Religion.

[Mr. Sirius]

what do you mean? i don't believe in any god and wont until im shown proof

@Phoenix: The only people that have to show proof are those that believe in a god. Show proof that he/she/it is real, otherwise there's nothing that makes your god any less made-up than the others.

I don't know what your understanding of the word "God" is all about, but just to use the power of logic, I would say "if there is no God, God cannot be known". Now, you're asking for proof. I wonder if you are ready to accept teleological reasoning or even a cosmological reasoning, for that matter. As science has stated, things do not just appear like magic. Somebody has to make them. Just for your thought, who made the stars?

[Phoenix]

I don't know what your understanding of the word "God" is all about, but just to use the power of logic, I would say "if there is no God, God cannot be known". Now, you're asking for proof. I wonder if you are ready to accept teleological reasoning or even a cosmological reasoning, for that matter. As science has stated, things do not just appear like magic. Somebody has to make them. Just for your thought, who made the stars?

This is an argument they would chalk up to philisophical crap. Don't bother, I've been down this road before. They want a long post explaining every logical reason why there is a God. It can include nothing of Creationism, faith, a wait and see attitude, or anything out of the Bible.

What was with the post about how God being all seeing meant he had to stop people from sinning? What would we learn if we didn't destroy our lives through countless mistakes? Personally, I agree with a put your hand on the stove and get burned approach to learning, as taking your parent's word for it never works indefinitely. Raise a kid and see for yourself. Not that the fire bird is a parent

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't know what your understanding of the word "God" is all about, but just to use the power of logic, I would say "if there is no God, God cannot be known". Now, you're asking for proof. I wonder if you are ready to accept teleological reasoning or even a cosmological reasoning, for that matter. As science has stated, things do not just appear like magic. Somebody has to make them. Just for your thought, who made the stars?

3rd Paragraph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars

I don't consider something as existent unless it's proven. I suppose there may or may not be any exceptions to this but right now I can't think of any.

[Phoenix]

I don't consider something as existent unless it's proven. I suppose there may or may not be any exceptions to this but right now I can't think of any.

Does Waldo exist? I used to find him alot, but now I'm not sure if he was ever really there

Seriously though it doesn't matter. Even if God exists, he CAN'T be proven. And why would he want to show himself to a bunch of people who wouldn't want a God in the first place?

Question: Whether or not there is a God, would you WANT there to be one? Not that crazy burn you in hell for growing up with athiest parents but a God in general?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Does Waldo exist? I used to find him alot, but now I'm not sure if he was ever really there

Seriously though it doesn't matter. Even if God exists, he CAN'T be proven. And why would he want to show himself to a bunch of people who wouldn't want a God in the first place?

Question: Whether or not there is a God, would you WANT there to be one? Not that crazy burn you in hell for growing up with athiest parents but a God in general?

I believe that the general answer to this question is Yes.

[Phoenix]

I believe that the general answer to this question is Yes.

Now how'bout that burn your ass in hell for being an athiest one?

Even me, the illogical faithful fire bird, does not believe in this one.

[Esau of Isaac]

You speak of all this "logic."

Reasonable people tend to do that.

Tell me, how can you go through life using only logic?

I don't use only logic. I just apply fair reasoning and attempt to for logical conclusions to situations I encounter.

Science doesn't have the answers, and neither do you.

In any situation that has been discussed regarding the validity of any event discussed, I challenge you to bring one point --one point-- forth where your conclusions are more reasonable and true than my own.

Science cannot tell us how the first atom came to be, only a lame hypothesis can be formed.

That's much better than your spiritual nonsense.

And don't talk about cannots when you don't know what you're talking about.

Speaking of, science also has no way to prove the Big Bang actually happened.

The Big Bang has a reasonably large amount of evidence in its favor. Why can't it ever prove it occurred?

I DO believe people evolve. I SORTA believe we came from monkeys, for the sole reason that science has not come far enough yet to prove that we have evolved from said animal.

God damnit, for the last time, we did not come from fucking monkeys.

I agree completely. As I said before, I am Catholic, and don't believe completely in the whole Adam and Eve thing. But still, how do you explain how the first organic molecule appeared? It would have to come from a non-living thing. And abiogenisis was disproved a long time ago. Rocks don't evolve into living things. So the evolution argument is pointless here.

Abiogenesis was never proven wrong. You're thinking of spontaneous generation, which is not what the current theories of abiogenesis entail. And evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.

Learn what you're talking about.

And if you believe in the Big Bang and science, how did the Big Bang occur? One of the most famous laws in science is matter cannot be created or destroyed. And Einstein's work connected matter and energy, so energy cannot be created/destroyed either. Therefore, some form of energy had to fuel the Big bang. And where did that energy come from, and where did the next energy come from. Somewhere along the line, the laws of physics are disregarded. And if that doesn't support some kind of intelligent design, I don't know what does.

You're just adding another layer of complexity. If God created the Universe, who created God. What's that? God didn't need to be created? Then neither did the Universe.

You don't attempt (rather childishly, might I add) to adhere to science and then give it a swift kick to the balls with bullshit like your God is above causality.

And yes, people can't understand any God. They do not function under the same laws as we do, so how can we expect to? With a divine being, 1 could equal 3 or 1 could equal 10. All logic we use is pointless when focusing on a being ABOVE science.

You can never logically conclude that something is above logic; your idea that God can be above logic is fucking ridiculous, and without merit.

*Cough* Laws of gravity can be extremely false! Throw a baseball 7 miles per second, and it will no longer be in control of [Earth's] gravity.

What?

What?

What?

Jupiter has no real surface, just gases with a semi-solid core, if we were not already killed by gasses and pressure, we would be going fast enough to go right through the entire planet. Granted we would be crushed in by the core...but pretend it is fully gas.

Seriously, what are you saying?

The Big Bang in my opinion, is obsolete. Believing in the Big Bang is like believing in God ya know. A small, small dense ball just suddenly exploding out of nowhere and creating the never-ending universe, yeah right. You believe it happened, so why can't people like us believe in God?

Because there is no evidence that God exists, and there are gratuitous amounts of information that point to the Universe existing as one incredibly dense point.

The Big Bang says nothing about it appearing out of nowhere; God damn, can any of you that talk against science actually learn the theories you're discussing?

Firstly, God made EVERYTHING, thus EVERYTHING being existent.

You haven't proven that.

In case people didn't know, the people who wrote the Bible were obviously educated, thus knowing science pretty well.

Hahahaha

Ahahahaha

Hahahahaha

Just a thought, logic today can be illogical tomorrow. But faith will NEVER end.

I know, it's like that gum that you just can't get off your shoe no matter how hard you scrap it.

Don't act like your faith is better, because the only reason that it's lasted is because it's based around ignorance.

Never heard of forgiveness? In my opinion, homosexuality isn't as bad a sin as even telling someone you hate them.

It's bad enough for God to call for the death of any and all homosexuals.

God forgives all, no matter what. A person might not forgive you, but He does.

He's so forgiving, guys, that he commits genocide and infanticide on several occasions.

God, I wish I was as benevolent as that son of a bitch.

But wouldn't that ball leave the atmosphere, and not being sucked back into Earth's gravitational pull?

For fuck's sake, do you even know what the laws of gravity are?

I NEVER stated the laws of gravity are false, I'm not a fucking retard. I'm just saying "What comes up, must come down" isn't always true.

You have no idea what you're saying, and you should be ashamed you ever brought this topic up.

Seriously, stop. If you're being a troll, it's time to stop acting stupid.

Firstly, because scientists can do it doesn't mean it can happen in nature. And if it did happen, what are the odds of something that complex happening in nature without something (*cough* God) promting it to happen.

Pretty high, seeing as how organic molecules are known to form in space.

Secondly, I know we can turn matter into energy and that wasn't what I was saying at all. And I am pretty sure the Big Bang did happen. But what came before that?

Asking what transpired before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the North Pole. You're asking what is before time, which is by its very nature impossible.

All that mass had to come from somewhere. And the energy released in the Big Bang came from somewhere as well. Neither mass or energy can be created. And when we find where that energy came from, we'll wonder where the next energy source came from. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any force inside the laws of nature. Which pretty much shows either are laws are totally wrong or some force above science exists.

You are well aware that you cannot rely on conventional rules of causation and then throw them out for your God, right?

And look up. The Big Bang has to do with the moments after the singularity of space and time.

And finally, God can create an unstoppable force and immovable object because he functions above all our scientific laws.

No he can't, because by their nature they can't meet. It's an impossibility, and until you can explain why he can do such a thing rather than saying "DURR HE'S GOD", I'll dismiss your view as moronic at best.

The whole idea that he is three people in one pretty much shows that.

How does that show he can defy the definitions of statements?

What I said was about the same dude. I can make a metaphor of the dense initial condition (or value) as a ball. Then, when it "explodes" it expands and expands and expands.

No, it was not the same at all. You have the idea that there was this actual explosion; the Universe has simply been expanding since the beginning of time.

You're reforming your words over time to make it look like you know what you're talking about, and it's irritating.

But the odds that suddenly, the first organic molecule would come from inorganic material is pretty slim.

Can you substantiate that claim?

And what I meant by evolution doesn't apply was that evolution can't explain how the first organic molecule came about because inorganic materials can't evolve.

Evolution has to do with living matter, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ABIOGENESIS.

Ara...with due respect to your erudition, I find that your argument is, at times, a sweeping assumption without giving real proof and, I suppose, you are guilty of several things.

1) You are guilty of anthropomorphism.

2) You are guilty of equivocation.

I wish that when you give examples, you should remember what you have said before.

Point out inconsistencies, and I'll fix them.

Seriously though it doesn't matter. Even if God exists, he CAN'T be proven. And why would he want to show himself to a bunch of people who wouldn't want a God in the first place?

God can never be proven because God is by nature an unfalsifiable and illogical being. That's not something that's a fault of logic, it's a problem with the inherent meaning of what a God is.

Question: Whether or not there is a God, would you WANT there to be one? Not that crazy burn you in hell for growing up with athiest parents but a God in general?

No, not really. That's too much power for anyone to have. I wouldn't want that power, why in the hell would I want someone to have total say in everything there is?

[Phoenix]

God damnit, for the last time, we did not come from fucking monkeys.

This alone makes my thoughts scream "AHA GRAM" Everything you do reeks of him. This is the first time I trusted my gut in like three weeks. Too bad I didn't use it for something more important :(

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Now how'bout that burn your ass in hell for being an athiest one?

Even me, the illogical faithful fire bird, does not believe in this one.

Assuming that this is a second part to this question:

Question: Whether or not there is a God, would you WANT there to be one? Not that crazy burn you in hell for growing up with athiest parents but a God in general?

My answer is Yes. If such a god did exist, then that means that me losing my faith and becoming an Atheist was wrong of me. I wouldn't like to be punished of course, but when I made my decision to be Atheist I figured there may be consequences and I will deal with them however I can.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Boo

[Defeatist Elitist]

Ironically, I would feel no sin or feeling of shame if God suddenly popped into existence and said "Hey, d00ds, I exist."

Because then God would become part of Science. You can never PROVE Science wrong, because if you do, it will instantaneously change to include your proof. That's how Science works. :D

[Phoenix]

Assuming that this is a second part to this question:

My answer is Yes. If such a god did exist, then that means that me losing my faith and becoming an Atheist was wrong of me. I wouldn't like to be punished of course, but when I made my decision to be Atheist I figured there may be consequences and I will deal with them however I can.

Keep in mind that I was a little vague with that question and should have put it like this.

Do you want there to be a God who would burn you in hell alive for all eternity for being raised against him as a child by your parents with virtually no hope of becoming a Christian?

There we go...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Keep in mind that I was a little vague with that question and should have put it like this.

Do you want there to be a God who would burn you in hell alive for all eternity for being raised against him as a child by your parents with virtually no hope of becoming a Christian?

There we go...

First, I wasn't "raised against him as a child" by my parents. I was born in a Catholic family and initially did believe in a god. Me being Atheist is through my own will, I started to hate god and then no longer believed.

My answer remains the same. If I was wrong in becoming an Atheist and I deserve to burn for it, then so be it.

[Phoenix]

First, I wasn't "raised against him as a child" by my parents. I was born in a Catholic family and initially did believe in a god. Me being Atheist is through my own will, I started to hate god and then no longer believed.

My answer remains the same. If I was wrong in becoming an Atheist and I deserve to burn for it, then so be it.

See that's the problem though. This is hell for eternity is a lack of mercy on God's part, it's actually the exact opposite of mercy. It's tyrannical and thoughtless torture. This God contradicts the Bible and shouldn't exist in Faith at all. Besides it's not like Heaven in the Catholic faith is all that great either. I strum a damn harp for trillions of years while the 144,000 sing carols to God or whatever. I'll pass and grab a ticket to pergatory. Raising all those dead babies will give me a good hobby. Well thanks for answering the question anyway

[Dr. Tarrasque]

See that's the problem though. This is hell for eternity is a lack of mercy on God's part, it's actually the exact opposite of mercy. It's tyrannical and thoughtless torture. This God contradicts the Bible and shouldn't exist in Faith at all. Besides it's not like Heaven in the Catholic faith is all that great either. I strum a damn harp for trillions of years while the 144,000 sing carols to God or whatever. I'll pass and grab a ticket to pergatory. Raising all those dead babies will give me a good hobby. Well thanks for answering the question anyway

That's reason enough for any1 to wanna avoid punishment.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I'd love to go to hell. If Christian's are right, then that's straight where I'm heading. But hey, Satan is an awesome guy. God is a stick in the mud who hates drugs, sex, and all that fun stuff. Satan loves that stuff, and he was brave enough to rebel against an all powerful entity. I bet Hell has a lot of swinging parties.

Hell > Heaven. COME SIN WITH ME! :D

[Florete]

I'd love to go to hell. If Christian's are right, then that's straight where I'm heading. But hey, Satan is an awesome guy. God is a stick in the mud who hates drugs, sex, and all that fun stuff. Satan loves that stuff, and he was brave enough to rebel against an all powerful entity. I bet Hell has a lot of swinging parties.

Hell > Heaven. COME SIN WITH ME! :D

God doesn't hate sex at all, he embraces it... when it's between a married couple. Why do you think he made that our only way to reproduce? No one ever said he hated drugs either. I know a Christian guy who also happens to be a smoker.

[Defeatist Elitist]

God doesn't hate sex at all, he embraces it... when it's between a married couple. Why do you think he made that our only way to reproduce? No one ever said he hated drugs either. I know a Christian guy who also happens to be a smoker.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude. I know.

The Christian Right however, disagrees, and if you take the Bible literally, you should partly. I mean, it basically states flatout that Sex for any reason other than procreation is wrong. It does of course tell you to do drugs though. :P

[Florete]

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude. I know.

The Christian Right however, disagrees, and if you take the Bible literally, you should partly. I mean, it basically states flatout that Sex for any reason other than procreation is wrong. It does of course tell you to do drugs though. :P

If you know, why did you state the opposite?

The Christian Right? My father is a preacher and he says sex is a good thing. I don't read the Bible, so what he says is what I know, and that's what I know. He literally called it a "gift."

[Phoenix]

It's not just for reproduction trust me. Don't believe the hype. It is just for married folks which is why I'm ichin to get hitched but still has other uses. You see those tv shows where couples are fighting like crazy then they suddenly look at each other... then BAM Sex on the spot. Hard to argue with your spoise when your having orgasms left and right.

[Phoenix]

He literally called it a "gift."

B)

[Defeatist Elitist]

If you know, why did you state the opposite?

The Christian Right? My father is a preacher and he says sex is a good thing. I don't read the Bible, so what he says is what I know, and that's what I know. He literally called it a "gift."

Lawl. Even I read the Bible. :D

Come on, most of the Christian Right is FOR abstinence only education, blah blah blah. Of course, I mean the heavy evangelicals, but they're the vocal ones.

I stated the opposite as an extreme view.

My point is, Satan embodies and encourages all those acts that give you pleasure without any form of restraint or discipline, therefore, if God and Satan did exist, I would prefer Satan. I mean, pleasure without consequence is awesome!

But it's kind of moot, since neither does exist...

[Phoenix]

No consequences?!

If I go out and fornicate like I usually feel like doing but don't because I'm thinking about my future spouse... I'm going to get a friggin STD! Just saying, there's consequences for the dumb unrestrained crap we do.

[Florete]

My point is, Satan embodies and encourages all those acts that give you pleasure without any form of restraint or discipline, therefore, if God and Satan did exist, I would prefer Satan. I mean, pleasure without consequence is awesome!

But it's kind of moot, since neither does exist...

Is there a historical book written by Satan or any of his followers that states how he does things? Considering hell exists, I find it hard to believe it would be at all enjoyable. He's not exactly a guy you would trust.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Is there a historical book written by Satan or any of his followers that states how he does things? Considering hell exists, I find it hard to believe it would be at all enjoyable. He's not exactly a guy you would trust.

The Bible basically says that Satan is the evil guy who encourages people to sin. God says Satan is a bad guy. I see no reason to trust God.

Ya know, we should probably drop this, I have a feeling we're not on the same page here.

I'd rather this stay a debate about truth.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Is there a historical book written by Satan or any of his followers that states how he does things? Considering hell exists, I find it hard to believe it would be at all enjoyable. He's not exactly a guy you would trust.

The bible pretty much says that Satan rebels against god and that Satan encourages what god discourages.

EDIT: Revan beat me to it.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Boo