Religion.

[Florete]

What is?

Nothing of course. Except the fact that the more Science progresses, the more he has to give up his faith. He can't really believe in an afterlife if it's been proven false, can he? He can't believe many things in the Bible because they've been proven entirely wrong. Etc.

And if someone hates Science for being pure fact, and totally unbiased, well, they can go back to being an animal, because that's where we are without it.

But none of that really has been proven, only shown that it shouldn't be possible. My father, the preacher, understands and agrees with a lot of scientific things. From what I've been told, the only thing that it takes to be a scientist is the desire to make new discoveries.

That's not what I meant; a lot of people don't like the brain capacity it takes to understand a lot of what Science is, so they just ignore it. I more meant that they hate learning it.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Just so we're clear on this regarding me...

I do not believe in an afterlife

I do not believe in eternal punishing, but rather eternal punishment

I do not believe in pagan rituals

I'll add more to the list later

Whaddya mean animals?! We're not animals without it! Mankind hasn't changed over the past 6,000 years! We're exactly the same in everything that we do! Technology doesn't make us any different. People worked with less logic back then but still used logic. Nothing's changed.

Dude. Every time you make any decision based on experience, logic, common sense, whatever, you are technically practising Science. Mankind would be nothing without it.

[Defeatist Elitist]

But none of that really has been proven, only shown that it shouldn't be possible. My father, the preacher, understands and agrees with a lot of scientific things. From what I've been told, the only thing that it takes to be a scientist is the desire to make new discoveries

Yes it has been "proven". This is a very typical religious argument. It's proven. Want me to explicitly show you how, step by step? I could.

[Florete]

Yes it has been "proven". This is a very typical religious argument. It's proven. Want me to explicitly show you how, step by step? I could.

Go ahead. Like I said, I'm pretty much undecided on what I believe. Can you convince me?

[Phoenix]

Dude. Every time you make any decision based on experience, logic, common sense, whatever, you are technically practising Science. Mankind would be nothing without it.

I didn't say we didn't have science, I said we haven't changed at the core of our being in the last 6,000 years. Humans are still the same, only now we have technology, and we're still dumb as hell.

[lolDeath]

If you really had done that, it likely would have been discovered long ago and the religion would have died out.

No, because many religious people operate on faith and are completely blinded by it. Religious is a wonderful thing, it can help you deal with how unfair the world is, answer any questions you have even with bullshit like "God has a plan", and even make you able to handle death. It makes no sense and many of the followers of it have none, and also many are raised (or what I call brainwashed) into it by their parents and it is very difficult for most people to see past that.

You've proven he's contradictory and therefore false by the widely accepted interpretation of the Bible. Not quite proven him non existent.

Read back, by that complete flaw in logic (people thinking something is possible no matter what) I proved that I could be Jesus Christ in the flesh. There is no reason to believe in most religion aside from simple fear of the unknown. You can not prove that Harry Potter did not exist, should people believe in him? What about Star Wars, you can't prove that it is not a true story, should people believe that? Of course not.

[Phoenix]

Planets in starwars are defined by one major feature, like deserts and forests. That alone makes it bs. Anywho, how's it going, Death?

[Florete]

No, because many religious people operate on faith and are completely blinded by it. Religious is a wonderful thing, it can help you deal with how unfair the world is, answer any questions you have even with bullshit like "God has a plan", and even make you able to handle death. It makes no sense and many of the followers of it have none, and also many are raised (or what I call brainwashed) into it by their parents and it is very difficult for most people to see past that.

I don't know. I think if there really existed substantial evidence that proved there was zero possibility of any God possibly existing, people would have been sensible enough to stop believing. That's my opinion anywho.

[YokaiKnight]

I don't know. I think if there really existed substantial evidence that proved there was zero possibility of any God possibly existing, people would have been sensible enough to stop believing. That's my opinion anywho.

There isn't. Gods as defined by some specific religions, though, can be logically shown nonexistent.

[Phoenix]

I'll get back in this tomorrow. I'm tired. Good luck with the loginators Red Fox :D

[Defeatist Elitist]

Go ahead. Like I said, I'm pretty much undecided on what I believe. Can you convince me?

Alright then. Biblical fallacies ahoy!

First off, no-one in their right mind still thinks the world is 6000 years old. It's generally accepted to be about 5 Billion years old.

Now, the Great Flood (or the Deluge, or whatever):

There is no fossil record of any time in this planet's history when every single modern species was wiped out by a flood. In fact, in the history of life, there has never been a planet wide flooding. And keep in mind, it claims that humans existed in this time (they were actually the cause of the flood). Great Flood is at best a metaphor. ie. It never happened. It *likely* was pulled from the myths of other religions or cultures, most likely the Epic of Gilgamesh or some earlier Sumerian texts.

Next up, I'll ask you a few questions to see what I do or don't want to go into...

Basically, what from the Bible do you believe?

Do you believe that God created all creatures as they are?

Do you believe in Adam and Eve?

What do you believe, essentially?

[Defeatist Elitist]

Planets in starwars are defined by one major feature, like deserts and forests. That alone makes it bs. Anywho, how's it going, Death?

Nice try Pheonix, but you can't ignore logic and Science when it's inconvenient and then suddenly grab one point out of 100 when it might perhaps support your shaky claims.

[Florete]

Alright then. Biblical fallacies ahoy!

First off, no-one in their right mind still thinks the world is 6000 years old. It's generally accepted to be about 5 Billion years old.

Now, the Great Flood (or the Deluge, or whatever):

There is no fossil record of any time in this planet's history when every single modern species was wiped out by a flood. In fact, in the history of life, there has never been a planet wide flooding. And keep in mind, it claims that humans existed in this time (they were actually the cause of the flood). Great Flood is at best a metaphor. ie. It never happened. It *likely* was pulled from the myths of other religions or cultures, most likely the Epic of Gilgamesh or some earlier Sumerian texts.

Next up, I'll ask you a few questions to see what I do or don't want to go into...

Basically, what from the Bible do you believe?

Do you believe that God created all creatures as they are?

Do you believe in Adam and Eve?

What do you believe, essentially?

I had always had a tough time believing the story of Noah anyway.

Do I believe God created all creatures as they are? Really, I'm not sure. Evolution and God both sound equally likely to me. But where did we come from anyway?

I have no reason to believe Adam and Eve weren't real since I've never been told who the first humans were otherwise.

Didn't I pretty much say I don't know what to believe? Christianity has been drilled into me all my life. When I turned away from it, I got my ass handed to me, like a slap in the face from God saying "What's wrong with you!?" Ever since then, I've attempted to take a middle road and it generally works out quite nicely.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[lolDeath]

Planets in starwars are defined by one major feature, like deserts and forests. That alone makes it bs. Anywho, how's it going, Death?

Who knows, maybe science is completely incorrect! That is one of the many cards religious people pull, why not pull it for Star Wars?

I don't know. I think if there really existed substantial evidence that proved there was zero possibility of any God possibly existing, people would have been sensible enough to stop believing. That's my opinion anywho.

I'll restate this, it can't be proven to 100%, and nothing in this universe and history can be, it's the way reality works. Using that to justify your beliefs is, like I said, like believing in Harry Potter or Star Wars, worthy of being thrown into a mental institution imo. Do you have any idea how stupid religion sounds to a person with sense? "Okay so this guy, we'll call him God, magically made everything. He made our planet too dude, and us, and if we listen to him we will live forever in a paradise. So what if nothing in the universe he created even supports his existence? We believe!"

You can not prove that you are alive, awake, human, that you have skin, that your family is alive, that you are not Jesus Christ, and believe me I could go on for a week straight.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I had always had a tough time believing the story of Noah anyway.

Do I believe God created all creatures as they are? Really, I'm not sure. Evolution and God both sound equally likely to me. But where did we come from anyway?

Well, evolution is definitely true, as we in fact have seen it occur. Fossil records also show slow, evolving progress from species to species.

[Florete]

I'll restate this, it can't be proven to 100%, and nothing in this universe and history can be, it's the way reality works. Using that to justify your beliefs is, like I said, like believing in Harry Potter or Star Wars, worthy of being thrown into a mental institution imo. Do you have any idea how stupid religion sounds to a person with sense? "Okay so this guy, we'll call him God, magically made everything. He made our planet too dude, and us, and if we listen to him we will live forever in a paradise. So what if nothing in the universe he created even supports his existence? We believe!"

You can not prove that you are alive, awake, human, that you have skin, that your family is alive, that you are not Jesus Christ, and believe me I could go on for a week straight.

I'm sure you could go on and on, but all you said is that no one should believe anything because it might not be real. People have to believe in something. We can't go through our lives disagreeing with everything.

[Phoenix Wright]

Some things are so ridiculous that even arguing against them would sully us? :P

Oh, and why the religion hasn't died out is the same reason some people still believe that Blacks are inhuman, dinosaurs roamed the earth 2000 years ago, and that homosexuals are evil. Some people refuse to listen to evidence of the contrary.

Honestly, I don't see a point to making a little joke about people who are religious.

Religion is there for an entirely different reason. I don't know how many times I've said it.

Who really believes dinosaurs roamed the earth 2,000 years ago? XD. Those people must have no common sense at all.

Being blinded [by faith], and having intelligence are obviously extremely different.

---------

I need no arguments for the these next statements, it is my opinion, which will not change.

--The Bible: Not laws, if laws, we would be arrested. The lessons stated in the Bible are meant to be guidelines to teach people how to live before their new life in Heaven begins.

The reason why the peace brought here will not be boring is: Angels are servants to God, our Holy Father. We may become guardian angels, which look over every person. Even non-believers. Why does everyone get one? Simple, to be kept safe when something happens, but it isn't quite our time to die.

--God: To believe or not to believe? That is the question.

--Satan: Opposite of God? Perhaps not. He is a being of trickery, deceit, and eternal damnation. Ruler of the Lake of Fire because he wanted what God was, a ruler. Couldn't you say God gave him what he wanted, but at a price he did not expect...or did he want it?

--Angels: Beings without human bodies. Take a form of a body when coming to earth, not that any of them are shown anymore. We become spirits. I do not know if we become our soul, or entirely different all together, but they invisible to the impure.

--Heaven and Hell:Your ultimate gift, or the eternal damnation? Which will you choose?

-Heaven: A place of complete peace. The "New Jerusalem," outside being the "dogs" or received punishment.

-Hell: An eternal place of suffering. Believed to be a place where you die over and over again. No remorse from anyone. Earth bodies are the beings here.

--Judgment: Think of it as a jury of one, with the jury consisting of God. God is also the Judge. While you, the person, is the defendant. Depending on life-lived (how you lived your life) you will receive your sentence, or you will be set free.

------------------------------------------------

Science is great. My favorite subject really. Only one I DON'T hate....besides English.

For me, science STRENGTHENS my faith. He challenges me! "There is this factor, will you still believe I am here?"

"Yes God."

Science is meant to give you an understanding of how our WORLD and universe work, not Heaven and hell.

[YokaiKnight]

I have no reason to believe Adam and Eve weren't real since I've never been told who the first humans were otherwise.

It's tough to know who the first were, but a study I'm too lazy to link to concluded that the genes of everyone living can be traced to six people.

Didn't I pretty much say I don't know what to believe? Christianity has been drilled into me all my life. When I turned away from it, I got my ass handed to me, like a slap in the face from God saying "What's wrong with you!?" Ever since then, I've attempted to take a middle road and it generally works out quite nicely.

One ass-handing was all it took to make you give up? ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH

[lolDeath]

I'm sure you could go on and on, but all you said is that no one should believe anything because it might not be real. People have to believe in something. We can't go through our lives disagreeing with everything.

You completely missed my point and it's starting to bug me, so if I sound heated please try to ignore it.

What I just said was not "LOL BELIEVE NOTHING", it was that it's stupid to believe what has 0 scientific support as opposed to what has. It's living in a fantasy because it makes it easier to accept reality for some, other people just don't know any better.

Ocelot, I should bake you a cookie I like your kind of Christians so much. Not quite there but starting to see. ;)

Also, I was asked to inform you that Revan is showering, I guess so you can hold off for 10 minutes and he doesn't have to spend half an hour on one reply.

[Florete]

You completely missed my point and it's starting to bug me, so if I sound heated please try to ignore it.

What I just said was not "LOL BELIEVE NOTHING", it was that it's stupid to believe what has 0 scientific support as opposed to what has. It's living in a fantasy because it makes it easier to accept reality for some, other people just don't know any better.

Ocelot, I should bake you a cookie I like your kind of Christians so much. Not quite there but starting to see. ;)

Also, I was asked to inform you that Revan is showering, I guess so you can hold off for 10 minutes and he doesn't have to spend half an hour on one reply.

I'll make this short then. The bolded part; That sounds pretty good to me. You're pretty much saying religious people are stupid, but ignorance is bliss, right? Being religious makes people happy and makes living easier. Sounds like a good enough reason to me.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I'll make this short then. The bolded part; That sounds pretty good to me. You're pretty much saying religious people are stupid, but ignorance is bliss, right? Being religious makes people happy and makes living easier. Sounds like a good enough reason to me.

Just first of all, I don't think Religious people are stupid. Some people will NATURALLY have faith, others won't regardless of intelligence, just as some have addictive personalities, some don't. Some people are left brained, some people are right brained, etc.

Now, they say ignorance is bliss, and it could be for a time. But eventually your ignorance will hurt you, as it hurt the innocent people burned for being witches, or the homosexuals who were punished. There are other things too, as a healthy knowledge of Science can benefit you in crazy ways.

I'll tell you something right now. Being an atheist means that I have to live my whole life *knowing* that the thing I fear most of all will happen to me. It is un escapable. But not knowing that wouldn't stop it, and I'd rather know something that frightens me then not know it.

[Phoenix Wright]

You completely missed my point and it's starting to bug me, so if I sound heated please try to ignore it.

What I just said was not "LOL BELIEVE NOTHING", it was that it's stupid to believe what has 0 scientific support as opposed to what has. It's living in a fantasy because it makes it easier to accept reality for some, other people just don't know any better.

Ocelot, I should bake you a cookie I like your kind of Christians so much. Not quite there but starting to see. ;)

Also, I was asked to inform you that Revan is showering, I guess so you can hold off for 10 minutes and he doesn't have to spend half an hour on one reply.

*eats hot cookie* Damn, good and hot!.

I will also bold that! Different reason though.

Hm, you know you just contradicted yourself right? Earlier, you say religion and faithful people usually do not care for reality, now you say we believe to hide ourselves from fear? We believe in the illogical to make up our fantasy land? We only care for what's not there, but we hate what is there?

Hm, the longer you'll be around me and Blue Fox of Water (Matt), those opinions will change, even if a little.

I'll tell you now: The ones who you talk about, the ones you despise so, the reason why they are not open to reason is because...they are afraid.

"Oh no...facts...I'll just ignore them. Pretending they don't exist will help my faith." That is what they think. I admit I thought like that when I was a little younger. Now I embrace facts.

Ones who are afraid aren't really friends with the Lord Almighty, they are pretenders. They think God will shower them with joy, He will not. Not until they prove themselves. Not until I prove myself. God wants you to believe, but He also wants a healthy relationship. Not faith alone.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Citrusman

[Defeatist Elitist]

*eats hot cookie* Damn, good and hot!.

I will also bold that! Different reason though.

Hm, you know you just contradicted yourself right? Earlier, you say religion and faithful people usually do not care for reality, now you say we believe to hide ourselves from fear? We believe in the illogical to make up our fantasy land? We only care for what's not there, but we hate what is there?

Hm, the longer you'll be around me and Blue Fox of Water (Matt), those opinions will change, even a little.

I'll tell you now: The ones who you talk about, the ones you despise so, the reason why they are not open to reason is because...they are afraid.

"Oh no...facts...I'll just ignore them. Pretending they don't exist will help my faith." That is what they think. I admit I thought like that when I was a little younger. Now I embrace facts.

Ones who are afraid aren't really friends with the Lord Almighty, they are pretenders. They think God will shower them with joy, He will not. Not until they prove themselves. Not until I prove myself. God wants you to believe, but He also wants a healthy relationship. Not faith alone.

So, in your opinion, if I only act in the best interest of my fellow man, would I still go to heaven regardless of me being an atheist?

Just posing the question to you...

[Florete]

I'll tell you something right now. Being an atheist means that I have to live my whole life *knowing* that the thing I fear most of all will happen to me. It is un escapable. But not knowing that wouldn't stop it, and I'd rather know something that frightens me then not know it.

If that's what being an Atheist means, screw Atheism. I'd rather be at peace knowing what's going to happen to me, not living in fear.

[Phoenix Wright]

So, in your opinion, if I only act in the best interest of my fellow man, would I still go to heaven regardless of me being an atheist?

Just posing the question to you...

It really depends. Bottom line is: (This isn't yelling, just a heads up. They are all gonna be capital letters)

ONE NEEDS A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. ONE NEEDS FAITH IN HIM. ONE NEEDS TO FOLLOW HIM.

The middle sentence is where you would REALLY fall out [from the question you asked]. You need to believe also.

Though after all that, I am sorry to tell you that I have no answer. I am not God, and I will not judge you. It would be wrong and very imprudent of me to do so.