Religion.

[Magical CC]

Bad stuff happens, it's not God's fault it's ours.

Yes, that's right.

Good stuff happens, it's the cause of ours doing or because of God?

[Phoenix]

Yes, that's right.

Good stuff happens, it's the cause of ours doing or because of God?

Bita both... You can blame everything good on God if you'll go that far, but it's not like God doesn't let us have our do the right thing moments.

[Magical CC]

Bita both... You can blame everything good on God if you'll go that far, but it's not like God doesn't let us have our do the right thing moments.

I just ask. Anyway, thanks for your answer.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Sol

[Esau of Isaac]

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the greater good? How about a long journey? A friggin great plan? Anything? Why does a God have to humor the modern world's standard of Good? It's not like they even know what that is. It doesn't have any real wait against the existence of God. Bad stuff happens, it's not God's fault it's ours. Get over it. IF you want to end all wars just kill ever single person who opposes peace. If you want evidence against God, wait til we all die out. IF you want to prove it now, don't go on about God being required to fix our problems. That's insanity. God fixing things outright won't fix it indefinitely and that should be obvious.

You're completely mixing up my arguments, Phoenix. He cannot hurt others if he is omnibenevolent, which he is attributed with in the Bible. He can't make imperfect things if he's perfect, because that would mean that he is not perfect. You're mingling the two of these points.

And no, not all bad stuff can be attributed to man, even if we look at the Bible's words. God himself says that he creates evil. He lets it proliferate after he's made it, for why I don't know. Were this same God not attributed with omnibenevolence, I would assume it some sort of cosmic boredom, but then that would necessitate the existence of some kind of motley band of heroes to defeat him and restore peace to the universe

[Phoenix]

You're completely mixing up my arguments, Phoenix. He cannot hurt others if he is omnibenevolent, which he is attributed with in the Bible. He can't make imperfect things if he's perfect, because that would mean that he is not perfect. You're mingling the two of these points.

And no, not all bad stuff can be attributed to man, even if we look at the Bible's words. God himself says that he creates evil. He lets it proliferate after he's made it, for why I don't know. Were this same God not attributed with omnibenevolence, I would assume it some sort of cosmic boredom, but then that would necessitate the existence of some kind of motley band of heroes to defeat him and restore peace to the universe

Well that is totally ignoring some of what I said earlier but I can't do anything but post the answers to the questions and hope they get read eventually. Then I must try to write them so they are not misread which is virtually impossible in the end.

God can hurt anyone in perfection if the eventual goal is perfect. Have you ever heard of growing pains? Well they may not hurt as bad as a sword in the gut but it is similar none the less. People seem to think God can't drag us through the mud. It's not like your eternal reward for following God won't far and away make up for whatever happened in physical life. If it didn't, people probably wouldn't go through that much suffering. I know this about human beings from personal experience. Humans learn the best when they are in deep and painful trials. If that's the best way for God to get his points across so be it. People are going to suffer in life regardless of whether or not God's causing it to happen, at least they should be aided in the long run by said suffering. Omnibenevolence. That word doesn't equal "keep babying mankind".

I really wish people would shut up with the imperfection argument. It's already a dead horse. To create anything requires imperfection. That's the way it is. You can't make anything without something else going into it. If something is apart of something else and makes it whole and perfect, than it of and by itself is imperfect. If it is imperfect then that means during the creation process something imperfect would have had to exist. If that's over your head or something I'm sorry, but it's not rocket science it's just the universe as we know it.

The Phoenix growith bored with consistent arguments that he hasth already smitith. The Phoenix wishes he was able to come into the minds of these who stand against him and find where their faith lies, then he can grab his philisophical prowess and demolish it. The Phoenix then would have no enemies left, just friends, family, and pretty girls :P

[Esau of Isaac]

God can hurt anyone in perfection if the eventual goal is perfect. Have you ever heard of growing pains? Well they may not hurt as bad as a sword in the gut but it is similar none the less. People seem to think God can't drag us through the mud.

Wow. I seriously just got done differentiating the two terms for you, and you again misunderstand. You're astounding.

IF GOD IS PERFECT, NOTHING IMPERFECT CAN COME FROM IT. ARE YOU CONTESTING THIS FACT, OR DO YOU ACCEPT IT? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HURTING OTHERS, IT HAS TO DO WITH BRINGING ABOUT ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECTION.

It's not like your eternal reward for following God won't far and away make up for whatever happened in physical life. If it didn't, people probably wouldn't go through that much suffering. I know this about human beings from personal experience. Humans learn the best when they are in deep and painful trials. If that's the best way for God to get his points across so be it. People are going to suffer in life regardless of whether or not God's causing it to happen, at least they should be aided in the long run by said suffering.

This could have been easily done by God such that individuals would not have to suffer at all. And no, I don't find any aid in utter suffering, and I don't think anyone else does either. Pointless pain and suffering, sometimes from his own fingertips, is ridiculous when the individual in question could fix it instantly with no problems whatsoever.

Omnibenevolence. That word doesn't equal "keep babying mankind".

No, it equals being endlessly benevolent. Meaning the one labeled with the term cannot be merciless and harm others. Which God has itself admitted to being in the Bible.

[Phoenix]

^ Huh? Dammit! I got misread again :(

Quote #1 Perfection comes from imperfection. I'm not going to delve into "What is God?" thing right now, cause I wouldn't know where to start anyway. I will say this again though. Perfection comes from imperfection. Perfect things come from imperfect things all thrown neatly together. That's how cars are made, that's how buildings are put up, that's where hot chicks come from. Can God do certain things instantly? Sure, I won't put that past'em. Would it be wise to do so? Not in the slightest. This will be ranted about soon...

Quote #2 Why does everybody just want to take the easy way out? You want God to just fix all your problems? That is sheer insanity on God's part. If I got into debt from gambling or something like that and God just came in and kept paying people off for me, I would not learn to break the addiction, I have to suffer the horrible effects and life destroying consequences of the addiction before I can come out of it. That's how God works with people. Pain is the only thing that get's people's attention, and sadly, we were already warned of what would happen to us if we didn't listen to God. Don't blame God for the consequences of our own actions, and don't expect God to bail your ass out before you hit rock bottom.

Quote #3 God isn't merciless, and harming others or allowing it does help them in the scheme of things. I suffer and grow and become better for the experience, where if I hadn't, I'd still be pride ridden in certain things. God has allowed prophets and his son to perform miracles left and right, he showed versions of himself to different peoples and most of them just rejected him in the end, only those brought through normally insurrmountable amounts of pain and suffering ever really made any real progress and accepted his word. It's not all about the physical life, it's about the end result. The ones that God helped bring through tribulation in love and mercy are the ones who reached the end result and they will be perfect. You think the world is messed up now and that there's no God because he's not fixing it? I'd bet he's holding this sinking ship afloat with his bare hands.

[Esau of Isaac]

^ Huh? Dammit! I got misread again :(

Quote #1 Perfection comes from imperfection.

Look, I'm not going to humor you by delving into mystical bullshit; by definition, a perfect being cannot do imperfect things, or be made of imperfection. It's impossible by what perfect is.

It's one of the reasons why God can't be perfect.

I'm not going to delve into "What is God?" thing right now, cause I wouldn't know where to start anyway. I will say this again though. Perfection comes from imperfection. Perfect things come from imperfect things all thrown neatly together. That's how cars are made, that's how buildings are put up, that's where hot chicks come from. Can God do certain things instantly? Sure, I won't put that past'em. Would it be wise to do so? Not in the slightest. This will be ranted about soon...

Perfection cannot come from imperfection, because that would make it imperfect. By definition.

Quote #2 Why does everybody just want to take the easy way out? You want God to just fix all your problems? That is sheer insanity on God's part. If I got into debt from gambling or something like that and God just came in and kept paying people off for me, I would not learn to break the addiction, I have to suffer the horrible effects and life destroying consequences of the addiction before I can come out of it.

You're missing the fucking point; if God were an omnibenevolent and perfect being, you would never get into any form of debt in the first place, because you would not be imperfect.

That's how God works with people. Pain is the only thing that get's people's attention, and sadly, we were already warned of what would happen to us if we didn't listen to God. Don't blame God for the consequences of our own actions, and don't expect God to bail your ass out before you hit rock bottom.

I'm going to blame God for his actions in the Bible, because all of the bullshit and problems of the world stemmed from his idea that putting a tree that endows one with knowledge in a garden where a notorious trickster and two completely ignorant beings lived. A borderline retarded person could realize what would occur, and this is infinitely different from God, who was completely aware of what would occur and let the shit happen anyways, not to mention following through with his absurd and completely unfair punishment.

Quote #3 God isn't merciless, and harming others or allowing it does help them in the scheme of things.

So even when God says "I'm merciless", he's not being merciless?

Wow.

I suffer and grow and become better for the experience, where if I hadn't, I'd still be pride ridden in certain things. God has allowed prophets and his son to perform miracles left and right, he showed versions of himself to different peoples and most of them just rejected him in the end, only those brought through normally insurrmountable amounts of pain and suffering ever really made any real progress and accepted his word. It's not all about the physical life, it's about the end result. The ones that God helped bring through tribulation in love and mercy are the ones who reached the end result and they will be perfect.

And this doesn't make sense, because if God were omnipotent, he could make everyone come to believe in him and follow the correct path, even in pain, and always come out better in the end; that doesn't happen, and people commonly don't have a good ending in the Bible. And that's completely inexcusable in the case of a being that could fix it all.

You think the world is messed up now and that there's no God because he's not fixing it? I'd bet he's holding this sinking ship afloat with his bare hands.

I'd bet that if your God were actually extant and had any say in our world, the planet Earth would be a fucking pile of ash right now.

[Phoenix Wright]

Your vision of God is way off Esau.

Supply with proof that perfect cannot create imperfect.

If God solved EVERYTHING, what would be the point of free will? The will not to believe in Him is bestowed upon everyone.

If God created us to be perfect, what would be the point of believing in Him? What would be the point of living?

If God had not let that notorious trickster in, we may still be living there today. The Garden of Eden is a real place IIRC. If Satan was not there, where was God going to put our free will? We wouldn't have free will if Satan was not a being. Should we thank Satan?

[Zeldafreak007]

Me, probably the only damn Hindu on this board.

[Der Kommissar]

If God solved EVERYTHING, what would be the point of free will?

Omnipotence, by definition, is the ability to do whatever you will. If an omnipotent being willed it, he could preserve free will and solve mortal woes. Unwillingness or inability to do this implies either malice or impotence. The former isn't really a problem for the Abrahamic god, who is regularly a dick, prominently in the Old Testament (see: his treatment of Job, his okaying of destroying tribes and taking their young, unspoiled women for his favored while also instructing said favored to kill the rest, etc.).

If God created us to be perfect, what would be the point of believing in Him? What would be the point of living?

This question implies that life has or is in need of a higher purpose. Provide evidence for your assertion.

The will not to believe in Him is bestowed upon everyone.

...and if you choose such a course of action, you are condemned to an eternity of torture. That provides lip service to "free will" at best.

If God had not let that notorious trickster in, we may still be living there today.

Going by the descriptions of the hypothetical garden, that would be a preferrable state, free of man's woes.

The Garden of Eden is a real place IIRC.

Uh, no.

If Satan was not there, where was God going to put our free will?

Adam and Eve had the choice whether or not to obey God regardless of whether or not they were tempted. This is a moot point anyway, since Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil and could hardly be expected to know any better. It's roughly equivilent to punishing a baby for defacating in its diaper.

We wouldn't have free will if Satan was not a being. Should we thank Satan?

You don't need to be tempted to have a choice. I don't need someone to tempt me to be able to choose between drinking a Pepsi and drinking a glass of orange juice. You wouldn't thank Satan even if he did exist, because he tempted Eve solely to be a douchebag.

[Judge Judy]

Provide evidence for your assertion.

Okay firslty there is no evidence. So religion its about faith something you will never understand. Those who follow religion follow it purely on faith. So no evidence lol

[Phoenix Wright]

This question implies that life has or is in need of a higher purpose. Provide evidence for your assertion.

Of course. Though, since you are arguing with me, you won't call it evidence.

The point of us being here? Why is water needed for us to survive? The answer is that water JUST IS. There IS no reason for it. In the billions upon billions of years we have lived (not as people, as organisms) we could have adapted to an environment that has no water, correct? What is the science behind water being the basis of life?

Thus, my argument. God IS needed for people to live. Otherwise, we have no purpose. No purpose to do what is right, no purpose to do ANYTHING. How did we adapt to be so different from any other animal? A force powerful enough to start and end it is the meaning behind life.

...and if you choose such a course of action, you are condemned to an eternity of torture. That provides lip service to "free will" at best.

Might I add that not all free will [choices] are the right choices. ;)

Besides, were there Atheists back then? I have no knowledge of that either. I think it's fair to say I have NO IDEA what will happen to you, I have NO idea what will happen to me either. It isn't fair of me to judge you or anyone else because it is wrong of ME to do so, not Him. He states WE SHOULD NEVER JUDGE, yet we do anyway. It creates prejudice. Sad really.

Going by the descriptions of the hypothetical garden, that would be a preferrable state, free of man's woes.

Thus, we have no choice to do right or wrong. Only right. WHERE DOES FREE WILL COME IN? Maybe God WANTED them to eat the fruit...

Uh, no.

Lol, I believe there is an actual garden named the Garden of Eden. Just to be clear for you, I was not talking about THE Garden of Eden.

Adam and Eve had the choice whether or not to obey God regardless of whether or not they were tempted. This is a moot point anyway, since Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil and could hardly be expected to know any better. It's roughly equivalent to punishing a baby for defalcating in its diaper.

But then Adam and Eve DID NOT HAVE FREE WILL. Right? The Garden of Eden doesn't grant us free will, because we are away from evil. So God gave them an order they did not follow. God told them they would gain the understanding of evil.

Notice in my arguments I'm not saying free will is a good thing, nor I am I saying it is a bad thing.

You don't need to be tempted to have a choice. I don't need someone to tempt me to be able to choose between drinking a Pepsi and drinking a glass of orange juice. You wouldn't thank Satan even if he did exist, because he tempted Eve solely to be a douche bag.

I agree completely. Thanks for proving my point. ;) Edited December 7, 2008 by Citrusman

[Esau of Isaac]

Your vision of God is way off Esau.

Seeing as how God's existence is totally unverified, I'd say my view is about as accurate as your own. And in the idea of the Bible's God, I'm pretty damn sure I've got it down perfectly.

Supply with proof that perfect cannot create imperfect.

If something is perfect, it cannot do something imperfect; this is fucking obvious, based on the fact that perfect is the lack of imperfections. Therefore, it cannot create something imperfect, because that could be performing an action that is not purely perfect.

If God solved EVERYTHING, what would be the point of free will? The will not to believe in Him is bestowed upon everyone.

I have already answered this question so many damn times. First, I contest that people have free will, and second, if God were really God, could create a world in which individuals had free will and still followed him. He was certainly capable of doing the opposite in your eyes, yes?

If God created us to be perfect, what would be the point of believing in Him? What would be the point of living?

What's the point of living now? Why wouldn't this apply if we were perfect?

Are you arguing that perfection is not preferable to imperfection? Are you arguing that you're therefore better than God?

If God had not let that notorious trickster in, we may still be living there today.

...Yes, exactly. And if God had been benevolent, he wouldn't have removed man from there.

The Garden of Eden is a real place IIRC. If Satan was not there, where was God going to put our free will?

...What? How would God be incapable of giving people free will if Satan is there? Are you arguing that God does not have the ability to do whatever he wants, contrary to the Bible's word?

We wouldn't have free will if Satan was not a being. Should we thank Satan?

Why wouldn't we? Could God not give us free will anyways?

[Judge Judy]

I have already answered this question so many damn times. First, I contest that people have free will, and second, if God were really God, could create a world in which individuals had free will and still followed him. He was certainly capable of doing the opposite in your eyes, yes?

Ah well if you feel as though you have answered this question quite so many times there is no need to repeat yourself. Shouldn't you have realised by now, your argument is kinda pointless since no member will be open minded to take in account what you have to say, (which I may add I do agree to some extent with what you have to say) especially when it comes to debates about religion. Just saying...no need to trouble yourself XD

My point is these types of debates won't get anywhere. Each side a way too stubborn.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Mad Sage

[Esau of Isaac]

Of course. Though, since you are arguing with me, you won't call it evidence.

I am going to guess that you will use poorly strung-together arguments with a vague misunderstanding of science in general to attempt to back up your point. Let's see:

The point of us being here? Why is water needed for us to survive? The answer is that water JUST IS. There IS no reason for it.

There are reasons why water exists, but if you're asking for an overarching reasoning behind why everything exists, outright intending for something along the lines of a Creator, you're going to end up disappointed.

In the billions upon billions of years we have lived (not as people, as organisms) we could have adapted to an environment that has no water, correct? What is the science behind water being the basis of life?

Because of its basic properties. There are several reasons, but it's just all-around pretty useful in terms of life. It naturally occurs in all three physical forms, and it serves well by interacting to a greater degree with other elements.

Thus, my argument. God IS needed for people to live. Otherwise, we have no purpose. No purpose to do what is right, no purpose to do ANYTHING.

That's a hollow argument. Something doesn't need to have a purpose from a conscious being to exist.

How did we adapt to be so different from any other animal? A force powerful enough to start and end it is the meaning behind life.

Not really. Our intelligence was the result of a different diet after humanity gained a straighter walking gait, which arose because of a higher survivability in individuals with a greater sight range, which came to be invaluable after a more forested environment was lost.

We're not so different from other animals aside from our intelligence; it's pretty clear to see where we came from, and we're not incredibly remarkable in other areas. We're not very fast, we're not very strong, etc.

Might I add that not all free will [choices] are the right choices.

Then why offer free will (which I again contest to exist) if anything but the exact choices God wants will lead to an eternity of torture?

Besides, were there Atheists back then? I have no knowledge of that either. I think it's fair to say I have NO IDEA what will happen to you, I have NO idea what will happen to me either. It isn't fair of me to judge you or anyone else because it is wrong of ME to do so, not Him. He states WE SHOULD NEVER JUDGE, yet we do anyway. It creates prejudice. Sad really.

And why can't we extend this further. Why are you unsure (as you should be) of our fate, when the Bible is not at all evasive on the end of individuals that don't readily accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Thus, we have no choice to do right or wrong. Only right. WHERE DOES FREE WILL COME IN? Maybe God WANTED them to eat the fruit...

Which means that God wanted them to become capable of evil, and encouraged it, then punished them on purpose.

Keep going; digging wholes for your argument seems to be doing you well.

Lol, I believe there is an actual garden named the Garden of Eden. Just to be clear for you, I was not talking about THE Garden of Eden.

Then why mention it?

But then Adam and Eve DID NOT HAVE FREE WILL. Right? The Garden of Eden doesn't grant us free will, because we are away from evil. So God gave them an order they did not follow. God told them they would gain the understanding of evil.

No he didn't. He said if they partake of the apple, they will end up dead; he mentioned nothing of good or evil, and it would be lost on Adam and Eve who were supposed to be completely ignorant of everything.

Ah well if you feel as though you have answered this question quite so many times there is no need to repeat yourself. Shouldn't you have realised by now, your argument is kinda pointless since no member will be open minded to take in account what you have to say, (which I may add I do agree to some extent with what you have to say) especially when it comes to debates about religion. Just saying...no need to trouble yourself XD

I feel the need to repeat myself, I put forth these arguments myself some time ago.

My point is these types of debates won't get anywhere. Each side a way too stubborn.

Most debates are stubborn. The point is not to persuade the opponent, it's to persuade the onlookers.

[Phoenix Wright]

Seeing as how God's existence is totally unverified, I'd say my view is about as accurate as your own. And in the idea of the Bible's God, I'm pretty damn sure I've got it down perfectly.

You're right, I'm sorry.

Though, you just contradicted yourself. :P

If something is perfect, it cannot do something imperfect; this is fucking obvious, based on the fact that perfect is the lack of imperfections. Therefore, it cannot create something imperfect, because that could be performing an action that is not purely perfect.

If something is perfect, why can their perfections be limited? How can YOU say a perfect being CANNOT do something? You obviously have no idea what a perfect being is. You can do whatever you want cancha? Why can't a perfect being? Are you saying imperfect beings have more rights than a perfect being?

I have already answered this question so many damn times. First, I contest that people have free will, and second, if God were really God, could create a world in which individuals had free will and still followed him. He was certainly capable of doing the opposite in your eyes, yes?

Absolutely. But you are stuck in the past, He already chose NOT to do so.

What's the point of living now? Why wouldn't this apply if we were perfect?

Are you arguing that perfection is not preferable to imperfection? Are you arguing that you're therefore better than God?

You read it wrong, or I typed it to say something I didn't.

There would be no point in believing in Him if WE ALREADY KNEW HE EXISTED. That is what I meant. If we knew He existed, there would be no point to bring us into the world in the first place.

...Yes, exactly. And if God had been benevolent, he wouldn't have removed man from there.

Are you a father? No (I don't think so anyway). Do something wrong, you get punished. He won't reward us for a bad choice.

...What? How would God be incapable of giving people free will if Satan is there? Are you arguing that God does not have the ability to do whatever he wants, contrary to the Bible's word?

UGH, Adam and Eve didn't have free will until Satan came along, correct? They KNEW God existed, so they didn't have a choice to believe or not. Free will has both evil and good in it. Satan completed the puzzle, which we didn't want to happen.

Why wouldn't we? Could God not give us free will anyways?

Free will to DO WHAT? God exists, so we don't have a choice to do anything. Now that we HAVE free will, we are not sure if He exists. Free will can be dangerous. /metaphor (kinda. XD)

[Phoenix Wright]

Every element appears in three forms. <_<

-----

I'm not a good arguer, if I knew better words, I could argue well. But I don't, so whatever.

Don't respond to my posts, it won't do you any good. I'm officially leaving this argument, for it is pointless.

Also, Don't ever think you won. You didn't.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Citrusman

[California Mountain Snake]

I'm not a good arguer, if I knew better words, I could argue well. But I don't, so whatever.

Don't respond to my posts, it won't do you any good. I'm officially leaving this argument, for it is pointless.

Also, Don't ever think you won. You didn't.

So you're saying everyone should take into account that beneath your rambling your ideas really do make sense, and those ideas should take precedence over those who can actually articulate their thoughts.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Black Knight

[Phoenix Wright]

So you're saying everyone should take into account that beneath your rambling your ideas really do make sense, and those ideas should take precedence over those who can actually articulate their thoughts.

No. Both sides rambled for one. Two, I don't a have a wide-range vocabulary. Third, I'm not a good debater in general, so get off my back and let me leave the damn topic.

[Esau of Isaac]

You're right, I'm sorry.

Though, you just contradicted yourself.

No I didn't.

If something is perfect, why can their perfections be limited? How can YOU say a perfect being CANNOT do something? You obviously have no idea what a perfect being is. You can do whatever you want cancha? Why can't a perfect being? Are you saying imperfect beings have more rights than a perfect being?

You are injuring me right now.

PERFECTION IS DEFINED AS THE LACK OF IMPERFECTIONS. BY DEFINITION OF WHAT A PERFECT BEING FUCKING IS, IT CAN DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT IS IMPERFECT. I'M SAYING IT CAN'T BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT PERFECTION IS DEFINED AS.

Absolutely. But you are stuck in the past, He already chose NOT to do so.

Which would make it not omnibenevolent. And thus disproving the notion that your God exists.

There would be no point in believing in Him if WE ALREADY KNEW HE EXISTED. That is what I meant. If we knew He existed, there would be no point to bring us into the world in the first place.

Elucidate. I fail to see why it would change in the slightest. Why should man live in the first place, in fact?

Are you a father? No (I don't think so anyway). Do something wrong, you get punished. He won't reward us for a bad choice.

No, I am not a father, and I don't plan on killing my children for simple mistakes.

Don't use that inane defense. If he were a good Father, he wouldn't blame his children for their ignorance, and simply fix the situation. If he were a good Father, he wouldn't banish them from his presence, never to return and walk among them. If he were a good Father, he wouldn't have killed all of the countless individuals he did.

UGH, Adam and Eve didn't have free will until Satan came along, correct?

I don't believe that they had free will afterward, so why would I make any distinction beforehand?

They KNEW God existed, so they didn't have a choice to believe or not.

And? This isn't the reason why they listened to the snake.

Free will has both evil and good in it. Satan completed the puzzle, which we didn't want to happen.

This has zero to do with free will. His appearance in no way altered Adam and Eve to give them free will.

Free will to DO WHAT? God exists, so we don't have a choice to do anything.

Where is the logic behind this? How would anyone lack the ability to do as they wish when God appears?

Now that we HAVE free will, we are not sure if He exists. Free will can be dangerous. /metaphor (kinda. XD)

That makes no sense. The situation wouldn't change at all.

This is like saying no one has the free will to believe the world is flat.

Every element appears in three forms.

...

...And?

Don't respond to my posts, it won't do you any good. I'm officially leaving this argument, for it is pointless.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Also, Don't ever think you won. You didn't.

I believe I will be purposely contrary and consider I have won our argument.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Esau of Isaac

[California Mountain Snake]

No. Both sides rambled for one. Two, I don't a have a wide-range vocabulary. Third, I'm not a good debater in general, so get off my back and let me leave the damn topic.

Hello again.

[Phoenix]

Holy Fire nests! I'm getting sick and tired of hearing such an overwhelming amount of illogical bs, and from those claiming to use it no less! I have a feeling Believers are dealing with more than just some supposedly logical standpoint. Some of what I'm reading is insane! Pretty much responses that ignore at least half of what's replied to! I'll get specific later, I'm too tired right now as I am recovering from a Persona 3 game clear. Whew. Anyway, I'm starting to wonder if trying to debate any of this is going to benefit us anymore seeing as how noone is listening to what is really being said(Myself excluded otherwise I wouldn't notice this repeated crap).

Also, this does God exist argument is boring, let's start smashing doctrines and throwing real common sense at each other. :P

[Judge Judy]

Also, this does God exist argument is boring, let's start smashing doctrines and throwing real common sense at each other. :P

Why don't you go first?

[Esau of Isaac]

Holy Fire nests! I'm getting sick and tired of hearing such an overwhelming amount of illogical bs,

OH THE IRONY PHOENIX PLEASE SPARE ME IT HURTS

Believers are dealing with more than just some supposedly logical standpoint. Some of what I'm reading is insane! Pretty much responses that ignore at least half of what's replied to!

I responded to each and every point you brought up, and I believe I satisfactorily countered all of them with a fair amount of reasoning and logic.

I'll get specific later, I'm too tired right now as I am recovering from a Persona 3 game clear. Whew. Anyway, I'm starting to wonder if trying to debate any of this is going to benefit us anymore seeing as how noone is listening to what is really being said(Myself excluded otherwise I wouldn't notice this repeated crap).

Oh I'm listening to what you're saying, I am just pointing out the areas I find wrong.