just like some people defend Edelgard but hesitate to say she is "good" or makes no mistakes. They both get messed up as kids and react, as one would expect, rather poorly, each in different ways. I'd be much cooler with Edelgard if they treated her insistence on carnage in her own route on the same level of criticism as Dimitri's own insistence with carnage in his. But no, she is instead entirely vindicated through victory and defeating the obligatory "evil FE dragon". Dimitri too becomes vindicated in the end, but not before receiving a lot of help from people, suffering a loss, and then apologizing and promising to be better.

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Hard disagree there. It's beginning to feel they moved him in this direction for the sake of being edgy and different, and being different alone isn't enough for it to be exceptional. I don't think his revenge arc is even good compared to other, far less significant revenge arcs in the series.

Instead of concluding that IS wants an edgy person due to some sort of evidence?, I'd sooner just think they can't be bothered because the rest of the game is pushed through the door with haste. Here's Lonato, now he's dead. Here's Miklan, now he's dead. Jeritza, that guy whose said three words optionally, is the Death Knight. Tomas is missing, now he is a guy named Solon. Here's Monica, oh she is evil. Jeralt is dead. Okay, get over it. Uh oh, Edelgard is ordering everyone to stand down or die. Now you're siding with her. Oh here's a CG of Rhea as a dragon. Snap: five years have passed. Now you're back with your students. Now here's Claude and Dimitri on the fields like five years ago so we can have a cutscene, they'll fight each other because reasons. Let's follow up on Claude. Now he's gone. Here's Dimitri, now he's gone.  Now kill Rhea. Time for Arundel? No, the game is over.

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Just got to the post time skip conversation with Edelgard and he doesn't ask her at all about why she's hanging out with the guys who are presumably responsible for Duscur so I guess he's over that now? Instead we're talking about ideals and how wrong Edelgard is. Again, nothing to do with game mechanics, 100% having to do with the writing and plot direction. He's good now. We don't have to delve much further into things, I guess?

You're not entirely wrong, although I can see that people criticize that he accused her at all and that is insane, and when he gets a grip on himself, he is criticized for now being over that delusion. I argued that the fact that Edelgard and Dimitri actually debate ideals/motivations is an example of what puts it above the other routes, so I suppose we'll just have to disagree here.

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Another fight alone wouldn't do it, but this route is screaming for more exposition and character building. Which is weird because it's clear they put the most story emphasis on his route. I haven't gotten around to playing the Black Eagles yet, but in spite of it being a shortened route it seems have enough to make it's anti-hero developed enough to make her route the most popular and give her the biggest fanbase. It's not like they're incapable of pulling it off, but it seems they decided they just didn't have to (and they might be right lol).

Edelgard and the Black Eagles have been the most popular before the game even came out, lol. Part of that is marketing, part of that is the power of waifuism (hell, Golden Deer seemed second because of husbandoism with Claude). Based on the loading screen statistics, Blue Lions is the least chosen upon release, and my impression pre-release was that people online were more interested in the others. Black Eagle students nearly cover the whole list of favored deployments, with Edelgard near the top, with BE students like Dorothea and Bernie taking the top spots last I checked. You MIGHT see Claude at the bottom, showing Golden Deer is second. It could be different now.

Overrated is a pretty strong word because of that. Why would you say this, because what, a handful of people in this thread on this website favor it? Even I started with Black Eagles because it had the most students I was interested and Blue Lions the least.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[Crysta]

51 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Well if you can understand why he is lost, hopeless, and deluded, then we're on the same page. He's deeply flawed, that isn't being debated. He isn't the antagonizing force like Edelgard, but the game is even more acutely aware that Dimitri is just plain wrong and that's the point. I don't defend him because I think he's some great hero, just like some people defend Edelgard but hesitate to say she is "good" or makes no mistakes. They both get messed up as kids and react, as one would expect, rather poorly, each in different ways. I'd be much cooler with Edelgard if they treated her insistence on carnage in her own route on the same level of criticism as Dimitri's own insistence with carnage in his. But no, she is instead entirely vindicated through victory and defeating the obligatory "evil FE dragon". Dimitri too becomes vindicated in the end, but not before receiving a lot of help from people, suffering a loss, and then apologizing and promising to be better.

He's pretty much just as antagonistic as Edelgard with less willpower and good sense, tbh. I'm actually fine with that, but it is surprising to see how many "Edelgard is ebil and unhinged" rants there are compared to Dimitri and his murder hobo stage because he gets a poorly fleshed out redemption arc. People instead treat it like a magnificent piece of storytelling, and that he's a complicated character. He's not. He's a kid with coping issues. I guess you can commend the game for showing an imperfect lord character, but the story doesn't do enough legwork for his redemption arc to be very consistent or convincing. I believe they easily could have because of the existence of a shortened route with a much more difficult character to get people to like (self-righteous morally gray female lord) and apparently they pulled it off.

 

51 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Instead of concluding that IS wants an edgy person due to some sort of evidence?, I'd sooner just think they can't be bothered because the rest of the game is pushed through the door with haste. Here's Lonato, now he's dead. Here's Miklan, now he's dead. Jeritza, that guy whose said three words optionally, is the Death Knight. Tomas is missing, now he is a guy named Solon. Here's Monica, oh she is evil. Jeralt is dead. Okay, get over it. Uh oh, Edelgard is ordering everyone to stand down or die. Now you're siding with her. Oh here's a CG of Rhea as a dragon. Snap: five years have passed. Now you're back with your students. Now here's Claude and Dimitri on the fields like five years ago so we can have a cutscene, they'll fight each other because reasons. Let's follow up on Claude. Now he's gone. Here's Dimitri, now he's gone.  Now kill Rhea. Time for Arundel? No, the game is over.

"It's the mechanics/game" argument doesn't strike me as very convincing with the sheer amount of content this game has been imbued with otherwise. It is a point against his writing, which is legit, regardless of how rushed you feel the rest of the game is with the background of their minor characters. They're minor characters, not the lord.

Though as an aside, the CG with Mercedes and the Death Knight also drew a "um, okay" reaction from me, even though I know I was supposed to feel bad lol.

51 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

You're not entirely wrong, although I can see that people criticize that he accused her at all and that is insane, and when he gets a grip on himself, he is criticized for now being over that delusion. I argued that the fact that Edelgard and Dimitri actually debate ideals/motivations is an example of what puts it above the other routes, so I suppose we'll just have to disagree here.

No I think it's good that he's over the delusion, because it makes no sense, though it took him a long time to realize that. My problem is that it still should be a gigantic question because she IS connected to the guys who literally killed everyone he loved, which was a driving force behind his character for most of the story. It's really, really weird to have no questions about that and have her clarify, particularly when she seems to be in a conversational state of mind. Does Dimitri just not think about it all of a sudden, when the person with the most answers is... right there?

srsly wat

Their debate is over ideals we pretty much deduced already at that point. Edelgard is operating in a cost-benefit authoritarian mindset to enact the change she wants to see (the ends justify the means, deaths now to prevent more death later, etc.) while Dimitri can't bring himself to go down that path and knows people stumble and you can't -make- everyone strong. The ending of the conversation is adorable, but it made me feel even more disappointed that we didn't ask her the pertinent questions. She would have happily provided what she knew.

But no Edelgard bad, Dimitri good. We can't make her see the error of her ways. I get it. Sigh.

51 minutes ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Edelgard and the Black Eagles have been the most popular before the game even came out, lol. Part of that is marketing, part of that is the power of waifuism. Based on the loading screen statistics, Blue Lions is the least chosen upon release, and my impression pre-release was that people online were more interested in the others. Black Eagle students nearly cover the whole list of favored deployments, with Edelgard near the top, with BE students like Dorothea and Bernie taking the top spots last I checked. You MIGHT see Claude at the bottom, showing Golden Deer is second. It could be different now.

Overrated is a pretty strong word because of that. Why would you say this, because what, a handful of people in this thread on this website favor it?

It IS difficult to make a popular antagonistic female character simply due to gender conventions when it comes to ladies in leadership roles. They deserve more credit beyond "that's because she was marketed more and she's a hot girl!" Which also exemplifies some disappointing gender conventions. If she was written poorly, the debates over her character here would be very different.

And no, I think "overrated" is befitting. It's getting lauded as the best route in this very topic, and elsewhere - only me and Thane seem to be the vocal skeptics here... and I know I chose BL after my GD run because people were going on about how great the storytelling is because it's more connected to the overarching plot.

It's... really not. 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Crysta

[Holder of the Heel]

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

He's pretty much just as antagonistic as Edelgard with less willpower and good sense, tbh.

His mentality and actions are reactionary. Definitely not good, don't get me wrong, but antagonizing forces are the source of the conflict, so by definition it has to be the Empire in part 2 and the mole people in part 1. In the end, his damage pales in comparison to the one that started the war. I'd say that it can be claimed he's just as antagonistic post time skip before he stops being insane, since he is currently not in a state of wanting to get out of the conflict. But by the end, he wants to stop but has no choice because the Empire won't consider peace. Whether you define it by being the source of conflict, causing the most damage, or wanting there to be conflict, overall or by the end Dimitri doesn't fit the bill as much like you say.

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I'm actually fine with that, but it is surprising to see how many "Edelgard is ebil and unhinged" rants there are compared to Dimitri and his murder hobo stage because he gets a poorly fleshed out redemption arc. People instead treat it like a magnificent piece of storytelling, and that he's a complicated character. He's not. He's a kid with coping issues. I guess you can commend the game for showing an imperfect lord character, but the story doesn't do enough legwork for his redemption arc to be very consistent or convincing. I believe they easily could have because of the existence of a shortened route with a much more difficult character to get people to like (self-righteous morally gray female lord) and apparently they pulled it off.

Well that's the thing with opinions. People have all different kinds. You say they've pulled off that people love Edelgard, but you also say people don't like her. People hate Dimitri, and others enjoyed the journey with him. All of this is being acknowledged in this paragraph at once, so really I don't know what to say in response.

I don't hate Edelgard either, I just feel the way you do about Dimitri with her. I'm not convinced there's enough set-up to get where they are going. We could say both are right. But the end result is I still prefer the one that suffers, loses people, and apologizes. And just on a personal level I don't believe in violent revolution. You may prefer the one on the basis that they are entirely in control of themselves from start to finish, and that's fair. Or whatever other reason.

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"It's the mechanics/game" argument doesn't strike me as very convincing with the sheer amount of content this game has been imbued with otherwise. It is a point against his writing, which is legit, regardless of how rushed you feel the rest of the game is with the background of their minor characters. They're minor characters, not the lord.

I definitely brought Claude and Edelgard into that as well. They just tried to do more with Dimitri arc wise in his route, whereas the other two exist in a more static state. There's not much more that can be stated here that we haven't already. You dislike they tried to do more because they didn't add in enough to back it up, I like they tried to do more and for that extra bit more they at least tried to put towards it. We can both agree that none of it is perfect, that is for sure.

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No I think it's good that he's over the delusion, because it makes no sense, though it took him a long time to realize that. My problem is that it still should be a gigantic question because she IS connected to the guys who literally killed everyone he loved, which was a driving force behind his character for most of the story. It's really, really weird to have no questions about that and have her clarify, particularly when she seems to be in a conversational state of mind. Does Dimitri just not think about it all of a sudden, when the person with the most answers is... right there?

srsly wat

Yep. Only Golden Deer seems to give a damn about them, both people there, Edelgard and Dimitri, can't be bothered. I agree, it is not good. At all.

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It IS difficult to make a popular antagonistic female character simply due to gender conventions when it comes to ladies in leadership roles. They deserve more credit beyond "that's because she was marketed more and she's a hot girl!" Which also exemplifies some disappointing gender conventions. If she was written poorly, the debates over her character here would be very different.

For sure post-release credit has to due with her actual character. Before the game is released? Marketing and appearances is all that are present. Don't twist my words here, I'm referring to people talking before release and those going into the game for the first time. FEH voting gauntlets are dominated by women, particularly attractive ones, and the yearly FEH polls that span across every character from the series involve like twice as many votes on the female side compared to the males. The point is, eyes have been on Black Eagles, for better and for worse, long before people have actually gotten a hold of the story and characters. If you look at the Let's Plays, Black Eagles is by FAR the most represented of being the first chosen playthrough, and Blue Lions comparatively rare. I see people all the time point out that people's opinions often reflect the order in which they have played. I contradict that however, so it can't be completely true, but its a trend people often comment on.

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And no, I think "overrated" is befitting. It's getting lauded as the best route in this very topic, and elsewhere - only me and Thane seem to be the vocal skeptics here... and I know I chose BL after my GD run because people were going on about how great the storytelling is because it's more connected to the overarching plot.

It's... really not. 

Some topics on this website with a small amount of people being the criteria for being overrated and not the actual statistics the game conveniently provides is something we're going to have to just disagree with I guess. And as for myself I've seen another forum, and reddit, and my anecdotal experience hasn't been Blue Lions being heralded above the others.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[Holder of the Heel]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I've only experienced two routes so far (Black Eagles and Blue Lions) and I really enjoyed both! I have a mixture of agreements and disagreements.

Pro #1: Hmm, I don't think I agree with this one. Sure, Lonato and Miklan connect directly with Faerghus and thus Dimitri, but from a story-telling perspective they connect more directly with Edelgard and her desire to oppose the church and destroy crests as the arbiters of social order. I loved the ground-view of seeing her reactions and comments on these events and how they set the stage for what she is planning to do, and of course build to Rhea as her main antagonist.

These connections still exist in non-Edelgard routes because they serve as fuel for their antagonist's motivation, but you're right that getting to see the antagonist's commentary on these events is more appropriate in building that motivation. So... yeah, fair enough. 🙂

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Pro #2: Agreed with this one. Exploring Dimitri's relationship to Edelgard gives this route some effective emotional gravitas. The scene in which Dimitri and Edelgard face off prior to Enbarr to discuss why they each are doing what they are doing, and the ending is beautiful.

Pro #3: Agreed with this one as well. I loved watching Dimitri's mask crack in late part 1 until after a final series of betrayals he becomes a shattered husk of a man who his allies want and arguably need to place their trust in, but with great reservations since he's so obviously unhinged. I can't recall seeing much like else like it in this medium, and certainly in this series. He overcomes this eventually, but not in a treacly way, and the endgame Dimitri is obviously still permanently scarred, tears up at the liberation of Faerghus, and offers lines like "after everything, will I ever truly deserve to be happy?" So good.

Yep I am not ashamed to admit I caught some feels! Only time I caught some elsewhere was ironically when putting down Dimitri in Crimson Flower, and that was before I cared for him and knew his deal. It just felt sad. Same with Claude, but mostly because I regret doing it knowing that I could have easily prevented it haha. But sadly that doesn't actually change anything I don't think.

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Con #1: Honestly? This is a pro for me. You know what I don't care about in Fire Emblem? Cults full of evil (and usually ugly) men doing evil things for evil reasons. To be perfectly honest they helped ruin the plots of Fire Emblem 4, 7, 13, and Echoes for me, to varying degrees. Contrasted with the excellent grey villainy of Edelgard and Rhea, they're downright childish. I don't really care about them at all. I haven't played Golden Deer/Church yet, so y'know maybe I'll be eating my words later. The game's writing has high overall quality and maybe they'll even make the Slitherers work. But I doubt it. Dimitri's antagonist is NOT the Slitherers, even if they may be responsible for Duscur. It's Edelgard, and the wrtiers knew this and embraced it. Good for them. And hey Dimitri did end up killing two of the Slitherer leaders without even knowing it!

You... make an interesting point here. Never in Blue Lions and Black Eagles is it just "kill the ugly bad men". And yeah when I typed that I was a dummy and didn't realize that Thales was already dead and thus going to battle their leader is... not really possible lol. It's relatively not even a big deal with these guys because I believe in both routes where the HQ is wiped out, they still persist as a group, so it's not even a genuine conclusion anywhere. Bleh.

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Con #2: On the other hand, I agree with this one. Edelgard just leaves Rhea sitting in her basement for five years, and when you finally rescue her she doesn't even appear on screen? It's very strange, given her importance to the world. To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with this not being a route about Rhea, but narratively if that's the choice I think it would be better if Rhea was just killed off. It'd have the added bonus of causing a few other characters to become revenge-fueled (Catherine for instance) which would create opportunities to examine them in parallel with Dimitri.

Wow, I like that. IF she had to not be in there, having her die and cause others to reinforce the theme of vengeance would have been a nice touch. Good idea!

P.S. Don't feel discouraged about Golden Deer. Claude + Rhea info + epic final boss encounter make it worthwhile in my opinion. As for Church... yeah I don't know.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, I'm not discouraged! I'm eagerly and actively playing it now. 🙂

Thank you for your reply by the way.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Dark Holy Elf

[Crysta]

6 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

His mentality and actions are reactionary. Definitely not good, don't get me wrong, but antagonizing forces are the source of the conflict, so by definition it has to be the Empire in part 2 and the mole people in part 1. In the end, his damage pales in comparison to the one that started the war. I'd say that it can be claimed he's just as antagonistic post time skip before he stops being insane, since he is currently not in a state of wanting to get out of the conflict. But by the end, he wants to stop but has no choice because the Empire won't consider peace. Whether you define it by being the source of conflict, causing the most damage, or wanting there to be conflict, overall or by the end Dimitri doesn't fit the bill as much like you say.

Writing a reactionary protagonist isn't particularly new or compelling, though. A child is reactionary. Most of the generic ones are reacting to some kind of conflict without any particular reflection on just why they're doing whatever they're doing. He is the least complex lord, imo, and the story suffers for it.

6 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Well that's the thing with opinions. People have all different kinds. You say they've pulled off that people love Edelgard, but you also say people don't like her. People hate Dimitri, and others enjoyed the journey with him. All of this is being acknowledged in this paragraph at once, so really I don't know what to say in response.

Edelgard isn't a good person but she's a well-written character. Dimitri is ultimately a good person but a poorly written character. I like me a good villain just as much as I like a good hero. And yes, opinions are things. You were like "Blue Lions da best and here's why" and I'm like "nah and here's why".

And yes I naturally think my opinion is more correct than yours  - such is the nature of discussion on a forum. I don't particularly care to go around every thread and going "NO YOU'RE WRONG FOR ENJOYING THIS", but I felt this thread was more appropriate to offer skepticism. You're contending it's the best route and arguing for why, and I don't agree.

6 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

I definitely brought Claude and Edelgard into that as well. They just tried to do more with Dimitri arc wise in his route, whereas the other two exist in a more static state. There's not much more that can be stated here that we haven't already. You dislike they tried to do more because they didn't add in enough to back it up, I like they tried to do more and for that extra bit more they at least tried to put towards it. We can both agree that none of it is perfect, that is for sure.

I do appreciate they made the attempt and I prefer they try to do different things and fail than to not try at all, but I'm not gonna think it's good writing unless it is good writing. If you're going make your protagonist mentally break and go on killing sprees, you better put some legwork into the redemption arc and resolve the conflict. They don't really do either. The end result is something shallow, not deep.

6 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Some topics on this website with a small amount of people being the criteria for being overrated and not the actual statistics the game conveniently provides is something we're going to have to just disagree with I guess. And as for myself I've seen another forum, and reddit, and my anecdotal experience hasn't been Blue Lions being heralded above the others.

I'm judging the reviews I've seen already. The game has been out less than a month, so the amount of overrated-ness is yet to be seen. Won't be surprised if there's more criticism, though.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Crysta

[Ottservia]

16 hours ago, Crysta said:

tl;dr Blue Lions route writing is overrated. Change my mind.

Challenge accepted. Dimitri's character arc in blue lions is a simple yet effective typical revenge story. Dimitri is a character suffering from a lot of things like ptsd and survivor's guilt. It is due to those things he is pretty much consumed by the idea of revenge if only to finally try and move on from his grief and pain. Though pre-timeskip he doesn't show it too much. It does indeed slip on occasion but overall he can manage to remains cool, calculated, and composed. It is only when he is reminded of the tragedy of duscur from the events at remire village that his "true" nature begins to show itself. It really all revolves around his sense of justice. He absolutely despises the idea of killing innocence even for the sake of one's ambitions. A contradiction that may be but one that is acknowledged by Dimitri himself later in the story. He despises those who would kill and feel no remorse for doing so because it is that very mentality that got his family killed as well as the innocent people of duscur slaughtered. His utter disdain for this kind of injustice feeds into his lust for revenge and retribution making his inner 'darkness" grow ever bigger. Throughout the course of the story, it continues to fester and grow as he is forced to reface those feelings he had kept buried for all these years due facing numerous events that were indeed similar. It gets to a point that once he finds out the one he thought caused the tragedy(the flame emperor) is within his grasp, his mind shifts entirely towards a very tunnel-vision like focus as all he cares about is killing the flame emperor no matter who it may be. The flame emperor in his mind committed an atrocity that was beyond any form of forgiveness and a brutal death is the only form of atonement they can offer. Their actions slaughtered thousands of innocent lives and that to him is unforgivable so much to the point where he refuses to listen to reason and has convinced himself that he is correct even when Edelgard tries to tell him that she had nothing to do with it. Like I said at this point, he has one singular focus and that is to kill whoever was the cause of the tragedy of duscur all those years ago. When Edelgard(someone he once knew and trusted) is revealed to be what he thinks is the object of his revenge. He goes insane. All of that pain, misery, and hatred he's kept bottled up for all these years finally explodes in one huge maniac rampage. It's at this point in the story where the beast finally shows his true colors. Dimitri is nothing but beast that lusts for retribution for those commit such acts of injustice. This is only amplified within the five year timeskip where for FIVE WHOLE YEARS he wanders the world wallowing in his own despair, loneliness, and misery which only serves to amplify those things. In this time frame he slaughters countless imperial soldiers out of what he feels is retribution for all those they have killed without remorse so he kills them without remorse. And yes, it is contradictory but the thing is Dimitri understands that. He knows how inhuman he's become. He states as much numerous times when you meet back up with him the timeskip. Even his death quote reads as "A fitting end for a beast like me" or something to that effect. Though he may be aware of it that still doesn't make it right which is something he comes to realize this after rodrigues death after the battle of gronder field. Rodrigue died bearing a sin that should've been for Dimitri himself. It's his fault that another person so close to him had died because in his hatred and rage he created the same thing in someone else and perpetuated that cycle of hatred. It kind of punishes him for that contradiction. It is only after realizing how his lust for hatred and revenge will cause nothing more than the viscous cycle he aimed to prevent that he is finally able to move on and truly atone for the sins he had made. It is then and only then that he can finally take down Edelgard cause he's finally done away with the contradictions on his ideals that he's held before while Edelgard hasn't therefore she loses. 

 

Not as detailed as an analysis as I would've liked but I think it still gets my point across.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Ottservia

[DragonFlames]

22 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Yeah I had actually completely missed the Arundel and Thales connection, and I see no reason why I should deny it for VA's being shared is the trend with hidden identities. In that case, that is oddly a slight point in favor of Azure Moon, but only in comparison to Crimson Flower. Verdant Winds has you fighting his true form in their HQ, so I have to echo the sentiment that you do in that Green Deer is arguably the winner, also having Rhea's backstory. My opinion is biased in that I just really enjoyed the journey more in the other in White Clouds and onward.

Oh, definitely. I loved the Blue Lion version of White Clouds especially due to those many personal connections (Sylvain, Ashe, Gilbert). It felt the most natural, somehow.

22 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Which really makes one wonder: would this game have just been better if it was all one route? Dimitri's transformation could have been paced because it wouldn't be rushed for plot progression. All the White Clouds BL connections. We could get Golden Deer revelations and fights. Byleth could return to normal with Rhea's death (or maybe Greenleth being the archbishop is better, I don't know). Every student is where they need to be and not helping someone else inexplicably. Nothing would end up rushed, shorter, or incomplete, and no reused/redone content. I guess we'll never know.

I think the game is fine the way it is. The way I see it, the devs and writers made sure every route had something special (the reveals in Golden Deer, White Clouds Blue Lion-connections, being able to side with what is arguably the villain of the entire thing in both Black Eagle routes (Edelgard and TWSITD on one side, Rhea on the other), so you have something to go back to. Sure, the reused maps are a bit disappointing, but I think the story justifies this well enough.

22 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

P.S. Yes, Those Who Slither in the Dark is annoying as hell to type, but the name has grown on me because I love when Hubert's VA says it lol.

Robbie Daymond is one of the best voice actors right now, for sure.

20 hours ago, timon said:

Crimson Flower spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

It's confirmed they are the same person, what is actually not confirmed anywhere is if Thales is the original Arundel or they replaced him like with Tomas and Monica. There's a small hint in a book in the library, where it's said that the noble Lord Arundel mysteriously stopped donating money. There's also the fact that he was leading the recent uprising of the nobles in the Empire, and the Duscur tragedy happened more or less at the same time.

All of this considered, I'm pretty sure the whole storyline of the game sets off when Thales replaces Arundel (which would also be when he kidnapped Edelgard), that's the first step of TWSITD's plan which is to disrupt both Kingdom and Empire with the purpose of weakening the Church.

 

Huh. Somehow I COMPLETELY missed that. Thank you!

20 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Church route is essentially Golden Deer without the Golden Deer. The maps are very similar for the most part and the purpose story-wise behind each map is very similar. The only significant differences are that Seteth and, to a lesser extent, Flayn gain actual story relevance in the Church route. Also, it's the only route that fully explains Byleth's past. I recommend spacing the GD route and Church route far apart because the similarities can become grating if played back-to-back. 

Damn it. I fell into that trap. Oh well... nothing to be done.

[Holder of the Heel]

8 hours ago, Crysta said:

Writing a reactionary protagonist isn't particularly new or compelling, though. A child is reactionary. Most of the generic ones are reacting to some kind of conflict without any particular reflection on just why they're doing whatever they're doing. He is the least complex lord, imo, and the story suffers for it.

Literally every other protagonist is reacting to what Edelgard is doing. They have their own agendas before the war, yes, like Dimitri trying to figure out who is behind the tragedy of Duscur and Claude researching Hero Relics and his desire to break down barriers between those on the "outside" and the "inside" (which ends up playing a rather minor part in the actual plot because the primary focus is the internal war of Fodlan and the pale, creepy baddies). I would say none of them aren't complex, but surprise surprise, I disagree he's the least though. He's the only one with an arc, and Claude is 100% the only squeaky clean one.

There's no doubt about Claude not being a baddy, and the ending speech during the fight is about as anime as you can get. He gives the initial impression of being shifty and scheming, but he never actually undermines anyone. His "plots" have almost no presence in the plot, for we are just simply told he does a good job of keeping the Alliance's many competing forces in balance. The concept is interesting, a schemer that does so out of the motivation for no-violence whatever the cost, but it's never front and center in any route. Damn I wish it was, because he'd probably be my favorite. "Schemers" have the potential to be very interesting for me. This isn't me hating on him, but with reference to complexity, he fits the bill the least, and the most complex motivation he has isn't really explored, but rather just something he says he believes in and is used in a post-game story snippet.

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Edelgard isn't a good person but she's a well-written character. Dimitri is ultimately a good person but a poorly written character. I like me a good villain just as much as I like a good hero. And yes, opinions are things. You were like "Blue Lions da best and here's why" and I'm like "nah and here's why".

Well written, yes and no. Her failure to consider other means than assassination, war, kidnapping, etc. at her young age is pretty baffling and it's hard to definitively say it's wholly bad writing or good writing in my opinion when we question motivations and logic, just as you are with Dimitri. I think when people question the character, decisively saying it isn't a discussion of whether she is written well is a bit arbitrary, and that the quality of a villain is in how close they can get for justifying the bad things they do, and if they don't come anywhere close, then that is a poor villain and therefore not a well written one. You express surprise that people have some vitriol over Edelgard. You can say it is sexism, and sure I don't know the hearts of people typing on their keyboard, but speculating they all have unseen biases underneath whatever objections they have is the same as not giving actual substance enough credit as you mentioned before when I brought up Black Eagle's immediate saturation, and I'd be inclined to think such biases can swing both ways regardless, knowing the FE fanbase from three years of FEH.

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And yes I naturally think my opinion is more correct than yours  - such is the nature of discussion on a forum. I don't particularly care to go around every thread and going "NO YOU'RE WRONG FOR ENJOYING THIS", but I felt this thread was more appropriate to offer skepticism. You're contending it's the best route and arguing for why, and I don't agree.

Well that's not what I was lost about. I appreciate your thoughts and discussion. Ultimately though, this isn't about me trying to prove people wrong for enjoying what they enjoy, as you say. Terms like overrated and underrated are not entirely words I like to wield.

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I do appreciate they made the attempt and I prefer they try to do different things and fail than to not try at all, but I'm not gonna think it's good writing unless it is good writing. If you're going make your protagonist mentally break and go on killing sprees, you better put some legwork into the redemption arc and resolve the conflict. They don't really do either. The end result is something shallow, not deep.

I'm judging the reviews I've seen already. The game has been out less than a month, so the amount of overrated-ness is yet to be seen. Won't be surprised if there's more criticism, though.

There are reviews that measure the routes, eh? I'll be sure to try and spot some of the most viewed/circulated ones and see what they say.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Holder of the Heel

[Landmaster]

18 hours ago, Crysta said:

I haven't gotten around to playing the Black Eagles yet, but in spite of it being a shortened route it seems have enough to make it's anti-hero developed enough to make her route the most popular and give her the biggest fanbase. It's not like they're incapable of pulling it off, but it seems they decided they just didn't have to (and they might be right lol).

tl;dr Blue Lions route writing is overrated. Change my mind.

 

Don't particularly care if you find Blue Lions overrated and I have no desire to change your mind~ However, I will argue against Edelgard being popular and having the biggest fanbase because of her Route. BE was always the most popular house before the game released and it remained that way afterwards. They are still the most popular House. Nothing changed that. The popularity was pretty much always BE > GD > BL in terms of House popularity and it was always due to the characters in the house, not anything exceptional about  the Route itself compared to others.

[Crysta]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Dimitri's character arc in blue lions is a simple yet effective typical revenge story. Dimitri is a character suffering from a lot of things like ptsd and survivor's guilt...

This gigantic paragraph seems to just be telling me what his character is and what his arc is supposed to be? I've played the route. I know what it is. People don't seem to be aware of just how strange it is that he completely forgets about the group who enacted the tragedy that utterly traumatized him and doesn't seem at all interested in Edelgard's connection to them after he's "redeemed" himself, in spite of that betrayal also being key to him turning into a cruel murderer. Taking the story as a whole, it's not good, and the route is hyperfocused on Dimitri and his growth. It's a route whose basis is a bad character arc.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Literally every other protagonist is reacting to what Edelgard is doing. They have their own agendas before the war, yes, like Dimitri trying to figure out who is behind the tragedy of Duscur and Claude researching Hero Relics and his desire to break down barriers between those on the "outside" and the "inside" (which ends up playing a rather minor part in the actual plot because the primary focus is the internal war of Fodlan and the pale, creepy baddies).

Outside of interrogating that one prisoner who volunteered the information he had on Duscur, he seems to completely abandon this, actually. It is really just him reacting and doing little else. Near the end of his route it seems all he's concerned about is vanquishing Edelgard, saving his kingdom and being heroic again... but I still have yet to beat the last map, so maybe it'll all be piled on me at the end.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

I would say none of them aren't complex, but surprise surprise, I disagree he's the least though. He's the only one with an arc, and Claude is 100% the only squeaky clean one.

Just because someone has an arc, doesn't make them complex. Particularly if the arc is bad.

I would argue the other two lords do have arcs, but it's secondary to their ambitions. Dimitri is all about his arc until he finally decides to take his mantle as king, which is why I can't consider it the best of the three. It doesn't do well in it's primary aim. I know with Claude, at the very least, he's going to reveal just enough to get you to like him and trust him but the guy is on an entirely different wavelength than the other two when it comes to adaptability and maturity. I'm not surprised that I don't get great emotional turmoil from him that gives me better insight into his character, because it would feel out of place with someone who is rarely sincere and completely forthcoming.

But the game does give you insight into who he is and where it comes from, and why you're not likely to get a Dimitri mental break from him and why he's more morally aligned with ebil tyrannical Edelgard. Given Claude's background (abusive parents, numerous assassination attempts as a kid), I highly doubt he's squeaky clean, but if the game doesn't show his survival skills but merely imply they exist then it's speculation at best. I think he'd be dead already if he wasn't willing to do questionable things, but doing questionable things also brings inherent risks that may not make it worth it for him. Or he just doesn't truly enjoy killing people. Probably both.

Alas, the game doesn't actually delve into this. Compared to other two drama baskets and the bodies they pile up, I think he could kill a political rival or two on the sidelines and still come off as comparatively clean. I do believe he's a more complex character than Dimitri, even though the game doesn't go into great lengths to beat you over the head with an angsty character arc.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

Well written, yes and no. Her failure to consider other means than assassination, war, kidnapping, etc. at her young age is pretty baffling and it's hard to definitively say it's wholly bad writing or good writing in my opinion when we question motivations and logic, just as you are with Dimitri.

See if you're going to allow Dimitri to be flawed and immature and have good writing, you're going to have to allow that for Edelgard, too. She doesn't have to be wise and actually smart about her plans any more than Dimitri was/is (and holy shit was he not for awhile). There is a distinct difference between liking a person and liking their writing, particularly when it comes to villains or anti-heroes/villains. Assassinating political rivals to remove future obstacles is a logically sound move, but certainly not a morally sound one. I do find it amusing the game opens with a botched assassination plot that nearly resulted in her dying instead because she decided to try to parry with an axe with a dagger, though.

And that if we were normal we would have been ended by a brigand.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

I think when people question the character, decisively saying it isn't a discussion of whether she is written well is a bit arbitrary, and that the quality of a villain is in how close they can get for justifying the bad things they do, and if they don't come anywhere close, then that is a poor villain and therefore not a well written one.

If they're human justifications - arguments real life people would adopt in similar situations - then you're off to a good start. Edelgard fits the bill. They don't have to be justifications you yourself would adopt.

8 hours ago, Holder of the Heel said:

You can say it is sexism, and sure I don't know the hearts of people typing on their keyboard, but speculating they all have unseen biases underneath whatever objections they have is the same as not giving actual substance enough credit as you mentioned before when I brought up Black Eagle's immediate saturation, and I'd be inclined to think such biases can swing both ways regardless, knowing the FE fanbase from three years of FEH.

I agree that speculation alone doesn't do much. But you can challenge the reasons why people are significantly more forgiving of the certain character flaws of male characters than they are of female characters and draw your own conclusions from that. Going "it's because of the waifus" is also speculative and throwing aspersions on other players without really asking or knowing them.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[Flere210]

Dimitri murdering and Edelgard murdering are different. Dimitri even at his worst only kill people aligned whit the empire, peopl that are his enemies and are currently invading his homeland. Brutal guerrila warfare is not evil imo, even if the motivation is selfish. Edelgard's plan start a war that cause thousands of innocent victims. Dimitri himself would not act in that way if he would not be pushed over the edge by a war he never wanted to fight. 

We are comparing apples and orange. There is a whole comparisson bingo whit much better characters to compare whit Edelgard. Hell i don't really like Dimitri devolopment myself, but i just don't see him as a villain instead of an edgy anti hero. He became mad, selfish, violent, and a massive idiot but he remain focused on his enemies.  Personally really hate the punisher phase an think it should be handled far differently. 

But i still think that BL is likely going to be the best route simply ecause they seems to have by far the best pre-ts and they need to fuck up more than just Dimitri to make up for this headstart.

[LegendOfLoog]

41 minutes ago, Crysta said:

This gigantic paragraph seems to just be telling me what his character is and what his arc is supposed to be? I've played the route. I know what it is. People don't seem to be aware of just how strange it is that he completely forgets about the group who enacted the tragedy that utterly traumatized him and doesn't seem at all interested in Edelgard's connection to them after he's "redeemed" himself, in spite of that betrayal also being key to him turning into a cruel murderer. Taking the story as a whole, it's not good, and the route is hyperfocused on Dimitri and his growth. It's a route whose basis is a bad character arc.

He doesn't completely forget at all. The entire point of Dimitri's redemption arc is to live for the living, so why would it make sense for him to continue hunting for Those Who Slither in the Dark while there's a war going on that will decide the future of Fodlan? And on that point, his route makes it very clear that multiple groups were involved in the Tragedy of Duscur, including members of the nobility, TWSITD, and his own stepmother, who is likely dead at this point. He is well aware of this but decides that answer is enough. The amount of time that it would take to even discover every person involved and bring them to justice isn't practical during a war and would invalidate the entirety of his previous character arc. As for Edelgard's "connection" to them, what more does he even need to know? She's already claimed that she wasn't involved in the Tragedy of Duscur and knew nothing about it. Anything else related to them that he would want to know is either a) not something she would tell him since she and TWSITD are still allied or b) not incredibly relevant considering he still has a war to end. If he was still focused on the slitherers even after his arc, that would make his arc worse, not better.

I'm not saying that Azure Moon is a case of perfect writing though. For one thing, the time-skip is bungled across all routes because of how fast it takes place and how little setup there is to make it seem like five years. It's worse in Azure Moon though because Dimitri is the lord who needed that time most, especially with how jarring the transformation is. As it is, some of the things he say seem outlandish because the setup isn't there. I don't mind the initial suspicion considering Dimitri is completely possessed by his delusions at this point, but there are some weird lines that seem over the top, even with his trauma. Over the top writing is something fairly common in this game though (Claude's anime speech and how obviously evil TWSITD are), so I'm willing to give that a bit of a pass. Also, while I understand Dimitri needed a wake-up call, the way Rodrigue's death was executed floundered pretty hard. First off, it shouldn't have happened right next to Byleth, as it's already been established in-game and in-story that Byleth could have rewound time to stop it. Sure, it failed with Jeralt, but I don't think Fleche has a teleporting dubstep wizard ready to save her when the Creator Sword flies her way. And even without rewinding time, Rodrigue is more than capable enough to stop a little girl with a knife in ways that don't involve tackling it with his stomach. Not to mention that Fleche loudly declares her intent to get vengeance, and Rodrigue and Byleth are just kind of snoring as she does it apparently. 

All in all though, I still think Azure Moon is still handily above Crimson Flower and Silver Snow. Crimson Flower is interesting, but if you thought Azure Moon moves at a breakneck pace, Crimson Flower laps it. It doesn't have enough chapters to do what it sets out to accomplish and stuffs the rest into an unsatisfying epilogue. Silver Snow is, for most of the route, an inferior Verdant Wind that not even Seteth can save. Having a route focus on a silent protagonist in a game with actually interesting characters is just about the worst idea I've seen in this game. It doesn't become interesting until the end, but that's only because it has new information that isn't in any other route. Personally, I think it should have been less "Verdant Wind without the Golden Deer" and more "Crimson Flower without Edelgard." So for me, it's a tossup between Verdant Wind and Azure Moon for top spot. After those two, Crimson Flower and then Silver Snow. As interesting as Edelgard is, her route just feels incomplete. Silver Snow is about as interesting as Byleth. 

[Crysta]

38 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

As for Edelgard's "connection" to them, what more does he even need to know? She's already claimed that she wasn't involved in the Tragedy of Duscur and knew nothing about it. Anything else related to them that he would want to know is either a) not something she would tell him since she and TWSITD are still allied or b) not incredibly relevant considering he still has a war to end. If he was still focused on the slitherers even after his arc, that would make his arc worse, not better.

She claimed she wasn't a part of it right after her reveal, and Dimitri clearly didn't believe that. Now he's okay with it, after spending five years a wandering murder hobo because of that perceived betrayal. Now that answer is acceptable, apparently, and he has no further questions about why she's associating with the clearly evil cult which destroyed his childhood... and now hopes she can be redeemed without, uh, asking questions about that.

I'm not contending that he should just drop everything and go after TWSITD and abandon the war. I'm saying his disinterest in the topic isn't very consistent with his behavior written up to that point, even with the redemption arc having been speedily handled.

EDIT: Edelgard herself vowed to make the TWSITD pay for Duscur, so I don't think she'd be reluctant to provide those answers at all, tbh. They're not exactly fond of each other.

Missed the other post.

58 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Dimitri murdering and Edelgard murdering are different. Dimitri even at his worst only kill people aligned whit the empire, peopl that are his enemies and are currently invading his homeland. Brutal guerrila warfare is not evil imo, even if the motivation is selfish. Edelgard's plan start a war that cause thousands of innocent victims. Dimitri himself would not act in that way if he would not be pushed over the edge by a war he never wanted to fight. 

We are comparing apples and orange. There is a whole comparisson bingo whit much better characters to compare whit Edelgard. Hell i don't really like Dimitri devolopment myself, but i just don't see him as a villain instead of an edgy anti hero. He became mad, selfish, violent, and a massive idiot but he remain focused on his enemies.  Personally really hate the punisher phase an think it should be handled far differently. 

But i still think that BL is likely going to be the best route simply ecause they seems to have by far the best pre-ts and they need to fuck up more than just Dimitri to make up for this headstart.

Actually no.

The first map you get him on he's intent on murdering the thieves pillaging Garreg Mach's ruins, with some tangent about how they deserve to die and he's willing to become a rat himself if it means delivering justice or something. As far as I know, those thieves had nothing to do with Edelgard, they just were thieves and got in his way.

In some ways that's actually -worse- because I don't think Edelgard goes out of her way to murder bad people who happen to just cross her path lol.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[Holder of the Heel]

 

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Just because someone has an arc, doesn't make them complex. Particularly if the arc is bad.

I would argue the other two lords do have arcs, but it's secondary to their ambitions. Dimitri is all about his arc until he finally decides to take his mantle as king, which is why I can't consider it the best of the three. It doesn't do well in it's primary aim. I know with Claude, at the very least, he's going to reveal just enough to get you to like him and trust him but the guy is on an entirely different wavelength than the other two when it comes to adaptability and maturity. I'm not surprised that I don't get great emotional turmoil from him that gives me better insight into his character, because it would feel out of place with someone who is rarely sincere and completely forthcoming.

But the game does give you insight into who he is and where it comes from, and why you're not likely to get a Dimitri mental break from him and why he's more morally aligned with ebil tyrannical Edelgard. Given Claude's background (abusive parents, numerous assassination attempts as a kid), I highly doubt he's squeaky clean, but if the game doesn't show his survival skills but merely imply they exist then it's speculation at best. I think he'd be dead already if he wasn't willing to do questionable things, but doing questionable things also brings inherent risks that may not make it worth it for him. Or he just doesn't truly enjoy killing people. Probably both.

Alas, the game doesn't actually delve into this, so at best it can only be speculation. Compared to other two drama baskets and the bodies they pile up, I think he could kill a political rival or two on the sidelines and still come off as comparatively clean. I do believe he's a more complex character than Dimitri, even though the game doesn't go into great lengths to beat you over the head with an angsty character arc.

You're right, having an arc doesn't inherently make them complex. But it helps to raise questions. And when questions are raised, they become complex.

My only question about Claude is why does he say the word scheme every other sentence yet he hasn't done jack squat except shoot arrows and crack jokes? Although the question for most people would be "Why isn't this man bisexual?"

It's very endearing, but not in a fascinating way that inspires thoughts. The fact that we went this long without even touching upon the topic of his character speaks to how little he raises questions or ideas comparatively speaking. Point me in the direction of where the debate on who Claude is and I may revise my position.

Right now, Edelgard in this edel-regard (Alois would be proud) seems to take the multi-layered cake. If only all those flavors meshed well and fused to give a good consistency!

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See if you're going to allow Dimitri to be flawed and immature and have good writing, you're going to have to allow that for Edelgard, too. She doesn't have to be wise and actually smart about her plans any more than Dimitri was/is (and holy shit was he not for awhile). There is a distinct difference between liking a person and liking their writing, particularly when it comes to villains or anti-heroes/villains. Assassinating political rivals to remove future obstacles is a logically sound move, but certainly not a morally sound one. I do find it amusing the game opens with a botched assassination plot that nearly resulted in her dying instead because she decided to try to parry with an axe with a dagger, though.

And that if we were normal we would have been ended by a brigand.

Yep! I've tried to say here and there in our conversation that I don't think Three Houses writing is perfect across the board, and this includes Dimitri. It is a matter of how much of the duration of the game it fills, the relationship between motivation and causation, and whether or not they can at least pull some heart strings. All stuff we've covered ad nauseum.

Dimitri and Claude aren't political rivals though, I'll get to that more in the next bit, but really she makes them rivals, and they would only otherwise be so already if her motivation is just wanting all the power for herself, and admittedly they hint at that with her war declaration and her making a point early on about how the other two are illegitimate off-shoots and my impression is she isn't crazy about their independence, particularly because she says the Church is where that comes from and she hates the Church--or maybe she hates the Church because she divided up her future power (though that interpretation is pure fancy, it is consistent enough).

As you say with your own example with the brigands, there's oddities with these "schemes". If only Edelgard almost dying from her own plot had caused some self-reflection. THAT would have been interesting! But nope, she never does doubt. She fires him for failing and then wants to find a replacement lol.

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If they're human justifications - arguments real life people would adopt in similar situations - then you're off to a good start. Edelgard fits the bill.

She was put in a pretty great position to change the world, if only she'd look around at her classmates.

Dimitri and Claude, future leaders of the other nations, all within her reach. Instead of having thoughts that favor homicide, why wouldn't she consider talking about their values? She'd quickly realize that neither of them value crests over actual merit. Claude doesn't like the Church, and Dimitri is upset with the Church's orders to execute Lonato and insists there had to be a better way and that if they had just talked they may have learned something. Several students hate crests, others are indifferent. Who is invested, Lorentz and Ferdinand? They both play second fiddle to their House leaders, and ultimately they value diplomacy as well. Connections for establishing a relationship moving forward with the most powerful people of Fodlan all on a silver platter and everyone more or less has the same tastes. If they had ate enough off the plate, sure Rhea could go violent, presuming she hadn't already stepped down for the sympathetic, crest-oblivious professor. If so, the Kingdom and Alliance wouldn't be trying to tear the Empire apart and rather would have actually considered opposing she who casts the first stone, against their undeniably good intentions in accordance with one another.

But no, we get stuff like the Holy Tomb battle "Hey I know we've hitherto been fighting for Rhea and stuff but stand down or die because I said so but by the way I don't want to do this, I did so much to prevent this situation".

It's explained by her just not trusting people so she would rather just threaten or kill them, like when Dimitri accuses her at the start of not having what it takes to rule well due to distrusting others. But being skeptical and just not looking at your surroundings are too different things. This is Bernie levels of blind to what is around you, but instead of being (mostly) for laughs and relatively harmless, it is deadly serious with Edelgard. The ideas and direction is all there, the ingredients for it: trauma, revenge, ideals, reunification, lust for power, savior complex, trying to store meaning/purpose to horrific loss in her life, not having a full lifespan. In a nebulous sense, she is impeccably well thought out. But as soon as she jumps off the paper of theory and into the game of practice, better not grab a magnifying glass and instead don Dimitri's mysterious eyepatch so as to not look too closely at the details. "But Dimitri--!" Yes, Dimitri too. It all just goes back to who I enjoyed the journey of the game with and reasons why one might have sympathy for a character and not another. But at this point I'm just beating Dorte's corpse over and over at this point.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Holder of the Heel