What new classes would you like to see in the next FE

[eclipse]

Or you can make it so that your birds don't ferry units - instead, they can be used as a long-distance trade (one item only).  Their STR determines what they can carry.

[Fabulously Olivier]

As for the weapon type of the tamer, how about a whip, alongside the traditional bow? This could also be used by other classes (thieves immediately spring to mind, as do dark mages). It would be an inherently 1-2 range weapon that is light, but weak.

 

The combat strength of the tamer would be similar to that of the dancer. These aren't combat units.

[ciphertul]

That would be interesting, I could see some crazy plans working around that. Whips eh? Would they hold to the standard iron/steel/silver types or would they be something different like hard or studded leather?

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, ciphertul said:

That would be interesting, I could see some crazy plans working around that. Whips eh? Would they hold to the standard iron/steel/silver types or would they be something different like hard or studded leather?

The metal could just refer to the material of the metal in the studded leather. And the handle. It could also be wire instead of leather.

[Flere210]

This kinda steps on my toes on having Urumis as the 1-2 range low might swords.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Flere210

[ciphertul]

Well it’s not class they could bring back wind edge or storm sword. I like the whip idea, they could easily make effect whips. The summoner coming back would be cool it could be like invoke where each character would summon a set class phantom.

[Alastor15243]

I want a sword flier class again. I'd love for Griffin Riders to come back as sword fliers, promoting to sword and lance using Griffin Lords and sword and dagger using Sky Pirates. With the reclassing system of recent games, I hate that fliers can basically never use the protag's personal weapon.

[Interdimensional Observer]

33 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Huh, that might work.  Different animals have different specialties.  The hyperactive puppy can ruin cavalry formations, while the armadillo refuses to die.

Perhaps have the different animals join up after certain events, and make it so that you can only take two to battle or something?

The Rover class of EOV suddenly springs to mind, though there is the III Wildling too. Whilst I wouldn't quite invent multiple animal weapon types, having some sort of mechanic that does encourage specialization in only a few pets would provide customization and balance to some good variety. Affection and individualized experience (perhaps distributable only at base like BEXP)?

Ideally, it'd be best to mix in some independent stuff the pets can do, and some stronger stuff that requires the owner be nearby or use their turn too.

• If we transplanted a Healing Hound Rover into FE, you could let the dog do backup healing when your one staffbot needs some aid. The advantage here is that the dog wouldn't take up a separate unit slot on the prep screen apart from its owner. So you'd get the dog to heal and a decent archer in the Rover themselves.
• But, when you need a mini-Fortify or anything other than a basic Heal, you move the dog and Rover close to each other for a powerful cooperative Combat Art/command Skill.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Rover class of EOV suddenly springs to mind, though there is the III Wildling too. Whilst I wouldn't quite invent multiple animal weapon types, having some sort of mechanic that does encourage specialization in only a few pets would provide customization and balance to some good variety. Affection and individualized experience (perhaps distributable only at base like BEXP)?

Ideally, it'd be best to mix in some independent stuff the pets can do, and some stronger stuff that requires the owner be nearby or use their turn too.

• If we transplanted a Healing Hound Rover into FE, you could let the dog do backup healing when your one staffbot needs some aid. The advantage here is that the dog wouldn't take up a separate unit slot on the prep screen apart from its owner. So you'd get the dog to heal and a decent archer in the Rover themselves.
• But, when you need a mini-Fortify or anything other than a basic Heal, you move the dog and Rover close to each other for a powerful cooperative Combat Art/command Skill.

I was thinking about things that staffbots can't do, like a small stat penalty to certain types of enemy units in a given area.

'sides, due to the way EO is structured, they can't have too many options WRT animal companions, or their skill tree would be even more obnoxious.

[Boomhauer007]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly I've considered a topic that asks, "is it even possible to balance around fliers?" Being able to ignore terrain costs is practically a sanctioned "walk through walls" cheat, and can trivialize otherwise good map design almost as hard as the warp staff. 

Re: penalty terrain for fliers, Radiant Dawn did use clouds in II-P, and Conquest had that one Hinoka map, but there hasn't been much else. Hm... what about a map that used Mr. Fuga's wild winds, but in a way that only affected fliers? Like, if the wind is blowing from the north, then moving north one tile costs 3 move instead of 1. I don't think Fire Emblem has done asymmetric tiles (that cost more to cross one way than the other, or are even impassible in one direction), but I would love to see it.

I think it was actually birthright, but I was specifically thinking of the map where the dragon veins triggered the tornados that hindered only fliers. although the Hinoka map is also one. I would say the issue with conquest is you always have control of when fliers are hindered since it's all DV controlled. 

There are also some maps in 11 and 12 that have so many ballista that fliers are a wasted effort on the map, but that only works one map at a time. 

But those are all temp solutions, I kind of agree that it's nearly impossible to truly balance a class set that has such a comical level of movement advantage over the others. 

[ciphertul]

In fate/awakening/3H the balancing comes down to more or less player discipline, where I feel previous games made the class more important. That is why I would take reclassing out. Rework classes and make them more important again, you could have an OP class but if the character didn’t have good growth that would balance a bit better. Instead of just reclass and fix growths.

[Flere210]

Balancing flyers is not hard. They just need to not have good enought combat, so their mobility means that alone they can only be useless everywhere and they can only do shit in support of other classes. 

[ciphertul]

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Balancing flyers is not hard. They just need to not have good enought combat, so their mobility means that alone they can only be useless everywhere and they can only do shit in support of other classes. 

I may be alone in this but I love the falcoknight class and I do not ever want to see that sad excuse of a flier from Fate/Awakening again. Shifting away from combat would make the opposite true, I don’t see a team slot open for a unit that can’t maintain themselves outside of dedicated healers. But if you think re-tooling fling roles is a good idea how would you implement it?

[Flere210]

3 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

I may be alone in this but I love the falcoknight class and I do not ever want to see that sad excuse of a flier from Fate/Awakening again. Shifting away from combat would make the opposite true, I don’t see a team slot open for a unit that can’t maintain themselves outside of dedicated healers. But if you think re-tooling fling roles is a good idea how would you implement it?

I'll just make them weak. Str cap just too low to ORKO frail units, speed cap just too low to double fast enemies. Actually i would redesign the class system a lot, but the gist of it is the more you move the weaker you are. 

And flyers in fates and awakening are very good. 

[ciphertul]

6 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I'll just make them weak. Str cap just too low to ORKO frail units, speed cap just too low to double fast enemies. Actually i would redesign the class system a lot, but the gist of it is the more you move the weaker you are. 

And flyers in fates and awakening are very good. 

That really doesn’t  help, just make them shittier isn’t a good rework. Falcoknight’s Str ain’t that high in the first place, Spd is all they really have outside of movement. But Fates/Awakening Falcoknights where easily the worst class in those games, everything they could do something else does better and with more options elsewhere. Dark Flier and Malig Knight are different but I feel they are well enough balanced stat wise.

[Flere210]

1 minute ago, ciphertul said:

That really doesn’t  help, just make them shittier isn’t a good rework. Falcoknight’s Str ain’t that high in the first place, Spd is all they really have outside of movement. But Fates/Awakening Falcoknights where easily the worst class in those games, everything they could do something else does better and with more options elsewhere. Dark Flier and Malig Knight are different but I feel they are well enough balanced stat wise.

The point is that if they are even just decent, they invalidate almost anything else in efficient play. If they are slightly worse than decent, they get fed boosters and then invalidate almost anything else. 

Flyers are top tier in every game bar none when it comes to efficient play, because as long as their stats are not shit they are the cornerstone of any strat. So they have to be shit to be balanced in LTC. I seriously don't known what make you think that pegasus knights are bad in awakening when they can get stats boosts for rescuing, and flying rescue is enought to make them high tier.

And even if they came up as unplayable, archers and armor fans had their classes being shit for 15 games, flyers fan can have a couple of games where their class is the worst.

[ciphertul]

 

8 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The point is that if they are even just decent, they invalidate almost anything else in efficient play. If they are slightly worse than decent, they get fed boosters and then invalidate almost anything else. 

Flyers are top tier in every game bar none when it comes to efficient play, because as long as their stats are not shit they are the cornerstone of any strat. So they have to be shit to be balanced in LTC. I seriously don't known what make you think that pegasus knights are bad in awakening when they can get stats boosts for rescuing, and flying rescue is enought to make them high tier.

And even if they came up as unplayable, archers and armor fans had their classes being shit for 15 games, flyers fan can have a couple of games where their class is the worst.

If you can only have fun playing an efficient playthru and putting stock on tier lists then I know I can’t reason with you. I play for fun, I don’t care about top tier classes and strats. I use the units I like regarding of class and potential, having played as long as a have I never thought knight and archer where bad. If you don’t like fliers don’t use them, efficient no, but that is your choice.

Edited January 24, 2020 by ciphertul

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

14 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

That really doesn’t  help, just make them shittier isn’t a good rework. Falcoknight’s Str ain’t that high in the first place, Spd is all they really have outside of movement. But Fates/Awakening Falcoknights where easily the worst class in those games, everything they could do something else does better and with more options elsewhere. Dark Flier and Malig Knight are different but I feel they are well enough balanced stat wise.

Not even close. They got the Lancefaire skill (in Awakening) to increase their damage output, and Darting Blow (in Fates, as PK) to basically always double on player phase. They had 8 movement that ignored terrain, that's so good. Even if one wasn't good at combat, you could have your combat unit "pair up" with them, fly eherever you want, and then "switch" so your combat unit can attack.

Worst promoted class in Awakening was probably Snipers or Generals.

In Fates, I'm gonna say Basara or Oni Chieftain.

[Flere210]

13 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

 

If you can only have fun playing an efficient playthru and putting stock on tier lists then I know I can’t reason with you. I play for fun, I don’t care about top tier classes and strats. I use the units I like regarding of class and potential, having played as long as a have I never thought knight and archer where bad. If you don’t like fliers don’t use them, efficient no, but that is your choice.

You can play weak units. Is what most people do. But class balance is not about what you do for fun, is about what is more effective. And trying to male all classes equally effective cannot be done whitout toning down high movement classes, as we see in genealogy.

Does not matter how much of a combat gods units like Ayra or Lewyn are, they will always be inferior because by the time they reach the battlefield the horse squad already killed everything. Even if you give an armor knight 100 strenght, 80 speed and 150 defense, he would be a niche mid tier in Genealogy. That how powerful movement is.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Flere210

[ciphertul]

Like I said everything they are meant to do can be done better with something else, and genealogy is a bit of an outlier as the map are catered to mounted unit do to size. Movement is as important as you make it, player discipline is what make the difference. Don’t nerf a class when everyone jumps on the bandwagon as over powered, use them less or change how you use them. It’s a game, Fun is the purpose of games, X unit is mounted and strong but why would balance matter to someone who prefer unit Y who will never be as strong as X. Balance in the end is subjective, you think Fate/awakening Fk are great I think they are terrible. How you balance is different then how I balance.

[X-Naut]

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Balancing flyers is not hard. They just need to not have good enought combat, so their mobility means that alone they can only be useless everywhere and they can only do shit in support of other classes. 

Stats are a band-aid solution, if you really want to hit fliers you have to curtail their mobility. They're the only movement type that (virtually) never has to worry about obstacles to their advance.

And while on the topic of fliers, I'd like to see them try staffbot pegasus riders that promote to staff/bow units. No combat capabilities unpromoted, their mobility being more of a means to get to and away from the action. Post-promotion, they have a great mage-killing tool but can no longer fight at 1-range and are hard-countered by archers. Probably broken if they don't foot-lock certain weapons and staffs but that's something they need to do more often.

Edited January 24, 2020 by X-Naut

[ciphertul]

I was thinking of maybe having terrain effects doubled against fliers? You know getting that peg into a dense forest while trying to attack would be pretty hard.

[Flere210]

It would be impossible actually. Eagles are already too big to fly in a forest. I can see a large enought wyvern buldozing trough the branches maybe, but not a pegasus. 

 

[ciphertul]

Yea, fliers can’t attack units in forests or woods, and maybe the doubled effect for gates and forts?

[X-Naut]

I was thinking give them terrain with a higher movement cost than 1, like

• Peaks, with the elevation justifying the extra effort to cross them. They're already a fly-or-bust terrain outside of bandits in the GBA.
• Indoors, I see no reason why they shouldn't have a 1.5 tile cost floor or be like RD. Narrower areas and doorways would penalize them even harder.
• Weather is rare among the series but if it returns it should hit fliers the hardest, or hit them exclusively.
• On the once-a-game lava maps, stress from the heat could make it harder to cross and should forbid them from stopping over it.
• If you're feeling crazy, give ballistas a 3-tile zone where flier movement is drastically reduced because they're so scared of the things.